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Biggest Misses on Golf Digest 2017 State Rankings

rankings golf digest golf courses

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#91 Conrad1953

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 11:52 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 09 June 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

View Postmoonshine, on 07 June 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

I think putting The Judge above both Grand National courses in AL is a joke.  Hard...yes.  Good...LOL.  They left off Farm Links and it is way better than Judge as well.  I think Willow Point belongs on the list not a bad hole and many on the second 9 right on the water.

I've only played a few courses in AL but am surprised that Ross Bridge didn't make the top ten.  I thought it was really nice.

The Judge just has the rep as a tough course. People come play it to get beat up, lol.

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#92 CMCSGolf

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:51 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 16 June 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

View PostCMCSGolf, on 15 June 2017 - 11:00 PM, said:

I'll accept it's tough/impossible to separate a course from immediate surroundings like oceans.  Sure the 18th at Pebble would be a lot less cool if it were just a bunker down the left side.  It would be nearly impossible to value the hole properly without accounting for the ocean.

However, I will disagree about history and other things that do not affect how the course plays. Is a golf course really better because Jack or Tiger made a put on that green?  It might be fun to say you've been there and see those spots, but if we are making a ranking of golf courses this should not be accounted for.  By critically thinking about the merits of holes, a good eye can properly judge a course without taking into account history or other ancillary parts of the experience that do not involve the 18 holes played.

There may be some latent appreciation or excitement over history that can't be overcome.  But to explicitly take this into account changes the conversation from assessing golf course to something else.

The history of the course absolutely affects the golfing experience.  It may not affect how you play the course, but for me, it contributes to enjoyment of the event.  If The Old Course were not a few hundred years old, it would get a fraction of the attention it gets today.  

I think one issue is that we are talking about some very different objectives when evaluating courses.

1.  Evaluate the course design (which is what Golfweek and Golf Digest does.  They rank based only on course design.

2.  Evaluate the entire experience including layout, conditioning, shot values, variety of holes, beautiful views, history, caddies, clubhouse, and the quality of the staff (which is how I rank my favorite courses).

I completely agree.  I think a lot of people equate ranking a golf course and ranking an experience, when I see them as two different things.   Almost all of these debates and rankings are phrased as "best golf course" in America, or state, etc.  But then we factor in History and other things that are not the golf course.  More clear definitions of what we are ranking would erase a lot of the issues.

I have no doubt a day at Augusta would be one of the best experiences of my life.  But when I rank/judge the course (if that is what we are doing) I should not factor in the walk through the Champions locker room, my lunch on the patio overlooking the 1st tee, etc.  Those would all be undeniably awesome experiences, but I would try not to include them when I rate the course.  It would be tough, but if we clearly state we are rating an experience or the course, there might be more agreement in the various lists.

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#93 raynorfan1

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 04:31 PM

View PostCMCSGolf, on 18 June 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 16 June 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

View PostCMCSGolf, on 15 June 2017 - 11:00 PM, said:

I'll accept it's tough/impossible to separate a course from immediate surroundings like oceans.  Sure the 18th at Pebble would be a lot less cool if it were just a bunker down the left side.  It would be nearly impossible to value the hole properly without accounting for the ocean.

However, I will disagree about history and other things that do not affect how the course plays. Is a golf course really better because Jack or Tiger made a put on that green?  It might be fun to say you've been there and see those spots, but if we are making a ranking of golf courses this should not be accounted for.  By critically thinking about the merits of holes, a good eye can properly judge a course without taking into account history or other ancillary parts of the experience that do not involve the 18 holes played.

There may be some latent appreciation or excitement over history that can't be overcome.  But to explicitly take this into account changes the conversation from assessing golf course to something else.

The history of the course absolutely affects the golfing experience.  It may not affect how you play the course, but for me, it contributes to enjoyment of the event.  If The Old Course were not a few hundred years old, it would get a fraction of the attention it gets today.  

I think one issue is that we are talking about some very different objectives when evaluating courses.

1.  Evaluate the course design (which is what Golfweek and Golf Digest does.  They rank based only on course design.

2.  Evaluate the entire experience including layout, conditioning, shot values, variety of holes, beautiful views, history, caddies, clubhouse, and the quality of the staff (which is how I rank my favorite courses).

