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Fall of Scotty


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#61 Thrillhouse

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 06:41 PM

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 20 June 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

View Postconversationpiece, on 15 June 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Is Scotty Cameron losing his grip on the putter industry? It seems so. Recent designs have shifted towards large mallets taking after other manufacturers. Even newer versions of classic designs such as the Newport have lost the luster and luxury feel that older models had. Is Titleist/Cameron shifting towards the mass-consumerist approach, chasing the profits and getting away from their roots? They may be chasing the $ now but in the end it may be a fatal blunder. The rise of custom putter companies and competition between them has made them more prevalent and much more popular. Scotty continues to keep putters locked up in the glass at retail stores while the newest Bettinardi line sits out next to it, asking to be tried out. What's the market for a Cameron putter now? Custom market is flooded with highly skilled putter makers alongside equal or greater quality milled putter companies at a lower pricepoint. The mid-price putter market is owned by Odyssey and even Cleveland. How much longer will people pay for the Scotty Cameron name?
There more unproven assertions in this paragraph than a month's worth of CNN headlines... I've probably seen 3 Bettinardis on the course in 15 years, and about 20,000 Camerons.

Yup, this is true. I've seen thousands of Cameron's, I've played a bunch of golf with a bettinardi as I own a couple, and a friend of mine does as well, but other than us two I've seen less than five over the last 20 years.


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#62 Sean2

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 07:25 PM

View PostShakester, on 19 June 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

I see the emergence of all these high end putter companies that are trying to get a piece of the market and they're succeeding to an extent.  But I feel Cameron will have his named stamped on a lot of putters on the tours.  More than anyone in the business as well.  He has proven products.  My Newport is 15 years old and it feels much nicer than most of these other putters that I've been trying and that includes the newer Camerons as well.

Say what you will, the guy makes good, solid, quality putters. Are they worth the price? That is for the potential customer to decide. However, I can't understand why some people rail against SC, or PXG for that matter. It's not like they are being forced to purchase his putters.
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#63 conversationpiece

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 07:38 PM

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 20 June 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

View Postconversationpiece, on 15 June 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Is Scotty Cameron losing his grip on the putter industry? It seems so. Recent designs have shifted towards large mallets taking after other manufacturers. Even newer versions of classic designs such as the Newport have lost the luster and luxury feel that older models had. Is Titleist/Cameron shifting towards the mass-consumerist approach, chasing the profits and getting away from their roots? They may be chasing the $ now but in the end it may be a fatal blunder. The rise of custom putter companies and competition between them has made them more prevalent and much more popular. Scotty continues to keep putters locked up in the glass at retail stores while the newest Bettinardi line sits out next to it, asking to be tried out. What's the market for a Cameron putter now? Custom market is flooded with highly skilled putter makers alongside equal or greater quality milled putter companies at a lower pricepoint. The mid-price putter market is owned by Odyssey and even Cleveland. How much longer will people pay for the Scotty Cameron name?
There more unproven assertions in this paragraph than a month's worth of CNN headlines... I've probably seen 3 Bettinardis on the course in 15 years, and about 20,000 Camerons.
I'll spell out my "unproven assertions". First off - never claimed that Bettinardi was more popular that Scotty, only that Scotty putters are locked away in glass at many retail stores (not all, but many). Bettinardi putters are not. As for Scotty shifting to mallets, take the Futura X, X5 and X7 as proof. They are clearly a response to Odyssey designs and have a bigger place in marketing than non-traditional Scotty designs of the past like the Detour or Futura Phantom. Not saying it's wrong for him to make those kind of putters, only that those garden-tool style clubs aren't exactly what comes to mind when you think of the putters that elevated Scotty to his current position. Talking about mid-range putters, obviously not Scotty's market but I believe it's obvious that Odyssey is king there. As for milled putter companies, Edel, Carbon, and Bettinardi coming in at $340 or less for the majority of their products, plus Kingston and SeeMore to a lesser degree. Truly custom companies like Byron aren't a big threat to Scotty but they are gaining steam compared to when Scotty was in his prime. I don't believe that Scotty sales are dropping right now, only that I predict it in the future.

