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for everyone who complains about jacked lofts


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#31 MtlJeff

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 08:53 PM

I agree with Thrillhouse . I will admit in principle that the new irons launch higher, but i do not think this is a problem for 95% of golfers.

When i demo'd the I200, i was fit for the "strong lofts" because my launch even with S300 was 3-4 degrees too high with the normal lofts with a 7 iron. So if i get the strong lofts, the 7 iron becomes a 6 iron essentially, but it has a shorter shaft than a typical 6 iron. So that helps keep down the launch a bit. Personally i don't care about the number on the club.

Now i launch the ball higher than probably 95% of golfers. I think most golfers, they could easily just have a "non-jacked" loft with the standard length shaft, and 95% of people would not launch it too high

Edited by MtlJeff, 19 June 2017 - 05:33 PM.

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#32 Brock Landers

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:18 PM

Well today I hit my 48* 588 rtx three yards shorter then my 44* z355 on more then one occasion. They both have the same shaft and felt like solid shots, grass marks in the middle of the face. The only thing that makes sense is the sgi pw masked my miss hit (slightly fat) and I flushed the wedge.


Edited by Brock Landers, 18 June 2017 - 09:19 PM.

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#33 Callilady7

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:32 PM

We just go according to how far and how high we need to hit each club.  The number on the bottom is just a reference symbol.  Kinda simple really.

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#34 SixSixGolf

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 11:59 PM

View Postjlaw6, on 18 June 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

I don't need a computer to tell me how much my ball is spinning when i can see what it's doing on the course. No significant difference than ap2's other than an extra 5 yards with my new irons

lol ok

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#35 dunn

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:39 AM

View Postjlaw6, on 18 June 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

I hit his irons next to mine all day. I know the lofts of mine. Doubt a 20 year old set of irons has the same jacked lofts as my new irons
when your game gets better youll understand about loft issue......a few swings with clubs you dont even know actual loft of is same as a wild guess.....thrillhouse was trying to explain something and you....and he is absolutley correct...1 day 2 swings with clubs you have no idea what specs are and were the idiots, lol

Edited by dunn, 19 June 2017 - 12:51 AM.


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#36 Handfull

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:39 AM

View PostLeoLeo99, on 18 June 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

View PostUSGA22, on 18 June 2017 - 08:07 PM, said:

Jacked up Lofts; Check the Power Spec Lofts of the revered PING I200 against the everything that is wrong with golf the M1 irons. on a 5-GW set the only significant difference.

i200 5 Iron 25 degree; M1 23 degree; I200 6 iron 28 degree; M1 26.5 degree; all other clubs within .5 to 1 difference.

The new standard.

That's everything wrong with golf?

Lol. No way that's everything.  Didn't mention Brandel Chamblee anywhere in post.

Edited by Handfull, 19 June 2017 - 04:40 AM.


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#37 JRS

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:40 AM

ap1's are so jacked that they have TWO gap wedges. W2 should be a P, W1 should be 9 and so on.

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#38 oldschoolrocker

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:56 AM

The bottom line is you still have to do what the majority of us average Joe's need to worry about.  Controlling the ball.  Doesn't matter if you're bagging a 1970's blade, or a new GI set.  
  Find what works for you in a set of irons, loft, lie, shaft (flex, kick, and length) and go out and golf your ball.
  Of course, being the Ho's we are, there's always greener grass to graze in, or so we think.

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#39 ThunderBuzzworth

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 07:19 AM

I echo everything Thrillhouse has said.
Do your irons and his irons have the same exact shafts? Same weight? Same flex? Are the head weights the same? Maybe your irons are a bad fit for you? Maybe his irons give you better turf interaction or have a better lie angle for you. These are all things we will never know

The new GI iron designs are built for higher launch donuts no surprise the old ones would fly lower but there are about 99 other factors to incorporate before making that assumption you made

Edited by ThunderBuzzworth, 19 June 2017 - 07:22 AM.

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#40 Nessism

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 07:21 AM

Manufacturers jack lofts to sell more clubs to Joe Lunchpail.  Joe likes it when he can hit an 8 iron instead of a 7.  It makes him feel good and impress his buddies.  Instead of 2/3-PW modern sets are 4/5-AW.  Some of these modern sets have the CG set back far behind the face, which causes the ball to launch high, so strong lofts make sense to some extent, but that's not the primary reason for the strong lofts.  

