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Arccos 360 v Game Golf Live v _________

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#1 Gamble Gamble

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 01:17 PM

I just reread Broadie's "Every Shot Counts" and want to employ some analytics to my game.  Which tracking software is best?  Is there any new ones coming down the pipeline?

cost does not matter, i am looking for the option which is going to have the best measurements and analytics

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#2 North Butte

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 03:30 PM

If you want to separate out your tee shot Strokes Gained from your approach shot Strokes Gained, with Game Game you're going to have to keep some notes yourself and adjust their numbers. One of the key elements to Broadie's approach is tracking the category he calls "recovery" or "obstructed" as separate from "rough". Game Golf does not do this (and I strongly expect that Arccos does not do it either).

So every single time you have to pitch out or play sort of not-toward-the-green recovery shot, the pseudo-Strokes Gained in Game Golf thinks you've hit a drive into the rough followed by a horribly short and mis-aimed "approach" shot. It will charge a small fraction of a stroke ("fairway" vs. "rough") against your Strokes Gained: Off The Tee and the remaining 9/10 or whatever of a stroke against your Strokes Gained: Approach the Green. Which is dead wrong.

The workaround is to make a note every time you play a recovery shot and then subtract one stroke from Off The Green and add it to Approach The Green. I did that for a while and quit, not worth the trouble.

The other issue with both Game Golf and Arccos is they don't actually know where the hole is located. Not sure what the workaround is in Arccos but in Game Golf after uploading a round you need to somehow (memory, notes, whatever) recall where the flag was on the green and manually move it there. Otherwise the distance of your putts will usually be way off as will the length of your chips and bunkers shots and to a lesser extent even the distances from which you hit wedge and iron shots.

Here's one more thing specific to Game Golf (again, I can't say regarding Arccos). You can't easily get the numbers they give you for approach shot distances and use them to look up expected strokes in Broadie's tables. That's because they never display distance to the hole. If you hit a 90-yard approach shot with your sand wedge and it comes up 15 yards short that is recorded as a "75 yard Sand Wedge shot" because it traveled 75 yards. In Stroke Gained terms that was a 90-yard approach but you don't see that number anywhere in Game Golf. Again you can figure it out yourself but PITA.

So basically, Game Golf is telling a bit of a porkie when they say they give you Strokes Gained stats. Leaving out the Obstructed/Recovery category fundamentally confuses the Approach the Green and Off The Tee categories (although the SUM of those two is a good approximation to Strokes Gained: Tee to Green in Broadie). And the uncertainty as to where the hole actually was, unless you fix it up after the fact, will lead to very wrong results for putting.

OTOH, their graphs of your shot dispersions and distances are great. That's the actually useful feature of the GG system. But if you want real Broadie type Stroke Gained you're going to be better off keeping notes on your scorecard, lasering distances and figuring up the SG stuff yourself. I do not think either of those systems is really capable in their current forms of valid Stroke Gained calculations. They are just using that buzzword as a selling point.
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#3 bluedot

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 04:17 PM

This will take a minute, so bear with me.

I suspect that the reason that neither Arccos nor Game Golf uses "strokes gained" is either a matter of copyright issues, or of simplicity/familiarity vs. handicaps, or a combination of the two.  And since there isn't really a field per se to be gaining or losing strokes against, it isn't necessarily applicable anyway.

I've been using Arccos 360 since the first of the year, and now have 60+ rounds with it.  The way that Arrcos expresses performance for either a round or overall performance is a handicap index in each of 5 categories, as well as an overall index.  Their claim, and I have no reason to doubt this, is that these indexes are based on strokes gained analytics for golfers of those particular indexes; that information is certainly available.  So Arccos tells me that I drive the ball like a 14 handicap, but putt like a +4.7, that is based on how MY stats compare to other golfers.  This is completely reasonable; I don't drive the ball especially well for a player of my handicap because even though I'm pretty accurate I'm just not very long anymore as I hurtle toward Medicare.  But I might go a couple of weeks without three putting, and my putting index indicates that.

As to the issue of hole location, Arccos makes it very easy to edit to make the location reasonably accurate, either right after you complete a hole, or after the round.  When you do that editing, Arccos automatically adjusts the distances and proximity of your approach, and then you index for approach shots as well.  I don't find the putting editing to be especially bothersome, and the accuracy is plenty good enough to give you a clear picture of how well you are hitting approach shots AND how well you are putting.

