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Third best player of all time?


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#811 Shilgy

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:28 AM

Joe Tiger won his last major at 33. Similar to Watson Seve and Arnie. If Tiger didn't break his leg or have his other various issues how many would he have won? If Hogan had not served in the military perhaps something else happens and he wins less than the storyline we have today. All we have is what really did happen. And what really did happen is that Jack Tiger is one two.
  You keep saying Hogan missed 4 years. He missed two. As for majors he did not win any in 1947 either. Maybe we could consider that the norm for his missed events. And please remember that he did benefit from weaker fields due to the war as well. I gotta believe some fine players that were never heard of died in the two wars. Like Freddie Tate.

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#812 widow-maker

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 10:23 AM

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

Joe Tiger won his last major at 33. Similar to Watson Seve and Arnie. If Tiger didn't break his leg or have his other various issues how many would he have won? If Hogan had not served in the military perhaps something else happens and he wins less than the storyline we have today. All we have is what really did happen. And what really did happen is that Jack Tiger is one two.
  You keep saying Hogan missed 4 years. He missed two. As for majors he did not win any in 1947 either. Maybe we could consider that the norm for his missed events. And please remember that he did benefit from weaker fields due to the war as well. I gotta believe some fine players that were never heard of died in the two wars. Like Freddie Tate.
Not to mention that Snead also missed those war years and maybe he would have won 2 or 3 more majors.  Hogan's success and all of his majors came after the war.  Snead was probably more on the cusp of winning in 1942 than Hogan was.  Hogan's major advance in his swing really came in 1946 and after.  I think Hogan's accident was more a detriment to his career marks than the war was.  He really had it rolling in 1948, and then the car accident wiped out '49 and in '50, '51, and '52 he was limited to only entering 2 majors each year.  He was forced to stop playing in the PGA Championship altogether after the accident because he couldn't play 36 a day and he only competed in the British Open in '53 because of the toll a trip like that took on him. So, from 1950 on (with the exception of 1953), he was limited to playing the Masters and the US Open as his only two majors that he participated in.  He basically cut himself out of half of his Major opportunities because of his health.

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#813 Joe85

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 11:59 AM

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

Joe Tiger won his last major at 33. Similar to Watson Seve and Arnie. If Tiger didn't break his leg or have his other various issues how many would he have won? If Hogan had not served in the military perhaps something else happens and he wins less than the storyline we have today. All we have is what really did happen. And what really did happen is that Jack Tiger is one two.
  You keep saying Hogan missed 4 years. He missed two. As for majors he did not win any in 1947 either. Maybe we could consider that the norm for his missed events. And please remember that he did benefit from weaker fields due to the war as well. I gotta believe some fine players that were never heard of died in the two wars. Like Freddie Tate.


What's your point? If Tiger is out at age 31 (like Hogan), he is lighter a few more majors. Furthermore, those were Hogan's prime years - he won 6 majors after the age of 33. There are also speculation that Tiger was all 'roided up (look at how small he was when he was in college for God's sake and look at him now - it's preposterous to not think that's at least a possibility).  


Soooooo, there are all kinds of variables.


The difference between me and the majority of today's quick fix live-in-the-moment low attention span youngsters (and even older generations) is that I can see past the live-in-the-moment hype, take a step back, take a breath, and examine these greats against history.


I can see I am in a minority, and that's fine; at least I brought a little bit of a different perspective on the matter here.


I do believe Jones, Hogan and certainly Jack would have wiped up courses with Tiger had they went up against him. But...that's me.


Enjoy the Open today!

Edited by Joe85, 18 June 2017 - 12:03 PM.

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#814 Shilgy

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:44 PM

Joe, you said
The difference between me and the majority of today's quick fix live-in-the-moment low attention span youngsters (and even older generations) is that I can see past the live-in-the-moment hype, take a step back, take a breath, and examine these greats against history.

What are the odds...I'm sure it's possible but what are the odds... that all of the best players EVER started their career nearly a century ago and none in the last 40?  Heck they were all born over 80 years ago. Based on your argument not only has human evolution completely skipped the sport of golf it has completely devolved into something that can never ever touch these titans of the game. In another hundred years will we be saying that Jack Nicklaus IX is ok with his domination of the world tour but never could have played with his ancestor?

Edited by Shilgy, 18 June 2017 - 03:56 PM.

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#815 Joe85

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 04:45 PM

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

Joe, you said
The difference between me and the majority of today's quick fix live-in-the-moment low attention span youngsters (and even older generations) is that I can see past the live-in-the-moment hype, take a step back, take a breath, and examine these greats against history.