I completely agree.  I think a lot of people equate ranking a golf course and ranking an experience, when I see them as two different things.   Almost all of these debates and rankings are phrased as "best golf course" in America, or state, etc.  But then we factor in History and other things that are not the golf course.  More clear definitions of what we are ranking would erase a lot of the issues.

I have no doubt a day at Augusta would be one of the best experiences of my life.  But when I rank/judge the course (if that is what we are doing) I should not factor in the walk through the Champions locker room, my lunch on the patio overlooking the 1st tee, etc.  Those would all be undeniably awesome experiences, but I would try not to include them when I rate the course.  It would be tough, but if we clearly state we are rating an experience or the course, there might be more agreement in the various lists.

There are two things that I like about the Golf Digest approach to this problem:

(1) theirs is the 100 "greatest" courses in America. "Greatness," to me, implies an element of subjectivity that's different from "best".

(2) they're reasonably transparent about the methodology. I might not agree with it, but at least I understand it.

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#94 CMCSGolf

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:02 PM

Raynorfan, that's a really interesting point.  I've always assumed best = greatest, but perhaps that is not true as I think about it more.

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#95 * J Y *

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:31 PM

For me best = most enjoyable. I enjoy a course with great natural beauty. I enjoy a course with thoughtful design to challenge players. I enjoy a course that is kept in great shape. I enjoy a course that highlights the natural surroundings. I enjoy a course that punishes me when I play poorly and rewards me when I play well. And yes, I enjoy playing a course that I know some of golf's greatest have played.


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#96 gr00vetech

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:27 PM

It's great to see Bay Hill not in the the top 30 in Florida. WAY overrated golf course and without Arnie around it fell right off the list.

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#97 Roadking2003

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:43 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 18 June 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

There are two things that I like about the Golf Digest approach to this problem:

(1) theirs is the 100 "greatest" courses in America. "Greatness," to me, implies an element of subjectivity that's different from "best".

(2) they're reasonably transparent about the methodology. I might not agree with it, but at least I understand it.

All ratings are subjective.  A well defined rating methodology makes it less so, but in the end they are all subjective. I agree that "greatness" is an expanded or more all inclusive rating that also includes history, view, beauty, etc.

View Post* J Y *, on 18 June 2017 - 05:31 PM, said:

For me best = most enjoyable. I enjoy a course with great natural beauty. I enjoy a course with thoughtful design to challenge players. I enjoy a course that is kept in great shape. I enjoy a course that highlights the natural surroundings. I enjoy a course that punishes me when I play poorly and rewards me when I play well. And yes, I enjoy playing a course that I know some of golf's greatest have played.

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#98 Roadking2003

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:57 AM

View PostFairwayFred, on 18 June 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

It's not even fair to say you are evaluating the course.  That's misleading. You are evaluating your personal experience that day including many things that could and will change from one visit to the next.  Anyone that reads your opinion and thinks they should consider it in what is a better golf course is being misled and I think you should be more up front about that when posting your opinion.

You are the only person on this board who is misled by my posts.

Unless someone is a golf course designer or a student of golf course design (maybe 1% of the posters on this board), they evaluate a golf course using highly subjective reactions to their experience.  That's what we do.  That's why we debate which courses are best.  That's why we all have very different opinions of golf courses.  I don't know anybody who evaluates a course using a golf course designer handbook and ignores everything else like conditioning, beauty, views, fun, history, etc.

You may prefer to buy a car based on Consumer Reports ratings which are pure statistics, but I prefer to buy based on Road And Track evaluations which consider the entire driving experience.  

I don't care if Pebble doesn't rank highly using the course designer handbook.  It's beautiful, it's interesting, it has a huge variety of holes and shots, it has history, the weather is usually good, it's memorable, it has good caddies and the entire experience is good so I rank it very highly.

Conversely, I don't care if Cog Hill rates very highly using the course designer handbook.  It's boring and not memorable at all.  So I don't rank it highly.

If your course rankings only include the technical design of the course you should clearly state that because most of us consider a lot of other factors and don't want to be misled.  

Oh, and also clearly state your credentials to make such an evaluation.

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#99 knock it close

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:25 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 19 June 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 18 June 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

It's not even fair to say you are evaluating the course.  That's misleading. You are evaluating your personal experience that day including many things that could and will change from one visit to the next.  Anyone that reads your opinion and thinks they should consider it in what is a better golf course is being misled and I think you should be more up front about that when posting your opinion.

