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Window Policy


36 replies to this topic

#1 ilikegolf26

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 06:13 PM

My buddy was playing a private course the other day with a member and cracked a window.  Apparently  the rules of the club state it is the player's responsibility to pay for the damage.  The homeowner got a bid from a contractor and it's going to be over $5,000 to repair the entire window system (only one pane was cracked but they have to repair the entire system for matching purposes).  My buddy is a student that only works part-time and $5,000 would be a huge hit to him.  Is there any way to challenge this as you have to actually go to the Rules and Regulations handbook in order to see this.  He claims he never would have played the course (which has houses right off the fairway on probably half the holes; some of which would be missing the FAIRWAY by 10-15 yards) had he known about this rule.


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#2 golfandfishing

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 06:19 PM

Common sense = you break something, you replace it.

That said I'm surprised the homeowners insurance doesn't cover the cost. Just have your buddy pay the deductible unless the insurance company wants to drop coverage or drastically increase rates post claim.

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#3 coreyl

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 06:23 PM

 golfandfishing, on 21 May 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:


That said I'm surprised the homeowners insurance doesn't cover the cost. Just have your buddy pay the deductible unless the insurance company wants to drop coverage or drastically increase rates post claim.
Was thinking this ^^

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#4 ilikegolf26

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 06:24 PM

 golfandfishing, on 21 May 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

Common sense = you break something, you replace it.

That said I'm surprised the homeowners insurance doesn't cover the cost. Just have your buddy pay the deductible unless the insurance company wants to drop coverage or drastically increase rates post claim.

They said they didn't want to file a claim because then "their rates would go up."

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#5 Medic

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 06:34 PM

Here's an interesting article to share with your buddy...
http://sandglawfirm....hp?detail_id=33

Here in Florida a few years back a similar case went to the Supreme Court and the Court found that even a pro cannot assure that the ball will, with 100% certainty, stay on path and not cause injuries or damages. Therefore it is an accepted part of the game that if you live on or around a course your house may be damaged; and there is no liability.

Now, fast forward about 3 years after that decision and my friend hits a shank right over a house and nails a car. Puts a dent in the side. Long story short the owner called the pro shop and the guy came out; basically he told the owner they would have to file it on the insurance.

For under $5000 odds are your friend can get legal advice on the matter. But I remember the case because it was so interesting when the judge, a non-golfer, cited that even the pros hit things and people now and then.

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#6 GGRobin

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 07:18 PM

Unless your friend signed something before teeing off, he's not legally liable.  The law recognizes that a ball isn't always under the player's control.  All your friend has to do is tell the homeowner he's not paying and to make an insurance claim.  Homeowners pay a premium based on being a golf course lot; in fact, homeowner had to sign an acknowledgment of the risks associated with it when he bought the house.  They'd love your friend to pay, and will probably threaten to sue, but they know they can't win, and won't file.  This issue has been litigated a million times and always comes out in favor of the player.  Even those signs on public courses claiming you're responsible for damage are unenforceable and are just there to scare you.

Friend is not a signatory to the club's rules and regulations and they simply don't apply to him.  

Your friend, even if he wanted to offer something, would be insane to take a $5000 hit.  He broke a window, not an entire window system.  If homeowner had put in a $25,000 stained glass window, would they try to hit him for the $25,000?  Probably but, once again, that's why he pays extra to insure a golf course lot.

My contractor husband laughed at the idea of a window system where a single window can't be replaced because they have to match.  He suggested quite strongly that homeowner is trying to replace a whole system at someone else's expense and suggested that Friend, if he wants to do anything at all, bring in his own glass and glazing contractor and get an independent opinion on what needs to be replaced.

Edited by GGRobin, 21 May 2017 - 07:34 PM.


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#7 BMRisko

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 07:28 PM

Have the homeowner take your buddy to court.  Odds are it will cost the homeowner more than filling an insurance claim and there is a good chance your buddy will win.

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#8 Conrad1953

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 08:00 PM

I like what Sir Charles said

"If you live on a golf course expect your house to get hit".

No way a player is liable as others have said unless something malicious is his intent
and it can be proven.

Take the advice others have given and tell your friend to just say NO.
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#9 Arizonalefty59

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 08:46 PM

Homeowner is obviously trying to take advantage of your buddy. If the homeowners gave a legit price I would suggest that your buddy should cough up some dough. But with the homeowners being greedy, Id tell them to pound sand.

