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Is PUREing still relevant in 2017?


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#61 RBF82

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 11:34 PM

I like following this topic just for humor.
I think the truth lies in more then just these two pieces of a club build.  If your just testing shafts randomly to find something there is no point I think doing the whole pure and flo,  because percentage wise there is a very low number of shafts that work well for each person once tested on course and trackman.

I have had 5 iron sets and metal wood sets built by cool clubs and I admit they are the best I have played.  They gap and flight the way that works best for me because they were data confirmed.  
To me it comes down to having all the specs dialed in, which includes puring and flo’ing
With a full Spec’d club you are going to get the best results because chance and luck are being removed by the process using hard data to get results for each person.

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#62 Howard Jones

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 12:48 AM

View Postpinhigh27, on 12 June 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

View PostHoward Jones, on 12 June 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

View Postrybo, on 12 June 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

Go look at Tollbros post on Big Bad Low Spin Shaft Review, 13 shafts producing spin ranges with differences of 750-1,000 RPM's from low to high spin all with the same head, ball, Trackman, etc for each of the golfers.  Would Pureing or Floing help or hurt these differences in performance?  Don't know

That test is interesting, but have several weaknesses.
To be able to judge "anything" on a driver, IMPACT SPOT is needed.
We like to think "bending properties" is the only impact a shaft might have but thats wrong.
The feel factor is important, and changes the way a player swing the club, and by that the delivery of the club head to the ball, so the shaft deliver more than "bending", but bending itself is a part of it all.

Depending on what specs that really fits each player in the test, and what ACTUAL specs the shaft used had the way it was installed, vs what specs that same shaft could have on strong vs weak is not a question we are able to answer, but if specs on weak or strong line was a better fit, it would work better, its that simple. For a player with a late release and a tad to high launch and dynamic loft the strong FLO line, deepening on how much stronger, could have tuned his launch conditions just right, or for another, the soft line.

We did not know what was the right shaft for them in the first place, so a test like you suggest, should be done after we made a club that really fits the player, and then make a duplicate, but with a shaft "off specs". Only then would the test be valid, any other attempt would be a shot in the dark where any of the shafts could "win" because it by coincidence was the closest on actual specs to what fits the player

or you can just hit the ball and score 99 % the same regardless of fitting. it just seems to me you guys are selling fitting and puring like it takes a 15 from a 5. You talk about OEMs trying to sell clubs but I don't see fitters as much different. I play pretty much the same with everything as long as the shaft is somewhere in the right ballpark for me.

Nobody here has told that PURE or FLO is important for your score, or how much better you can score, those claims is all yours, not mine.
I can make you a driver you hit longer and straiter than any club you have hit before, but its not the same as your score will be lower, you can still mess it all up yourself, yes even from the tee box with that club.

Over and over again, ive tried to explain that this is a quality control, and then you admit...."I play pretty much the same with everything as long as the shaft is somewhere in the right ballpark for me."....so what would happen if the shaft you love and play good, was delivered 1 flex to soft or 1 flex to stiff? Thats what this is all about, to prevent a "flyer" or a shaft off specs to be delivered when we know what fits the player. its simply a quality control to make it right and prevent the errors that might happen if we dont,

The most sold Dynamic Gold shafts on the Tour is the Tour Issue model, not the standard. Just ask yourself why?.....a hint, its NOT the labels.:-)

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#63 Stuart G.

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 04:16 AM

View PostHoward Jones, on 13 June 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

The most sold Dynamic Gold shafts on the Tour is the Tour Issue model, not the standard. Just ask yourself why?.....a hint, its NOT the labels.:-)

Because weight is way more important then flex  - and they don't have to pay anything for them  :-)

Sorry couldn't resist.

Edited by Stuart G., 13 June 2017 - 04:16 AM.


