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Big Bad Low Spin Shaft Review - Continuous On Going Information and Data Updates


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#661 TollBros

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 04:07 PM

 gr8 flopshot, on 28 February 2018 - 01:43 PM, said:

Is it just me or did it seem like all the testers thought the Hzrdus Yellow was too high spin for them but when you look at their carry distances, the shaft was within 5 yards of the longest shaft?  Does smooth translate to the belief of high spin?

Remember that's solely carry under near windless conditions. Change that to a 15mph head wind and it's 20+ yards shorter.

 gr8 flopshot, on 28 February 2018 - 01:43 PM, said:

Is it just me or did it seem like all the testers thought the Hzrdus Yellow was too high spin for them but when you look at their carry distances, the shaft was within 5 yards of the longest shaft?  Does smooth translate to the belief of high spin?

Remember that's solely carry under near windless conditions. Change that to a 15mph head wind and it's 20+ yards shorter.

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#662 gr8 flopshot

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 04:20 PM

I guess that is a fair enough statement but those other shafts will be shorter in a head wind as well.  I just found the minute difference in carry odd based on how the majority of them basically had the same comments about feel and spin.  I was just fitted into the Hzrdus yellow (black with yelllow writing) and it works great for me.  It actually had lower spin than the Tensei White.  I guess that's why we go through the fitting.  to each his/her own.
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#663 JStang

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 04:27 PM

 gr8 flopshot, on 28 February 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

I guess that is a fair enough statement but those other shafts will be shorter in a head wind as well.  I just found the minute difference in carry odd based on how the majority of them basically had the same comments about feel and spin.  I was just fitted into the Hzrdus yellow (black with yelllow writing) and it works great for me.  It actually had lower spin than the Tensei White.  I guess that's why we go through the fitting.  to each his/her own.

Plus more backswing = less roll out. A lot of times, more spin = longer carry but shorter overall distance.
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#664 Mario Good Times

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 05:49 PM

Does Kuro Kage xt make a hybrid shaft in the 90 gram range

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#665 TollBros

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 07:58 PM

 Mario Good Times, on 28 February 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

Does Kuro Kage xt make a hybrid shaft in the 90 gram range

There is a silver 90, but no XT hybrid. The lowest spin Mitsubishi hybrid would be Tensei Pro White 100tx.

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#666 TollBros

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 08:01 PM

 gr8 flopshot, on 28 February 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

I guess that is a fair enough statement but those other shafts will be shorter in a head wind as well.  I just found the minute difference in carry odd based on how the majority of them basically had the same comments about feel and spin.  I was just fitted into the Hzrdus yellow (black with yelllow writing) and it works great for me.  It actually had lower spin than the Tensei White.  I guess that's why we go through the fitting.  to each his/her own.

Sounds like you are very sensitive to shaft weight and balance point. Yellow being counterbanced most likely allowed you to hold your angle better. There are some players that will cast a stiffer tip or heavier shaft and cut across it, creating more spin. Swinging with the same angle and release point, Pro White is a far lower spin product.
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#667 TollBros

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.
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#668 collje26

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 09:31 PM

 J13, on 12 February 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 12 February 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

 Pomps, on 11 February 2018 - 11:05 AM, said:

I have the v3 as well in my TI M2. I'm not getting along with it too well. It doesn't feel great and a I haven't experienced the increased ball speed over most other shafts. I've tried adding no weight and letting it play at a lighter sw, adding all the weight, some of the weight, etc. Just hasn't benefitted me the same as a lot of the other reports. I basically have the same ball speed, launch and spin numbers with it.

For guys sensitive to feel, some can release the club differently based on that. I've seen a few anomalies where players launched a softer tip shaft lower with less spin than tip stiff because they didn't get along with the feel and would release early. There are some players who subconsciously release differently based on feel. You could be one of those guys.

Late release guys benefit from softer tips.  A buddy is like that.  Former mini tour player and plays a Mitsu Blue profil shaft and spins it significantly less then the white.  Odd.

Iam the same. Ive tried so many shafts. Pro orange, green mamba, phened and hzrdus yellow and cant find anything better than my diamana s+ 70tx.
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#669 JStang

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 09:37 PM

 TollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kàge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

I'm all ears on the XD and Rogue 135. I would love to see Aldila get back in the game. I feel like they've been kind of an afterthought over the past couple of years.
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#670 Deuce78

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 09:57 PM

Aldila is about to have too many options then, they already are coming out with the mamba series (great), and the synergy, and now a new rogue?