The best feature of Arcoss FOR ME has by far been having accurate distances and ranges for each club.  Based on the information it has provided, I've started hitting my fairway woods a lot less and my hybrids a lot more on par 5's, for instance.  I've also been working on a 3/4 shot with both my gap wedge and my 9 iron to cover distances that are clear gaps in my club setup.

Hope that helps.

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#4 North Butte

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 04:48 PM

Game Golf specifically claims to use Strokes Gained and attributes it specifically to Broadie in some of their advertising.

They don't really do it because a) their geofencing can not distinguish an obstructed shot from a regular shot in the rough (no 3-D info) and b) they know GPS is not accurate enough to use an exact hole location even if they tried to incorporate it.

Strokes Gained is not the be-all and end-all of golf stats. I own a Game Golf because the dispersion and distance (especially dispersion) information is useful. But what they call Strokes Gained is their own made-up hodgepodge and in its own way is as misleading relying on the so-called "traditional stats". It looks very precise while in fact giving you very precise numbers that are invalid and misleading.

Both systems suffer from being closed, proprietary systems in which you can not access nor do you own your raw data. So you basically are supposed to take their word for whatever they choose to compute, however it best suits them to compute it at the moment. No promises about how it compares to anything external to their system and no promises that it will be consistent with their own future implementations.

I think it's all great fun to mess with but would not count on it as part of any genuine game improvement effort.
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#5 Gamble Gamble

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 05:26 PM

View Postbluedot, on 07 June 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

This will take a minute, so bear with me.

I suspect that the reason that neither Arccos nor Game Golf uses "strokes gained" is either a matter of copyright issues, or of simplicity/familiarity vs. handicaps, or a combination of the two.  And since there isn't really a field per se to be gaining or losing strokes against, it isn't necessarily applicable anyway.

I've been using Arccos 360 since the first of the year, and now have 60+ rounds with it.  The way that Arrcos expresses performance for either a round or overall performance is a handicap index in each of 5 categories, as well as an overall index.  Their claim, and I have no reason to doubt this, is that these indexes are based on strokes gained analytics for golfers of those particular indexes; that information is certainly available.  So Arccos tells me that I drive the ball like a 14 handicap, but putt like a +4.7, that is based on how MY stats compare to other golfers.  This is completely reasonable; I don't drive the ball especially well for a player of my handicap because even though I'm pretty accurate I'm just not very long anymore as I hurtle toward Medicare.  But I might go a couple of weeks without three putting, and my putting index indicates that.

As to the issue of hole location, Arccos makes it very easy to edit to make the location reasonably accurate, either right after you complete a hole, or after the round.  When you do that editing, Arccos automatically adjusts the distances and proximity of your approach, and then you index for approach shots as well.  I don't find the putting editing to be especially bothersome, and the accuracy is plenty good enough to give you a clear picture of how well you are hitting approach shots AND how well you are putting.

The best feature of Arcoss FOR ME has by far been having accurate distances and ranges for each club.  Based on the information it has provided, I've started hitting my fairway woods a lot less and my hybrids a lot more on par 5's, for instance.  I've also been working on a 3/4 shot with both my gap wedge and my 9 iron to cover distances that are clear gaps in my club setup.

Hope that helps.

With Arccos if you can place the pin on the green does it also calculate the distance of each putt?

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#6 bluedot

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 03:21 PM

View PostGamble Gamble, on 07 June 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

View Postbluedot, on 07 June 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

This will take a minute, so bear with me.

I suspect that the reason that neither Arccos nor Game Golf uses "strokes gained" is either a matter of copyright issues, or of simplicity/familiarity vs. handicaps, or a combination of the two.  And since there isn't really a field per se to be gaining or losing strokes against, it isn't necessarily applicable anyway.

I've been using Arccos 360 since the first of the year, and now have 60+ rounds with it.  The way that Arrcos expresses performance for either a round or overall performance is a handicap index in each of 5 categories, as well as an overall index.  Their claim, and I have no reason to doubt this, is that these indexes are based on strokes gained analytics for golfers of those particular indexes; that information is certainly available.  So Arccos tells me that I drive the ball like a 14 handicap, but putt like a +4.7, that is based on how MY stats compare to other golfers.  This is completely reasonable; I don't drive the ball especially well for a player of my handicap because even though I'm pretty accurate I'm just not very long anymore as I hurtle toward Medicare.  But I might go a couple of weeks without three putting, and my putting index indicates that.

