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US Open on links style courses - booo


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#31 Dpavs

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 12:20 PM

From an article by Len Ziehm....

Erin Hills has no out of bounds, no water hazards, no forced carries and only five trees. Some will consider it as a links course, but it's not -- according to Michael Hurdzan, one of the three architects who created it.

"We have purposely avoided using the word 'links,' '' said Hurdzan, whose design partners were Dana Fry and Ron Whitten.
"It's a heartland course. We want to make sure that distinction is made. A heartland course is in between a parkland course and a links."

Edited by Dpavs, 14 June 2017 - 12:20 PM.


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#32 QuigleyDU

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 12:33 PM

ok, it still looks like a links course to me. i live in Nevada and play a lot of courses that do not have a single tree on them. they do not look like links courses. this looks like one even if it is not considered one. Not that it is a bad thing the course looks beautiful.
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#33 Forged4ever

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 12:36 PM

http://www.golfchann...dayNL_20170614b

Have a great day🍻
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#34 nochct1

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 12:44 PM

View Postbogeypro, on 14 June 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

I get that it may not be a "true" links style course...it is the US imitation of links golf...no trees, pot bunkers, tall heather like grass, large undulating greens, etc... Whatever happened to Baltustrol, Oakland HIlls, Inverness?

Not all private clubs want to have the US Open. It ruins one or more courses and by the time they come back, it's late summer. Members don't get access to the course for a few weeks leading up to the open. In some cases they request changes to the course.

Also, some of the old traditional courses don't have the land that places like Bethpage and Erin Hills have. The USGA wants as many corporate tents as possible. And they want a huge merchandise tent.

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#35 15th Club

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 01:20 PM

View Postbogeypro, on 14 June 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

I get that it may not be a "true" links style course...it is the US imitation of links golf...no trees, pot bunkers, tall heather like grass, large undulating greens, etc... Whatever happened to Baltustrol, Oakland HIlls, Inverness?

Um, when were you last at Oakland Hills?  They have removed about 400 trees.  After previously removing about 200 trees.

At Oakmont, they removed about 800 trees, right?

And that is how those courses were first laid out.  Have you seen aerials of Oakland Hills, and Oakmont, and even Augusta, when they were laid out by (respectively) Ross, Fownes and MacKenzie?  Even after the tree removal programs, there are more trees now than when Ross, Fownes and Dr. MacKenzie died.

As for Erin Hills, they did remove some trees.  But the land was more in the realm of "heathland" (somebody else wrote "heartland" and I presume that is a typo or a misnomer) than forestland.  It was in part farmland before the golf developers purchased it.

Edit. - I am leaving my original post as is, because I wrote what I wrote.  I now see that Mike Hurdzan used the word "heartland" in describing his course.  I have honestly never heard that term in connection with golf course architecture before.  I suspect that this is a new, and perhaps a personal marketing term from Hurdzan.

https://www.thoughtc...-course-1564176

Edited by 15th Club, 14 June 2017 - 01:24 PM.


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#36 amish

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 01:23 PM

I haven't seen it posted anywhere but someone on the golf channel insinuated that if Erin Hills does the job this week it would get in the US Open rota, perhaps be their midwest stop going forward. So much room to pitch tents.

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#37 doublehans

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 02:37 PM

View Postknock it close, on 14 June 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

View Postamish, on 14 June 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

I think people think it is a link style course because of the large unmowed areas.  The unmowed areas are becoming more frequent on many courses. Saves money in a variety of ways for the course. Also provides a more natural look. The unmowed areas take the place of rows of trees. You put it in the trees, alot of the time you are punching out. Same with the unmowed areas.
Unmowed also provides much better vistas over the rest of the course than trees do. Something about being able to stand on a highish tee and overlook the property and see the undulations of the land is much more appealing to me than seeing a wall of trees.

The unmoved areas and open vistas are great for tour courses or private clubs without heavy play, but for courses with a lot of play, trees are more practical. Even if you have to punch out, it's much easier to find your ball and play quickly. So the heather and trees can serve the same function, but a lot of courses would be hesitant to cut down trees in favor of unmoved areas simply for pace of play reasons.