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#671 cali_catalyst

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 09:58 PM

 JStang, on 28 February 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kàge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

I'm all ears on the XD and Rogue 135. I would love to see Aldila get back in the game. I feel like they've been kind of an afterthought over the past couple of years.

135...??!?!?!?! grams??!!?!?!? Jeebus... If so, I hope the thing swings itself. I have an old NV 95 and the thing is a frigging tank. Aldila is back in the game... Synergy is all you need to know. Mamba was good, but I am so glad I picked up a 70tx from Toll... can't wait to get it on Torrey South and Bandon in the next few weeks!!!
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#672 J13

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 09:58 PM

 TollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kàge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

Is the KK Dual Core XD the retail version of the  KK DC TX that's been out on tour?

Edited by J13, 28 February 2018 - 09:58 PM.

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#673 jll62

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 10:43 PM

 cali_catalyst, on 28 February 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

 JStang, on 28 February 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kàge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

I'm all ears on the XD and Rogue 135. I would love to see Aldila get back in the game. I feel like they've been kind of an afterthought over the past couple of years.

135...??!?!?!?! grams??!!?!?!? Jeebus... If so, I hope the thing swings itself. I have an old NV 95 and the thing is a frigging tank. Aldila is back in the game... Synergy is all you need to know. Mamba was good, but I am so glad I picked up a 70tx from Toll... can't wait to get it on Torrey South and Bandon in the next few weeks!!!

MSI 135 is not a weight measurement. It's a measure of the tensile modulus (think: elasticity) of some of the carbon fiber composite used to make the shaft. The higher the number, the less likely the material is to deform under certain forces, so you can get more stiffness and/or reduced torque, depending upon where the material is used.

The downside is that materials with high MSI values are quite brittle, so you can't make an entire shaft out of the stuff or it would literally shatter. Shaft manufacturers use a blend of different types of fibers when making a shaft, and the high MSI materials can be used in portions of the shaft to tune the stiffness.

Edited by jll62, 28 February 2018 - 10:43 PM.

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#674 Pomps

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 11:51 PM

 TollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

This almost makes me sad because now matter much how much I like my current setup, I won’t be able to resist.

I’ve literally gone through all of these in these in the last year or so:

Rogue 125 70s
Rogue 125 70x
Rogue Black 70x
Hzrdus black 6.5
Hzrdus t1100 6.0
Tensei PO V2 60tx
Tensei PO V2 70TX
Tensei PO V3 70TX
Tensei PB 60tx
KK DC XT 60tX
KK XT 60 TX
Diamana D+ Ltd 70x
Diamana BF 70TX

That’s just drivers.

Please help.
TaylorMade 2016 Tour Issue M2 9.8* - Project X Hzrdus Black 75 6.25 - 44.5" (D5)
TaylorMade M3 3 wood 15* - Project X Hzrdus Black 75g 6.5 - 42.875" (D6)
TaylorMade p790 UDI 2 Iron - Project X Hzrdus Black 85 6.0 (D4; 2* flat)
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#675 ebrasmus21

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 11:54 PM

 Pomps, on 28 February 2018 - 11:51 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kàge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

This almost makes me sad because now matter much how much I like my current setup, I won’t be able to resist.

I’ve literally gone through all of these in these in the last year or so:

Rogue 125 70s
Rogue 125 70x
Rogue Black 70x
Hzrdus black 6.5
Hzrdus t1100 6.0
Tensei PO V2 60tx
Tensei PO V2 70TX
Tensei PO V3 70TX
Tensei PB 60tx
KK DC XT 60tX
KK XT 60 TX
Diamana D+ Ltd 70x
Diamana BF 70TX

That’s just drivers.

Please help.

You, sir, have a problem.  That's some big time shaft hoe status.

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#676 cali_catalyst

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 12:12 AM

 Pomps, on 28 February 2018 - 11:51 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kàge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

This almost makes me sad because now matter much how much I like my current setup, I won’t be able to resist.

