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Spinning it back on pitch shots???


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#1 clubtwirlz

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:14 PM

Hi,
I was watching the U.S Open and saw Hideki Matsuyama spin a 25 yard shot back with an average to low trajectory. It got me to thinking...

I have seen so many pros spin 30-60 yard shots back that are not particularly high trajectory... What's the secret here? I realize they are on TV for a reason but there has to be some basic things in common. Does it have to do with the greens they play on?

Hopefully someone with way more knowledge will chime in.

Thanks


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#2 Thrillhouse

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:17 PM



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#3 clubtwirlz

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:40 PM

View PostThrillhouse, on 18 June 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

I'll have to try that out next time. Thanks!

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#4 Thrillhouse

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:42 PM

I didn't post it to give you something to try out (I mean feel free if you want to but that's not why it's here), I posted it because it answers your question about how spin on pitch shots is achieved.

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#5 MPStrat

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:59 PM

There are other contributing factors but #1 by far is the friction created by clean contact.


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#6 Santiago Golf

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 06:25 PM

They use the slope on the greens and there greens are pretty fast.
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#7 RichieHunt

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 06:39 PM

Clean contact usually thru a shallow attack angle, so you're catching the ball starting at the bottom grooves and it rolls up the face and there is little grass/soil interfering with the ball contact and lowering the spin.  It also helps to have a ball that spins well on those shots and a fairly new wedge where the grooves are deeper.

I find the reason why so many amateurs have difficulty with this shot is that they tend to slide their pelvis too much can't shallow out the attack angle.  Pros are rotating the pelvis more and using the bounce of their wedge more while amateurs are using the leading edge more.




RH

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#8 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 06:50 PM

I really don't want to be a buzz kill, but this is above the pay grade of everyone that doesn't regularly practice their short game for double digit hours a week.

Experienced golfers can learn to do it 1 out of 10 or even 1 out of 5...but what good does that do you.  The rest are going to go a completely different distance.

You're much better off gaining competence at a strike that runs out a bit, but the same way every time.
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#9 gsea33

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 08:07 PM

Ping Eye 2 wedges .... :rockon:

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#10 clubtwirlz

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 10:59 PM

Wow... I was always under the impression that a steep strike achieved maximum spin. Thanks!


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#11 Fireballer

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:02 AM

View PostThrillhouse, on 18 June 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

I didn't post it to give you something to try out (I mean feel free if you want to but that's not why it's here), I posted it because it answers your question about how spin on pitch shots is achieved.

I guess whoever posted the vid to Youtube should change the title then.

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#12 bluedot

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:14 AM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 18 June 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

I really don't want to be a buzz kill, but this is above the pay grade of everyone that doesn't regularly practice their short game for double digit hours a week.

Experienced golfers can learn to do it 1 out of 10 or even 1 out of 5...but what good does that do you.  The rest are going to go a completely different distance.

You're much better off gaining competence at a strike that runs out a bit, but the same way every time.

I agree with you 1000%.  There's is LOTS of stuff done by world class athletes in every sport that just looks incredibly cool and that makes them who they are.  A 98 mph fastball, a windmill dunk, a perfectly thrown spiral through coverage to a receiver in full stride, and so on.  And spinning golf balls on shortish pitches to make them stop and even spin back.

Here's the thing to remember, though: If you see somebody playing a sport professionally on TV, they aren't like you and me.  They've been touched by the gods, or they're a genetic accident/freak, or however you want to think about it, and they can do stuff that more or less normal people just can't do.  And, for the most part, they have not only the time to work on their games because that IS their profession, but they have a work ethic that the average person just can't fully appreciate.

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#13 ClarkGrswld4

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:47 AM

tight fairways help also...basically you need perfect playing conditions to hit the shot and as Monte said, a lot of skill and practice also

Edited by ClarkGrswld4, 19 June 2017 - 08:48 AM.


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#14 dlygrisse

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:10 AM

It's a combination of
1.  technique
2.  Course conditions
3.  Equipment.
4.  Lie of the ball
5.  hole location, slope
6.  Wind speed and direction.  