You are the only person on this board who is misled by my posts.

Unless someone is a golf course designer or a student of golf course design (maybe 1% of the posters on this board), they evaluate a golf course using highly subjective reactions to their experience.  That's what we do.  That's why we debate which courses are best.  That's why we all have very different opinions of golf courses.  I don't know anybody who evaluates a course using a golf course designer handbook and ignores everything else like conditioning, beauty, views, fun, history, etc.

You may prefer to buy a car based on Consumer Reports ratings which are pure statistics, but I prefer to buy based on Road And Track evaluations which consider the entire driving experience.  

I don't care if Pebble doesn't rank highly using the course designer handbook.  It's beautiful, it's interesting, it has a huge variety of holes and shots, it has history, the weather is usually good, it's memorable, it has good caddies and the entire experience is good so I rank it very highly.

Conversely, I don't care if Cog Hill rates very highly using the course designer handbook.  It's boring and not memorable at all.  So I don't rank it highly.

If your course rankings only include the technical design of the course you should clearly state that because most of us consider a lot of other factors and don't want to be misled.  

Oh, and also clearly state your credentials to make such an evaluation.
Well pebble is an awesome design which just so happens to be on an exceptional property as well, though it could use a little restoration project.

Cog Hill is a trash design that really only still gets mentioned cause Tiger won there a handful of times

Edited by knock it close, 19 June 2017 - 09:26 AM.

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#100 FairwayFred

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:53 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 19 June 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 18 June 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

It's not even fair to say you are evaluating the course.  That's misleading. You are evaluating your personal experience that day including many things that could and will change from one visit to the next.  Anyone that reads your opinion and thinks they should consider it in what is a better golf course is being misled and I think you should be more up front about that when posting your opinion.

You are the only person on this board who is misled by my posts.

Unless someone is a golf course designer or a student of golf course design (maybe 1% of the posters on this board), they evaluate a golf course using highly subjective reactions to their experience.  That's what we do.  That's why we debate which courses are best.  That's why we all have very different opinions of golf courses.  I don't know anybody who evaluates a course using a golf course designer handbook and ignores everything else like conditioning, beauty, views, fun, history, etc.

You may prefer to buy a car based on Consumer Reports ratings which are pure statistics, but I prefer to buy based on Road And Track evaluations which consider the entire driving experience.  

I don't care if Pebble doesn't rank highly using the course designer handbook.  It's beautiful, it's interesting, it has a huge variety of holes and shots, it has history, the weather is usually good, it's memorable, it has good caddies and the entire experience is good so I rank it very highly.

Conversely, I don't care if Cog Hill rates very highly using the course designer handbook.  It's boring and not memorable at all.  So I don't rank it highly.

If your course rankings only include the technical design of the course you should clearly state that because most of us consider a lot of other factors and don't want to be misled.  

Oh, and also clearly state your credentials to make such an evaluation.

Do not worry I have never been misled by your posts I know enough now to give them little to no weight.  I worry about others who do now know where you are coming from giving your opinion too much weight.  What happens if they don't get the same great caddy, their burger is overdone and it rains?  Then their experience in the things that matter to you will be completely different despite playing the same golf course.  

Inevitably people let their experience, the history, views (I believe the views and surrounding topography etc to be an integral part of the golf course) clubhouse bleed into their feelings about the course, that is normal but you take it much further in that direction and are ranking things that are constantly changing and are irrelevant like your caddy, the food, lodging etc.  It's completely misleading and risks steering people in the complete wrong direction chasing an experience you once had rather than a great golf course.

If you'd like to know my credentials, I work in golf course design, I am a member at 2 top 15 courses in the USA and 5 of the top 100 courses in the world.  I have spent the last 20 years studying golf course architecture and golf courses and have been published writing about golf courses and architecture.  I've played most of the top 100.  I'm also working on a new architecture project that you all will hear about sooner than later.

Edited by FairwayFred, 19 June 2017 - 11:37 AM.

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#101 duffer987

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:30 PM

Are we at the point where you guys can take the p1ssing contest to PMs?

I don't think anyone is confused about RK's POV - when he prefers 20 Nicklaus courses to Pacific Prairie Dunes, and continually slates courses like Pinehurst #2 (post restoration) and Chambers Bay that he has never played, that pretty much sums it up.

GD Rankings are silly airport waiting/golf forum time wasting lists. Enjoy them as the harmless nonsense they are.