I’ve literally gone through all of these in these in the last year or so:

Rogue 125 70s
Rogue 125 70x
Rogue Black 70x
Hzrdus black 6.5
Hzrdus t1100 6.0
Tensei PO V2 60tx
Tensei PO V2 70TX
Tensei PO V3 70TX
Tensei PB 60tx
KK DC XT 60tX
KK XT 60 TX
Diamana D+ Ltd 70x
Diamana BF 70TX

That’s just drivers.

Please help.

I feel like you have given me proof of my addiction. In 4 months, I have purchased;

- Mamba 70 and 80
- Tensei White TX
- Synergy 60 (returned for 70) TX
- Evo 2 757
- Evo 661 2.0 ("DJ Shaft")

Scared... that I may regress and start another round of "testing" with these new findings.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
Driver: M3 440 + Synergy 70TX or Tensi White 70TX
2-iron: Cobra Forged CB | KBS Tour 130x
3-PW: MP18 MB | KBS Tour 130x
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#677 TollBros

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 12:29 AM

 JStang, on 28 February 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

I'm all ears on the XD and Rogue 135. I would love to see Aldila get back in the game. I feel like they've been kind of an afterthought over the past couple of years.

There are two models we have had in testing. I am okay to discuss these to some degree according to Keith so I'll let you guys in on the two I've personally been running through the paces.

135 MSI, not sure what they will call it other than next gen Rogue. It is less counterbalanced than the previous 125, stiffer in the tip, completely redesigned with even higher grade materials, new tip material to the line, and significantly lower spin than the previous model. Think, Tensei Pro Orange, with even less spin, but a balance point in between Pro Orange and Pro White. It's good, really good. Should be less expensive than the previous 125 as well. I think just under $500. The ion plated finish on these protos is great looking also. If that will carry over to retail, I don't know yet.

Tour Proto. No idea where this will fit or even if it will ever come to retail.

Yes both will be available through us at some point soon. The 135 maybe a week or two. The other, a little down the road.
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#678 TollBros

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 12:35 AM

 J13, on 28 February 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kàge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

Is the KK Dual Core XD the retail version of the  KK DC TX that's been out on tour?

It isn't. It's actually called a Dual Core, but there is, in reality a third layer of fibers, effectively making it Tri Core. The spin rates are pretty similar on the DCXT and the XD, but the XD is a little more crisp in the tip more like the old version of KK XT. From a performance standpoint the spin rates are similar. Some guys are getting slight variations in spin rate, on identical launch angle hits, but for the most part they are pretty close, with the exception of one type of player, and we will get into that next week. It is certainly crisper feeling where the DCXT is a bit more smoothe and has that sort of varying flex dynamic that guys talk so much about. I'd call it somewhere in between original XT and DCXT in terms of feel, but more DCXT in terms of spin. The graphics are also much nicer, with the prism graphic and some ion plated affect to it. It just looks more rich and high end compared the pretty basic Dual Core graphics. I think guys who maybe wanted something a little tighter feeling than DCXT will really like this XD profile. I'll have data up next week this time.
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#679 TollBros

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 12:42 AM

 cali_catalyst, on 01 March 2018 - 12:12 AM, said:

 Pomps, on 28 February 2018 - 11:51 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kàge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

This almost makes me sad because now matter much how much I like my current setup, I won’t be able to resist.

I’ve literally gone through all of these in these in the last year or so:

Rogue 125 70s
Rogue 125 70x
Rogue Black 70x
Hzrdus black 6.5
Hzrdus t1100 6.0
Tensei PO V2 60tx
Tensei PO V2 70TX
Tensei PO V3 70TX
Tensei PB 60tx
KK DC XT 60tX
KK XT 60 TX
Diamana D+ Ltd 70x
Diamana BF 70TX

That’s just drivers.

Please help.

I feel like you have given me proof of my addiction. In 4 months, I have purchased;

- Mamba 70 and 80
- Tensei White TX
- Synergy 60 (returned for 70) TX
- Evo 2 757
- Evo 661 2.0 ("DJ Shaft")

Scared... that I may regress and start another round of "testing" with these new findings.

If I didn't have this job, I would be just like you guys. I can't resist trying the newest high end product. With all the multi material products with different balance points, feel dynamics, and new technology, it's a wonderful time to be able to do what we do. The last 2 years have been very exciting for shaft advancement, and it's not stopping anytime soon. It's what I am most passionate about and it keeps every new batch of testing very exciting.
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#680 jbole267

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 12:51 AM

That rogue 135MSI sounds like music to my ears, as I got along great with the 125MSI. If they can just improve on the look — really the only thing I didn't like about it, then count me in. Anxiously waiting to get more information.

