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Big Bad Low Spin Shaft Review - Continuous On Going Information and Data Updates


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#31 Peanut191

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 11:10 PM

Toll,do you agree with Aaron's assessment that the Orange V3 doesn't "feel" counterbalanced?

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#32 TollBros

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 01:19 AM

 Peanut191, on 19 May 2017 - 11:10 PM, said:

Toll,do you agree with Aaron's assessment that the Orange V3 doesn't "feel" counterbalanced?

I love the balance of the shaft and only added 2 grams to the head with it. I really like the feel and wouldn't say it feels overly counter weighted at all.
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#33 Dirtydawg67

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:29 AM

Thanks for doing this. I'm pretty sure you've sold me on a PO as soon as I move the PO V2.

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#34 TollBros

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 10:38 AM

 Dirtydawg67, on 20 May 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

Thanks for doing this. I'm pretty sure you've sold me on a PO as soon as I move the PO V2.

PO is basically for the power guy and V2 is better for the smooth guy. You won't have any trouble finding someone who wants your V2, that's for sure.
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#35 TollBros

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 03:16 PM

FYI I will also add X-Torsion Copperhead to the test as well. I will have those this week.

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#36 J13

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 03:27 PM

Great info as always but why are all your players in a TM M driver and all play a Mitsubishi shaft? I tested almost every driver on trackman outdoors along with a handful of D1 players and half the group got the best numbers from the Epic.  Me personally fit into the Epic from last year's M2 and got another 2-3mph ball speed over 2017 M series.

Edited by J13, 20 May 2017 - 03:48 PM.

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#37 TollBros

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 04:35 PM

 J13, on 20 May 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Great info as always but why are all your players in a TM M driver and all play a Mitsubishi shaft? I tested almost every driver on trackman outdoors along with a handful of D1 players and half the group got the best numbers from the Epic.  Me personally fit into the Epic from last year's M2 and got another 2-3mph ball speed over 2017 M series.

The total group is 45 guys that rotate doing testing and honestly probably 35 of them play M series, and the rest play some sort of Callaway with the exception of 2 who play Cobra. All for no other reason than they are best for each individual player AND, and this is a big factor, that we all play Taylormade Tour issue heads and can choose our specific specs. I think we would see a lot more in Epic series if we could simply choose our specs. Retail variences just don't cut it. Find me a sub zero at 7 degrees of true loft with a red dot sleeve and I may play it.

Edited by TollBros, 20 May 2017 - 04:37 PM.

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#38 JStang

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 05:33 PM

Good to see the train back on the tracks.
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#39 J13

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 05:40 PM

 TollBros, on 20 May 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

 J13, on 20 May 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Great info as always but why are all your players in a TM M driver and all play a Mitsubishi shaft? I tested almost every driver on trackman outdoors along with a handful of D1 players and half the group got the best numbers from the Epic.  Me personally fit into the Epic from last year's M2 and got another 2-3mph ball speed over 2017 M series.

The total group is 45 guys that rotate doing testing and honestly probably 35 of them play M series, and the rest play some sort of Callaway with the exception of 2 who play Cobra. All for no other reason than they are best for each individual player AND, and this is a big factor, that we all play Taylormade Tour issue heads and can choose our specific specs. I think we would see a lot more in Epic series if we could simply choose our specs. Retail variences just don't cut it. Find me a sub zero at 7 degrees of true loft with a red dot sleeve and I may play it.

Callaway Tour stuff is hard to come by and I agree on knowing specs.  I'd like to see Callawaay add spec'd out heads to the Cally Customs program.  The Red Dot sleeves are nice especially for better players, wish they were easier to get as well.
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#40 TollBros

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 05:43 PM

 J13, on 20 May 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 20 May 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

 J13, on 20 May 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Great info as always but why are all your players in a TM M driver and all play a Mitsubishi shaft? I tested almost every driver on trackman outdoors along with a handful of D1 players and half the group got the best numbers from the Epic.  Me personally fit into the Epic from last year's M2 and got another 2-3mph ball speed over 2017 M series.

The total group is 45 guys that rotate doing testing and honestly probably 35 of them play M series, and the rest play some sort of Callaway with the exception of 2 who play Cobra. All for no other reason than they are best for each individual player AND, and this is a big factor, that we all play Taylormade Tour issue heads and can choose our specific specs. I think we would see a lot more in Epic series if we could simply choose our specs. Retail variences just don't cut it. Find me a sub zero at 7 degrees of true loft with a red dot sleeve and I may play it.