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#64 maverick

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 09:27 PM

I have seen one Bettinardi and could care less how many I see nor do I care how many SC putters I see. As far as the tour you cannot compare the two because one company pays players to use their equipment and one does not.  If Bettinardi had as many Camerons on the tour they would have similar wins. It s just numbers. The more putters on tour=more wins. This simple concept seems to be beyond some here. I will again state what I did in a few posts ago. I am NOT saying anything negative about Scotty Cameron nor his putters, understand?

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#65 Matt J

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:29 AM

Guess it depends on where you play, but I feel like I see putters in two classes, inexpensive putters and Scotty's.  And I play a Byron Morgan although I have a few SC's.

I've seen a few Bettinardis, although I feel like their OTR's are mostly guys who found great deals on them used.


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#66 platgof

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 05:22 PM

Cameron got to where he is because he has developed the quality expected in the Acushnet family of products. They are sought after and deliver the goods. I have bought other putters, but the feel of my "garden tool" is pretty amazing. Plus prices are pretty decent right now.
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#67 mwhitley92

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:47 PM

Scotty falling off?
LOL
How many ppl are likely to drool over a TOUR ISSUE spider
But a circle T?...almost everyone gets a lil chubby. T I M E L E S S

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#68 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 11:14 PM

Let me point out two unproven assertions:
(1) you state Cameron is losing his grip on the market
(2) you state his latest models of the classic styles lack the "luster and luxury"

While those may be your OPINIONS, absent some data to support them, they are "unproven assertions".

Just because the guy on CNN says something, that's not proof it's it true or accurate. I have no issue with anyone having opinions, but representing an opinion as fact is not kosher...
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#69 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 11:16 PM

View Postmaverick, on 20 June 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

I have seen one Bettinardi and could care less how many I see nor do I care how many SC putters I see. As far as the tour you cannot compare the two because one company pays players to use their equipment and one does not.  If Bettinardi had as many Camerons on the tour they would have similar wins. It s just numbers. The more putters on tour=more wins. This simple concept seems to be beyond some here. I will again state what I did in a few posts ago. I am NOT saying anything negative about Scotty Cameron nor his putters, understand?

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#70 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 11:17 PM

View Postmaverick, on 20 June 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

I have seen one Bettinardi and could care less how many I see nor do I care how many SC putters I see. As far as the tour you cannot compare the two because one company pays players to use their equipment and one does not.  If Bettinardi had as many Camerons on the tour they would have similar wins. It s just numbers. The more putters on tour=more wins. This simple concept seems to be beyond some here. I will again state what I did in a few posts ago. I am NOT saying anything negative about Scotty Cameron nor his putters, understand?
Cameron isn't paying anyone to play his putters.

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#71 Matt J

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 09:15 AM

The free $3k Circle T could be interpreted as a form of compensation, but really pocket change for these guys.

Interesting Bushwood.  What about the Titleist staffers with a 13 club deal?

I'm not arguing with you, just curious.  I admittedly know nothing about golf sponsorship deals.


Edited by Matt J, 22 June 2017 - 09:15 AM.


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#72 Arpeggi

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 01:33 PM

View Postconversationpiece, on 15 June 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Is Scotty Cameron losing his grip on the putter industry? It seems so. Recent designs have shifted towards large mallets taking after other manufacturers. Even newer versions of classic designs such as the Newport have lost the luster and luxury feel that older models had. Is Titleist/Cameron shifting towards the mass-consumerist approach, chasing the profits and getting away from their roots? They may be chasing the $ now but in the end it may be a fatal blunder. The rise of custom putter companies and competition between them has made them more prevalent and much more popular. Scotty continues to keep putters locked up in the glass at retail stores while the newest Bettinardi line sits out next to it, asking to be tried out. What's the market for a Cameron putter now? Custom market is flooded with highly skilled putter makers alongside equal or greater quality milled putter companies at a lower pricepoint. The mid-price putter market is owned by Odyssey and even Cleveland. How much longer will people pay for the Scotty Cameron name?