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Titleist Vokey Sm7 50°
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#681 JStang

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 08:31 AM

View PostTollBros, on 01 March 2018 - 12:29 AM, said:

View PostJStang, on 28 February 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

View PostTollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kàge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

I'm all ears on the XD and Rogue 135. I would love to see Aldila get back in the game. I feel like they've been kind of an afterthought over the past couple of years.

There are two models we have had in testing. I am okay to discuss these to some degree according to Keith so I'll let you guys in on the two I've personally been running through the paces.

135 MSI, not sure what they will call it other than next gen Rogue. It is less counterbalanced than the previous 125, stiffer in the tip, completely redesigned with even higher grade materials, new tip material to the line, and significantly lower spin than the previous model. Think, Tensei Pro Orange, with even less spin, but a balance point in between Pro Orange and Pro White. It's good, really good. Should be less expensive than the previous 125 as well. I think just under $500. The ion plated finish on these protos is great looking also. If that will carry over to retail, I don't know yet.

Tour Proto. No idea where this will fit or even if it will ever come to retail. It's an even higher balance point, ie more counter weighted than the previous line, and even more than Tensei Pro Orange. It also has an extremely stiff tip section with some near Synergy Black type spin rates. For guys that want counterbalanced but massive spin reduction, this one is right up your alley. I don't know anything about the materials or even a name on this one yet, but it's pretty wicked.

Yes both will be available through us at some point soon. The 135 maybe a week or two. The other, a little down the road.

The 135 sounds really interesting. I am just to the point where I don't think I need anything lower spin in my life than what I have (KK Dual Core TX and Tensei White TX). I swing it around 113 on GC2 and these shafts tipped 1/2" seem to give me perfect launch and spin conditions with a positive angle of attack. It just comes down to feel at this point. However, I know there is a market for guys who swing it 120+ or fight spin issues for one reason or another that could use the lower spin products.
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#682 manima1

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 08:52 AM

View PostJStang, on 01 March 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

View PostTollBros, on 01 March 2018 - 12:29 AM, said:

View PostJStang, on 28 February 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

View PostTollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

I will be adding some data on Kuro Kàge Dual Core XD next week as well as some new info on the newest msi135 Rogue. Yes I said 135.

I'm all ears on the XD and Rogue 135. I would love to see Aldila get back in the game. I feel like they've been kind of an afterthought over the past couple of years.

There are two models we have had in testing. I am okay to discuss these to some degree according to Keith so I'll let you guys in on the two I've personally been running through the paces.

135 MSI, not sure what they will call it other than next gen Rogue. It is less counterbalanced than the previous 125, stiffer in the tip, completely redesigned with even higher grade materials, new tip material to the line, and significantly lower spin than the previous model. Think, Tensei Pro Orange, with even less spin, but a balance point in between Pro Orange and Pro White. It's good, really good. Should be less expensive than the previous 125 as well. I think just under $500. The ion plated finish on these protos is great looking also. If that will carry over to retail, I don't know yet.

Tour Proto. No idea where this will fit or even if it will ever come to retail. It's an even higher balance point, ie more counter weighted than the previous line, and even more than Tensei Pro Orange. It also has an extremely stiff tip section with some near Synergy Black type spin rates. For guys that want counterbalanced but massive spin reduction, this one is right up your alley. I don't know anything about the materials or even a name on this one yet, but it's pretty wicked.

Yes both will be available through us at some point soon. The 135 maybe a week or two. The other, a little down the road.

The 135 sounds really interesting. I am just to the point where I don't think I need anything lower spin in my life than what I have (KK Dual Core TX and Tensei White TX). I swing it around 113 on GC2 and these shafts tipped 1/2" seem to give me perfect launch and spin conditions with a positive angle of attack. It just comes down to feel at this point. However, I know there is a market for guys who swing it 120+ or fight spin issues for one reason or another that could use the lower spin products.

I'm with you.  I bring it at a very similar swing speed and just can't imagine needing further spin reduction after tipping my KKDC XT 1" and putting it on my 16' 8.5 M2 head.  Never really thought I would say that either.
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#683 jcg132

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 09:23 AM

Toll -

Sorry if i missed this, but will you be putting this new data in this thread or a completely new thread?

