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Wrist speed (not swing speed or Club head speed) of pros?


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#1 ConcentricDimples

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:37 PM

Is there a way to find out what the velocity (speed) of the hands are at impact of a pro?  And then, how would one measure this for themselves?

That way, one can compare their hand speed to any pro with same hand speed to see what their distance potential is.


If some pro's hand speed is (x), and a golfers hand speed is x, then some amount of technique and wrist c0ck (coupled with good contact and proper Club head) can equal the pro's distance.


Watching Pros in person at PGA Tour events, many of them don't seem to have fast hand speeds, but the ball just flies...


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#2 dornstar

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:06 PM

 ConcentricDimples, on 19 June 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Is there a way to find out what the velocity (speed) of the hands are at impact of a pro?  And then, how would one measure this for themselves?

That way, one can compare their hand speed to any pro with same hand speed to see what their distance potential is.


If some pro's hand speed is (x), and a golfers hand speed is x, then some amount of technique and wrist c0ck (coupled with good contact and proper Club head) can equal the pro's distance.


Watching Pros in person at PGA Tour events, many of them don't seem to have fast hand speeds, but the ball just flies...
Recently saw one of the golf "GEARS" videos where they said that they see very little difference between the hand speed of pros and your average golfer. I just looked for the video and couldn't find it right away. I'm not positive, but I think they said most people are in the 18-20 mph range. They often have amateurs who have faster hand speed than pros, but don't hit it nearly as far. It's all about efficiency in how you swing the club and not how fast you move your body.

Edited by dornstar, 19 June 2017 - 01:10 PM.

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#3 ajax5184

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:22 PM

 dornstar, on 19 June 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

 ConcentricDimples, on 19 June 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Is there a way to find out what the velocity (speed) of the hands are at impact of a pro?  And then, how would one measure this for themselves?

That way, one can compare their hand speed to any pro with same hand speed to see what their distance potential is.


If some pro's hand speed is (x), and a golfers hand speed is x, then some amount of technique and wrist c0ck (coupled with good contact and proper Club head) can equal the pro's distance.


Watching Pros in person at PGA Tour events, many of them don't seem to have fast hand speeds, but the ball just flies...
Recently saw one of the golf "GEARS" videos where they said that they see very little difference between the hand speed of pros and your average golfer. I just looked for the video and couldn't find it right away. I'm not positive, but I think they said most people are in the 18-20 mph range. They often have amateurs who have faster hand speed than pros, but don't hit it nearly as far. It's all about efficiency in how you swing the club and not how fast you move your body.

https://www.youtube....h?v=RQmzTuIZTIM

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#4 SNIPERBBB

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:26 PM

I would imagine the 3D systems can.
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#5 Fairways_and_Greens

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:28 PM

 ajax5184, on 19 June 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:


Interesting he says that, but with no data. I'd like to see how he arrived at that.

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#6 MPStrat

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:40 PM

 dornstar, on 19 June 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

It's all about efficiency in how you swing the club and not how fast you move your body.


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#7 dornstar

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:13 PM

 Fairways_and_Greens, on 19 June 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

 ajax5184, on 19 June 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:


Interesting he says that, but with no data. I'd like to see how he arrived at that.
I don't think it would be hard to figure out with the GEARS system. I would like to see some comparative numbers though as well.

Edited by dornstar, 19 June 2017 - 02:15 PM.

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#8 dlygrisse

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:18 PM

 ConcentricDimples, on 19 June 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Is there a way to find out what the velocity (speed) of the hands are at impact of a pro?  And then, how would one measure this for themselves?

That way, one can compare their hand speed to any pro with same hand speed to see what their distance potential is.


If some pro's hand speed is (x), and a golfers hand speed is x, then some amount of technique and wrist c0ck (coupled with good contact and proper Club head) can equal the pro's distance.


Watching Pros in person at PGA Tour events, many of them don't seem to have fast hand speeds, but the ball just flies...
Interesting question.  Probably more about how they release the levers?  Angular momentum?
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#9 MPStrat

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:01 PM

 dlygrisse, on 19 June 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

 ConcentricDimples, on 19 June 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Is there a way to find out what the velocity (speed) of the hands are at impact of a pro?  And then, how would one measure this for themselves?

That way, one can compare their hand speed to any pro with same hand speed to see what their distance potential is.


If some pro's hand speed is (x), and a golfers hand speed is x, then some amount of technique and wrist c0ck (coupled with good contact and proper Club head) can equal the pro's distance.