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#73 Sean289

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 03:04 PM

If you like Scotty Camerons and they work for you, by all means play them. I can't doubt either that they're Tour proven.
I remember about 15 years ago members in my club were talking  about how good they were. They built these up as if they were the greatest thing since sliced bread and that they could nearly make the dinner for you as well.
I took my friend's Scotty to the putting green and I was bitterly disappointed. I think to this day, it makes me feel underwhelmed if I roll a Scotty. I think I was disappointed because I built it up in my head so much beforehand.
To the OP, I don't think this is the fall of Scotty, but his market share is proabably dwindling but still has a market share that's brings in big bucks.

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#74 ratdg1

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 11:19 PM

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 21 June 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

View Postmaverick, on 20 June 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

I have seen one Bettinardi and could care less how many I see nor do I care how many SC putters I see. As far as the tour you cannot compare the two because one company pays players to use their equipment and one does not.  If Bettinardi had as many Camerons on the tour they would have similar wins. It s just numbers. The more putters on tour=more wins. This simple concept seems to be beyond some here. I will again state what I did in a few posts ago. I am NOT saying anything negative about Scotty Cameron nor his putters, understand?
Cameron isn't paying anyone to play his putters.

Technically true, in that it's probably Titleist or Acushnet cutting the checks, but doesn't every OEM pay its staff?
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#75 maverick

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 11:38 PM

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 21 June 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

View Postmaverick, on 20 June 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

I have seen one Bettinardi and could care less how many I see nor do I care how many SC putters I see. As far as the tour you cannot compare the two because one company pays players to use their equipment and one does not.  If Bettinardi had as many Camerons on the tour they would have similar wins. It s just numbers. The more putters on tour=more wins. This simple concept seems to be beyond some here. I will again state what I did in a few posts ago. I am NOT saying anything negative about Scotty Cameron nor his putters, understand?
Cameron isn't paying anyone to play his putters.

You really think the tour players are paying thousands for SC putters you are in LALA land.  I will make myself a little clearer for the dense. I do not believe w/o precious stones or metal like gold or platinum there is not a putter made I would pay thousands for regardless of who made the putter. I have used Bridgeport manual mills and several CNC X,Y, Z milling machines and it's not that hard to mill a putter. It's all in the program. The machines does all the work. Ping designed almost all the popular head styles. Scotty Cameron had perfect timing. He separated from RJB to sign with Titleist. Then out comes this super golfer, Tiger Woods, and he games the new SC Titleist putter. He becomes the #1 golfer in the world welding his SC putter with the cameras zooming in for millions to see. Well, if the #1 player who is thrashing everyone is playing one I must have one. That is golfer mentality. Now several the top players are using the new Spider and they are flying off the shelves at $300.00 each with Circle Ts sitting around for thousands.
The reality is that the good tour putters could use any putter they want and their stats would most likely not change. Circle T putters miss the cup just like any other putter. JMHO and all I have to say on this since I do own a Newport 2.

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#76 Fairways to Heaven

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 02:29 AM

I have a Scotty from last year futura x7m and love it. Best putter ive ever owned. Yes not a classic Newport but great feel and works for me. Won't ever be leaving my bag....
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#77 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:23 AM

View Postratdg1, on 22 June 2017 - 11:19 PM, said:

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 21 June 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

View Postmaverick, on 20 June 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

I have seen one Bettinardi and could care less how many I see nor do I care how many SC putters I see. As far as the tour you cannot compare the two because one company pays players to use their equipment and one does not.  If Bettinardi had as many Camerons on the tour they would have similar wins. It s just numbers. The more putters on tour=more wins. This simple concept seems to be beyond some here. I will again state what I did in a few posts ago. I am NOT saying anything negative about Scotty Cameron nor his putters, understand?
Cameron isn't paying anyone to play his putters.