Thanks.
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#684 TollBros

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 11:06 AM



I think when you reach the point where you don't need further spin reduction, you just decide if maybe cutting spin another 400-500rpm and going up in loft a degree or two to keep the same spin rates, but increase the launch angle might benefit you. If not, then stick with that area of shaft. The only thing that's really going to spin less than what you have by a reasonable margin, is Synergy Black at this point, and possibly one of the Tour Rogue shafts.
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#685 TollBros

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 11:07 AM

View Postjcg132, on 01 March 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

Toll -

Sorry if i missed this, but will you be putting this new data in this thread or a completely new thread?

Thanks.

Most likely both. This thread seems to really be a very popular "go to" type of thread, so I'll include some data screens in here as well, but the full write up will be in a brand new thread so that nobody who is interested misses it.

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#686 Craigstands17

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 02:24 PM

Was a very big fan of the Rogue 125 TX and  cant wait to hear more about this Rogue 135 everything posted above about it sounds great so far.
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#687 gr8 flopshot

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 04:53 PM

View PostTollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:01 PM, said:

View Postgr8 flopshot, on 28 February 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

I guess that is a fair enough statement but those other shafts will be shorter in a head wind as well.  I just found the minute difference in carry odd based on how the majority of them basically had the same comments about feel and spin.  I was just fitted into the Hzrdus yellow (black with yelllow writing) and it works great for me.  It actually had lower spin than the Tensei White.  I guess that's why we go through the fitting.  to each his/her own.

Sounds like you are very sensitive to shaft weight and balance point. Yellow being counterbanced most likely allowed you to hold your angle better. There are some players that will cast a stiffer tip or heavier shaft and cut across it, creating more spin. Swinging with the same angle and release point, Pro White is a far lower spin product.
That makes sense.  Before this I was playing the UST Axivcore Green in my driver.  From what I understand, it was a higher spin shaft than the axivcore red but my numbers with the green outperformed the red all day.  Who knew counterbalance could make such a difference.  Thanks for the 411.
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#688 collje26

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 10:37 PM

I just want to express my appreciation for Tollbros and everyone who assisted in this. Ive been comparing my numbers from my local trackman and equipment knowledge to what I play/been trying and have settled on the pro blue based on the info provided. Thanks a bunch man!
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#689 J13

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 09:38 AM

View PostCraigstands17, on 01 March 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

Was a very big fan of the Rogue 125 TX and  cant wait to hear more about this Rogue 135 everything posted above about it sounds great so far.

Rogue 125 was a weird one.  It was an overnight success and an overnight failure on tour.  Very strange.  I had one and liked the feel but dispersion was not good enough and left was very much in play.
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#690 dpb5031

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 09:52 AM

View Postgr8 flopshot, on 01 March 2018 - 04:53 PM, said:

View PostTollBros, on 28 February 2018 - 08:01 PM, said:

View Postgr8 flopshot, on 28 February 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

I guess that is a fair enough statement but those other shafts will be shorter in a head wind as well.  I just found the minute difference in carry odd based on how the majority of them basically had the same comments about feel and spin.  I was just fitted into the Hzrdus yellow (black with yelllow writing) and it works great for me.  It actually had lower spin than the Tensei White.  I guess that's why we go through the fitting.  to each his/her own.

Sounds like you are very sensitive to shaft weight and balance point. Yellow being counterbanced most likely allowed you to hold your angle better. There are some players that will cast a stiffer tip or heavier shaft and cut across it, creating more spin. Swinging with the same angle and release point, Pro White is a far lower spin product.
That makes sense.  Before this I was playing the UST Axivcore Green in my driver.  From what I understand, it was a higher spin shaft than the axivcore red but my numbers with the green outperformed the red all day.  Who knew counterbalance could make such a difference.  Thanks for the 411.

I'm not a shaft expert but I've played Axivcore Green extensively.  It's a great shaft and very inexpensive.  I think it's a tip-stiff "low balance point shaft," opposite of counter-balanced.  The Axivcore Black is the counter balanced model and higher launching than green.  Axivcore Red is higher launch/higher spin with a more active tip section.  Makes sense that the Green spun less than Ref as it's supposed to from my understanding

Now I certainly could be wrong, but I think I've got it right....

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