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Talk to Me About Lie Angles


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#1 mwink822

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:02 AM

Okay gang, I just ordered a set of Mizuno JPX 900 Tour irons and a 51* gap wedge was included free in the order as part of the current promo that Mizuno has running (order any set of 7 or more irons and receive a free MP T7 wedge).  My irons and the 51* wedge are Mizuno standard length and loft and 2* flat of Mizuno standard.  I'll also be playing with my current Vokey SM6 sand and lob wedges for a while until I decide whether to stick with Mizuno T7 wedges or go in a different direction.  Here's the rub, the SM6 wedges are 1/4" short of Titleist standard (so they're Mizuno Standard length) and 2* flat from Titleist standard, or 1* flat of Mizuno standard.  Is this going to make any significant difference?  I've also noticed that all of the other typical wedge brands (Callaway, Cleveland, Cobra, etc) are going to be 1* up from Mizuno standard and many don't allow for a 3* bend flat to get them to match my incoming irons.  So, again, should I be concerned with this at all?  If I end up not clicking well with the Mizuno wedges, I was planning on grabbing new Vokeys or possibly Cleveland RTX3 Raw wedges with shafts to match the new irons (Nippon Modus).

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#2 AllstateMaine

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:17 AM

I don't think you'll notice the difference between 1* of lie angle between the irons/wedges. If you choose to go in the Callaway wedge direction, you can get the Mack Daddy Forged wedges and those can be bent quite easily. However, with the straight leading edge of the Cally Forged, this might pose a little problem. I game the same JPX 900 Tour and SM6 wedges and have noticed absolutely no difference. I also have a set of Callaway wedges so I may take these out for a few swings and see if I can notice anything.
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#3 mwink822

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:39 AM

Thanks for the input.  I'm really looking forward to getting the new irons in the bag.  I've finally come to the conclusion that I just don't get to play enough golf anymore to be bagging a set of blades.
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#4 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 09:00 AM

The lie angle on your wedges are more important than any other clubs in the bag.

The more loft a club has, the more an incorrect lie angle effects ball flight.

Too upright and the ball launches left of target given a perfect swing and too flat the ball launches right of intended target, (for a right hander).

Bend your Vokeys to your desired lie angle.  ALL golf club brands can be bent at least 3 degrees no matter what you've read. Some finishes can suffer and crack if you go more than 3 degrees, but they all can be bent at least 3 degreees in either direction.

I play all my wedges one degree flat and I absolutely guarantee one degree makes a difference.  If I take a stock wedge off the rack a full swing shot will go  3-4 yards left of target every time until I adjust for it and aim more right, which obviously is not how you want to play.

All decent players will subconsciously adjust to the club not fitting after a certain amount of practice with it, but "learning" to play a pull or a push caused by an ill fitting wedge is simply is not a good idea.  The  adjustments you start to make with the club will start to effect your neighboring short irons that actually may fitted for you properly. Example: if your 50 degree "off the rack" gap wedge is 2 degrees too upright and your properly fitted pitching wedge is spot on,... how does your brain transition from playing the significant pull on the gap to playing a "normal" shot with the pitching wedge?? The answer is that it doesn't with any kind of consistency.

Wedge lie angle Is actually probably the most critical part of proper club fitting and a huge percentage of people just play what they buy off the rack. Big mistake. They are your scoring clubs....the need to be dead on.

Edited by Jagpilotohio, 07 June 2017 - 09:06 AM.

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#5 mwink822

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 03:17 PM

And now we're back to square one it seems.

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#6 onlyomar

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:59 PM

Jagpilot is absolutely correct.

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#7 AllstateMaine

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 07:19 PM

Guy must be on Tour for 1* lie to effect every wedge swing 4-6 yards. Not discounting it, but even the better-than-average stick won't see a difference. Christ...soft, Forged clubs can bend naturally over time 1*
Titleist 917 D3 8.5* w/ Tour AD-DI 7X
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#8 Cwebb

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 07:34 PM

You don't really need to bend 64* lie angle stock wedges 3*, in order to get them "in line" with a 2* flat Mizuno set.

You should be just fine with them at 62*, but if you're not, then find someone else who can bend them some more.  Just because the company doesn't "recommend" bending them more than 2*, does not mean they can't be.  Just about any good wedge that's not made from a very hard brittle alloy, can be bent more than 2*.  I can tell you for sure that the Clevelands, Titleists, and Taylormades can

Edited by Cwebb, 05 June 2017 - 07:35 PM.


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#9 onlyomar

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:11 AM

View PostAllstateMaine, on 05 June 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

Guy must be on Tour for 1* lie to effect every wedge swing 4-6 yards. Not discounting it, but even the better-than-average stick won't see a difference. Christ...soft, Forged clubs can bend naturally over time 1*

It affects every golfer the same, whether on tour or a. 20 capper.  It's physics.

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#10 knock it close

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:18 AM

Yea the vokey twitter account the other day basically said they do 2* either way but if you need more its fine (suggested you go with steel grey or black, probably to avoid the chrome flaking) so getting your vokeys bumped 1 more down would be fine

M2, maybe
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#11 mwink822

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 08:48 AM

I suppose I'll try the wedges at 62* to start and see where to go from there.
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#12 DaveMac

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 09:13 AM

Don't create a problem that might not exist.