Callaway Tour stuff is hard to come by and I agree on knowing specs.  I'd like to see Callawaay add spec'd out heads to the Cally Customs program.  The Red Dot sleeves are nice especially for better players, wish they were easier to get as well.

I really think that's what it comes down to. If we could all choose exact lofts and face angles Callaway would be a more viable option. The ball speeds and technology are there, but I can say for me personally, if I can't get the specs I want, it's not an option. In this day of fitting and dialing in performance​, the fact that this type of option isn't available is ridiculous.

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#41 ruxpin23

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:30 PM

Really appreciate all the effort tollbros.  For guys like me that don't have a nearby fitter that carries all of these, this is a godsend.  I'm currently in a t1100 but am not in love with it.  I'm looking at tensei white or orange (v3) as my next shaft.  Seems like the white is closer to the old ahina profile I like, but the increased ball speeds of the Orange seem to be consistent across a lot of reviews.  To top it off, I did feel like the ahina felt slightly tip heavy.

All that said, in terms of feel, could you describe what the main difference between white and v3 are since you've had a lot of experience testing both?  Do they feel similar with a slight tweak or do they feel worlds apart?
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#42 TollBros

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 11:12 PM

 ruxpin23, on 20 May 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Really appreciate all the effort tollbros.  For guys like me that don't have a nearby fitter that carries all of these, this is a godsend.  I'm currently in a t1100 but am not in love with it.  I'm looking at tensei white or orange (v3) as my next shaft.  Seems like the white is closer to the old ahina profile I like, but the increased ball speeds of the Orange seem to be consistent across a lot of reviews.  To top it off, I did feel like the ahina felt slightly tip heavy.

All that said, in terms of feel, could you describe what the main difference between white and v3 are since you've had a lot of experience testing both?  Do they feel similar with a slight tweak or do they feel worlds apart?

Tense pro white is softer feeling in the handle and is more tip heavy. It also is a bit more harsh feeling in the tip. I think because of the amount of Kevlar and the tungsten resin in the pro orange. The combination absorbs the vibrations through the shaft more fully and makes the pro orange feel smoother.

Edited by TollBros, 20 May 2017 - 11:52 PM.

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#43 campion

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 09:34 AM

Tollbros thanks for the info I'm courious what do you do a living? I'm guessing you own a fitting business? Either way always enjoy your posts and the data in them. Is the orange giving everyone more ball speed.. looking at the data that seems to be the one with the highest ball speed

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#44 TollBros

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 09:49 AM

 campion, on 21 May 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Tollbros thanks for the info I'm courious what do you do a living? I'm guessing you own a fitting business? Either way always enjoy your posts and the data in them. Is the orange giving everyone more ball speed.. looking at the data that seems to be the one with the highest ball speed

Without yet being a board sponsor, I don't want to turn this into an advertisement for the company I work for. The short answer is it's a business that evaluates golf equipment through an independent test panel and provides highly detailed data and feedback. These tests are like a cliff notes version.

As for the oranges, it depends on the player, as to what differences they see. Some things are more pronounced at higher speeds and some things translate through the entire group. I will be updating every other day until the whole picture is clear.
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#45 campion

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 09:57 AM

 TollBros, on 21 May 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

 campion, on 21 May 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Tollbros thanks for the info I'm courious what do you do a living? I'm guessing you own a fitting business? Either way always enjoy your posts and the data in them. Is the orange giving everyone more ball speed.. looking at the data that seems to be the one with the highest ball speed

Without yet being a board sponsor, I don't want to turn this into an advertisement for the company I work for. The short answer is it's a business that evaluates golf equipment through an independent test panel and provides highly detailed data and feedback. These tests are like a cliff notes version.

As for the oranges, it depends on the player, as to what differences they see. Some things are more pronounced at higher speeds and some things translate through the entire group. I will be updating every other day until the whole picture is clear.