Occasionally I will hit one, when all these factors come into play.  Usually by accident.  

A low spinner that hops twice and skids to a stop is doable more often, actually spinning it back is probably more luck than skill.
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#15 TPowell

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:30 PM

Useful shot at times but like Monte mentioned, no reason you should be hitting it unless you are already a very solid player. Otherwise, you are just costing yourself shots when you hit it thin/fat/etc


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#16 Low Numbers

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:54 PM

I'll share a short story about spinning it back.  20 + Years ago I was on the back of the Champions range with another friend who was, like me chasing the mini tours trying to make enough money to get to q school and live.
We were hitting 80 yard wedges with I believe were tour edition range balls to this small green trying to hit it past the hole and spin it back into the cup.  Jackie Burke rolls up in his 3 wheeled ezgo and asked what we were working on.  I proudly announced that we were working on spinning the ball into the hole. Mr Burke said "Man, 2 major championships and 50 years in the game and I've never seen anyone make any money making the ball come back to them".  As I heard the clang of the parking brake and the hum of the electric cart drive away i couldn't get back to my bag fast enough so I could pull my head cover over my head and make a dash for the parking lot.

Edited by Low Numbers, 19 June 2017 - 08:56 PM.

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#17 AJ Joseph

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:25 PM

It does take skill   Majy top players change out wedges every few weeks.
Ever hit a brand new wedge and watch it spin


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#18 jslane57

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:33 PM

A tour ball. Perfect contact. For the regular golfer, one is over rated, and the other just isn't happening...
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#19 Psyber

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:57 PM

View PostLow Numbers, on 19 June 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

I'll share a short story about spinning it back.  20 + Years ago I was on the back of the Champions range with another friend who was, like me chasing the mini tours trying to make enough money to get to q school and live.
We were hitting 80 yard wedges with I believe were tour edition range balls to this small green trying to hit it past the hole and spin it back into the cup.  Jackie Burke rolls up in his 3 wheeled ezgo and asked what we were working on.  I proudly announced that we were working on spinning the ball into the hole. Mr Burke said "Man, 2 major championships and 50 years in the game and I've never seen anyone make any money making the ball come back to them".  As I heard the clang of the parking brake and the hum of the electric cart drive away i couldn't get back to my bag fast enough so I could pull my head cover over my head and make a dash for the parking lot.

When you think about this is really a specialty shot where the shape of the green favors it. Even then it is high risk.
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#20 MeikoKaji

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 01:17 AM

View Postbluedot, on 19 June 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 18 June 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

I really don't want to be a buzz kill, but this is above the pay grade of everyone that doesn't regularly practice their short game for double digit hours a week.

Experienced golfers can learn to do it 1 out of 10 or even 1 out of 5...but what good does that do you.  The rest are going to go a completely different distance.

You're much better off gaining competence at a strike that runs out a bit, but the same way every time.

I agree with you 1000%.  There's is LOTS of stuff done by world class athletes in every sport that just looks incredibly cool and that makes them who they are.  A 98 mph fastball, a windmill dunk, a perfectly thrown spiral through coverage to a receiver in full stride, and so on.  And spinning golf balls on shortish pitches to make them stop and even spin back.

Here's the thing to remember, though: If you see somebody playing a sport professionally on TV, they aren't like you and me.  They've been touched by the gods, or they're a genetic accident/freak, or however you want to think about it, and they can do stuff that more or less normal people just can't do.  And, for the most part, they have not only the time to work on their games because that IS their profession, but they have a work ethic that the average person just can't fully appreciate.
that's pathetic.  it's just physics and requires no intervention by imaginary people in the sky.  literally no physical ability other than to be able to stand up (optional, but it helps) and move your arms back and forth (not optional).  richie hunt explains it above.

i agree to do it consistently then requires the last part of your comment, which, in my mind, isn't worth the effort.


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#21 Lefthook

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 02:59 AM

It's harder than a bump and run for sure, but it doesn't take special genes to pull it off. Just a shallow angle of attack with a bit of release through the ball.

