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Toulon Putter rant


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#1 cradd10

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:03 PM

got to roll the Toulon Indy a few times today.  Real nice putter with good feel.  Looked up the price and see for standard they Charge $399.  Ok, Steep but whatever.  They have 2 different CB versions.  They are price $460 for Moderate release.  and $500 for agressive release.  What??  You lost me with the $100 upcharge for different weight and grip.  I think $20 would be reasonable.

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#2 golfgirlrobin

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:10 PM

Scotty's DB are an extra $20, generally.  The $100 does seem awfully high.  

I know people like it, but I thought the build quality looked pretty poor for that kind of money.  


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#3 tinman

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 06:28 PM

Just get a Bettinardi & never look back.SS7 is still in the bag
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#4 misplacedtexan83

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 06:51 PM

The heads are total opposites when it comes to weight, so that probably changes the price..

Callaway Rogue SZ *9.0 w/ Aldila Xtorison Copper 60 S

Callaway Rogue SZ *13.5 w/ Project X Even flow 75 S

Callaway SZ Rogue SZ *18 w/ Project X Even flow 75 S

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#5 Thrillhouse

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 07:00 PM

Way of the world I guess, I'm still shocked by the $449 CAD for the evenrolls. I mean I game a circle t, so it's not the money that shocks me, it's more who is charging it.

I don't know if any of that makes sense lol.


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#6 dlygrisse

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 07:20 PM

I gamed a Scotty for 10 years. When I decided to go putter shopping pretty much everything was on the table. Just wanted to make the right decision and buy something that would stick in the bag for several years. I spent all winter rolling different putters and finally went for a $115 Odyssey as I putted the best with it.

I saw the Toulons the other day, rolled a few and didn't think much of them. Bettinnardi's do feel nice I just can't find one with the alignment aid I prefer. Small line top rail Anser style.
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#7 Shilgy

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:01 PM

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 June 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

Way of the world I guess, I'm still shocked by the $449 CAD for the evenrolls. I mean I game a circle t, so it's not the money that shocks me, it's more who is charging it.

I don't know if any of that makes sense lol.
So they have to earn the right to charge higher prices?
Are Camerons, Evnrolls, Betti sand Toulon high priced? Sure. If they're too high for someone they can get a good putter cheaper no doubt. I have used a few Camerons, a couple Betti's and now a Toulon that I have putted better than ever with. Get whatever you like and can afford is what I would suggest.
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#8 Thrillhouse

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:13 PM

View PostShilgy, on 19 June 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 June 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

Way of the world I guess, I'm still shocked by the $449 CAD for the evenrolls. I mean I game a circle t, so it's not the money that shocks me, it's more who is charging it.

I don't know if any of that makes sense lol.
So they have to earn the right to charge higher prices?
Are Camerons, Evnrolls, Betti sand Toulon high priced? Sure. If they're too high for someone they can get a good putter cheaper no doubt. I have used a few Camerons, a couple Betti's and now a Toulon that I have putted better than ever with. Get whatever you like and can afford is what I would suggest.

Nope, they have the right to charge whatever they want and I have the right to think what I want about it. With respect to the evenroll I saw a good putter for three times the price of the last putter they made before they went away for a few years, and I thought it was odd. With Cameron (and to a lesser extent bettinardi who also has a place in my collection) that's been the going rate for years and I understand the marketing. When someone else does it I sort of wonder ok, what is the value add over the $149 putter this company has been producing for years.

Market segmentation can be a risky strategy. Sure, if you can sell at every price point and capture more of the market then that's great, but in an attempt to capture more market share if you cheapen your brand you can lose the ability to charge a premium. Conversely if you don't have that brand recognition at the top end of the market and you try to enter it while selling a lower quality product at the same time people might not respond well to that.

It's the same thing that makes me think $75,000 (in Canada) for a relatively standard Audi A6 or Mercedes e350 is a reasonable price, but if Ford tried to jazz up a fusion with the same engine and accessories as those cars and charge the same price I'd be on a car forum asking why Ford just started charging 250% of the price for the same car.

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#9 Shilgy

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:18 PM

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 June 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 19 June 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 June 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

Way of the world I guess, I'm still shocked by the $449 CAD for the evenrolls. I mean I game a circle t, so it's not the money that shocks me, it's more who is charging it.

I don't know if any of that makes sense lol.
So they have to earn the right to charge higher prices?
Are Camerons, Evnrolls, Betti sand Toulon high priced? Sure. If they're too high for someone they can get a good putter cheaper no doubt. I have used a few Camerons, a couple Betti's and now a Toulon that I have putted better than ever with. Get whatever you like and can afford is what I would suggest.