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#38 Forged4ever

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 02:44 PM

View Postgvogel, on 14 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

They took out most of the trees at Oakmont.  DOES THAT MAKE IT A LINKS STYLE LAY OUT?
Actually yes, as a Fownes' original design objective back in 19002-03 was to create the finest and most difficult links style track on this side of the pond and the course stayed true to his initial design until the USGA wanted more trees in the mid 1950's, so Oakmont started the tree schtick from the late 50's into the mid/late 70's, and then between the 1983 Open and last year's Open, roughly 15,000+ trees were removed from the interior of the course, with just over half of those coming out prior to the 2007 Open. That is how Oakmont landed the 2003 US Am, which they co-hosted with my club, as sort of a carrot/stick" thingy for removing "x-amount" of trees.

The stick?

The USGA stated simply that if Oakmont didn't remove the trees and build a new bridge over the PA Turnpike to replace the small narrow archaic walking bridge that was long overdue to be replaced, they had seen their last major during a big powwow following the 1994 US Open.

The Oakmont Boys were reallllly pissed cuz they were not used to being told what to do, how to do it and when it had to be done by😂😂

The pics below highlight Fownes' original links layout versus the "Easternization(remember, we're the friggin idiots that actually wrote letters to Webster's on behalf of putting "yunz" in the dictionary ;) )" that took place from the 1950's through the 70's.

I actually miss the trees cuz I love the "eastern" look

The first pic is a shot from 18 tee in 1925, with the pic below it being from 1980

The 3rd/4th pics down are the fairway shots of the 7th hole with the 3rd pic being from 1983 and the 4th pic shot last year prior to the Open.

The 5th pic is the 4th hole and the storied "Pews," again, from the early 1920's and then the 5th and 6th shots are circa 1978-1979.

Hope that this helps :)

Have a Great day Gents🍻
RP

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Edited by Forged4ever, 14 June 2017 - 03:32 PM.

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#39 Bigarch

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 09:34 PM

I totally agree but got my head bit off in another thread for expressing that opinion.  This makes 3 US Opens in a row without a tree in play.  I'm just tired of it.

And while Erin Hills may be a great course...not going to get into that argument. I'm sure it is.  But, it's an artificial links style look that the USGA seems to have fallen in love with.  And then they try to tell us how much more environmentally friendly it is and easier to maintain.  B.S..  You know whats environmentally friendly and easy to maintain?  A TREE!
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#40 bogeypro

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 10:01 PM

Is Erin Hills trying to be an Irish links style course?

So Erin, Wisconsin.  Erin Hills... as is Irish or ireland hills....  

Let's look the logo...  For starters, the name Erin is the Irish name for Ireland.  The clover is also an Irish symbol.  So, the name and logo are meant to look Irish or maybe even make you think of something irish...like golf on Irish links style courses...aren't there mostly links courses in Ireland (never been there)?   Just a quick google image search of golf in ireland is a bunch of links courses...

Edited by bogeypro, 14 June 2017 - 10:05 PM.

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#41 bladehunter

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 10:06 PM

View PostForged4ever, on 14 June 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

View Postgvogel, on 14 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

They took out most of the trees at Oakmont.  DOES THAT MAKE IT A LINKS STYLE LAY OUT?
Actually yes, as a Fownes' original design objective back in 19002-03 was to create the finest and most difficult links style track on this side of the pond and the course stayed true to his initial design until the USGA wanted more trees in the mid 1950's, so Oakmont started the tree schtick from the late 50's into the mid/late 70's, and then between the 1983 Open and last year's Open, roughly 15,000+ trees were removed from the interior of the course, with just over half of those coming out prior to the 2007 Open. That is how Oakmont landed the 2003 US Am, which they co-hosted with my club, as sort of a carrot/stick" thingy for removing "x-amount" of trees.

The stick?

The USGA stated simply that if Oakmont didn't remove the trees and build a new bridge over the PA Turnpike to replace the small narrow archaic walking bridge that was long overdue to be replaced, they had seen their last major during a big powwow following the 1994 US Open.