As to the issue of hole location, Arccos makes it very easy to edit to make the location reasonably accurate, either right after you complete a hole, or after the round.  When you do that editing, Arccos automatically adjusts the distances and proximity of your approach, and then you index for approach shots as well.  I don't find the putting editing to be especially bothersome, and the accuracy is plenty good enough to give you a clear picture of how well you are hitting approach shots AND how well you are putting.

The best feature of Arcoss FOR ME has by far been having accurate distances and ranges for each club.  Based on the information it has provided, I've started hitting my fairway woods a lot less and my hybrids a lot more on par 5's, for instance.  I've also been working on a 3/4 shot with both my gap wedge and my 9 iron to cover distances that are clear gaps in my club setup.

Hope that helps.

With Arccos if you can place the pin on the green does it also calculate the distance of each putt?

It does.  Arccos "knows" where you hit the putt from, or at least pretty close, but you can also adjust that, too.  You can also denote that you used your putter from off the green and designate that shot as a chip, rather than a putt, so as not to skew your putting stats.

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#7 dhc1

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 09:18 AM

I have the arccos 360 but can't use it as I don't want to have a phone in my pocket. Any of these work without a phone in the pocket?

Is arccos thinking of fully integrating with apple watch 2?

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#8 North Butte

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 09:23 AM

Quote

I have the arccos 360 but can't use it as I don't want to have a phone in my pocket. Any of these work without a phone in the pocket?



Game Golf have a little box you clip onto your belt. After (or before) each shot you touch the tag on the butt of the club to the box and it records the shot. Then you download it (by Bluetooth to a phone or USB to a PC) after the round.

There is no way to record a round in real time without either using your phone during the round or having the Game Golf unit on your belt. It's not physically possible. Something with a GPS has to be with you when you hit the shot.

That said, it's always possible to remember each shot and enter it into some sort of online system after the round by memory. But that's a lot of work and memory is not necessarily precise or accurate.

I'm with you, I won't even consider anything that requires swiping and tapping and generally fiddling with my phone during a round. Or even having to carry it with me.

Edited by North Butte, 09 June 2017 - 09:25 AM.

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#9 dhc1

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 11:31 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 09 June 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

Quote

I have the arccos 360 but can't use it as I don't want to have a phone in my pocket. Any of these work without a phone in the pocket?



Game Golf have a little box you clip onto your belt. After (or before) each shot you touch the tag on the butt of the club to the box and it records the shot. Then you download it (by Bluetooth to a phone or USB to a PC) after the round.

There is no way to record a round in real time without either using your phone during the round or having the Game Golf unit on your belt. It's not physically possible. Something with a GPS has to be with you when you hit the shot.

That said, it's always possible to remember each shot and enter it into some sort of online system after the round by memory. But that's a lot of work and memory is not necessarily precise or accurate.

I'm with you, I won't even consider anything that requires swiping and tapping and generally fiddling with my phone during a round. Or even having to carry it with me.

Thanks, NB. My wife gave me an arccos and an apple watch 2 (which has GPS), which i thought solved the problem but they told me that they need to microphone on the phone to record the swing. I let them know that the Apple Watch 2 also has a microphone but it's not something that is currently functional.

Seems like the AW2/Arccos would be a killer app and easy but, oh well....

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#10 North Butte

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 11:34 AM

Does the watch have a GPS in it? I'm not familiar with smartwatches.

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#11 dhc1

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 12:06 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 09 June 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

Does the watch have a GPS in it? I'm not familiar with smartwatches.

Yep - that's the only reason my wife got it for me and yet arccos still needs the phone in the pocket.....

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#12 bluedot

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 03:52 PM

When I decided to try Arccos, I was concerned that the phone in my front pocket would bother me, and that I would be tempted to fiddle with the phone during the round; neither has been the case.

I have an iphone7; I take it out of the case when I am getting out of the car, turn on Arccos when I am walking to the first tee, and then never think about it until I finish the round.  The phone is smaller than the golf ball I used to carry in my left front pocket, and smaller than the scorecard wallet/folder I carry in my back pocket.  Honestly, it's never bothered me for a moment, and has never entered my mind during a shot.

If the phone in your pocket is what is worrying you, try a few rounds with your phone out of the case and in your front pocket.  If it bothers you, then you'll know not to get Arccos.  I'm guessing it won't, and I'm pretty OCD about this stuff.  (Just so you'll know, when I go to the range to practice, I put four tees, two coins, and a repair tool in my front right pocket because that's what's in my front pocket when I play.  Now I put my phone in my left front pocket as well.)