What are the odds...I'm sure it's possible but what are the odds... that all of the best players EVER started their career nearly a century ago and none in the last 40?  Heck they were all born over 80 years ago. Based on your argument not only has human evolution completely skipped the sport of golf it has completely devolved into something that can never ever touch these titans of the game. In another hundred years will we be saying that Jack Nicklaus IX is ok with his domination of the world tour but never could have played with his ancestor?


Jones retired at age 28 and damn near won almost every major he entered. People here will pooh pooh him left and right with hardly anyone here pointing out his record. Nicklaus, well no one here is going to argue he isn't top 2. Hogan - I laid out my case for Hogan over Woods. No bone to pick here with you - I said what I wanted to say.

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#816 Joe85

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 04:48 PM

I could go on and on about Bobby Jones' accolades and the vast majority here would pooh pooh it as "weakness of era" or this that and the third.
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#817 Finbarr Saunders

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 04:49 PM

Before tigers latest misdemeanor it was a coin flip between him and Player who was second best. Mr Player now sits comfortably in 2nd place but how far down the list is tiger now

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#818 Shilgy

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:03 PM

View PostFinbarr Saunders, on 18 June 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

Before tigers latest misdemeanor it was a coin flip between him and Player who was second best. Mr Player now sits comfortably in 2nd place but how far down the list is tiger now
Gee, what happened? Did they take some of Tigers wins away? Jack is number one and Tiger is #2. It's really hard to see it any other way.
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#819 Shilgy

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:07 PM

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

I could go on and on about Bobby Jones' accolades and the vast majority here would pooh pooh it as "weakness of era" or this that and the third.
Era had talent but it was a very shallow pool as it was diluted by ww1 and then depression. Jones won seven majors. Calling the amateur wins majors is ridiculous.
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#820 Joe85

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:24 PM

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Jones won seven majors. Calling the amateur wins majors is ridiculous.


No need to even respond to you at that point. How old are you?  You should read up on what prestige they were held. Did Tiger ever get a ticker tape parade (or one, period) for his amateurs, let alone his majors?

Enjoy the Open...

Edited by Joe85, 18 June 2017 - 05:25 PM.

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#821 dlygrisse

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:32 PM

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Jones won seven majors. Calling the amateur wins majors is ridiculous.


No need to even respond to you at that point. How old are you?  You should read up on what prestige they were held. Did Tiger ever get a ticker tape parade (or one, period) for his amateurs, let alone his majors?

Enjoy the Open...

Most people considered Jacks Atm's as majors. If you watch a clip of him winning in 1986 Ken Venturi stsates Jack now has 20 majors.

I'm not so sure about that but I do think Am wins before WWII should count. They were very prestigious at the time. Many of the best players did not turn pro then.
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#822 Joe85

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:34 PM

View Postdlygrisse, on 18 June 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Jones won seven majors. Calling the amateur wins majors is ridiculous.


No need to even respond to you at that point. How old are you?  You should read up on what prestige they were held. Did Tiger ever get a ticker tape parade (or one, period) for his amateurs, let alone his majors?

Enjoy the Open...

Most people considered Jacks Atm's as majors. If you watch a clip of him winning in 1986 Ken Venturi stsates Jack now has 20 majors.

I'm not so sure about that but I do think Am wins before WWII should count. They were very prestigious at the time. Many of the best players did not turn pro then.


Yes I've heard Jack refer to his as majors as well.
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#823 Shilgy

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 07:16 PM

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Jones won seven majors. Calling the amateur wins majors is ridiculous.


No need to even respond to you at that point. How old are you?  You should read up on what prestige they were held. Did Tiger ever get a ticker tape parade (or one, period) for his amateurs, let alone his majors?

Enjoy the Open...
Likely older than you. It's still prestigious to win the amateur. Is it the equivalent of winning any tour event? Now we grade wins by parades given? We disagree and that's fine. The first US Open had 11 contestants. Jones's first was just 28 years later and had 77 players, no cut. If you value that higher than events today you're right, nothing more for us to discuss.
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#824 Ashley Schaeffer

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 07:18 PM

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

View Postdlygrisse, on 18 June 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Jones won seven majors. Calling the amateur wins majors is ridiculous.


No need to even respond to you at that point. How old are you?  You should read up on what prestige they were held. Did Tiger ever get a ticker tape parade (or one, period) for his amateurs, let alone his majors?