Play your Vokey within your new set find out the performance and characteristics, (technique aside) if it mostly goes where you want, it's all good. If it is consistently missing target left or right and you don't like the inconsistency, have the lie tweaked, even if it does have a miss, you might simply be able to play with it, in fact in some cases, it can be useful.

Don't forget how often do you play your wedge shots from a perfectly flat lie!

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#13 AllstateMaine

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:22 AM

View Postonlyomar, on 06 June 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

View PostAllstateMaine, on 05 June 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

Guy must be on Tour for 1* lie to effect every wedge swing 4-6 yards. Not discounting it, but even the better-than-average stick won't see a difference. Christ...soft, Forged clubs can bend naturally over time 1*

It affects every golfer the same, whether on tour or a. 20 capper.  It's physics.

It affects every golfer the same if every golfer had the exact same swing path and mechanics. You can't possibly tell me that 1* in lie angle difference will make an absolute noticeable difference on every swing. Not so many years ago, I played at a really high level (US Open Sectionals) and I can promise you that I never EVER checked my lie angles. Made no difference 1*
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#14 mwink822

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 11:08 AM

Wow, I never thought that this would be this hot a debate.  I suppose I'll give the current irons a whirl with the new irons when they get here.  Perhaps it'll be a bit like the progression to the more upright lies as the set progresses anyway.
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#15 Matt J

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 11:59 AM

I always bend mine to a standard progression of 1 flat, but if I see a ball flight tendency repeat itself, I bend more.  Recently I've been pulling my 6 iron, I'd almost guarantee you when I bring my bag home after the round today and put it in the vise it is more upright than the 5 and 7.

I agree with the previous comments, nothing is more frustrating than pulling a wedge.  I'd rather shove it short all day than pull it.  I play my wedges about 2 down and would bet you could go as much as 5 or 6 flat with most wedges before you're really at risk of breaking the hosel.

Edited by Matt J, 08 June 2017 - 11:59 AM.


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#16 onlyomar

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 05:41 AM

View PostAllstateMaine, on 07 June 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

View Postonlyomar, on 06 June 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

View PostAllstateMaine, on 05 June 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

Guy must be on Tour for 1* lie to effect every wedge swing 4-6 yards. Not discounting it, but even the better-than-average stick won't see a difference. Christ...soft, Forged clubs can bend naturally over time 1*

It affects every golfer the same, whether on tour or a. 20 capper.  It's physics.

It affects every golfer the same if every golfer had the exact same swing path and mechanics. You can't possibly tell me that 1* in lie angle difference will make an absolute noticeable difference on every swing. Not so many years ago, I played at a really high level (US Open Sectionals) and I can promise you that I never EVER checked my lie angles. Made no difference 1*

Not true. 1* off has the same physical affect on every swing and every golfer whether you recognized it or not.  Every time the club makes ball contact, if the club is 1* too upright it will pull the ball left because the Face USB automatically pointing that direction. On a wedge, 1* will pull the ball 4-6 yards left.  Every time every swing of it is 1* up at impact.

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#17 sdrthedj

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 09:56 AM

My irons are 1 flat, my wedges are 2 flat.  I found the bigger difference was greenside and short approaches under 50 yards.

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#18 Lord Helmet

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 10:09 AM

Irons are 1 flat, wedges 2 flat.  When I was wedge fit, the 2* flat made a huge difference.
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#19 dlygrisse

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 10:14 AM

Irons 1.5 upright, wedges are standard.  

It's all about the short game, if I wanted an optimal wedge on a full swing I would go more upright, but my 58* especially works better on partial shots playing flatter than the full set.
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#20 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 11:04 AM

I have some time.  Let me tell you my favorite lie angle story.

In the early 90's I was a PGA apprentice in So Cal.  I volunteered to work the tournament at Torrey Pines one year. I was assigned to be a "gopher" of sorts.  I worked the range and ran the pros back and forth from the range to the first tee and putting green. The range is (or was) two sided and it's a long walk to the far side.

There was a lull in the action and I stopped my cart to sit and watch Ben Crenshaw hit his sand wedge at the 100 yard flag on the range. He was testing a new one and one of the tour reps was standing there with his caddy. Cleveland or Cobra wedge I think, but I'm not certain.  It's been a while. ; )

So he hits the wedge very nicely.  Two yards left, one yard  left, three yards left, one yard left, two yards left. He hits it only about 5 or 6 times and turns and gives it to the rep and says, "fix it".

Rep runs off for 2 or 3 minutes to the Van and comes back with the club.  Ben hits hit two yards right, one yard right, three yards right, two yards right....again, he gives it to the rep and says, "fix it".

Rep comes back in 2 or 3 minutes and hands it back to him again.  This time he's a few feet right, on it, a few feet left, on it, and then hits the stick.....at which point he tells the rep, "that's good, thanks." And sticks it in his bag. Literally hit 5 balls.

He waved me over and I drove he and his caddie to the first tee to tee off. Wished him good luck and said goodbye.