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#64 cristphoto

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 08:25 AM

I don't have an opinion either way but here is my thought. I watched the video showing the guy flexing the shaft in the machine snd showing the different "wobble" patterns. However the golf swing doesn't replicate that motion (flexing head and stationary grip). The shaft isn't wobbling back and forth during the backswing and downswing in an actual golf swing. I base this on watching the slo-mo replays of players swings on tv. I relate this to the option of paying extra to having my cars tires balanced to 150mph vs 100mph. If I never drive over 70mph will I gain any benefit? Maybe.

Edited by cristphoto, 13 June 2017 - 08:30 AM.


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#65 Howard Jones

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 10:23 AM

View PostStuart G., on 13 June 2017 - 04:16 AM, said:

View PostHoward Jones, on 13 June 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

The most sold Dynamic Gold shafts on the Tour is the Tour Issue model, not the standard. Just ask yourself why?.....a hint, its NOT the labels.:-)

Because weight is way more important then flex
Sorry couldn't resist.

And one way to get "the right weight" is simply control and sorting, and on steel shafts, more weight on the same model/profile = stronger flex, so its both a better weight and flex match.

View PostStuart G., on 13 June 2017 - 04:16 AM, said:

View PostHoward Jones, on 13 June 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

The most sold Dynamic Gold shafts on the Tour is the Tour Issue model, not the standard. Just ask yourself why?.....a hint, its NOT the labels.:-)

- and they don't have to pay anything for them  :-)

Sorry couldn't resist.

TT claims they dont have any players sponsored with shafts.

.....
We could also look at "Tour issue" heads from TM as one example.
All with "true specs" for Loft, Lie and Face angle, some even with C.T or COR value, so how could anyone think the best players in the world just get a "random shaft from the box", when they found the model they wants to play?

Edited by Howard Jones, 13 June 2017 - 10:34 AM.


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#66 Stuart G.

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 10:32 AM

View PostHoward Jones, on 13 June 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

TT claims they dont have any players sponsored with shafts.

I believe it.  That means they don't pay the players to use their shafts.

That's not the same as not making them actually have to buy the shafts they use like us normal folks have to do  - which is what I was jokingly referring to.

Edited by Stuart G., 13 June 2017 - 10:34 AM.


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#67 fredwds

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 08:38 PM

I have a set of mp60s pured. Every iron feels like something is "just right". I have a set of mp64s not pured and they feel different. I have them setup the same as the 60s. For $16 to get pureing it cant hurt. Even my friends say "where are the irons you had before. You threw darts with them" also all my wear spots are like the pic. Posted Image

Edited by fredwds, 13 June 2017 - 08:38 PM.

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#68 apprenti23

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 05:40 AM

View PostPure745, on 12 June 2017 - 11:09 PM, said:

I've paid more than I'd like to admit to have Cool Clubs build some irons for me, also have had irons built by OEM tour departments etc.. I can't tell the difference.  I will say that paying the extra for the "whole enchilada" from Cool Clubs were some of the best builds I have had.  All irons frequency matched, SW, everything just 100% spot on was reassuring.. Pure'ing itself, I won't pay extra for, but if it's offered at no cost, will choose to have it done.

All the money you spend on golf clubs and you're going to cheap out on an extra couple hundred??? HA!!!! You kill me dude

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#69 sneaky_pete

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 06:10 AM

I spine align and flo all my builds.  Does it make a difference?  I don't know.  

There are threads here where Tom Wishon has commented on the benefits of spine alignment for shafts based on work he did a long time ago.  Is it still relevant today?  I bought TT XP115 shafts for my irons and they have a definite spine in them.  On that basis alone I spine aligned and flo'd them.

Does it do any harm?  Nope - it definitely can't hurt.
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#70 Stuart G.

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 06:47 AM

View Postsneaky_pete, on 14 June 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

Does it do any harm?  Nope - it definitely can't hurt.

Assuming it's done correctly, that's likely true.  

But there is tons of mis-information out there on how to properly find the spine and if not done properly (e.g. FLO w/o checking frequency), worst case is that you could end up with a mix of weak and strong aligned shafts that could result in the flex being poorly matched in the iron set. Sure it could happen anyways w/o any checks but that's very random and the poor job actually increases the chances that you'll end up with the largest possible amount of mis-match.

