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OK you technology people...explain this...


61 replies to this topic

#31 lawsonman

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 06:36 AM

I'd say one of the units is fu$%ked up.

I have a excellent short game. It's unfortunate that it starts on the Tee.

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#32 Stetson

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 08:04 AM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 29 May 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 29 May 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

View PostStetson, on 29 May 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

Does everybody here suggesting a laser ever have inconsistencies?  I've used rangefinders in the past that would say 175, hit it again and says 178, then 176.

The only one I've had do that for reasons other than my aiming wrong was an ancient Bushnell Medalist that had been used for over a decade. It had dirt and scratches on the lenses and sometimes would not get a reading at all so I replaced it.

A properly functioning laser, in my experience, is never going to change by more than plus or minus one yard when repeatedly lasering a fixed target.

Agreed.  The technology on which a laser rangefinder is based does not allow for that kind of variation unless something is broken or the device is very poorly designed.  A modern middle of the road rangefinder from Bushnell, Nikon, or Leupold should provide repeatability to +/- 1 yard or less.  Absolute accuracy should be good to less than a couple of yards depending upon how much care is taken performing calibration of the device.

So hypothetically a Bushnell 1M shouldn't have this issue?
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#33 North Butte

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 08:10 AM

If a Bushnell 1M is giving different yardages from the same spot (and doing it more than once in a blue moon) then it isn't working properly. I know there are reliability concerns with that model although I those were more about random complete failures.

But yeah, distances should be repeatable to plus or minus a yard on a Bushnell 1M. If that's not true, it's having some sort of problem.
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#34 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 02:33 PM

View PostStetson, on 30 May 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 29 May 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 29 May 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

View PostStetson, on 29 May 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

Does everybody here suggesting a laser ever have inconsistencies?  I've used rangefinders in the past that would say 175, hit it again and says 178, then 176.

The only one I've had do that for reasons other than my aiming wrong was an ancient Bushnell Medalist that had been used for over a decade. It had dirt and scratches on the lenses and sometimes would not get a reading at all so I replaced it.

A properly functioning laser, in my experience, is never going to change by more than plus or minus one yard when repeatedly lasering a fixed target.

Agreed.  The technology on which a laser rangefinder is based does not allow for that kind of variation unless something is broken or the device is very poorly designed.  A modern middle of the road rangefinder from Bushnell, Nikon, or Leupold should provide repeatability to +/- 1 yard or less.  Absolute accuracy should be good to less than a couple of yards depending upon how much care is taken performing calibration of the device.

So hypothetically a Bushnell 1M shouldn't have this issue?
As NB said.  Your rangefinder is not working properly.  If I had to guess I would say the laser is not firing exactly when the time-of-flight electronics is expecting it to.  Variation of no more than 12 nsec shot to shot would result in errors on the order of what you are seeing.  There could also be an issue with the laser pulse width or shape.
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#35 Pepperturbo

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 03:34 PM

View PostDavePelz4, on 27 May 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

One of my golf buds and I have the exact Garmin G6.  They're both current on the software updates as of 5/27.

So...today...we were 4-7 yards off when standing the in the exact same spot with Garmin in hand. OK...we're not tour pros and 12-21 feet isn't that big of a deal but please enlighten me as to why this could happen.

Just to make this even more entertaining, we both turned off our Garmins and restarted them while standing in the exact same place yet the 4-7 yard difference stayed consistent.

Thoughts???

Greens are divided into quadrants; one for each day, where the pin moves, but never out of that quadrant for that day.  Means GPS could read the same yardage or a few yards different.  If you both were standing in the exact same place, you must have been standing on his shoulders. :lol:  :beach:

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#36 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 07:59 PM

View PostDavePelz4, on 27 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

View PostFade, on 27 May 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

Interesting. Was one of you always short, the other always long, or did that vary, for example based on the direction the hole was playing in?

Simply, if we both stood in the exact same spot, one would be 148 yards to the center and the other would be 152.  One GPS was always shorter the other longer.
Dave was this just one reading at one point in time? Did you check on other holes?