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#22 clubtwirlz

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 05:20 PM

Great responses guys. Thank you

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#23 bluedot

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 12:25 PM

View PostMeikoKaji, on 20 June 2017 - 01:17 AM, said:

View Postbluedot, on 19 June 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 18 June 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

I really don't want to be a buzz kill, but this is above the pay grade of everyone that doesn't regularly practice their short game for double digit hours a week.

Experienced golfers can learn to do it 1 out of 10 or even 1 out of 5...but what good does that do you.  The rest are going to go a completely different distance.

You're much better off gaining competence at a strike that runs out a bit, but the same way every time.

I agree with you 1000%.  There's is LOTS of stuff done by world class athletes in every sport that just looks incredibly cool and that makes them who they are.  A 98 mph fastball, a windmill dunk, a perfectly thrown spiral through coverage to a receiver in full stride, and so on.  And spinning golf balls on shortish pitches to make them stop and even spin back.

Here's the thing to remember, though: If you see somebody playing a sport professionally on TV, they aren't like you and me.  They've been touched by the gods, or they're a genetic accident/freak, or however you want to think about it, and they can do stuff that more or less normal people just can't do.  And, for the most part, they have not only the time to work on their games because that IS their profession, but they have a work ethic that the average person just can't fully appreciate.
that's pathetic.  it's just physics and requires no intervention by imaginary people in the sky.  literally no physical ability other than to be able to stand up (optional, but it helps) and move your arms back and forth (not optional).  richie hunt explains it above.

i agree to do it consistently then requires the last part of your comment, which, in my mind, isn't worth the effort.

Thanks!  Always enjoy it when somebody elevates the discussion by calling something "pathetic".  Nice...

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#24 Ajlepisto

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 06:48 PM

I'm a bit confused, because while saying to be shallow is okay advice, that doesn't necessarily do it?

Spin is created from spin loft. That is the difference between your dynamic loft, and your angle of attack. You can hit down a lot and hit a low spinner. Also you can pick it and hit a good spinner, although that way it tends to be a higher trajectory because you'd need to present more dynamic loft to have the same spin loft.

Yes there is groove friction too, but I don't really see how that overrides spin loft, since spin loft is used as the measurement on full shots? Also a harder core ball with a soft cover will spin more, as will a more glancing blow, hence the high spin loft.

I don't know about spinning it back but hitting a one or two bounce and stop ball that flies pretty low should be pretty easy to achieve with a little practice. Sure you don't get the safety net of playing some roll in case you hit it a little fat, but you do get a little help hitting it thin because of the gear effect. Obviously don't blade it completely.

Here's another Trackman video with the same idea: https://www.youtube....h?v=eSowclJduew

It seems like they're just really relying on face friction. I wish they'd show spin loft numbers during these shots.

Edited by Ajlepisto, 21 June 2017 - 06:55 PM.


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#25 blehnhard

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:00 PM

For every pro you see on tv hitting it past the hole and spinning it back closer, there are 3 pros landing it short of the hole and spinning it further away.  Course conditions (firm fast greens with some slope from back to front), wind (slightly into you), and equipment (ball and wedges) are all factors.  Give me 2 hops and stop every time.  I try to "low spin" my 3/4 to full wedges all the time.  And yes, I have "tour experience".

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#26 iteachgolf

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:20 PM

View PostAjlepisto, on 21 June 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

I'm a bit confused, because while saying to be shallow is okay advice, that doesn't necessarily do it?

Spin is created from spin loft. That is the difference between your dynamic loft, and your angle of attack. You can hit down a lot and hit a low spinner. Also you can pick it and hit a good spinner, although that way it tends to be a higher trajectory because you'd need to present more dynamic loft to have the same spin loft.

Yes there is groove friction too, but I don't really see how that overrides spin loft, since spin loft is used as the measurement on full shots? Also a harder core ball with a soft cover will spin more, as will a more glancing blow, hence the high spin loft.

I don't know about spinning it back but hitting a one or two bounce and stop ball that flies pretty low should be pretty easy to achieve with a little practice. Sure you don't get the safety net of playing some roll in case you hit it a little fat, but you do get a little help hitting it thin because of the gear effect. Obviously don't blade it completely.