Technically true, in that it's probably Titleist or Acushnet cutting the checks, but doesn't every OEM pay its staff?
Titleist has,by far, the fewest number of true "staff" players (see their website) - but a lot of "ambassadors" who play their ball. They are notoriously stingy when it comes to that. However, I'm confident that Cameron is providing the putters to them for free, so technically they are receiving some form of compensation.

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#78 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:25 AM

No Professor, I don't think the PGA players are paying thousands for Cameron putters - I expect he provides them for free. However, I do not believe Cameron is paying anyone to use his putters either...
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#79 Thug Hunter

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:29 AM

View Posttangojay, on 16 June 2017 - 11:35 PM, said:

View Postpaperclip, on 16 June 2017 - 12:29 AM, said:

No, I don't really think so; after the golf equipment business burns down some more, many of the boutique guys will be gone and Scotty will still be around.

You do know that Don "T" Cameron does not the own the brand Scotty Cameron? If he were to start making putters (I am sure You realice he does not stamp all the putters he sells for several thousands) he could not use "Scotty Cameron" or "Cameron" on any of them?

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#80 dbleag

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:38 AM

View PostSean2, on 20 June 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

View PostShakester, on 19 June 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

I see the emergence of all these high end putter companies that are trying to get a piece of the market and they're succeeding to an extent.  But I feel Cameron will have his named stamped on a lot of putters on the tours.  More than anyone in the business as well.  He has proven products.  My Newport is 15 years old and it feels much nicer than most of these other putters that I've been trying and that includes the newer Camerons as well.

Say what you will, the guy makes good, solid, quality putters. Are they worth the price? That is for the potential customer to decide. However, I can't understand why some people rail against SC, or PXG for that matter. It's not like they are being forced to purchase his putters.

+1.

A good putter is worth as much or more than a good driver, yet we don't think twice about spending $400-$500 for the big stick.


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#81 TinCupping

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:40 AM

View Postplatgof, on 21 June 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

Cameron got to where he is because he has developed the quality expected in the Acushnet family of products. They are sought after and deliver the goods. I have bought other putters, but the feel of my "garden tool" is pretty amazing. Plus prices are pretty decent right now.

Cameron got to where he is because of Tiger Woods. If Tom Kite wins the '97 Masters and we never hear of Tiger Woods, Scotty Cameron is just another brand. Yes the company makes quality putters. I have an old 'Art of Putting' Newport and its a fine putter. But when you have a rockstar burst onto the scene the way Woods did, everybody wants to know what he used to do it and they wanna use what he used.
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#82 ratdg1

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:57 AM

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 23 June 2017 - 07:23 AM, said:

View Postratdg1, on 22 June 2017 - 11:19 PM, said:

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 21 June 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

View Postmaverick, on 20 June 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

I have seen one Bettinardi and could care less how many I see nor do I care how many SC putters I see. As far as the tour you cannot compare the two because one company pays players to use their equipment and one does not.  If Bettinardi had as many Camerons on the tour they would have similar wins. It s just numbers. The more putters on tour=more wins. This simple concept seems to be beyond some here. I will again state what I did in a few posts ago. I am NOT saying anything negative about Scotty Cameron nor his putters, understand?
Cameron isn't paying anyone to play his putters.

Technically true, in that it's probably Titleist or Acushnet cutting the checks, but doesn't every OEM pay its staff?
Titleist has,by far, the fewest number of true "staff" players (see their website) - but a lot of "ambassadors" who play their ball. They are notoriously stingy when it comes to that. However, I'm confident that Cameron is providing the putters to them for free, so technically they are receiving some form of compensation.