Edited by duffer987, 20 June 2017 - 08:37 AM.


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#102 FairwayFred

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:45 PM

View Postduffer987, on 19 June 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

Are we at the point where you guys can take the p1ssing contest to PMs?

I don't think anyone is confused about RK's POV - when he prefers 20 Nicklaus courses to Pacific Dunes, and continually slates courses like Pinehurst #2 (post restoration) and Chambers Bay that he has never played, that pretty much sums it up.

GD Rankings are silly airport waiting/golf forum time wasting lists. Enjoy them as the harmless nonsense they are.

Fair enough, I'm content to mostly tune out what RK says about courses I just worry about those that don't know enough to do the same.
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#103 Roadking2003

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 05:19 PM

View PostFairwayFred, on 19 June 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

Do not worry I have never been misled by your posts I know enough now to give them little to no weight.  I worry about others who do now know where you are coming from giving your opinion too much weight.  What happens if they don't get the same great caddy, their burger is overdone and it rains?  Then their experience in the things that matter to you will be completely different despite playing the same golf course.  

Inevitably people let their experience, the history, views (I believe the views and surrounding topography etc to be an integral part of the golf course) clubhouse bleed into their feelings about the course, that is normal but you take it much further in that direction and are ranking things that are constantly changing and are irrelevant like your caddy, the food, lodging etc.  It's completely misleading and risks steering people in the complete wrong direction chasing an experience you once had rather than a great golf course.

If you'd like to know my credentials, I work in golf course design, I am a member at 2 top 15 courses in the USA and 5 of the top 100 courses in the world.  I have spent the last 20 years studying golf course architecture and golf courses and have been published writing about golf courses and architecture.  I've played most of the top 100.  I'm also working on a new architecture project that you all will hear about sooner than later.

Good for you.  Now be sure to tell everyone how you evaluate courses since many of us don't use a course designer's handbook and I wouldn't want people to be misled by your evaluation method.  Most of us evaluate courses based on what we like and what we enjoy.

Oh, and you can stop exaggerating about bad burgers contributing to my ratings.  That's highly misleading.

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#104 Roadking2003

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 05:25 PM

View Postduffer987, on 19 June 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is confused about RK's POV - when he prefers 20 Nicklaus courses to Pacific Dunes,

Please show me where I said that.  

Quote

and continually slates courses like Pinehurst #2 (post restoration) and Chambers Bay that he has never played, that pretty much sums it up.

So, I'm not allowed to have an opinion unless I have played a course?  Never heard that one before.   I suppose you have played every course you have an opinion about.......

BTW, almost everyone on this board slated Chambers Bay after watching it on TV.

Edited by Roadking2003, 19 June 2017 - 05:27 PM.


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#105 vpd

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 05:47 PM

It is a joke to rank Whisper Rock and Desert Highlands above Desert Forest Golf Club. Neither is even close to the quality and experience of playing Desert Forest. I can't speak to Stone Canyon or Pine Canyon as I have never played them.


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#106 teejaywhy

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:08 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 19 June 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:



Quote

and continually slates courses like Pinehurst #2 (post restoration) and Chambers Bay that he has never played, that pretty much sums it up.

So, I'm not allowed to have an opinion unless I have played a course?  Never heard that one before.   I suppose you have played every course you have an opinion about.......

BTW, almost everyone on this board slated Chambers Bay after watching it on TV.

I'm sorry, but one can not properly evaluate a golf course without actually PLAYING it.  Some might even recommend multiple visits.  And seeing it on TV is next to meaningless.  I'm pretty sure most of that "everyone" who were slagging CB have never played it, only saw it on TV.  Which is sad.

You may have an opinion that you think you might like or not like a course, but without playing it, you can't evaluate it or "rate" it in any way.   Like writing a restaurant review of a restaurant where you've never eaten.

Now if you like to have you own criteria for rating courses that includes elements other than the actual course, that's fine.  Explains a lot actually.   But when you compare rankings with established media that have a published criteria, with your own uncommunicated criteria, there is bound to be misunderstanding.