Nope, they have the right to charge whatever they want and I have the right to think what I want about it. With respect to the evenroll I saw a good putter for three times the price of the last putter they made before they went away for a few years, and I thought it was odd. With Cameron (and to a lesser extent bettinardi who also has a place in my collection) that's been the going rate for years and I understand the marketing. When someone else does it I sort of wonder ok, what is the value add over the $149 putter this company has been producing for years.

Market segmentation can be a risky strategy. Sure, if you can sell at every price point and capture more of the market then that's great, but in an attempt to capture more market share if you cheapen your brand you can lose the ability to charge a premium. Conversely if you don't have that brand recognition at the top end of the market and you try to enter it while selling a lower quality product at the same time people might not respond well to that.

It's the same thing that makes me think $75,000 (in Canada) for a relatively standard Audi A6 or Mercedes e350 is a reasonable price, but if Ford tried to jazz up a fusion with the same engine and accessories as those cars and charge the same price I'd be on a car forum asking why Ford just started charging 250% of the price for the same car.
After rereading my post the intent may not have come across correctly so I apologize if it seemed harsher than intended. I agree with your logic but Toulon was brand new, did they ever have a $149 putter? Pretty sure not. And it's hard to start at a lower price point and then justify a higher price on the same name. Like your Ford example. Are you lumping them in with Callaway?
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#10 Thrillhouse

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:33 PM

View PostShilgy, on 19 June 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 June 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 19 June 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 June 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

Way of the world I guess, I'm still shocked by the $449 CAD for the evenrolls. I mean I game a circle t, so it's not the money that shocks me, it's more who is charging it.

I don't know if any of that makes sense lol.
So they have to earn the right to charge higher prices?
Are Camerons, Evnrolls, Betti sand Toulon high priced? Sure. If they're too high for someone they can get a good putter cheaper no doubt. I have used a few Camerons, a couple Betti's and now a Toulon that I have putted better than ever with. Get whatever you like and can afford is what I would suggest.

Nope, they have the right to charge whatever they want and I have the right to think what I want about it. With respect to the evenroll I saw a good putter for three times the price of the last putter they made before they went away for a few years, and I thought it was odd. With Cameron (and to a lesser extent bettinardi who also has a place in my collection) that's been the going rate for years and I understand the marketing. When someone else does it I sort of wonder ok, what is the value add over the $149 putter this company has been producing for years.

Market segmentation can be a risky strategy. Sure, if you can sell at every price point and capture more of the market then that's great, but in an attempt to capture more market share if you cheapen your brand you can lose the ability to charge a premium. Conversely if you don't have that brand recognition at the top end of the market and you try to enter it while selling a lower quality product at the same time people might not respond well to that.

It's the same thing that makes me think $75,000 (in Canada) for a relatively standard Audi A6 or Mercedes e350 is a reasonable price, but if Ford tried to jazz up a fusion with the same engine and accessories as those cars and charge the same price I'd be on a car forum asking why Ford just started charging 250% of the price for the same car.
After rereading my post the intent may not have come across correctly so I apologize if it seemed harsher than intended. I agree with your logic but Toulon was brand new, did they ever have a $149 putter? Pretty sure not. And it's hard to start at a lower price point and then justify a higher price on the same name. Like your Ford example. Are you lumping them in with Callaway?

No problem at all you know me I like the discussion, you didn't say anything you need to apologize for.

So Toulon to me, in the callaway/odyssey context, is there as an attempt to kind of get at the high end of the putter market. Which is fine, and odyssey has made some great high end putters over the years (I used the trihot for a while). But it is one of those things where in my head I'm going to think "that's callaway/odyssey's attempt to segment their brand to get at another part of the putter market.

One of the reasons why I think Scotty Cameron worked as well as it did for titleist in the 90s was that at that time titleist didn't really sell putters, and they did a great job of marketing them as "Scotty Cameron BY titleist", and not titleist putters made by this employee. He was this high end putter maker whose products the tour players loved (other part of the equation) who was making products that titleist was distributing. The whole thing felt very high end, very classy, it was awesome, I can't tell you how desperately 15 year old Thrillhouse wanted a terillium newport and how stoked I was when I got it.

Toulon kind of feels like Kia ma did when Taylormade was producing his stuff (great putters BTW). It's kind of like ok, callaway has a high end putter line again (like trihot, or like the blue milled callaway putters from before that), just like with Kia ma I was like hey, Taylormade has a high end putter line. Regardless of how much I liked them they never held the allure of Cameron for me (full disclosure, I am a Cameron fanboy, and I also really like bettinardi).

I actually think, from my perspective (interested to see if anyone agrees), I would view Toulon differently if callaway put some cash behind marketing it but presented it like a boutique putter brand, rather than an extension of the callaway line, with no connection to callaway at all. Kind of in a "callaway is backing this cool putter maker but they do their own thing" kind of way.