Edited by Stuart G., 14 June 2017 - 06:48 AM.


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#71 sneaky_pete

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 07:06 AM

View PostStuart G., on 14 June 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

View Postsneaky_pete, on 14 June 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

Does it do any harm?  Nope - it definitely can't hurt.

Assuming it's done correctly, that's likely true.  

But there is tons of mis-information out there on how to properly find the spine and if not done properly (e.g. FLO w/o checking frequency), worst case is that you could end up with a mix of weak and strong aligned shafts that could result in the flex being poorly matched in the iron set. Sure it could happen anyways w/o any checks but that's very random and the poor job actually increases the chances that you'll end up with the largest possible amount of mis-match.

I appreciate what you are saying.  Surely some effort put into making a consistent set has got to be better than just grabbing shafts, trimming and prepping, and then just throwing them into a set of irons.  Do manufacturers do anything to get consistency into a set of irons or do they simply rely on the QA of the shaft manufacturer?  

I don't how the randomness of doing no checks at all is going to be better than a poor job of spine aligning and flo'ing.  

I am not a pro club builder - just do it as a hobby on my own gear.  I like to tinker :)
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#72 Stuart G.

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 07:35 AM

View Postsneaky_pete, on 14 June 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

Do manufacturers do anything to get consistency into a set of irons or do they simply rely on the QA of the shaft manufacturer?  

They generally rely on the QA of the shaft manufacturers - and from what I've seen, a higher percentage of players think having the labels aligned uniformly is much more important then any QA type matching.   So would probably get more complaints if they did try.

View Postsneaky_pete, on 14 June 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

I don't how the randomness of doing no checks at all is going to be better than a poor job of spine aligning and flo'ing.  

Well when no checks are done, it's always a random result so anything is possible.. but because FLO'ing finds both the weak and the strong axis, if not done properly the shafts will always be "aligned" (misleading term since it implies there is one right or proper way to align the spines - but that's my own pet peeve) using either the strong or the weak axis - never anything in between. Which one is used will be random but anytime there is jump between a weak and a strong axis alignment, that will likely give the biggest possible freq difference between two clubs in the set. Statistically speaking, with random orientations, the difference will typically be smaller.

And no, I'm not confusing spine alignment with frequency matching.   As Howard mentioned, they are related but just matching spine alignment by itself doesn't mean or guarantee frequency matching.

Edited by Stuart G., 14 June 2017 - 07:37 AM.


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#73 sneaky_pete

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 08:21 AM

View PostStuart G., on 14 June 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:


Well when no checks are done, it's always a random result so anything is possible.. but because FLO'ing finds both the weak and the strong axis, if not done properly the shafts will always be "aligned" (misleading term since it implies there is one right or proper way to align the spines - but that's my own pet peeve) using either the strong or the weak axis - never anything in between. Which one is used will be random but anytime there is jump between a weak and a strong axis alignment, that will likely give the biggest possible freq difference between two clubs in the set. Statistically speaking, with random orientations, the difference will typically be smaller.


OK, I see what you are saying now - makes sense.
Ping G LS Tec 9* Matrix Ozik HD 6M3 Black Tie Shaft X-Stiff
Adams Speedline Super S Fairway 15* Matrix Ozik HD Radix S VI Shaft Stiff Flex
Mizuno Fli-Hi II 18* Driving Iron Mizuno Exsar Shaft Stiff Flex
Mizuno MX-200 Irons 3 - PW True Temper XP115 S300 Shafts
Cleveland RTX 3.0 V-MG Wedges 52* & 58*  Stock Wedge Shafts
Yes Milly C-Grove Putter fitted with Iomic MidSize Grip (Yellow)
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#74 Pure745

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 08:51 PM

View Postapprenti23, on 14 June 2017 - 05:40 AM, said:

View PostPure745, on 12 June 2017 - 11:09 PM, said:

I've paid more than I'd like to admit to have Cool Clubs build some irons for me, also have had irons built by OEM tour departments etc.. I can't tell the difference.  I will say that paying the extra for the "whole enchilada" from Cool Clubs were some of the best builds I have had.  All irons frequency matched, SW, everything just 100% spot on was reassuring.. Pure'ing itself, I won't pay extra for, but if it's offered at no cost, will choose to have it done.