They should be getting paid for SC/Titleist using their likeness, though.  If all they get out of the deal is a putter and balls, they need new agents.
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#83 T-MAC

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 12:38 PM

View Postconversationpiece, on 20 June 2017 - 07:38 PM, said:

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 20 June 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

View Postconversationpiece, on 15 June 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Is Scotty Cameron losing his grip on the putter industry? It seems so. Recent designs have shifted towards large mallets taking after other manufacturers. Even newer versions of classic designs such as the Newport have lost the luster and luxury feel that older models had. Is Titleist/Cameron shifting towards the mass-consumerist approach, chasing the profits and getting away from their roots? They may be chasing the $ now but in the end it may be a fatal blunder. The rise of custom putter companies and competition between them has made them more prevalent and much more popular. Scotty continues to keep putters locked up in the glass at retail stores while the newest Bettinardi line sits out next to it, asking to be tried out. What's the market for a Cameron putter now? Custom market is flooded with highly skilled putter makers alongside equal or greater quality milled putter companies at a lower pricepoint. The mid-price putter market is owned by Odyssey and even Cleveland. How much longer will people pay for the Scotty Cameron name?
There more unproven assertions in this paragraph than a month's worth of CNN headlines... I've probably seen 3 Bettinardis on the course in 15 years, and about 20,000 Camerons.
I'll spell out my "unproven assertions". First off - never claimed that Bettinardi was more popular that Scotty, only that Scotty putters are locked away in glass at many retail stores (not all, but many). Bettinardi putters are not. As for Scotty shifting to mallets, take the Futura X, X5 and X7 as proof. They are clearly a response to Odyssey designs and have a bigger place in marketing than non-traditional Scotty designs of the past like the Detour or Futura Phantom. Not saying it's wrong for him to make those kind of putters, only that those garden-tool style clubs aren't exactly what comes to mind when you think of the putters that elevated Scotty to his current position. Talking about mid-range putters, obviously not Scotty's market but I believe it's obvious that Odyssey is king there. As for milled putter companies, Edel, Carbon, and Bettinardi coming in at $340 or less for the majority of their products, plus Kingston and SeeMore to a lesser degree. Truly custom companies like Byron aren't a big threat to Scotty but they are gaining steam compared to when Scotty was in his prime. I don't believe that Scotty sales are dropping right now, only that I predict it in the future.

Actually, the Edwin Watts near me has the Betti's locked in a case and the Cameron's on the floor so you can demo them.  Not sure if that proves anything about the putters or their companies, but not sure what you were trying to prove by that comment either.

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#84 Rory4Pres

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 01:16 PM

I love the 2017 Futura lineup.  SC's engineers indicate the dual alum/SS creates better MOI and I agree.  Yes, it would be nice if they would do plumber or slant necks on their mallets and 1 piece "old school" blades but I'm sure everyone is barking to provide every option and that's just not possible.  

Just note how many pro's use SC's on tour and tell me he's on a downslide...  Believe me, if players locked in contracts with TM or Callaway could use SC's, most would.

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#85 Vardon Grip

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 01:48 PM

I hate doing this, I really do, but Scotty will be fine,


because he's built like a linebacker.


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#86 RobotDoctor

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 08:07 PM

For crying out loud, another Scotty demise thread?  For the love of Pete, who cares?  :deadhorse:
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#87 hurricanes7

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 08:12 PM

the betti's with the honeycomb feel better then the scottys i have owned
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#88 MCCA

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 08:23 PM

View PostRobotDoctor, on 23 June 2017 - 08:07 PM, said:

For crying out loud, another Scotty demise thread?  For the love of Pete, who cares?  :deadhorse:

+++++1

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#89 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 09:26 PM

I didn't mean to suggest Titleist doesn't pay anyone, and I'm sure they pay their "staff players"... they just have a lot of "ambassadors" and not a ton of staff players.... it's the same reason that golf retailers can't discount. Retailers can't discount Titleist gear....they just run the Company a little differently.
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#90 platgof

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 10:01 PM

So who is winning this week, Rory? The announcer on the golf channel made the comment that Rory won't be playing that putter next week! LOL! Maybe he should just suck it up and get a Scotty.

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