Enjoy the Open...

Most people considered Jacks Atm's as majors. If you watch a clip of him winning in 1986 Ken Venturi stsates Jack now has 20 majors.

I'm not so sure about that but I do think Am wins before WWII should count. They were very prestigious at the time. Many of the best players did not turn pro then.


Yes I've heard Jack refer to his as majors as well.

Of course he would, hahaha!
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#825 Shilgy

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 07:20 PM

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 18 June 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

View Postdlygrisse, on 18 June 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Jones won seven majors. Calling the amateur wins majors is ridiculous.


No need to even respond to you at that point. How old are you?  You should read up on what prestige they were held. Did Tiger ever get a ticker tape parade (or one, period) for his amateurs, let alone his majors?

Enjoy the Open...

Most people considered Jacks Atm's as majors. If you watch a clip of him winning in 1986 Ken Venturi stsates Jack now has 20 majors.

I'm not so sure about that but I do think Am wins before WWII should count. They were very prestigious at the time. Many of the best players did not turn pro then.


Yes I've heard Jack refer to his as majors as well.

Of course he would, hahaha!
Cool, Woods just got one closer?

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#826 Ashley Schaeffer

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 07:24 PM

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#827 redfirebird08

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 07:44 PM

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:


I do believe Jones, Hogan and certainly Jack would have wiped up courses with Tiger had they went up against him. But...that's me.


It's interesting you accused other people of being biased earlier in this thread. Prime Tiger would have put up a very good fight against those guys. They all would win their fair share against each other. All of them were great players. You seem to think TW was a scrub.

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#828 fowlerscousin

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 07:45 PM

Brooks koepka

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#829 cdnglf

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:07 AM

View Postdlygrisse, on 18 June 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Jones won seven majors. Calling the amateur wins majors is ridiculous.


No need to even respond to you at that point. How old are you?  You should read up on what prestige they were held. Did Tiger ever get a ticker tape parade (or one, period) for his amateurs, let alone his majors?

Enjoy the Open...

Most people considered Jacks Atm's as majors. If you watch a clip of him winning in 1986 Ken Venturi stsates Jack now has 20 majors.

I'm not so sure about that but I do think Am wins before WWII should count. They were very prestigious at the time. Many of the best players did not turn pro then.

Count as what? Accomplishments of note? Sure. Equivalent to OWGR-era majors? Crazy. Every major today includes all the top 50 players in the world. Did the US Ams of the 1920s include even 10 of the top 50 players in the world at that time? Did the British Am include even 5? Can you name one notable Am of the time other than Jones? Hagen, Sarazen, Armour, Barnes, Cooper - all pros.

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#830 Roadking2003

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:35 AM

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

I could go on and on about Bobby Jones' accolades and the vast majority here would pooh pooh it as "weakness of era" or this that and the third.

Not "weakness of era".  Just a very small number of wins.  He may have had the best five year run ever, but the GOAT is an entire career.


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#831 Roadking2003

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:36 AM

View Postdlygrisse, on 18 June 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Jones won seven majors. Calling the amateur wins majors is ridiculous.


No need to even respond to you at that point. How old are you?  You should read up on what prestige they were held. Did Tiger ever get a ticker tape parade (or one, period) for his amateurs, let alone his majors?

Enjoy the Open...

Most people considered Jacks Atm's as majors.

No, not "most people".  In fact, very few.

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#832 Finbarr Saunders

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:02 PM

"Cool, Woods just got one closer?"

Incorrect, when jack was an amateur everyone considered them majors, when tiger won them no one classed them as majors

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#833 Shilgy

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:23 PM

View PostFinbarr Saunders, on 19 June 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

"Cool, Woods just got one closer?"

Incorrect, when jack was an amateur everyone considered them majors, when tiger won them no one classed them as majors
So Jack has 20? Hard to tell the players without a scorecard.
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#834 Joe85

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:40 PM

View Postredfirebird08, on 18 June 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

I do believe Jones, Hogan and certainly Jack would have wiped up courses with Tiger had they went up against him. But...that's me.


It's interesting you accused other people of being biased earlier in this thread. Prime Tiger would have put up a very good fight against those guys. They all would win their fair share against each other. All of them were great players. You seem to think TW was a scrub.


As if the overwhelming vast majority of people posting/talking today don't live in the moment (and overhype quite a lot)?


I think you might be able to argue Tiger had the best run/stretch in history (although Bobby Jones' four in a year is the greatest YEAR ever, IMO).