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#13 dhc1

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 04:24 PM

View Postbluedot, on 09 June 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

When I decided to try Arccos, I was concerned that the phone in my front pocket would bother me, and that I would be tempted to fiddle with the phone during the round; neither has been the case.

I have an iphone7; I take it out of the case when I am getting out of the car, turn on Arccos when I am walking to the first tee, and then never think about it until I finish the round.  The phone is smaller than the golf ball I used to carry in my left front pocket, and smaller than the scorecard wallet/folder I carry in my back pocket.  Honestly, it's never bothered me for a moment, and has never entered my mind during a shot.

If the phone in your pocket is what is worrying you, try a few rounds with your phone out of the case and in your front pocket.  If it bothers you, then you'll know not to get Arccos.  I'm guessing it won't, and I'm pretty OCD about this stuff.  (Just so you'll know, when I go to the range to practice, I put four tees, two coins, and a repair tool in my front right pocket because that's what's in my front pocket when I play.  Now I put my phone in my left front pocket as well.)

Fair enough bluedot; it's good that it works for you, although I'd make two points:

1. The Apple Watch 2 should have everything that the iPhone has.
2. Some courses don't allow phones

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#14 bluedot

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 08:33 AM

View Postdhc1, on 09 June 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

View Postbluedot, on 09 June 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

When I decided to try Arccos, I was concerned that the phone in my front pocket would bother me, and that I would be tempted to fiddle with the phone during the round; neither has been the case.

I have an iphone7; I take it out of the case when I am getting out of the car, turn on Arccos when I am walking to the first tee, and then never think about it until I finish the round.  The phone is smaller than the golf ball I used to carry in my left front pocket, and smaller than the scorecard wallet/folder I carry in my back pocket.  Honestly, it's never bothered me for a moment, and has never entered my mind during a shot.

If the phone in your pocket is what is worrying you, try a few rounds with your phone out of the case and in your front pocket.  If it bothers you, then you'll know not to get Arccos.  I'm guessing it won't, and I'm pretty OCD about this stuff.  (Just so you'll know, when I go to the range to practice, I put four tees, two coins, and a repair tool in my front right pocket because that's what's in my front pocket when I play.  Now I put my phone in my left front pocket as well.)

Fair enough bluedot; it's good that it works for you, although I'd make two points:

1. The Apple Watch 2 should have everything that the iPhone has.
2. Some courses don't allow phones

I'm not familiar enough with the Apple Watch to comment on that, except to say that I've heard the same complaint about wearing a watch that I have about a phone in your front pocket.  I've worn a GPS watch for years now, and maybe because I am a runner, that's never bothered me either.  I'm as OCD as anybody about what's going on while I play, and if a watch on my wrist or a phone in my pocket doesn't bother me, then I suspect that anybody could quickly get used to either or both.  But that's obviously a matter of personal taste and preference.

As to the courses that don't allow phones, I've played exactly ONE that checked to see that you left your phone in the locker room; East Lake in Atlanta.  I've played at a number of clubs that fully expected you NOT to display, much less use for calls or texting, a phone while in the clubhouse or on the course, such as Peachtree.  But that has ZERO to do with Arccos; you can put the phone on silent and never look at it from the time you get out of the car until the time you get home, and Arccos will still work fine.  And in any event, the number of times that comes up in life for MOST of us is relatively small anyway.

And fwiw, I ONLY use Arcoss at my home course anyway, simply because I don't really need Arccos stats from away rounds enough to justify extra hassle.  I use Arccos primarily to get accurate information about distances for each club, and how I'm performing in the various parts of the game in a macro sense over many, many rounds.  I can remember pin positions on my home course well enough to accurately edit my putting stats when I get home, but on a less-familiar course, I'd have to be fooling with the phone after every hole to get the pin positions right, and that doesn't interest me in the least.  Since probably 80% of the rounds I play are on my home course, the data set that Arccos gives me is pretty good; having the info from the away rounds just isn't that much more beneficial; I don't lose anything from my statistical picture from omitting a round every couple of weeks.

I got Arccos because after reading everything I could find on the various options, it seemed the least obtrusive option with the best data set.  I've haven't been disappointed in the least on either score.  I realize, though, that it ain't for everybody.

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