Also, receivers placed next to each other can interfere with the other.

Here is more technical info that may be helpful
http://gpstracklog.c...onceptions.html



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#37 North Butte

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 08:05 PM

I believe in that context "placed next to each other" means pretty much touching.
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#38 DavePelz4

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 08:49 PM

View PostBlackDiamondPar5, on 30 May 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

View PostDavePelz4, on 27 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

View PostFade, on 27 May 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

Interesting. Was one of you always short, the other always long, or did that vary, for example based on the direction the hole was playing in?

Simply, if we both stood in the exact same spot, one would be 148 yards to the center and the other would be 152.  One GPS was always shorter the other longer.
Dave was this just one reading at one point in time? Did you check on other holes?

Also, receivers placed next to each other can interfere with the other.

Here is more technical info that may be helpful
http://gpstracklog.c...onceptions.html

We both come from technology backgrounds so we're pretty knowledgeable on how one GPS could impact another.  We checked the distance multiple times on at least 10 holes and would literally stand on tee markers, fairway markers, etc. and alternated, just in case.  Neither of us is going to compete on any tour but we just found it interesting.  In a side note, we both have fit bits as well and the distance walked is generally within a few hundred steps.

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#39 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 08:57 PM

View PostDavePelz4, on 30 May 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

View PostBlackDiamondPar5, on 30 May 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

View PostDavePelz4, on 27 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

View PostFade, on 27 May 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

Interesting. Was one of you always short, the other always long, or did that vary, for example based on the direction the hole was playing in?

Simply, if we both stood in the exact same spot, one would be 148 yards to the center and the other would be 152.  One GPS was always shorter the other longer.
Dave was this just one reading at one point in time? Did you check on other holes?

Also, receivers placed next to each other can interfere with the other.

Here is more technical info that may be helpful
http://gpstracklog.c...onceptions.html

We both come from technology backgrounds so we're pretty knowledgeable on how one GPS could impact another.  We checked the distance multiple times on at least 10 holes and would literally stand on tee markers, fairway markers, etc. and alternated, just in case.  Neither of us is going to compete on any tour but we just found it interesting.  In a side note, we both have fit bits as well and the distance walked is generally within a few hundred steps.
If you were consistently 4-7 yards off then to me it sounds like like Mrs. Pelz may have mishandled your unit  or your partners :)

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#40 DavePelz4

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 08:59 PM

View PostBlackDiamondPar5, on 30 May 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

View PostDavePelz4, on 30 May 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

View PostBlackDiamondPar5, on 30 May 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

View PostDavePelz4, on 27 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

View PostFade, on 27 May 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

Interesting. Was one of you always short, the other always long, or did that vary, for example based on the direction the hole was playing in?

Simply, if we both stood in the exact same spot, one would be 148 yards to the center and the other would be 152.  One GPS was always shorter the other longer.
Dave was this just one reading at one point in time? Did you check on other holes?

Also, receivers placed next to each other can interfere with the other.

Here is more technical info that may be helpful
http://gpstracklog.c...onceptions.html

We both come from technology backgrounds so we're pretty knowledgeable on how one GPS could impact another.  We checked the distance multiple times on at least 10 holes and would literally stand on tee markers, fairway markers, etc. and alternated, just in case.  Neither of us is going to compete on any tour but we just found it interesting.  In a side note, we both have fit bits as well and the distance walked is generally within a few hundred steps.
If you were consistently 4-7 yards off then to me it sounds like like Mrs. Pelz may have mishandled your unit  or your partners :)

Sir...believe me, the least likely scenario is Mrs. Pelz handling a unit.


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#41 larrybud

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 02:34 PM

View PostDavePelz4, on 27 May 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

One of my golf buds and I have the exact Garmin G6.  They're both current on the software updates as of 5/27.