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#107 Caddykev

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:31 PM

Ive caddied for raters from golfweek, golfworld, and golf digest. I believe rankings are purely subjective, and that in a lot of cases as has been said already that history, designer, views, how one played, and overall experience impact these raters who are just normal golfers the same way. I love asking for their hidden gems and true opinions on the big boys. Things that have stood out to me about mainly Long Island:

1) Friars Head was generally overrated because Ken laid out the white glove treatment, and raters were afraid of not being invited back if they rated it poorly. One guy said if you removed the  coore and Crenshaw hype as of recent or the exclusivity it wouldn't crack the top 50. (Personally I love the course, it's challenging and fun. Brilliant mix of holes. Not a fan of 1, 10, 16, and 18, but 13 might be one of the best par 4s on li- and the last met golfer had it in their dream 18-yet 15 gets all the love because of the view. However, I don't think it's 7th in ny, let alone 17th in the us, but that's just me)

2)The Bridge is hurt in the rankings because of its culture which is super lax and guys dislike of Rees Jones. (I love this course, and actually felt the same way aside from Rees jones because architects names really don't matter to me. Great course and a great test.)

3)One rater-If you lied to someone that didn't know any better that ngla was Southampton cc that it would be treated as average as Southampton is currently.   The rest- aside from Shinny, none better in ny. (I think this is the most overated course myself. I wonder myself if everyone is so consumed with its history. Come and tear me up for this

4)Shinny is sometimes in worse shape than some high end munis. (My personal favorite course. I laughed at this one because I played it and thought the same. There were huge rocks on the top dressed fairways the one time.)

5)If you said sabonack was purely a Nicklaus course without doak, it would get no accolades by the architect snobs. (The one I haven't played)

6)Fishers is an average raynor like bellport cc or Southampton on an unbelievable piece of property. Your spellbound by the beauty and not the average golf course that it is. (Totally disagreed with this guy. Maybe I was just spellbound by the beauty but I found it brilliant.  Coolest thing was how they really only watered the tee boxes and by the green so it really played firm and fast. Unique compared to the overwatered courses we are all used too.)

Edited by Caddykev, 19 June 2017 - 09:33 PM.


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#108 FairwayFred

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:12 PM

View Postteejaywhy, on 19 June 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 19 June 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:



Quote

and continually slates courses like Pinehurst #2 (post restoration) and Chambers Bay that he has never played, that pretty much sums it up.

So, I'm not allowed to have an opinion unless I have played a course?  Never heard that one before.   I suppose you have played every course you have an opinion about.......

BTW, almost everyone on this board slated Chambers Bay after watching it on TV.

I'm sorry, but one can not properly evaluate a golf course without actually PLAYING it.  Some might even recommend multiple visits.  And seeing it on TV is next to meaningless.  I'm pretty sure most of that "everyone" who were slagging CB have never played it, only saw it on TV.  Which is sad.

You may have an opinion that you think you might like or not like a course, but without playing it, you can't evaluate it or "rate" it in any way.   Like writing a restaurant review of a restaurant where you've never eaten.

Now if you like to have you own criteria for rating courses that includes elements other than the actual course, that's fine.  Explains a lot actually.   But when you compare rankings with established media that have a published criteria, with your own uncommunicated criteria, there is bound to be misunderstanding.

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#109 snowdayz

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:14 PM

View PostCaddykev, on 19 June 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

Ive caddied for raters from golfweek, golfworld, and golf digest. I believe rankings are purely subjective, and that in a lot of cases as has been said already that history, designer, views, how one played, and overall experience impact these raters who are just normal golfers the same way. I love asking for their hidden gems and true opinions on the big boys. Things that have stood out to me about mainly Long Island:

1) Friars Head was generally overrated because Ken laid out the white glove treatment, and raters were afraid of not being invited back if they rated it poorly. One guy said if you removed the  coore and Crenshaw hype as of recent or the exclusivity it wouldn't crack the top 50. (Personally I love the course, it's challenging and fun. Brilliant mix of holes. Not a fan of 1, 10, 16, and 18, but 13 might be one of the best par 4s on li- and the last met golfer had it in their dream 18-yet 15 gets all the love because of the view. However, I don't think it's 7th in ny, let alone 17th in the us, but that's just me)

2)The Bridge is hurt in the rankings because of its culture which is super lax and guys dislike of Rees Jones. (I love this course, and actually felt the same way aside from Rees jones because architects names really don't matter to me. Great course and a great test.)