The Oakmont Boys were reallllly pissed cuz they were not used to being told what to do, how to do it and when it had to be done by😂😂

The pics below highlight Fownes' original links layout versus the "Easternization(remember, we're the friggin idiots that actually wrote letters to Webster's on behalf of putting "yunz" in the dictionary ;) )" that took place from the 1950's through the 70's.

I actually miss the trees cuz I love the "eastern" look

The first pic is a shot from 18 tee in 1925, with the pic below it being from 1980

The 3rd/4th pics down are the fairway shots of the 7th hole with the 3rd pic being from 1983 and the 4th pic shot last year prior to the Open.

The 5th pic is the 4th hole and the storied "Pews," again, from the early 1920's and then the 5th and 6th shots are circa 1978-1979.

Hope that this helps :)

Have a Great day Gents🍻
RP

Wel there you have it from the horses mouth.  Of course Erin hills is a quasi attempt at a links style layout. Why deny it ?
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#42 Forged4ever

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 10:48 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 14 June 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

View PostForged4ever, on 14 June 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

View Postgvogel, on 14 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

They took out most of the trees at Oakmont.  DOES THAT MAKE IT A LINKS STYLE LAY OUT?
Actually yes, as a Fownes' original design objective back in 19002-03 was to create the finest and most difficult links style track on this side of the pond and the course stayed true to his initial design until the USGA wanted more trees in the mid 1950's, so Oakmont started the tree schtick from the late 50's into the mid/late 70's, and then between the 1983 Open and last year's Open, roughly 15,000+ trees were removed from the interior of the course, with just over half of those coming out prior to the 2007 Open. That is how Oakmont landed the 2003 US Am, which they co-hosted with my club, as sort of a carrot/stick" thingy for removing "x-amount" of trees.

The stick?

The USGA stated simply that if Oakmont didn't remove the trees and build a new bridge over the PA Turnpike to replace the small narrow archaic walking bridge that was long overdue to be replaced, they had seen their last major during a big powwow following the 1994 US Open.

The Oakmont Boys were reallllly pissed cuz they were not used to being told what to do, how to do it and when it had to be done by😂😂

The pics below highlight Fownes' original links layout versus the "Easternization(remember, we're the friggin idiots that actually wrote letters to Webster's on behalf of putting "yunz" in the dictionary ;) )" that took place from the 1950's through the 70's.

I actually miss the trees cuz I love the "eastern" look

The first pic is a shot from 18 tee in 1925, with the pic below it being from 1980

The 3rd/4th pics down are the fairway shots of the 7th hole with the 3rd pic being from 1983 and the 4th pic shot last year prior to the Open.

The 5th pic is the 4th hole and the storied "Pews," again, from the early 1920's and then the 5th and 6th shots are circa 1978-1979.

Hope that this helps :)

Have a Great day Gents🍻
RP

Wel there you have it from the horses mouth.  Of course Erin hills is a quasi attempt at a links style layout. Why deny it ?
HaHa, maybe the Jackarse's mouth, lol😂😂

I don't know anything about Erin Hillls and am speaking to what seems to be the "flavor of the year" with the USGA.

Bogie and you guys seem to know a bit about Erin Hills, plus that fits into my thoughts and opinion, so that makes it all the better😜

Madison calls it "selective support," though I call it "crowd confirmation" and If I'm in the majority, then they're correct, if not, then they're mindless sheep😂

Needless to say she's blocked me from her phone that last day and a half ;)

Women😜😂

I hope that you and yours are well Bro🍻
Richard

Edited by Forged4ever, 14 June 2017 - 10:49 PM.

~ Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely pretty and with a well preserved body but to skid in broad side, thoroughly used up and totally worn and out loudly proclaiming "WOW, what a fackin ride!!!"

Remember.....

There ain't no mulligans Gents 🍻


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#43 Loki

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 10:59 PM

Looks like a links...feels like a links...plays like a links (played it)...it must be a links...

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#44 FargoRC

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 11:08 PM

This country has a lot of courses of this style, why not play it's national title on one of them from time to time. If I only played parkland or woodland courses my choices would be rather limited.

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#45 mallrat

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 11:32 PM

This sounds like a different discussion about modern course design instead of where the US Open is held.