So...today...we were 4-7 yards off when standing the in the exact same spot with Garmin in hand. OK...we're not tour pros and 12-21 feet isn't that big of a deal but please enlighten me as to why this could happen.

Just to make this even more entertaining, we both turned off our Garmins and restarted them while standing in the exact same place yet the 4-7 yard difference stayed consistent.

Thoughts???

The accuracy of consumer GPS is +/- 3 yards

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#42 larrybud

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 02:39 PM

View PostStetson, on 29 May 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

Does everybody here suggesting a laser ever have inconsistencies?  I've used rangefinders in the past that would say 175, hit it again and says 178, then 176.

EVERY single measuring device has a tolerance.   Lasers generally have an accuracy of +/- 1 yards.  So if you beam something off and it reads 100 yards, it could be 99, 100, or 101.    If you're standing at 99.49 yards you might read 98,99,100, and when you measure again, you might be standings 99.51 yards, so it would read 99, 100, 101.

Which, by the way, those lasers which reason out to 0.1, but if you read the specs, the tolerance is still +/-1 yard, so that decimal point is MEANINGLESS!!!  Pure marketing BS.

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#43 new2g0lf

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 07:11 PM

Could be calibration or that the government restricts the accuracy on consumer GPS products so that they have a margin of error.  Both units might be off and that accounts for the disparity, when using both, split the difference.  Only way to know for sure is to use a rangefinder.

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#44 Patrick_O

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 09:56 PM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 03 June 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:

Could be calibration or that the government restricts the accuracy on consumer GPS products so that they have a margin of error.  Both units might be off and that accounts for the disparity, when using both, split the difference.  Only way to know for sure is to use a rangefinder.
Again this is wrong. The government does not restrict the accuracy of GPS devices. Used to but not for some years now.
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#45 larrybud

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 08:03 PM

View PostPatrick_O, on 03 June 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 03 June 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:

Could be calibration or that the government restricts the accuracy on consumer GPS products so that they have a margin of error.  Both units might be off and that accounts for the disparity, when using both, split the difference.  Only way to know for sure is to use a rangefinder.
Again this is wrong. The government does not restrict the accuracy of GPS devices. Used to but not for some years now.

To expand, consumer GPS units use a single frequency.  Military GPS generally use 2 different frequencies, and in doing so, can adjust for atmospheric distortion.


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#46 Outlier

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 08:45 PM

View PostDavePelz4, on 28 May 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

We have the same handheld Garmin,  same software revision, clear day, middle of the fairway, just different yardages.

Well now you have a good idea of the reliability of said technology.  Only thing left to do is ask yourself if it matters...

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#47 larrybud

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:11 AM

View PostOutlier, on 04 June 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

View PostDavePelz4, on 28 May 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

We have the same handheld Garmin,  same software revision, clear day, middle of the fairway, just different yardages.

Well now you have a good idea of the reliability of said technology.  Only thing left to do is ask yourself if it matters...

It's 150 or 156 to clear the water (+/- 3 yards).  I'd say it matters!

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#48 North Butte

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:21 AM

View Postlarrybud, on 05 June 2017 - 06:11 AM, said:

View PostOutlier, on 04 June 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

View PostDavePelz4, on 28 May 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

We have the same handheld Garmin,  same software revision, clear day, middle of the fairway, just different yardages.

Well now you have a good idea of the reliability of said technology.  Only thing left to do is ask yourself if it matters...

It's 150 or 156 to clear the water (+/- 3 yards).  I'd say it matters!

If a typical golf GPS tells you it's 156 to clear the water, it might be 153 or it might be 159 but you can be 90%-plus certain the actual carry distance is somewhere in the 153-159 range.

If that sort of thing drives you crazy then use a laser or play a practice round and make yourself a detailed yardage book Tour-style.