Some people say the number on the bottom of the club doesn't matter, just how far you hit each club, but that's a matter of opinion.  Some people don't like the marketing aspect of jacked lofts and I for one don't blame them.  The M2 5 iron is 21.5 degrees.  Don't tell me that's because the club launches high.  

With time a person can adjust to their new distances...but some of us resent having to adjust to their clubs.  The main thing with fitting is finding clubs that match our swing, but these new lofts fly in the face of that and require US to adjust.

Edited by Nessism, 19 June 2017 - 08:43 AM.

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#41 TomWishon

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:39 PM

View PostTMelectric, on 18 June 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

Can someone explain the downside to the jacked lofts? Meaning what is the sacrifice. It's been my experience you don't get something for nothing. Drivers that claim they are longer usually sacrifice forgiveness

I'll take the plunge to talk about downsides with lower loft irons. . . .

Do the sales people at the golf stores tell you that perhaps you won't be able to hit the #3, 4 or 5 irons as high or as consistently as you do in your previous older set with higher lofts?  Do they volunteer to sell you fewer clubs in the set because of this so you won't waste your money on clubs you can't hit and won't use?  Maybe a really considerate and honest sales person here or there but not the majority by any means among those who work for the big retail stores or pro shops.  Set Makeup fitting is really important for all golfers but especially so for players with average to below avg clubhead speeds.  

Even for a very high speed player you have to consider the fact that when most companies get ridiculously strong with their lofts, they set the loft gap between the 3 and 4, the 4 and 5 to be 3* or less, sometimes only 2*.   Shoot, even a player with a 90mph 5 iron speed is not going to see a decent distance gap between irons with a 2* loft spacing.   And then there is the fact that all clubheads are made with an error tolerance for loft of +/-1*.  So that means you could have a 3 and 4 iron that are 1* apart or even the same loft due to the normal tolerance.   And +/-1* tolerance is from the best clubhead production factories.  It's +/-1.5* from the medium quality head factories.  

Why do they do 2* loft spacing between some of the low number irons?   So they can continue to sell eight irons in a set to make money.   I remember years ago fighting with an OEM about this when I was a VP with Golfsmith.   This was back in the 90s when lofts were not nearly as strong as today.  We wanted to order sets of 4 to PW for all the retail stores because so many of the retail customers did not want to buy the #3 iron.  The OEM bitched and moaned and put up all manner of defense because if a big chain like Golfsmith were to switch to ordering all game improvement iron models in #4-PW, that would mean a 12.5% drop in iron sales money.  Finally everyone compromised on a #4 to Gap Wedge set makeup so GS did not have to get anymore 3-irons and the OEM would still be able to sell eight irons in each set ordered.  

Look at the Taylor Made M2 irons for an example - #4 iron = 19*,  #5 iron = 21.5*, #6 iron = 25*. . . . . When you think of the avg golfer being a 17 hdcp with a 5 iron speed of 72-75 mph, how many of those golfers do you think can really hit the #4, 5 or even the #6 iron high enough to carry far enough to create a decent distance gap between the irons?   And how many retail stores are going to measure that guy's speed and then pro actively tell him "we recommend your set makeup be a #7 to gap wedge" ?  

That's my main gripe on it.  That and the fact that once a lot of companies move into lower and lower lofts on their irons, it without question forces every company and every designer to do the same or else your sets will be labeled as "short hitting" and people won't buy them.  One more - that the companies try to defend their move to strong lofts by saying the technology of the game improvement design or the CG placement in the heads requires them to do the lower lofts.  That my friends is plain unadulterated BULL stuff.  Or call it the "fake news" of the golf equipment industry !!  

Really, I can live with the very low loft irons if the companies would make it a point to train all their accounts on how to determine what the best set makeup would be for each player and then sell the players only the irons they have the ability to hit well enough to merit being in their bag.   Do that and it's fine if Joe Golfer thinks that his new set is the greatest thing since sliced bread because he now can hit an 8 iron from 140 where before it was a 7 iron.