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#10 jewofgolf

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 09:18 PM

This is part of living on a golf course. They chose to live there and they need to deal with it.


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#11 manku

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 11:06 PM

Problem is it's a private course. The club will go after the member who played with the guest. And they probably have that in writing!

I did this once in LA.  Fortunately member was generous enough to foot the bill!

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#12 Ferguson

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 08:05 AM

"Apparently the rules of the club state it is the player's responsibility to pay for the damage."

"Clubs rules" do not equate to law.   Don't pay.

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#13 bigmoneyp

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:14 AM

I lived on a course for like 8 years. We got hit a lot. Insurance pays those bills. Only time I ever got upset was if someone didn't tell when they pushed one into the yard.  Id never expect someone to pay for a hole in my siding or broken window unless they were intentionally trying to cause damage which was never the case.

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#14 ESP

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:15 AM

Lawyer here, and the law varies depending on the jurisdiction.  I looked into this issue for a buddy of mine and the general rule is that the liability is on the player not the homeowner.  In most jurisdictions, the golfer is responsible unless liability has been shifted to the homeowner by the HOA, neighborhood covenants or private club rules.  When looking into the matter I was expecting to find that living on a golf course is an assumption of risk that your house will be hit by a ball and therefore the homeowner would be responsible, but that is not the case in most jurisdictions.  Not sure what the law is in Florida but if your buddy wants to know he should have an attorney in your area research the law and not rely on general advice from this board.
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#15 bscinstnct

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 08:57 PM

 Ferguson, on 22 May 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

"Apparently the rules of the club state it is the player's responsibility to pay for the damage."

"Clubs rules" do not equate to law.   Don't pay.

Correct.


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#16 Ferguson

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 05:51 AM

 ESP, on 22 May 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

Lawyer here, and the law varies depending on the jurisdiction.  I looked into this issue for a buddy of mine and the general rule is that the liability is on the player not the homeowner.  In most jurisdictions, the golfer is responsible unless liability has been shifted to the homeowner by the HOA, neighborhood covenants or private club rules.  When looking into the matter I was expecting to find that living on a golf course is an assumption of risk that your house will be hit by a ball and therefore the homeowner would be responsible, but that is not the case in most jurisdictions.  Not sure what the law is in Florida but if your buddy wants to know he should have an attorney in your area research the law and not rely on general advice from this board.


When did the non-club member (the person who broke the window) sign anything prior to the round of golf from the HOA or private club that clearly states he or she liable for a broken window?   Is it then true the non-member guest would be liable for golf ball damage to a piece of vinyl siding, roof shingle, dented gutter or trim work on the same house, or do these laws pertain only to windows?  

The member of the club may have signed something as a part of his or her membership that holds them liable, but the guest - I don't think so.  

Don't pay, and get bullied by a lawyer, or a homeowner.  The club should have made it vividly clear to the non-member guest that he was liable for stuff like that prior to the round.  If they failed to warn your buddy as a non-member guest, it's on the club.  

Let them come after you.

Edited by Ferguson, 23 May 2017 - 07:51 AM.


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#17 Cajunmike

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 04:20 PM

Yeah I'd probably feel obligated to pay for a pane of glass but not a whole panel for "aesthetics". Not sure they have much of recourse against the player beyond making the broken portion whole anyway. Tell him to call a glass company and get a quote for a tempered pane of glass x by x to replace a window pane. That'd be my starting offer, if any at all.


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#18 UofU02

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 08:48 PM

 ESP, on 22 May 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

Lawyer here, and the law varies depending on the jurisdiction.  I looked into this issue for a buddy of mine and the general rule is that the liability is on the player not the homeowner.  In most jurisdictions, the golfer is responsible unless liability has been shifted to the homeowner by the HOA, neighborhood covenants or private club rules.  When looking into the matter I was expecting to find that living on a golf course is an assumption of risk that your house will be hit by a ball and therefore the homeowner would be responsible, but that is not the case in most jurisdictions.  Not sure what the law is in Florida but if your buddy wants to know he should have an attorney in your area research the law and not rely on general advice from this board.

I'll also toss in my knowledge as a lawyer, and I agree with the above statement.  Jurisdictions do vary but the general rule is that the onus is on the player and not the homeowner.  The player is usually deemed to have control over the ball and therefore is liable for it's damage.  Property law usually grants an owner relief when an individual, or something thing controlled by the individual, enters the owner's land and causes damage.