Watching Pros in person at PGA Tour events, many of them don't seem to have fast hand speeds, but the ball just flies...
Interesting question.  Probably more about how they release the levers?  Angular momentum?

It's about what they do in the backswing and transition

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#10 tyorke1

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:12 PM

Don't agree, have you ever played with a baseball or hockey player , wrists and hands have a huge impact on speed in my opinion , maybe not all but certainly some.


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#11 Fade

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 06:57 PM

 ConcentricDimples, on 19 June 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

If some pro's hand speed is (x), and a golfers hand speed is x, then some amount of technique and wrist c0ck (coupled with good contact and proper Club head) can equal the pro's distance.

Why did you pick hand speed for this kind of logic? You could have picked hip-speed, shoulder speed, nose speed, or any number of things. I suppose you try to explain it in what I quoted from your post, but it isn't obvious to me that hand-speed is the defining quantity that predicts potential.

Edited by Fade, 19 June 2017 - 06:58 PM.


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#12 ConcentricDimples

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:47 PM

 Fade, on 19 June 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

 ConcentricDimples, on 19 June 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

If some pro's hand speed is (x), and a golfers hand speed is x, then some amount of technique and wrist c0ck (coupled with good contact and proper Club head) can equal the pro's distance.

Why did you pick hand speed for this kind of logic? You could have picked hip-speed, shoulder speed, nose speed, or any number of things. I suppose you try to explain it in what I quoted from your post, but it isn't obvious to me that hand-speed is the defining quantity that predicts potential.

I was going off the fact that the hands are what is connected to the Club, and (and I'm guilty of it) all this stuff about lifting, taller golfers, etc etc, but--ultimately--the hands move through the address position (at down swing) at a given speed.  Obviously they connect the golfer to the club.


So my thinking was that if someone could match hand speed to that of a pro, then theoretically their distance deficit would be essentially mechanical, technical things (including shaft length but that's even outside of what I'm getting at) instead of being weaker or not being physically capable of moving the body as fast as a pro*


*OK maybe an Ernie Els type will be faster than a David Lingmerth or Soren Kjeldsen, but that's beside what I'm focusing on.



So a bit of a backstory I used to think out of a combination of assumption and buts and pieces of information that pro golfers had (among other things) better neuromuscular connections, fast-twitch muscles, greater strength in specific muscle groups, etc.  but I'm actually not so sure of that.

And going on my own tangent, my junior swing coach (great guy) kept hammering the concept of quiet hands, etc... point being I always think about that.  So getting to point, the other day on the range I resorted to my natural urge to have incredible wrist-action, and distance gains are substantial.


So to poster, yes, timing, whole body mechanics important (and I'm sure there is some complex calculus with momentum, the moment of inertia of the Club as it relates to connection with the golfer, and golfer's connection through feet to the earth), but anyway.


Hope this answers your question.  I guess if my hypothesis is true (that people of similar size to a golf pro can generate hand-movement speed at the same sped as a pro), then I think for me and others that could be major motivation for focusing on mechanical technique to increase distance rather than (equipment aside)--on my case--strength training and weighted golf-club trainers.

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#13 glk

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 06:41 AM

Article with data on hand speed. It's not hand speed at impact but rather the difference in hand speed from mid-hand postion in swing versus impact, ie transfer of energy resulting in deceleration of hands, more deceleration faster club head.   Think of it as water flowing out of a hose.

http://www.mytpi.com...ematic_sequence

Edited by glk, 20 June 2017 - 06:43 AM.


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#14 Fairways_and_Greens

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 08:38 AM

Great find @glk.
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#15 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 09:22 AM

There is next to zero correlation to hand speed at impact and club head speed. There is a strong strong correlation between vertical hand speed and club head speed.


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#16 RattlesnakeRon

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 09:46 AM

 Fort Worth Pro, on 20 June 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

There is next to zero correlation to hand speed at impact and club head speed. There is a strong strong correlation between vertical hand speed and club head speed.

Would love to hear more about that. Are there any intents/drills one can do to increase vertical hand speed?

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#17 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 10:20 AM

 DeadStick, on 20 June 2017 - 09:46 AM, said:

 Fort Worth Pro, on 20 June 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

There is next to zero correlation to hand speed at impact and club head speed. There is a strong strong correlation between vertical hand speed and club head speed.

Would love to hear more about that. Are there any intents/drills one can do to increase vertical hand speed?