I think a lot of people can live with that degree of uncertainty and in that situation they're going to play their 160 or 165 club anyway just to be sure. In those situations I always take some extra club anyway. For me it's the other times when a GPS flakes out and changes its mind while I'm standing in one spot that makes carrying one not worth the bother and aggro.
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#49 golfer07840

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:22 AM

View PostDavePelz4, on 27 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

View PostFade, on 27 May 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

Interesting. Was one of you always short, the other always long, or did that vary, for example based on the direction the hole was playing in?

Simply, if we both stood in the exact same spot, one would be 148 yards to the center and the other would be 152.  One GPS was always shorter the other longer.
My skycaddie SGX is always "off" from Garmin GPS units. Usually by a couple of yards. However I'm always 100% accurate standing next to a tee marker.

People complain about their customer service, but it's a damn good product. Outside if a rangefinder, nothing more accurate.

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#50 Outlier

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:20 AM

View Postlarrybud, on 05 June 2017 - 06:11 AM, said:

View PostOutlier, on 04 June 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

View PostDavePelz4, on 28 May 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

We have the same handheld Garmin,  same software revision, clear day, middle of the fairway, just different yardages.

Well now you have a good idea of the reliability of said technology.  Only thing left to do is ask yourself if it matters...

It's 150 or 156 to clear the water (+/- 3 yards).  I'd say it matters!

I reference Phil Mickelson's recently aired interview with Feherety when asked how he calculates shot carry distance: as I recall his inputs include: temperature, surface moisture, air pressure, wind, slope, type of grass, lie....given all that, AND a lifetime of practice, he still rarely lands it in the hole.

Just like most GWXR's carry their drives 300, we also now cannot tolerate mere +/- 3 yds. accuracy ?  If you can take 10 balls and alternate hitting 5 160-165 and 5 150-155 then it's obvious......you should have a caddie.


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#51 DavePelz4

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:31 AM

View PostOutlier, on 04 June 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

View PostDavePelz4, on 28 May 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

We have the same handheld Garmin,  same software revision, clear day, middle of the fairway, just different yardages.

Well now you have a good idea of the reliability of said technology.  Only thing left to do is ask yourself if it matters...

It doesn't really matter because if it's off on the distance to a green, it's also off on how far I'm hitting the ball.  I use the GPS to track how far certain shots go so hopefully the distance inconsistency is...consistent.

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#52 North Butte

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:35 AM

View PostDavePelz4, on 05 June 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

View PostOutlier, on 04 June 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

View PostDavePelz4, on 28 May 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

We have the same handheld Garmin,  same software revision, clear day, middle of the fairway, just different yardages.

Well now you have a good idea of the reliability of said technology.  Only thing left to do is ask yourself if it matters...

It doesn't really matter because if it's off on the distance to a green, it's also off on how far I'm hitting the ball.  I use the GPS to track how far certain shots go so hopefully the distance inconsistency is...consistent.

There's still a basic uncertainty (the oft-quoted plus or minus three yards) this is not consistent. It's somewhat random so it may well average out over a large number of shots recorded. But any one shot might be off by up to six yards, in theory.

It's why unless you remember or write down actual distances, the short-game and especially putting stats from Game Golf are totally bogus. Knowing that a certain putt was 20 feet, give or take six yards, means it was really somewhere between a couple feet and 30-something feet. Same for a "18-yard' chip shot that might actually have been 24 yards if both the hole location and shot location were off by three yards.
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#53 new2g0lf

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:56 PM

View PostPatrick_O, on 03 June 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 03 June 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:

Could be calibration or that the government restricts the accuracy on consumer GPS products so that they have a margin of error.  Both units might be off and that accounts for the disparity, when using both, split the difference.  Only way to know for sure is to use a rangefinder.
Again this is wrong. The government does not restrict the accuracy of GPS devices. Used to but not for some years now.

I stand corrected, thanks.

Quote

The accuracy commitments do not apply to GPS devices, but rather to the signals transmitted in space. For example, the government commits to broadcasting the GPS signal in space with a global average user range error (URE) of ≤7.8 m (25.6 ft.), with 95% probability. Actual performance exceeds the specification. On May 11, 2016, the global average URE was ≤0.715 m (2.3 ft.), 95% of the time.