Should there be a new category or 2 for these new types of courses? Not everything fits into a parkland or links category, maybe call this style a Dunes course? Someone said a prairie course earlier.

IMO, we need to change the box not really think outside of it but with Streamsong, Sand Valley, Erin Hills., I just think there should be a new category


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#46 bobfoster

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 12:54 AM

It is nice to fit things into categories, but a lot of the courses I've played in the world do not.

What category of course Erin Hills is - doesn't matter a whole to me. What actually matters is whether it produces interesting golf. I have a feeling it will.

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#47 Short Pete

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 02:36 AM

Linksland is the area near the sea thak LINKS the beach area with the inland, an area which is mostly sandy, has almost no trees, the soil is sandy, typically heather and scrubby bushes grow there. Golf courses on linksland use the undulations the area gives them,

Erin Hills and Shinnecock have nothing to do with linksland golf. They are treeless golf courses with high grass between the playing areas. Even Pebble Beach is not linksland golf because there is no linksland in Monterey. Chambers Bay is moonland golf, not linksland golf.

But seriously, who cares? Gategorizing everything seems to get more and more important. (I would never do it!! Oh by the way, I bought a nice new famly sports SUV coupe yesterday:-) ) Erin Hills seems to fit well into its surrounding, let's see what the pros do with it. I like the look of this course, I do not like some of its design futures like these bowl style greens which provide a real challenge for the US Open contestants but are often too difficult to approach for the everyday player. Other than that, it looks cool to me, a difficult course in the prairie land.

Prepare the course in a way that is fair yet demanding, and then let the games begin! Who cares about the category?
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#48 MattyO1984

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 03:08 AM

View PostLoki, on 14 June 2017 - 10:59 PM, said:

Looks like a links...feels like a links...plays like a links (played it)...it must be a links...

I accept that it looks like a link, I don't know if it feels like a links (my guess is probably not) and it most certainly does not play like a links.

Below is a picture of what I understand to be the 9th green. Links courses allow you to play the ball along the ground and roll it onto the green rather than fly it...good luck trying to play it like a links and roll it up onto the green here.

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#49 Dave230

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 03:32 AM

View Postbogeypro, on 14 June 2017 - 10:01 PM, said:

Is Erin Hills trying to be an Irish links style course?

So Erin, Wisconsin.  Erin Hills... as is Irish or ireland hills....  

Let's look the logo...  For starters, the name Erin is the Irish name for Ireland.  The clover is also an Irish symbol.  So, the name and logo are meant to look Irish or maybe even make you think of something irish...like golf on Irish links style courses...aren't there mostly links courses in Ireland (never been there)?   Just a quick google image search of golf in ireland is a bunch of links courses...

No Ireland is mainly parkland courses, just that the links courses are the highest rated (Royal County Down, Royal Portrush, Portmarnock, Tralee etc). In fact, on a a list of the top 20 courses in Ireland, you'll probably get 15 links courses. But there's still more parklands throughout the country.

Any projection of Ireland to the world will big up links golf because it's something unique to Ireland and Britain. There's some nice parklands but nobody from America wants to play parkland when there's thousands of similar courses in the US, they want to play links. So the tourism ads adapt accordingly.

There are a few courses like this one (not of this size), that are sometimes called 'inland links', which is really just an excuse to throw in the word links. Erin Hills looks like it could be an 'inland links' if you wanted it to be.

Edited by Dave230, 15 June 2017 - 03:34 AM.


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#50 HighSpeedScene

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 03:54 AM

Seems like just an aesthetic argument - replace the long stuff with trees and nobody would be calling it a links-style course.

Plays like your garden variety parkland course - it's all through the air.

It's BIG and kind of fun, but it's no links.

But I think this argument is just people that don't like the trend in courses - scraggly shaped bunkers, long grass, rumpled, undulating fairways, etc.


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#51 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 06:04 AM

Heartland vs Links... Sort of like Sparkling Wine vs Champagne. Look and taste pretty much the same.

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#52 JohnnyCashForever

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 06:09 AM

View PostDpavs, on 14 June 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

From an article by Len Ziehm....

Erin Hills has no out of bounds, no water hazards, no forced carries...