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#42 Z1ggy16

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:56 PM

View PostTMelectric, on 18 June 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

Can someone explain the downside to the jacked lofts? Meaning what is the sacrifice. It's been my experience you don't get something for nothing. Drivers that claim they are longer usually sacrifice forgiveness
One "downside" is the spin tanks relative to other irons with the same number stamped on it. When you're 190+ out and your iron rolls 15+ yards, you're going to have a hell of a time hitting a front pin. Generally you're left with a monster putt from the back, or a touchy little chip off a tight lie. You need to generate massive height with the SGI/GI jacked loft irons to make them stop, which puts you at a huge disadvantage in wind.

The advantages are that you can brag to your buddies that your 7i can go 2 clubs longer than theirs, and you are swinging a slightly shorter version of the non jacked option, potentially making it easier to hit. But really, your 7i is just a 6i with a 7 stamped on it. In the case of M2 irons, your 7i is really a 5.5 iron.

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Edited by Z1ggy16, 19 June 2017 - 03:00 PM.

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#43 rawdog

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:05 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 19 June 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

View PostTMelectric, on 18 June 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

Can someone explain the downside to the jacked lofts? Meaning what is the sacrifice. It's been my experience you don't get something for nothing. Drivers that claim they are longer usually sacrifice forgiveness

I'll take the plunge to talk about downsides with lower loft irons. . . .

Do the sales people at the golf stores tell you that perhaps you won't be able to hit the #3, 4 or 5 irons as high or as consistently as you do in your previous older set with higher lofts?  Do they volunteer to sell you fewer clubs in the set because of this so you won't waste your money on clubs you can't hit and won't use?  Maybe a really considerate and honest sales person here or there but not the majority by any means among those who work for the big retail stores or pro shops.  Set Makeup fitting is really important for all golfers but especially so for players with average to below avg clubhead speeds.  

Even for a very high speed player you have to consider the fact that when most companies get ridiculously strong with their lofts, they set the loft gap between the 3 and 4, the 4 and 5 to be 3* or less, sometimes only 2*.   Shoot, even a player with a 90mph 5 iron speed is not going to see a decent distance gap between irons with a 2* loft spacing.   And then there is the fact that all clubheads are made with an error tolerance for loft of +/-1*.  So that means you could have a 3 and 4 iron that are 1* apart or even the same loft due to the normal tolerance.   And +/-1* tolerance is from the best clubhead production factories.  It's +/-1.5* from the medium quality head factories.  

Why do they do 2* loft spacing between some of the low number irons?   So they can continue to sell eight irons in a set to make money.   I remember years ago fighting with an OEM about this when I was a VP with Golfsmith.   This was back in the 90s when lofts were not nearly as strong as today.  We wanted to order sets of 4 to PW for all the retail stores because so many of the retail customers did not want to buy the #3 iron.  The OEM bitched and moaned and put up all manner of defense because if a big chain like Golfsmith were to switch to ordering all game improvement iron models in #4-PW, that would mean a 12.5% drop in iron sales money.  Finally everyone compromised on a #4 to Gap Wedge set makeup so GS did not have to get anymore 3-irons and the OEM would still be able to sell eight irons in each set ordered.  

Look at the Taylor Made M2 irons for an example - #4 iron = 19*,  #5 iron = 21.5*, #6 iron = 25*. . . . . When you think of the avg golfer being a 17 hdcp with a 5 iron speed of 72-75 mph, how many of those golfers do you think can really hit the #4, 5 or even the #6 iron high enough to carry far enough to create a decent distance gap between the irons?   And how many retail stores are going to measure that guy's speed and then pro actively tell him "we recommend your set makeup be a #7 to gap wedge" ?  

That's my main gripe on it.  That and the fact that once a lot of companies move into lower and lower lofts on their irons, it without question forces every company and every designer to do the same or else your sets will be labeled as "short hitting" and people won't buy them.  One more - that the companies try to defend their move to strong lofts by saying the technology of the game improvement design or the CG placement in the heads requires them to do the lower lofts.  That my friends is plain unadulterated BULL stuff.  Or call it the "fake news" of the golf equipment industry !!  