I'm sure there are various remedy arguments as to what the individual may owe in damages but I can't see a court granting the homeowner the total amount of replacing all the windows so they match, but in Florida...who knows.

Edited by UofU02, 23 May 2017 - 08:55 PM.

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#19 bscinstnct

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 09:19 PM

Id live to see the case law.

You bought a house on a golf course.

Unless the golfer was negligent or intentionally hit your house.

Your house would most likely be assumed to incur damage.

You live within a reasonable radius of tee shots? That your problem.

Now, if a guy is hitting accross the fairway and skulls a ball into your house, then you may have a case.








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#20 ESP

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 08:46 AM

 Ferguson, on 23 May 2017 - 05:51 AM, said:

 ESP, on 22 May 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

Lawyer here, and the law varies depending on the jurisdiction.  I looked into this issue for a buddy of mine and the general rule is that the liability is on the player not the homeowner.  In most jurisdictions, the golfer is responsible unless liability has been shifted to the homeowner by the HOA, neighborhood covenants or private club rules.  When looking into the matter I was expecting to find that living on a golf course is an assumption of risk that your house will be hit by a ball and therefore the homeowner would be responsible, but that is not the case in most jurisdictions.  Not sure what the law is in Florida but if your buddy wants to know he should have an attorney in your area research the law and not rely on general advice from this board.


When did the non-club member (the person who broke the window) sign anything prior to the round of golf from the HOA or private club that clearly states he or she liable for a broken window?   Is it then true the non-member guest would be liable for golf ball damage to a piece of vinyl siding, roof shingle, dented gutter or trim work on the same house, or do these laws pertain only to windows?  

The member of the club may have signed something as a part of his or her membership that holds them liable, but the guest - I don't think so.  

Don't pay, and get bullied by a lawyer, or a homeowner.  The club should have made it vividly clear to the non-member guest that he was liable for stuff like that prior to the round.  If they failed to warn your buddy as a non-member guest, it's on the club.  

Let them come after you.

The non-member player doesn't have to sign anything to be responsible for property damage they cause.  The issue is who caused the the damage, without regard to intent or skill level of the golfer involved.  It is analogous to a kid breaking a neighbors window with a baseball.  As I mentioned, the law could be different in your jurisdiction and I have only looked at it as it relates to where I live.  Also keep in mind that economics do come in to play regardless of who is at fault under the law.  If a golfer breaks a $300 window and refuses to pay, then the recourse of the property owner would be to file suit, which wouldn't make sense given the cost of filing suit.  My explanation isn't an opinion of who should be responsible, as opinions will vary, just an explanation of how it works where I live, which is likely to be similar in other places.

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#21 ESP

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 08:54 AM

I ran across an interesting case in my research, but don't recall where it as from.  Property owner was responsible for damage and had a side of his house that was constantly hit with tee shots, damaging the siding.  The property owner waited until there was significant enough damage to file a claim with his insurance, thinking it was similar to hail damage.  The insurance company successfully asserted that each golf ball strike, occurring over several years, were separate events and therefore the homeowner would have to pay the deductible for each golf ball strike.  The total of all deductibles greatly exceeded the damage and the homeowner had to pay out of pocket for the repair.
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#22 reddobeman

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 10:29 AM

View PostESP, on 24 May 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

View PostFerguson, on 23 May 2017 - 05:51 AM, said:

View PostESP, on 22 May 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

Lawyer here, and the law varies depending on the jurisdiction.  I looked into this issue for a buddy of mine and the general rule is that the liability is on the player not the homeowner.  In most jurisdictions, the golfer is responsible unless liability has been shifted to the homeowner by the HOA, neighborhood covenants or private club rules.  When looking into the matter I was expecting to find that living on a golf course is an assumption of risk that your house will be hit by a ball and therefore the homeowner would be responsible, but that is not the case in most jurisdictions.  Not sure what the law is in Florida but if your buddy wants to know he should have an attorney in your area research the law and not rely on general advice from this board.


When did the non-club member (the person who broke the window) sign anything prior to the round of golf from the HOA or private club that clearly states he or she liable for a broken window?   Is it then true the non-member guest would be liable for golf ball damage to a piece of vinyl siding, roof shingle, dented gutter or trim work on the same house, or do these laws pertain only to windows?  