Awesome can't wait to read the details


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#46 moonshine

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 10:01 AM

So are the orange versions for instance widely avail or you have to "know" someone to get them?  I assume as a tester your are given to you or you use then and then return for data purposes only?  thanks

I'm a bit curious about ball variances as well.  The ball(s) tested or off the shelf or special versions tour only as well?  thanks..again!
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#47 TollBros

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 12:14 PM

 moonshine, on 21 May 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

So are the orange versions for instance widely avail or you have to "know" someone to get them?  I assume as a tester your are given to you or you use then and then return for data purposes only?  thanks

I'm a bit curious about ball variances as well.  The ball(s) tested or off the shelf or special versions tour only as well?  thanks..again!

Some of the products are retail and some are Tour only at the moment. This test is to test the best of the best on tour and in the market and the products generating the most buzz. As for the balls used in testing, we use off the shelf golf balls that you can buy at any store.
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#48 TollBros

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 04:00 PM

Rickey's 112ss data posted.
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#49 JStang

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 06:43 PM

What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?
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#50 TollBros

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 06:58 PM

 JStang, on 21 May 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?

To be honest I hadn't noticed, but you're right so far. I think it's possible, if you see the shaft we first 3 play, they are much more butt stiff shafts so the feel of the white profile isn't exactly what is ideal. Now saying that, the launch and spin are very good with all 3 data blocks. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, just the feel dynamic coming into play I'd say, where maybe you don't quite release it as efficiently. Every player will have a comfort zone with certain profiles or balance points that can yield marginal differences of maybe 1-2 mph either way.

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#51 Shilgy

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 07:15 PM

 TollBros, on 21 May 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

 campion, on 21 May 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Tollbros thanks for the info I'm courious what do you do a living? I'm guessing you own a fitting business? Either way always enjoy your posts and the data in them. Is the orange giving everyone more ball speed.. looking at the data that seems to be the one with the highest ball speed

Without yet being a board sponsor, I don't want to turn this into an advertisement for the company I work for. The short answer is it's a business that evaluates golf equipment through an independent test panel and provides highly detailed data and feedback. These tests are like a cliff notes version.

As for the oranges, it depends on the player, as to what differences they see. Some things are more pronounced at higher speeds and some things translate through the entire group. I will be updating every other day until the whole picture is clear.
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#52 blev2

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 07:33 PM

Knew I shoulda bought stock in the pro orange...

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#53 TollBros

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 08:30 PM

 Shilgy, on 21 May 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 21 May 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

 campion, on 21 May 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Tollbros thanks for the info I'm courious what do you do a living? I'm guessing you own a fitting business? Either way always enjoy your posts and the data in them. Is the orange giving everyone more ball speed.. looking at the data that seems to be the one with the highest ball speed

Without yet being a board sponsor, I don't want to turn this into an advertisement for the company I work for. The short answer is it's a business that evaluates golf equipment through an independent test panel and provides highly detailed data and feedback. These tests are like a cliff notes version.

As for the oranges, it depends on the player, as to what differences they see. Some things are more pronounced at higher speeds and some things translate through the entire group. I will be updating every other day until the whole picture is clear.
And all this time I thought you were a golf geek that built houses. :)

The Tollbros thing is an inside joke among friends. My last name is Toll. Without going into too much detail, my buddies would tell girls I was the heir to the Toll Brothers empire for wow factor, so basically at this point I just roll with it since there is no fighting it. Haha. But no, I wish, but I have no relation to the high end builder.

Edited by TollBros, 21 May 2017 - 08:31 PM.

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#54 JStang

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 08:47 PM

 TollBros, on 21 May 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

 JStang, on 21 May 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?

To be honest I hadn't noticed, but you're right so far. I think it's possible, if you see the shaft we first 3 play, they are much more butt stiff shafts so the feel of the white profile isn't exactly what is ideal. Now saying that, the launch and spin are very good with all 3 data blocks. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, just the feel dynamic coming into play I'd say, where maybe you don't quite release it as efficiently. Every player will have a comfort zone with certain profiles or balance points that can yield marginal differences of maybe 1-2 mph either way.

Maybe I'm looking at this chart wrong but in order from most to least butt stiff doesn't it go Pro Blue, Pro White, Pro Orange?


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#55 TollBros

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 09:11 PM

 JStang, on 21 May 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 21 May 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

 JStang, on 21 May 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?