Really, I can live with the very low loft irons if the companies would make it a point to train all their accounts on how to determine what the best set makeup would be for each player and then sell the players only the irons they have the ability to hit well enough to merit being in their bag.   Do that and it's fine if Joe Golfer thinks that his new set is the greatest thing since sliced bread because he now can hit an 8 iron from 140 where before it was a 7 iron.

Hi, Tom. Thanks for the time on here, as always.

A while back I posted a chart I made comparing my MX-25 irons to TM SpeedBlades. I wanted to see the effect of higher COR vs. more loft- which one contributes more to distance?

I can post the chart if you care to see, but I'm curious off the top of your head what you think about the effects of high COR on ball speed, spin, and ultimately, distance. Since you did a lot of work in the early days of high-COR irons, how does that play into this?

I realize loft is (literally) just part of the distance equation. A lot of guys on here talk about lofts being the sole contributor to the increased distances, but I believe higher CORs play into it as well.

I realize high-COR is only found on select irons, but my thought is that it makes a measurable impact for those designs.
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#44 Sean2

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:19 PM

View PostThrillhouse, on 18 June 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

There's a reason why they do it and a reason why they say they do it, and they aren't the same thing.

The average golfer would be aided by hitting a 40 degree 8 iron higher with the new tech in the head than their old 40 degree 8 iron. For most people hitting it too high isn't an issue, and for the ones for who it is an issue it's because they're dumping the angle on the downswing and their hands are behind the clubhead at impact. Those people would hit any iron too high (and would sacrifice distance).

I'm just not buying the "we need to do it to adjust to the tech" argument. They jack the lofts because people buy new irons when they go 10 yards further, and they knock down the CG so they can jack up the lofts as much as possible.

That's sums it up quite nicely.

Sure you will hit that 21.5º M2 5-iron longer than your 24º Burner 5-iron and longer than your 27º Callaway X-22 5-iron. So, the OEM's promise you that you will hit it longer...and you will, sort of, but...

When someone tells me they hit their new irons one club or more longer, I don't have the heart to tell them "not really".

At one time you could get some idea of what club to hit based on what the other fellow used. Not so much anymore.

It's simply a selling point and is as overrated as forgiveness. They all do it, they have to in order to stay competitive.
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#45 TomWishon

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:21 PM

View Postrawdog, on 19 June 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:


Hi, Tom. Thanks for the time on here, as always.

A while back I posted a chart I made comparing my MX-25 irons to TM SpeedBlades. I wanted to see the effect of higher COR vs. more loft- which one contributes more to distance?

I can post the chart if you care to see, but I'm curious off the top of your head what you think about the effects of high COR on ball speed, spin, and ultimately, distance. Since you did a lot of work in the early days of high-COR irons, how does that play into this?

I realize loft is (literally) just part of the distance equation. A lot of guys on here talk about lofts being the sole contributor to the increased distances, but I believe higher CORs play into it as well.

I realize high-COR is only found on select irons, but my thought is that it makes a measurable impact for those designs.

Sure thing.  

A BIG part of this is just how high is the COR of the iron model in question.  This is NOT like COR in drivers where everyone and his uncle can easily make a driver with a COR up there pushing the limit in the rules.  I've seen in my work and seen it verified by several people with TrackMan or Flight Scope that many of the industry's high COR irons are not really close to the USGA limit.  You can see this by watching the smash factor from the lower loft irons in the set.  A true high COR to the limit of the rules will show a smash factor of 1.47 to 1.49.  I've seen many of these so called high COR irons come up with a 1.38-1.40.

Yes, this is higher than the COR of a traditional thick face iron but it is not up there where the COR of an iron can be made to be.  Since TrackMan came out, I have done the 770CFE, 870Ti, 771CSI and the #4 to 7 irons in the Sterling single length set, all as high COR irons.  Every one of them when on spec for face thickness will show a smash factor between 1.47-1.49 for the #4, 5, 6, 7 irons.  Then with the 8 on down, because loft is so much higher, the smash factor cannot hit 1.47-1.49 because as loft increases this much, the impact is more of a glancing blow than a compression of the face inward.  

But if you were to do the old USGA COR air cannon test, that would show all the irons to be 0.825 to 0.830 when on spec for face thickness and heat treatment because the USGA's old COR test did put every iron in a 0* loft position for the ball to hit the face and rebound so as to max out the compression of the ball into the face.  