The member of the club may have signed something as a part of his or her membership that holds them liable, but the guest - I don't think so.  

Don't pay, and get bullied by a lawyer, or a homeowner.  The club should have made it vividly clear to the non-member guest that he was liable for stuff like that prior to the round.  If they failed to warn your buddy as a non-member guest, it's on the club.  

Let them come after you.

The non-member player doesn't have to sign anything to be responsible for property damage they cause.  The issue is who caused the the damage, without regard to intent or skill level of the golfer involved.  It is analogous to a kid breaking a neighbors window with a baseball.  As I mentioned, the law could be different in your jurisdiction and I have only looked at it as it relates to where I live.  Also keep in mind that economics do come in to play regardless of who is at fault under the law.  If a golfer breaks a $300 window and refuses to pay, then the recourse of the property owner would be to file suit, which wouldn't make sense given the cost of filing suit.  My explanation isn't an opinion of who should be responsible, as opinions will vary, just an explanation of how it works where I live, which is likely to be similar in other places.

What if a kid was playing baseball on a non-residential field (maybe zoned as a park or something) and hits a foul ball that breaks the window of a house built in close proximity to the field?

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#23 bscinstnct

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 10:41 AM

"It's absolutely not a black-and-white issue," Martin said. "We're frequently asked: `Who's at fault when a golfer breaks the window of someone's house?' My response is that I don't know. I have to look at the facts. It could be the golfer, it could be the homeowner, or the club owner or club operator, or the developer who laid out the home sites or the designer of the golf course."

Or a combination of parties.
"Generally speaking, the golfer is probably not responsible," says Rick Woulfe, an attorney with the Fort Lauderdale firm Bunnell Woulfe and an outstanding amateur golfer who once eliminated 16-year-old Tiger Woods in the Dixie Amateur. "In most cases, when somebody is acting in a manner most people would define as reasonable and just hits a bad shot, he's usually not held responsible."

Normally, the legal burden is on the damaged party to prove negligence in a liability case.

"It's never clear cut, but negligence is defined as a failure to exercise reasonable care," Woulfe said.



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#24 One_Putt_Blunder

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:31 PM

Probably the most famous case
http://news.blogs.cn...fore-dismissed/

ABA blog post citing a few cases which also remove liability from the player

https://apps.america...-04/minan.shtml

Another example
https://books.google... player&f=false

Another dismissed case.
http://www.wral.com/.../story/1407851/
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#25 ESP

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:45 PM

View Postreddobeman, on 24 May 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

View PostESP, on 24 May 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

View PostFerguson, on 23 May 2017 - 05:51 AM, said:

View PostESP, on 22 May 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

Lawyer here, and the law varies depending on the jurisdiction.  I looked into this issue for a buddy of mine and the general rule is that the liability is on the player not the homeowner.  In most jurisdictions, the golfer is responsible unless liability has been shifted to the homeowner by the HOA, neighborhood covenants or private club rules.  When looking into the matter I was expecting to find that living on a golf course is an assumption of risk that your house will be hit by a ball and therefore the homeowner would be responsible, but that is not the case in most jurisdictions.  Not sure what the law is in Florida but if your buddy wants to know he should have an attorney in your area research the law and not rely on general advice from this board.


When did the non-club member (the person who broke the window) sign anything prior to the round of golf from the HOA or private club that clearly states he or she liable for a broken window?   Is it then true the non-member guest would be liable for golf ball damage to a piece of vinyl siding, roof shingle, dented gutter or trim work on the same house, or do these laws pertain only to windows?  

The member of the club may have signed something as a part of his or her membership that holds them liable, but the guest - I don't think so.  

Don't pay, and get bullied by a lawyer, or a homeowner.  The club should have made it vividly clear to the non-member guest that he was liable for stuff like that prior to the round.  If they failed to warn your buddy as a non-member guest, it's on the club.  

Let them come after you.

The non-member player doesn't have to sign anything to be responsible for property damage they cause.  The issue is who caused the the damage, without regard to intent or skill level of the golfer involved.  It is analogous to a kid breaking a neighbors window with a baseball.  As I mentioned, the law could be different in your jurisdiction and I have only looked at it as it relates to where I live.  Also keep in mind that economics do come in to play regardless of who is at fault under the law.  If a golfer breaks a $300 window and refuses to pay, then the recourse of the property owner would be to file suit, which wouldn't make sense given the cost of filing suit.  My explanation isn't an opinion of who should be responsible, as opinions will vary, just an explanation of how it works where I live, which is likely to be similar in other places.