Maybe my definition of a "forced carry" is different than Mr. Ziehm's, but from the overhead shots, it appears that every non-par 3 tee shot is a forced carry of some length to reach the fairway.

https://erinhills.co...f/hole-by-hole/

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#53 krtgolfing

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 06:11 AM

I am fine with the US Open going to Erin Hills and Chambers Bay. Chambers bay was a disaster due to greens that were on cheap municipal levels of bad. I enjoy seeing new courses every year. Weather is be a links type, heathland, parkland.. Whatever... I do not see people complaining about Shinnecock hills and that course is very linksy.
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#54 Lagavulin62

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 06:28 AM

I like it.  But I know I am in the minority as I never was a big fan of the US Open. So it's nice to watch something different. Call it what you want for course style. Who cares?

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#55 JohnnyCashForever

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 06:39 AM

View Postthegrayman, on 14 June 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

It's still the best farm course I've ever seen.

I like this description.  I've played many public courses where the holes were laid out on what was previously a farm.  In my experience, these courses are characterized by being in the middle of nowhere, very little terraforming of the existing landscape to create the course, a few trees here and there, perhaps an old pond or two, and (to be charitable) usually a decidedly minimalist approach to course design.  Erin Hills appears to fit the mold, with the exception that they took the course design aspect up dozens of notches.  Hopefully, this US Open will show how good a farm course can be.


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#56 reg1900

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 07:09 AM

What is the USGAs obsession with fake, overly contrived and manufactured links style courses? Do they wish they were the British Open?

The tiny 1ft sections where you can't come close to hitting a shot in the bunker next to the 9th Green is just stupid. If USGA want a US Open that is scandal and drama free stop choosing these types of courses.

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#57 teejaywhy

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 07:36 AM

View PostForged4ever, on 14 June 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

View Postgvogel, on 14 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

They took out most of the trees at Oakmont.  DOES THAT MAKE IT A LINKS STYLE LAY OUT?
Actually yes, as a Fownes' original design objective back in 19002-03 was to create the finest and most difficult links style track on this side of the pond and the course stayed true to his initial design until the USGA wanted more trees in the mid 1950's, so Oakmont started the tree schtick from the late 50's into the mid/late 70's, and then between the 1983 Open and last year's Open, roughly 15,000+ trees were removed from the interior of the course, with just over half of those coming out prior to the 2007 Open. That is how Oakmont landed the 2003 US Am, which they co-hosted with my club, as sort of a carrot/stick" thingy for removing "x-amount" of trees.

The stick?

The USGA stated simply that if Oakmont didn't remove the trees and build a new bridge over the PA Turnpike to replace the small narrow archaic walking bridge that was long overdue to be replaced, they had seen their last major during a big powwow following the 1994 US Open.

The Oakmont Boys were reallllly pissed cuz they were not used to being told what to do, how to do it and when it had to be done by����

...
Have a Great day Gents��
RP

Richard, you are certainly closer to the source than I,  but I suspect that members unhappy with the change are promoting the "USGA made us do it" line.  I credit forward thinking leadership in the club recognizing the benefits of returning the masterpiece to its original glory.

No doubt about the USGA influence on the bridge however.

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#58 teejaywhy

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 07:52 AM

Can't understand why people can't embrace variety.  Our nation has a vast diversity of landscapes, why is one style "correct?"

Is the USGA perhaps premature in fast-tracking new venues?  There may be merit to that argument.

But to say the US Open should only be played on a tree-lined traditional parkland course is just closed-minded.

I welcome the change.

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#59 Bad9

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 07:54 AM

View Postbogeypro, on 14 June 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

I get that it may not be a "true" links style course...it is the US imitation of links golf...no trees, pot bunkers, tall heather like grass, large undulating greens, etc... Whatever happened to Baltustrol, Oakland HIlls, Inverness?

Baltusrol did host the PGA last year

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#60 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 07:56 AM

View Postrorygilmore9, on 14 June 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Erin Hills is not a links course..........

........

Its a "heartland" type course

It's not a links course, it's a links style course (you have to admit, Erin Hills is more like a links course than Freedom Franks are like actual liberty).

Did you mean 'heathland'? (Do we even have heathland?)


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