Anyway - what I have seen with a real 0.830 COR iron is that for a player with 80mph iron speed with a 5 or 6 iron, they gain one full club from the COR when the lofts are the same between such a high COR iron and a normal traditional iron.   For a player with a 70 mph 5 iron speed, it is about a half club longer with the high COR iron.  

If you are talking about tour players hitting ungodly distances with various irons, no, the COR is not an issue there because hardly any of these guys play high COR face iron models.  I think a handful might, but way over 95% are playing thick face irons.   What those lofts are on those iron models out there on tour could be all over the place.  No one knows because no one has access to all the tour players' sets to do loft measurements.  But I think using a 5 iron as an example, you have 5 irons on tour that are as high as 28* and some that could be as low as 23-24*, depending on the player and the model and if they tweak the lofts or not.   Distances with the irons out there is partly loft but very heavily the fact that you have a good number of these guys with a 5 iron speed of over 90mph, with some approaching 100mph with the 5 iron.

Now THAT is ungodly fast.  Plus they have the ability to ratchet up their normal clubhead speed by 5 to even 8-9 mph when they feel a need to "lean on a shot" a little more.   Did you see Matsuyama hit 9 iron on the 184 yd #16 in the final round of the US Open when he was making a push at Koepka and Harman? The shot was downwind a little but he came out of his shoes on that swing.


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#46 rawdog

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:41 PM

@Tom

Thanks for the reply. I didn't get to see Matsuyama's shot, but I'll give it a look if I can find it on YouTube. I remember TM releasing the SpeedBlade and Rocket-whatevers a few years ago and some of the pros did play the high-COR design, including Rose and DJ. As you said, no real way to verify their equipment, but that was what we were told they were playing!

http://www.pgatour.c...blade-iron.html

I've attached my chart, where I used Tutelman's formula for ball speed to estimate ball speed leaving the face on traditional and high-COR designs.

https://www.tutelman...smashfactor.php

I plugged in my approximate swing speeds (I only bag the 5i on down :) ), and found about 50/50 gain in ball speed from loft vs. COR. Obviously, this doesn't account for launch angle or spin, but ball speed was a rough proxy for distance potential.

I appreciate your take on this, as a lot of the people I encounter on this site seem to discount the effect that a small change in COR can have.

(Side note, I also loved Tutelman's analysis of your 770 CFE https://www.tutelman...exFaceIrons.php)

Best,

Anthony

Attached Thumbnails

  • COR.png

Edited by rawdog, 19 June 2017 - 03:49 PM.

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#47 Fairways_and_Greens

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:53 PM

View Postjlaw6, on 18 June 2017 - 06:38 PM, said:

Probably about 8 iron shots with both

So in the middle of a round you shot 16 shots into a par 3? Your course Marshall must love you. I didn't know people carried 16 balls with them.
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#48 overparfornow

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 09:02 AM

Choose the irons you like, the ball that works best with them and it makes no difference whether they are "jacked" or not. Just MHO.

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#49 brew4eagle

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 09:08 AM

I used to be skeptical and think it was all a ploy for the ball to go farther and sell more clubs.  But recently got fit for a set which has "jacked" lofts (AP1).  I hit them side by side with my traditionally lofted irons (VR Forged Pro Combo).  I seemed to gain 5 to 8 yds with each club, and the AP1s also went much higher.  It wasn't like the AP1 was dramatically longer even with the stronger lofts.  I was more impressed with the height, and especially the ease of height.  Really didn't see a drawback during the fitting, time will tell on the course.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that I did see some merit in the rationale of trajectory control via balance of low CG and static loft.
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#50 dan360

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    not a jacked loft

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 09:27 AM

Maybe it's only me but a good simple example of this is the MP-32.  

1° strong from the 33s with the big slice across the back = straight up in the damn air.   Moonballs.  

Jack em up another degree and grind the bounce back = too light swingweight.  Now lead tape right across the slice and presto! we've just neutered the "cut muscle" and made an ugly MP-33 incestual byproduct.

So we cut a bigger hole fill it with some exotic NASA alloy and presto! Technology!



Edited by dan360, 08 July 2017 - 09:29 AM.

As of 01AUG2017

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