What if a kid was playing baseball on a non-residential field (maybe zoned as a park or something) and hits a foul ball that breaks the window of a house built in close proximity to the field?

I don't know the answer to that question, and my baseball analogy may not be the best.  At the end of the day, like most other legal issues the answer is "it depends" and there isn't a definitive answer that applies to all jurisdictions or situations.  I just know what the law is in my city with respect to a player who breaks a window on the course that I below to.

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#26 ESP

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:50 PM

View PostOne_Putt_Blunder, on 24 May 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

Probably the most famous case
http://news.blogs.cn...fore-dismissed/

ABA blog post citing a few cases which also remove liability from the player

https://apps.america...-04/minan.shtml

Another example
https://books.google... player&f=false

Another dismissed case.
http://www.wral.com/.../story/1407851/

Good information, but the cases involve personal injury not property damage and I don't know what courts in these jurisdictions would hold with respect to property damage.
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#27 One_Putt_Blunder

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:54 PM

View PostESP, on 24 May 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

View PostOne_Putt_Blunder, on 24 May 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

Probably the most famous case
http://news.blogs.cn...fore-dismissed/

ABA blog post citing a few cases which also remove liability from the player

https://apps.america...-04/minan.shtml

Another example
https://books.google... player&f=false

Another dismissed case.
http://www.wral.com/.../story/1407851/

Good information, but the cases involve personal injury not property damage and I don't know what courts in these jurisdictions would hold with respect to property damage.

I've always understood it as liability is liability, most of the cases the decisions make reference to the assumption of risk and lack of intended negligence on the players part. I cannot see this principal differing because a window was broken not a bone. Unfortunately because a broken window is not a big/interesting news item the only case references I could find were people suing courses because of multiple occurrences, most if not all I could find were dismissed under same principals.
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#28 Medic

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 06:48 PM

View PostESP, on 24 May 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

View PostOne_Putt_Blunder, on 24 May 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

Probably the most famous case
http://news.blogs.cn...fore-dismissed/

ABA blog post citing a few cases which also remove liability from the player

https://apps.america...-04/minan.shtml

Another example
https://books.google... player&f=false

Another dismissed case.
http://www.wral.com/.../story/1407851/

Good information, but the cases involve personal injury not property damage and I don't know what courts in these jurisdictions would hold with respect to property damage.

The journal I cited above is property damage and the Judge in the case apparently felt that even a pro cannot control their shot 100% of the time and if you have property that adjoins a golf course that lacks protection (fence, screen, whatever) then you as the property owner are essentially failing to insure you did everything possible to protect from damages.
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#29 Skhacker

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 11:27 PM

I may be in the minority here, but why wouldn't you pay for someone else's property you damaged? As long as the quote is a legit price, man up and be accountable.

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#30 Larry The Golfing Doc

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 09:26 PM

5k for a window pane is reasonable? I had my old house totally redone with energy efficient windows. Each and every window, installed. From quote to new windows everywhere.  I didn't pay 5k for that. I'd certainly offer to pay for damage that I caused to anything. Within reason. A claim of 5k would make my response an automatic, "see you in court then!"  Lol at anyone that would think a single window pane should top 1k let alone 5. Especially for someone that has their house lining a golf course. If those people don't have a cheap window guy on speedial then all hope is lost. Sounds like a serious shakedown effort to me. The window repair call probably went like this, "hey Roger it's me again. Yeah, yeah. Some hack broke my window again. Sure, 130.00 it is! I hope the kids are well". Lol. Trying to shake the next 36 window repairs out of someone is more shameful than someone that hits one and doesn't claim it.

When I was growing up, I (allegedly) threw a rock through a window in our shed. My dad was insistent on teaching me a lesson so he stated I would have to pay for it. I came home from school and noticed that there was mirrored glass in the window I broke. I remember him telling me "son, the regular glass was 2.00 but I always wanted a mirror there so it costs 100.00". What? That was an infinitesimal sum back then. When I stammered and stuttered around that fact he smiled and said that I was lucky. He just happened to have the mirror around and it cost 0.00. Whew. I'm not sure how I'd have paid for the 100.00 window, and am very glad I didn't have to. Lesson learned however, don't throw rocks at the shed.


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