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#54 W4LWQ

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 06:52 AM

I use both, the laser for line of sight and the gps on blind shots to the green. Best of both worlds.

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#55 lawst4days

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:30 PM

The answer here for 100% seems to me like the two devices are interfering with each other. This would be especially amplified if they were both the same model.

By definition GPS location calculations are determined in part by the time it takes for the signal to reach the device. If the signal is inadvertently delayed in reaching the device, by say another identical device, then it will display a different number.

You can google and read the early work on consumer GPS and this should be confirmed.

Also, if it bothers you that much, get a rangefinder... lol.


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#56 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:50 AM

View Postlawst4days, on 11 October 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

The answer here for 100% seems to me like the two devices are interfering with each other. This would be especially amplified if they were both the same model.

By definition GPS location calculations are determined in part by the time it takes for the signal to reach the device. If the signal is inadvertently delayed in reaching the device, by say another identical device, then it will display a different number.

You can google and read the early work on consumer GPS and this should be confirmed.

Also, if it bothers you that much, get a rangefinder... lol.

Unlikely, but not impossible.  It would be due to radiated EMI not a "delay" in the signal.  GPS devices are receivers of the signal which is pretty much pervasive and of constant strength in a localized area.  Poorly designed devices may leak EMI which interfere with adjacent device electronics and processing.  This could cause degradation in the precision in range to target.
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#57 Soloman1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:14 AM

Sorry, but I can't resist...

Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, Watson et al usually stood next to marked sprinkler heads or 200/150/100 yard markers to check their GPS and LASER devices.

Since humans now have a shorter attention span than goldfish and have lost the advanced mental skill of counting, I'm going to market a special golf pedometer app to count the steps walking off the distance from a sprinkler head.

The player stands on the sprinkler head and inputs the number on the sprinkler head. Then they walk to their ball. The app will automatically do the advanced, high-level math of addition or subraction.

The app is capable of high-level functions for tasks that humans can no longer perform, such as "carrying the one."

Edited by Soloman1, 12 October 2017 - 08:16 AM.

I'm quitting at 6.022 x 10^23 posts.
Avogadro would be proud.

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#58 North Butte

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:28 AM

View PostSoloman1, on 12 October 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, Watson et al usually stood next to marked sprinkler heads or 200/150/100 yard markers to check their GPS and LASER devices.

Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus and Watson usually stood next to marked sprinkler head and asked their caddies, "What's my carry to the front and to the pin?". Tour players a few hackers who play at rich-guy clubs still do this.
A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

--Plato

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#59 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:40 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 October 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

View PostSoloman1, on 12 October 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, Watson et al usually stood next to marked sprinkler heads or 200/150/100 yard markers to check their GPS and LASER devices.

Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus and Watson usually stood next to marked sprinkler head and asked their caddies, "What's my carry to the front and to the pin?". Tour players a few hackers who play at rich-guy clubs still do this.

Of course we also don't know how good the sprinkler head marks were.  If they were old and the course hilly then they could easily be off by a few yards.  Calibrating a device with information less accurate than the device is futile at best (laser).  It might still help for GPS.
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#60 DavePelz4

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:18 AM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 12 October 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 October 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

View PostSoloman1, on 12 October 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, Watson et al usually stood next to marked sprinkler heads or 200/150/100 yard markers to check their GPS and LASER devices.

Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus and Watson usually stood next to marked sprinkler head and asked their caddies, "What's my carry to the front and to the pin?". Tour players a few hackers who play at rich-guy clubs still do this.

Of course we also don't know how good the sprinkler head marks were.  If they were old and the course hilly then they could easily be off by a few yards.  Calibrating a device with information less accurate than the device is futile at best (laser).  It might still help for GPS.

You're spot on regarding the sprinkler heads.  It's extremely rare to use them these days unless looking for something general.  As mentioned in the first post, it's not like a 12-15 foot difference makes a significant difference at my level.


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