3)One rater-If you lied to someone that didn't know any better that ngla was Southampton cc that it would be treated as average as Southampton is currently.   The rest- aside from Shinny, none better in ny. (I think this is the most overated course myself. I wonder myself if everyone is so consumed with its history. Come and tear me up for this

4)Shinny is sometimes in worse shape than some high end munis. (My personal favorite course. I laughed at this one because I played it and thought the same. There were huge rocks on the top dressed fairways the one time.)

5)If you said sabonack was purely a Nicklaus course without doak, it would get no accolades by the architect snobs. (The one I haven't played)

6)Fishers is an average raynor like bellport cc or Southampton on an unbelievable piece of property. Your spellbound by the beauty and not the average golf course that it is. (Totally disagreed with this guy. Maybe I was just spellbound by the beauty but I found it brilliant.  Coolest thing was how they really only watered the tee boxes and by the green so it really played firm and fast. Unique compared to the overwatered courses we are all used too.)

Nice post, found it very unique and interesting to say the least, thanks for posting!

Living in Michigan I've played some of those courses on Long Island and found your insight very to the point which is nice!

I agree 100% what you said about Fishers Island, I loved it and enjoyed it all so much!  Having playing some of the best golf courses in America (Oakmont, Los Angeles C.C., Sand Hills, etc...) I put this at my #1 course in America, the whole place is special not just cause of the location but the design of the whole course is something you will have never ever seen before, the plateau hole is unlike any other in the world!

Really enjoyed Shinnecock and thought it was worthy of its accolades, least it will put up a bigger fight in the US Open than Error Hills

Sebonack is world class, top shelf in every sense of the word.  I would say its fair in its current ranking in the state.

Playing NGLA later this summer and really excited about it!

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#110 snowdayz

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:18 PM

For my Illinois peeps:

Living in Michigan I can't speak to the whole state in its rankings, only played about 10 courses over there but I agree with what your saying in regards to Cog Hill, what a dog track.  Played it back 02 when it was just weeks away from the Western Open and it was in horrible shape.  Slow greens, big patches in the fairway and just hardly any care for it from what I saw.  To me it seemed the club lived off the out of towners in sucking them in, taking their money and giving the impression that it was world class.  Never been back since


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#111 Caddykev

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 05:38 AM

View Postsnowdayz, on 19 June 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

For my Illinois peeps:

Living in Michigan I can't speak to the whole state in its rankings, only played about 10 courses over there but I agree with what your saying in regards to Cog Hill, what a dog track.  Played it back 02 when it was just weeks away from the Western Open and it was in horrible shape.  Slow greens, big patches in the fairway and just hardly any care for it from what I saw.  To me it seemed the club lived off the out of towners in sucking them in, taking their money and giving the impression that it was world class.  Never been back since
One rater went on and on about dick nugent courses in Illinois being some of the best hidden gems out there. Any truth to it?

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#112 Roadking2003

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 07:54 AM

View Postteejaywhy, on 19 June 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but one can not properly evaluate a golf course without actually PLAYING it.

I agree.  But you can have an opinion.  Most of us have opinions on lots of things we have only seen on TV.  And watching CB for four days is plenty to form an opinion.  For example, I think Kauri Cliffs looks spectacular.  I haven't played it, but my opinion is that it is a beautiful course.

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#113 Roadking2003

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 07:57 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 19 June 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 19 June 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is confused about RK's POV - when he prefers 20 Nicklaus courses to Pacific Dunes,

Please show me where I said that.  


I'm still waiting.......

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#114 CMCSGolf

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 08:36 AM

View PostCaddykev, on 20 June 2017 - 05:38 AM, said:

View Postsnowdayz, on 19 June 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

For my Illinois peeps:

Living in Michigan I can't speak to the whole state in its rankings, only played about 10 courses over there but I agree with what your saying in regards to Cog Hill, what a dog track.  Played it back 02 when it was just weeks away from the Western Open and it was in horrible shape.  Slow greens, big patches in the fairway and just hardly any care for it from what I saw.  To me it seemed the club lived off the out of towners in sucking them in, taking their money and giving the impression that it was world class.  Never been back since
One rater went on and on about dick nugent courses in Illinois being some of the best hidden gems out there. Any truth to it?

No.  It was well documented in another thread.  There are a lot of solid and affordable public tracks in the Chicago area, but none of them hold a candle to the top 15-20 privates.  Unless you have unlimited access, there is really no reason to go to Chicago for golf.