After he teed off I went back to the range and found the rep.  I told him that I had been studying club fitting and what I saw was amazing.  I said I had no idea a degree or two of lie angle change could make such a difference.  He looked at me funny and said, "a degree or two??, I was adjusting that thing for him in HALF DEGREE increments."

Over 20 years  later and I still remember that as one of the most important things I've ever seen in club fitting. Lie angles are absolutely critical, especially in the wedges, and even half degrees can make a very real difference in ball flight.  

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#21 Cwebb

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 02:07 PM

View PostJagpilotohio, on 09 June 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:


After he teed off I went back to the range and found the rep.  I told him that I had been studying club fitting and what I saw was amazing.  I said I had no idea a degree or two of lie angle change could make such a difference.  He looked at me funny and said, "a degree or two??, I was adjusting that thing for him in HALF DEGREE increments."

Over 20 years  later and I still remember that as one of the most important things I've ever seen in club fitting. Lie angles are absolutely critical, especially in the wedges, and even half degrees can make a very real difference in ball flight.  

A great experience there.  Last year I did nearly this same thing with a lob wedge, that was consistently falling just to the right.  Adjusted it a Half Degree upright and it was dialed in.  

Hard to believe it can make a noticeable difference, but it can.  I found the key to it, is hitting the club from the same exact spot at the same target on the same day, before and after the adjustment.  Makes the test as "controlled" as possible

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#22 Awainer1

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 07:24 PM

You DEFINETLY can bend your wedges 3 degrees in either direction or way more if you have to so I wouldnt worry about that.  Whatever setup you want and think works best theres no "standard".  I like my wedges to be the same relative lie angle to the rest of the set so if all my wedges are the same length as my PW the lies are the same.  If theyre a half inch short they need to be a half degree more upright.  Some people will "flatline" the wedges so the shorter ones will play a little flatter possibly making it easier to open up around the greens but thats not my personal preference.  Again its all personal and dont let someone else tell you what you "should" do.

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#23 mwink822

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 10:12 PM

Okay fellas, I've gotten some range time and four rounds of golf in on the new irons which are a degree flatter 3-gap wedge than my last set and my sand and lob wedges are the same spec as my last set (i.e. one degree up from my current irons and gap wedge).  Thus far, I've noticed that I strike the ball slightly toward the toe with the new irons and gap wedge and slightly toward the heel on the wedges that are one up from the rest of the clubs.  What adjustment should I make?  I have a slight 5 to 10 yard block to the right with the irons and gap wedge and a slight 5 to 10 yard pull with the sand and lob wedges.  Should I have the irons and gap wedge bent a half degree up and the sand and lob bent a half down?  Should I bent all the irons and gap wedge a degree up, or should I bend the sand and lob wedges a degree down?  Thoughts?  If it makes any difference, I did manage to shoot a 79 today.
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#24 mwink822

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 11:35 AM

Anyone?
Titleist 915D2 8.5* Diamana Kai'li 70X
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#25 Cwebb

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:18 PM

View Postmwink822, on 18 June 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

Okay fellas, I've gotten some range time and four rounds of golf in on the new irons which are a degree flatter 3-gap wedge than my last set and my sand and lob wedges are the same spec as my last set (i.e. one degree up from my current irons and gap wedge).  Thus far, I've noticed that I strike the ball slightly toward the toe with the new irons and gap wedge and slightly toward the heel on the wedges that are one up from the rest of the clubs.  What adjustment should I make?  I have a slight 5 to 10 yard block to the right with the irons and gap wedge and a slight 5 to 10 yard pull with the sand and lob wedges.  Should I have the irons and gap wedge bent a half degree up and the sand and lob bent a half down?  Should I bent all the irons and gap wedge a degree up, or should I bend the sand and lob wedges a degree down?  Thoughts?  If it makes any difference, I did manage to shoot a 79 today.

1* difference is not going to produce heel vs toe impact patterns.  So something else is causing it.  Head weight would be a much larger factor in impact pattern.  Your wedges are likely heavier than your irons, so maybe try adding some weight to the iron heads and see if it changes impact location.

If you're going to try adding weight, do this first before changing the lie angles.

If you decide to change the lies, I'd try going up 1* with just the irons first...and get them in proportion to your wedges.  Test them all their for a while

Edited by Cwebb, 19 June 2017 - 01:22 PM.


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#26 mwink822

mwink822

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 07:32 PM

So quite possibly a product of the lighter shaft?  Specifically going from a C-Taper 120 Stiff to a Modus 105X that weighs in at 112 grams raw weight.  I think I may try an inch of lead tape on a couple of the iron heads.
Titleist 915D2 8.5* Diamana Kai'li 70X
Titleist 915 Fd 13.5* Diamana S+ 80X
3-P Mizuno JPX 900 Tour Nippon Modus 3 105X
White Satin Mizuno MP T7 51-08 Modus 3 105X
Blue Ion Mizuno MP T7 55-09 Modus 3 105X Soft Stepped
Blue Ion Mizuno MP T7 59-09 Modus 3 105X Soft Stepped
Scotty Cameron Studio Select Fastback 1

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