Tiger cut up the US Open to a...was it 15 stroke victory at Pebble? That was insane, flat out.


But I still am going to say BJ is the greatest. Retiring at 28 is nuts with all that he was doing.
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#835 drbob28

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:04 PM

View PostShilgy, on 18 May 2017 - 10:49 PM, said:

View PostJunkerJorge, on 18 May 2017 - 10:34 PM, said:

Hogan didn't really go on a tear until Byron Nelson took his ball and went home. Just saying.
And Nelson won 38 of his 52 tour wins from 1941-1946. Rest of the world was otherwise occupied as I recall. Just saying.
Ditto...Nelson's consecutive victory streak was also during WWII.
My vote: Hogan


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#836 Shilgy

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:18 PM

View PostJoe85, on 19 June 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

View Postredfirebird08, on 18 June 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

I do believe Jones, Hogan and certainly Jack would have wiped up courses with Tiger had they went up against him. But...that's me.


It's interesting you accused other people of being biased earlier in this thread. Prime Tiger would have put up a very good fight against those guys. They all would win their fair share against each other. All of them were great players. You seem to think TW was a scrub.


As if the overwhelming vast majority of people posting/talking today don't live in the moment (and overhype quite a lot)?


I think you might be able to argue Tiger had the best run/stretch in history (although Bobby Jones' four in a year is the greatest YEAR ever, IMO).


Tiger cut up the US Open to a...was it 15 stroke victory at Pebble? That was insane, flat out.


But I still am going to say BJ is the greatest. Retiring at 28 is nuts with all that he was doing.
And that is why we can have these discussions. We all have opinions. I can think of a few years that were better imo than Jones in 1930 but you are certainly entitled to yours.  You highly value amateur events-others do not.
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#837 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:52 PM

I was just looking at past majors. Jack won the PGA in 71 and then the Masters and US Open in 72. Then Trevino did the chip in thing to win the Open by one.

Jack was one shot away from his own "Tiger Slam", as well as having the first three legs of the Grand Slam.

Not really relevant to anything, knew about him having the first two, just not about him having the last one of the previous year.
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#838 cdnglf

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:57 PM

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 19 June 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

I was just looking at past majors. Jack won the PGA in 71 and then the Masters and US Open in 72. Then Trevino did the chip in thing to win the Open by one.

Jack was one shot away from his own "Tiger Slam", as well as having the first three legs of the Grand Slam.

Not really relevant to anything, knew about him having the first two, just not about him having the last one of the previous year.

The 1971 PGA was held in February.... so the hypothetical "Jack slam" would have been pretty cool and the subject of endless WRX debate: all four majors, but not four majors in a row.

Edited by cdnglf, 19 June 2017 - 01:59 PM.


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#839 redfirebird08

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:03 PM

View PostJoe85, on 19 June 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:


I think you might be able to argue Tiger had the best run/stretch in history (although Bobby Jones' four in a year is the greatest YEAR ever, IMO).


Tiger cut up the US Open to a...was it 15 stroke victory at Pebble? That was insane, flat out.


But I still am going to say BJ is the greatest. Retiring at 28 is nuts with all that he was doing.

Bobby was incredible, no doubt. Given everything he did on the course and then creating The Masters, Jones is right there with Arnold Palmer as the most important pro golfers ever.

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#840 dlygrisse

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:07 PM

View Postcdnglf, on 19 June 2017 - 12:07 AM, said:

View Postdlygrisse, on 18 June 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

View PostJoe85, on 18 June 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 18 June 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Jones won seven majors. Calling the amateur wins majors is ridiculous.


No need to even respond to you at that point. How old are you?  You should read up on what prestige they were held. Did Tiger ever get a ticker tape parade (or one, period) for his amateurs, let alone his majors?

Enjoy the Open...

Most people considered Jacks Atm's as majors. If you watch a clip of him winning in 1986 Ken Venturi stsates Jack now has 20 majors.

I'm not so sure about that but I do think Am wins before WWII should count. They were very prestigious at the time. Many of the best players did not turn pro then.

Count as what? Accomplishments of note? Sure. Equivalent to OWGR-era majors? Crazy. Every major today includes all the top 50 players in the world. Did the US Ams of the 1920s include even 10 of the top 50 players in the world at that time? Did the British Am include even 5? Can you name one notable Am of the time other than Jones? Hagen, Sarazen, Armour, Barnes, Cooper - all pros.

Francis Ouimet, Chick Evans.

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