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#115 duffer987

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 08:36 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 20 June 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 19 June 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 19 June 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is confused about RK's POV - when he prefers 20 Nicklaus courses to Pacific Dunes,

Please show me where I said that.  


I'm still waiting.......

Sorry for the delay, I was incorrect in my post, that is not what RK said. Apologies for that RK.
I will correct my previous post, it is NOT Pacific Dunes, but Prairie Dunes.

Roadking2003 said:

Many people who rate courses give extra credit for the old timers.  A good example is Prairie Dunes.  It's a really good course and generally rated in the top 50.  I can list 20 Nicklaus courses I like better.

Doesn't really change anything though ;)

Edited by duffer987, 20 June 2017 - 08:50 AM.


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#116 krtgolfing

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 08:47 AM

View Postteejaywhy, on 19 June 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 19 June 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

Quote

and continually slates courses like Pinehurst #2 (post restoration) and Chambers Bay that he has never played, that pretty much sums it up.

So, I'm not allowed to have an opinion unless I have played a course?  Never heard that one before.   I suppose you have played every course you have an opinion about.......

BTW, almost everyone on this board slated Chambers Bay after watching it on TV.

I'm sorry, but one can not properly evaluate a golf course without actually PLAYING it.  Some might even recommend multiple visits.  And seeing it on TV is next to meaningless.  I'm pretty sure most of that "everyone" who were slagging CB have never played it, only saw it on TV.  Which is sad.

You may have an opinion that you think you might like or not like a course, but without playing it, you can't evaluate it or "rate" it in any way.   Like writing a restaurant review of a restaurant where you've never eaten.

Now if you like to have you own criteria for rating courses that includes elements other than the actual course, that's fine.  Explains a lot actually.   But when you compare rankings with established media that have a published criteria, with your own uncommunicated criteria, there is bound to be misunderstanding.

Exactly. I watched the US Open at Pinehurst # 2 and did not think too much about it. Played is earlier this year and it is probably in my top 2 or 3 courses I have ever played. I have not played a bunch of the exclusive courses, but the course was a joy.
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#117 AlecEmersonGolf

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 09:07 AM

Here's my rant about the Michigan rankings

Courses that are rated too low
Orchard Lake
Franklin Hills
Indianwood
Country Club of Detroit (WTF seriously there's 25 courses in Michigan better than this?)

Courses that are rated too high
Forest Dunes (I know I'm in the minority on this but I don't love this place)
Bay Harbor (Basically the worse version of Arcadia)
The Bear
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#118 1puttTUT

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 01:41 PM

View PostAlecEmersonGolf, on 20 June 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

Here's my rant about the Michigan rankings

Courses that are rated too low
Orchard Lake
Franklin Hills
Indianwood
Country Club of Detroit (WTF seriously there's 25 courses in Michigan better than this?)

Courses that are rated too high
Forest Dunes (I know I'm in the minority on this but I don't love this place)
Bay Harbor (Basically the worse version of Arcadia)
The Bear

I was surprised at the loop at Forest Dunes quick ascent into the top 25

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#119 Roadking2003

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 03:17 PM

View Postduffer987, on 20 June 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 20 June 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 19 June 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 19 June 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is confused about RK's POV - when he prefers 20 Nicklaus courses to Pacific Dunes,

Please show me where I said that.  


I'm still waiting.......

Sorry for the delay, I was incorrect in my post, that is not what RK said. Apologies for that RK.
I will correct my previous post, it is NOT Pacific Dunes, but Prairie Dunes.

Roadking2003 said:

Many people who rate courses give extra credit for the old timers.  A good example is Prairie Dunes.  It's a really good course and generally rated in the top 50.  I can list 20 Nicklaus courses I like better.

Doesn't really change anything though ;)

Thanks for correcting your post.  But it does change everything.  I've played Prairie Dunes. I haven't played Pacific Dunes.

Notice that I said "I can list 20 Nicklaus courses I like better".  It's a personal preference.  What's so hard to understand that we all have preferences when it comes to golf courses?

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#120 Roadking2003

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 03:19 PM

View PostAlecEmersonGolf, on 20 June 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

Here's my rant about the Michigan rankings

Courses that are rated too high
Forest Dunes (I know I'm in the minority on this but I don't love this place)
Bay Harbor (Basically the worse version of Arcadia)
The Bear

What is it about Forest Dunes that you don't like?  I'll be playing it in August.


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