Get the hands as low and forward as you can by p6. Low is more the intent here than forward.

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#18 tyorke1

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 10:24 AM

Low in what regards,could be  really good talk ,

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#19 iteachgolf

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 10:26 AM

 tyorke1, on 20 June 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

Low in what regards,could be  really good talk ,

Closer to the ground

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#20 RattlesnakeRon

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 10:46 AM

 Fort Worth Pro, on 20 June 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

 DeadStick, on 20 June 2017 - 09:46 AM, said:

 Fort Worth Pro, on 20 June 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

There is next to zero correlation to hand speed at impact and club head speed. There is a strong strong correlation between vertical hand speed and club head speed.

Would love to hear more about that. Are there any intents/drills one can do to increase vertical hand speed?

Get the hands as low and forward as you can by p6. Low is more the intent here than forward.

Thanks... interesting that it's hand speed relatively early in the downswing (P4-P6) rather than late in the downswing (P6-P7) that's correlated with swing speed. Where does peak hand speed happen, P6? Or right before P7?


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#21 airjammer

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 11:17 AM

 iteachgolf, on 20 June 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

 tyorke1, on 20 June 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

Low in what regards,could be  really good talk ,

Closer to the ground

Closer to the ground via right arm extension and a little bit of right side bend?

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#22 dornstar

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 11:29 AM

 DeadStick, on 20 June 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

 Fort Worth Pro, on 20 June 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

 DeadStick, on 20 June 2017 - 09:46 AM, said:

 Fort Worth Pro, on 20 June 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

There is next to zero correlation to hand speed at impact and club head speed. There is a strong strong correlation between vertical hand speed and club head speed.

Would love to hear more about that. Are there any intents/drills one can do to increase vertical hand speed?

Get the hands as low and forward as you can by p6. Low is more the intent here than forward.

Thanks... interesting that it's hand speed relatively early in the downswing (P4-P6) rather than late in the downswing (P6-P7) that's correlated with swing speed. Where does peak hand speed happen, P6? Or right before P7?
The picture on the left for "Peak Mid-Hands" shows where....

Posted Image

Edited by dornstar, 20 June 2017 - 11:32 AM.

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#23 iteachgolf

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 11:42 AM

 airjammer, on 20 June 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

 iteachgolf, on 20 June 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

 tyorke1, on 20 June 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

Low in what regards,could be  really good talk ,

Closer to the ground

Closer to the ground via right arm extension and a little bit of right side bend?

And regaining forward flexion of the hips

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#24 ajax5184

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 11:48 AM

 dornstar, on 20 June 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

 DeadStick, on 20 June 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

 Fort Worth Pro, on 20 June 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

 DeadStick, on 20 June 2017 - 09:46 AM, said:

 Fort Worth Pro, on 20 June 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

There is next to zero correlation to hand speed at impact and club head speed. There is a strong strong correlation between vertical hand speed and club head speed.

Would love to hear more about that. Are there any intents/drills one can do to increase vertical hand speed?

Get the hands as low and forward as you can by p6. Low is more the intent here than forward.

Thanks... interesting that it's hand speed relatively early in the downswing (P4-P6) rather than late in the downswing (P6-P7) that's correlated with swing speed. Where does peak hand speed happen, P6? Or right before P7?
The picture on the left for "Peak Mid-Hands" shows where....

Posted Image

So after you hit the position of peak lead shoulder, you start straightening the right arm as hard as possible?

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#25 glk

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    send it in jerome

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 11:58 AM

 ajax5184, on 20 June 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

 dornstar, on 20 June 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

 DeadStick, on 20 June 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

 Fort Worth Pro, on 20 June 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

 Fort Worth Pro, on 20 June 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

There is next to zero correlation to hand speed at impact and club head speed. There is a strong strong correlation between vertical hand speed and club head speed.


Get the hands as low and forward as you can by p6. Low is more the intent here than forward.

Thanks... interesting that it's hand speed relatively early in the downswing (P4-P6) rather than late in the downswing (P6-P7) that's correlated with swing speed. Where does peak hand speed happen, P6? Or right before P7?
The picture on the left for "Peak Mid-Hands" shows where....

Posted Image

So after you hit the position of peak lead shoulder, you start straightening the right arm as hard as possible?

You're actually straigthening the trail arm from transition.
See from 2:00 on.



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#26 tyorke1

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 03:26 PM

really interesting topic , thanks fwp

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