To be honest I hadn't noticed, but you're right so far. I think it's possible, if you see the shaft we first 3 play, they are much more butt stiff shafts so the feel of the white profile isn't exactly what is ideal. Now saying that, the launch and spin are very good with all 3 data blocks. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, just the feel dynamic coming into play I'd say, where maybe you don't quite release it as efficiently. Every player will have a comfort zone with certain profiles or balance points that can yield marginal differences of maybe 1-2 mph either way.

Maybe I'm looking at this chart wrong but in order from most to least butt stiff doesn't it go Pro Blue, Pro White, Pro Orange?



The extreme butt is about the same as white for pro orange but the stiffness is more linear. Also the balance of the shaft being higher gives it the feeling of less handle flex. When you swing both, the pro white feels more flexible in the handle. Sometimes focusing on one point of the graph doesn't tell the whole story. No question Pro Orange FEELS less flexible in the handle. This is also the first Tensei with tungsten resin technology so that may have some affect on the feel as well. I always find the graphs interesting when new tech comes along and changes the player's perception during the swing. Very cool how they can manipulate the feel, balance, and load with different materials.

Edited by TollBros, 21 May 2017 - 09:19 PM.

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#56 noodle3872

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 03:28 AM

 TollBros, on 21 May 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

 JStang, on 21 May 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 21 May 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

 JStang, on 21 May 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?

To be honest I hadn't noticed, but you're right so far. I think it's possible, if you see the shaft we first 3 play, they are much more butt stiff shafts so the feel of the white profile isn't exactly what is ideal. Now saying that, the launch and spin are very good with all 3 data blocks. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, just the feel dynamic coming into play I'd say, where maybe you don't quite release it as efficiently. Every player will have a comfort zone with certain profiles or balance points that can yield marginal differences of maybe 1-2 mph either way.

Maybe I'm looking at this chart wrong but in order from most to least butt stiff doesn't it go Pro Blue, Pro White, Pro Orange?


Very cool how they can manipulate the feel, balance, and load with different materials.

And IMHO this is what Mitsubishi does better than any other shaft manufacturing company.

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#57 TollBros

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 08:49 AM

 noodle3872, on 22 May 2017 - 03:28 AM, said:

 TollBros, on 21 May 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

 JStang, on 21 May 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

 TollBros, on 21 May 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

 JStang, on 21 May 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?

To be honest I hadn't noticed, but you're right so far. I think it's possible, if you see the shaft we first 3 play, they are much more butt stiff shafts so the feel of the white profile isn't exactly what is ideal. Now saying that, the launch and spin are very good with all 3 data blocks. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, just the feel dynamic coming into play I'd say, where maybe you don't quite release it as efficiently. Every player will have a comfort zone with certain profiles or balance points that can yield marginal differences of maybe 1-2 mph either way.

Maybe I'm looking at this chart wrong but in order from most to least butt stiff doesn't it go Pro Blue, Pro White, Pro Orange?


Very cool how they can manipulate the feel, balance, and load with different materials.

And IMHO this is what Mitsubishi does better than any other shaft manufacturing company.

I agree 100%.
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#58 manima1

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 02:41 PM

Thanks for bringing this back JT, excited to see the rest of the data.

The PO looks to be turning in a pretty dominant run here.  Only spins a bit more than the KKDC but higher launch angle and ball speeds.  

If I wasn't so happy with the KKDC I would be trying to get my hands on one.  Will be interesting to see what happens with the lower swing speed players - I will be looking at these (2) shafts closely.
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#59 msands12

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 02:56 PM

Thanks TB for all this work and information. Pretty awesome to provide your time and knowledge to the forum. Got a quick question. I currently play a Rogue 125 70TX in my Epic SZ. What shaft(s) on this list would be something I should look into trying if I got the bug to experiment?

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#60 NRJyzr

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 03:00 PM

Completely awesome stuff.  <salute>

Having a stick with the HZRDUS 75, I'm not especially surprised to see the spin numbers being generated.  Tossing another shaft in that clubhead gave me a lower trajectory and, based upon on-course results, lower spin.

Look forward to seeing how the entire project shakes out...

The Ever Changing Bag!

Driver:  R9 SuperDeep, NV ProtoPype 80 X at 43½" --or-- SLDR White, RIP Alpha 80 X at 43.5" --or-- TEE XCG7 Beta, Motore F3 80 X, 43.5" --or-- King LTD, NV ProtoPype 80 X, 43.5"
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2h Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S or DGS400
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