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#11 Shilgy

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:39 PM

Well Thrill, it was a boutique brand for over a year. Then Callaway bought them. I think they could have used another year or two to really get the brand rolling and get the name recognition up.
  So we really agree I think. :)
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#12 Jdavenp3

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:41 PM

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 June 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 19 June 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 June 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 19 June 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 June 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

Way of the world I guess, I'm still shocked by the $449 CAD for the evenrolls. I mean I game a circle t, so it's not the money that shocks me, it's more who is charging it.

I don't know if any of that makes sense lol.
So they have to earn the right to charge higher prices?
Are Camerons, Evnrolls, Betti sand Toulon high priced? Sure. If they're too high for someone they can get a good putter cheaper no doubt. I have used a few Camerons, a couple Betti's and now a Toulon that I have putted better than ever with. Get whatever you like and can afford is what I would suggest.

Nope, they have the right to charge whatever they want and I have the right to think what I want about it. With respect to the evenroll I saw a good putter for three times the price of the last putter they made before they went away for a few years, and I thought it was odd. With Cameron (and to a lesser extent bettinardi who also has a place in my collection) that's been the going rate for years and I understand the marketing. When someone else does it I sort of wonder ok, what is the value add over the $149 putter this company has been producing for years.

Market segmentation can be a risky strategy. Sure, if you can sell at every price point and capture more of the market then that's great, but in an attempt to capture more market share if you cheapen your brand you can lose the ability to charge a premium. Conversely if you don't have that brand recognition at the top end of the market and you try to enter it while selling a lower quality product at the same time people might not respond well to that.

It's the same thing that makes me think $75,000 (in Canada) for a relatively standard Audi A6 or Mercedes e350 is a reasonable price, but if Ford tried to jazz up a fusion with the same engine and accessories as those cars and charge the same price I'd be on a car forum asking why Ford just started charging 250% of the price for the same car.
After rereading my post the intent may not have come across correctly so I apologize if it seemed harsher than intended. I agree with your logic but Toulon was brand new, did they ever have a $149 putter? Pretty sure not. And it's hard to start at a lower price point and then justify a higher price on the same name. Like your Ford example. Are you lumping them in with Callaway?

No problem at all you know me I like the discussion, you didn't say anything you need to apologize for.

So Toulon to me, in the callaway/odyssey context, is there as an attempt to kind of get at the high end of the putter market. Which is fine, and odyssey has made some great high end putters over the years (I used the trihot for a while). But it is one of those things where in my head I'm going to think "that's callaway/odyssey's attempt to segment their brand to get at another part of the putter market.

One of the reasons why I think Scotty Cameron worked as well as it did for titleist in the 90s was that at that time titleist didn't really sell putters, and they did a great job of marketing them as "Scotty Cameron BY titleist", and not titleist putters made by this employee. He was this high end putter maker whose products the tour players loved (other part of the equation) who was making products that titleist was distributing. The whole thing felt very high end, very classy, it was awesome, I can't tell you how desperately 15 year old Thrillhouse wanted a terillium newport and how stoked I was when I got it.

Toulon kind of feels like Kia ma did when Taylormade was producing his stuff (great putters BTW). It's kind of like ok, callaway has a high end putter line again (like trihot, or like the blue milled callaway putters from before that), just like with Kia ma I was like hey, Taylormade has a high end putter line. Regardless of how much I liked them they never held the allure of Cameron for me (full disclosure, I am a Cameron fanboy, and I also really like bettinardi).

I actually think, from my perspective (interested to see if anyone agrees), I would view Toulon differently if callaway put some cash behind marketing it but presented it like a boutique putter brand, rather than an extension of the callaway line, with no connection to callaway at all. Kind of in a "callaway is backing this cool putter maker but they do their own thing" kind of way.

I agree with a lot of what you say. I think that Callaway/Odyssey is going to put a lot of eggs in the Garage/PT Customs basket (god I hope so) and that is where Toulon will be able to really shine. I really, really hope I am right bc I have high expectations of the putter I am going to make when it comes out.
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#13 Thrillhouse

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:44 PM

View PostShilgy, on 19 June 2017 - 08:39 PM, said:

Well Thrill, it was a boutique brand for over a year. Then Callaway bought them. I think they could have used another year or two to really get the brand rolling and get the name recognition up.
  So we really agree I think. :)

Thing is, without the infusion of a bunch of money (like they have now from Callaway), I'm not sure they could ever have taken their brand to the next level, so this is a necessary part of the process.

I think the other major OEMs have observed Cameron and thought "how can I get a piece of what titleist has", and many have tried, bettinardi was with both Ben hogan and mizuno for a time, Kia ma with Taylormade, now Toulon with callaway. Maybe this is the one that will succeed, but so far no one has been able to replicate what titleist/SC has done.

To me it's two things, the marketing is tough to get right, and you need a ton of tour presence to pull it off. Those things are hard to do.

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