All the money you spend on golf clubs and you're going to cheap out on an extra couple hundred??? HA!!!! You kill me dude

If I told you how much it cost for me to have a set built with shafts I provided to them, you'd kill them.  What's that saying with the fleecing and skinning of sheep?
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#75 Howard Jones

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:55 PM

View PostStuart G., on 14 June 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

View Postsneaky_pete, on 14 June 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

Do manufacturers do anything to get consistency into a set of irons or do they simply rely on the QA of the shaft manufacturer?  

They generally rely on the QA of the shaft manufacturers - and from what I've seen, a higher percentage of players think having the labels aligned uniformly is much more important then any QA type matching.   So would probably get more complaints if they did try.

View Postsneaky_pete, on 14 June 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

I don't how the randomness of doing no checks at all is going to be better than a poor job of spine aligning and flo'ing.  

Well when no checks are done, it's always a random result so anything is possible.. but because FLO'ing finds both the weak and the strong axis, if not done properly the shafts will always be "aligned" (misleading term since it implies there is one right or proper way to align the spines - but that's my own pet peeve) using either the strong or the weak axis - never anything in between. Which one is used will be random but anytime there is jump between a weak and a strong axis alignment, that will likely give the biggest possible freq difference between two clubs in the set. Statistically speaking, with random orientations, the difference will typically be smaller.

And no, I'm not confusing spine alignment with frequency matching.   As Howard mentioned, they are related but just matching spine alignment by itself doesn't mean or guarantee frequency matching.

Here is a example of what options we got when we know CPM after FLO test with CPM
Its a set of Monaco, measured to weak and strong from line, so depending on what side we use target line, we end up with different CPM slopes.
For this set ive suggested a flex slope where weak and strong line is mixed to get a good slope in the set as a whole, and that slope is to the right
The set ID is wrong this set is TX flex.

http://www.golfwrx.c...-1409338346.jpg


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#76 JCAG

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:26 PM

View PostHoward Jones, on 19 June 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 14 June 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

View Postsneaky_pete, on 14 June 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

Do manufacturers do anything to get consistency into a set of irons or do they simply rely on the QA of the shaft manufacturer?  

They generally rely on the QA of the shaft manufacturers - and from what I've seen, a higher percentage of players think having the labels aligned uniformly is much more important then any QA type matching.   So would probably get more complaints if they did try.

View Postsneaky_pete, on 14 June 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

I don't how the randomness of doing no checks at all is going to be better than a poor job of spine aligning and flo'ing.  

Well when no checks are done, it's always a random result so anything is possible.. but because FLO'ing finds both the weak and the strong axis, if not done properly the shafts will always be "aligned" (misleading term since it implies there is one right or proper way to align the spines - but that's my own pet peeve) using either the strong or the weak axis - never anything in between. Which one is used will be random but anytime there is jump between a weak and a strong axis alignment, that will likely give the biggest possible freq difference between two clubs in the set. Statistically speaking, with random orientations, the difference will typically be smaller.

And no, I'm not confusing spine alignment with frequency matching.   As Howard mentioned, they are related but just matching spine alignment by itself doesn't mean or guarantee frequency matching.

Here is a example of what options we got when we know CPM after FLO test with CPM
Its a set of Monaco, measured to weak and strong from line, so depending on what side we use target line, we end up with different CPM slopes.
For this set ive suggested a flex slope where weak and strong line is mixed to get a good slope in the set as a whole, and that slope is to the right
The set ID is wrong this set is TX flex.

http://www.golfwrx.c...-1409338346.jpg

Howard

While there is a difference in CPM, I do not believe it is enough to effect performance nor feel.

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