Here's another Trackman video with the same idea: https://www.youtube....h?v=eSowclJduew

It seems like they're just really relying on face friction. I wish they'd show spin loft numbers during these shots.

There's a point where too much spin loft results in less spin due to not enough friction.  And shallow is relative.  They are still hitting 4-7* down on it

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#27 clubtwirlz

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:31 PM

Would someone please explain spin loft and some basics on how to achieve it?

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#28 iteachgolf

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:37 PM

View Postclubtwirlz, on 21 June 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

Would someone please explain spin loft and some basics on how to achieve it?

Every shot has spin loft.  It's the difference between AOA and dynamic loft at impact.  Up to a point the greater the number the more spin you generate for a given speed.

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#29 Ajlepisto

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:20 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 21 June 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

View PostAjlepisto, on 21 June 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

I'm a bit confused, because while saying to be shallow is okay advice, that doesn't necessarily do it?

Spin is created from spin loft. That is the difference between your dynamic loft, and your angle of attack. You can hit down a lot and hit a low spinner. Also you can pick it and hit a good spinner, although that way it tends to be a higher trajectory because you'd need to present more dynamic loft to have the same spin loft.

Yes there is groove friction too, but I don't really see how that overrides spin loft, since spin loft is used as the measurement on full shots? Also a harder core ball with a soft cover will spin more, as will a more glancing blow, hence the high spin loft.

I don't know about spinning it back but hitting a one or two bounce and stop ball that flies pretty low should be pretty easy to achieve with a little practice. Sure you don't get the safety net of playing some roll in case you hit it a little fat, but you do get a little help hitting it thin because of the gear effect. Obviously don't blade it completely.

Here's another Trackman video with the same idea: https://www.youtube....h?v=eSowclJduew

It seems like they're just really relying on face friction. I wish they'd show spin loft numbers during these shots.

There's a point where too much spin loft results in less spin due to not enough friction.  And shallow is relative.  They are still hitting 4-7* down on it

Ok, thank you for the clarification. I didn't really know there was a drop-off point for spin loft, but I guess it makes sense.

So do you think that by teaching people to hit it with a different technique they're essentially just creating cleaner contact and THAT'S why the spin is increasing on these little draw shots?

Seems almost like the guys are not hitting the ball very clean and by shallowing them out and whatever they're actually just hitting the ball more solid which creates the spin?

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#30 Ri_Redneck

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GolfWRX Likes : 964

Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:38 PM

Not to be a party crasher, but I seem to remember a few spinning back away from the pin and some right off the green. I think I'd rather just have a bit of check and roll instead.

BT

DR #1. RED Amp Cell Pro w/ ATX Red 65 TX 44.5",
DR #2. BLUE Bio Cell Pro w/ ATX Blue 75 X 44.5"
DR #3. WHITE Fly-Z+ w/ Kiyoshi White 75 S 44.5"
DR #4. King LTD Black w/ SpeedrulZ Type A 70 S 44.5"
DR #5. Matte Black Fly-Z + w/ Aldila Rip Beta 70 X 44.5"
RED Bio Cell 3-4 W/ 7Q3 S, BLUE King F6 3-4 w/ Speeder 757 BO Ltd., WHITE Fly-Z 3-4 w/ Speeder 757 US Open Ltd
RED AC 3-4 w/ 7Q3 S, Matte Black Fly-Z 3-4 w/ Rip Beta 80 S - All at 43"
BLUE Bio Cell 5-7 w/ Speeder 757 S British Open LTD, RED Amp Cell 5-7 w/ 8Q3 S, WHITE Fly-Z 5-7 Fubuki Alpha 80 X - All at 42"
Cobra Amp Cell Pro 4-pw Aldila Rip Tour 115 R
Mizuno MP4 4-pw Matrix Program 130 S
Mizuno MP14 Black Chrome 4-PW Aldila Rip Tour 115 R
Mizuno MP-T5 52-8, 56-12 & 60-8 satin & black
PT#1 Natural Touch Macassar Ebony (rotate)
PT#2 Natural Touch Afzelia Burl (rotate)
PT#3 Natural Touch Bolivian Rosewood (rotate)

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