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Probably old news but I find this interesting... Miura doesn't Forge anything!!


65 replies to this topic

#61 Nessism

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 11:35 AM

Mizuno touts their "grain flow forging" which forges the head in one piece.  To make the head this way they have to start out with a longer billet and bend it before forging.  Miura on the other hand can use a smaller piece of material but their build process requires extra mfg steps after the main head body is forged to add the hosel.  I'm not going to speculate which is "better".  Such discussions are sort of like trying to argue who makes a better truck, Ford or Chevy.  If someone had enough time and resources the effect of welding the hosel could be defined but this would require making heads two different ways and who really cares anyway?

The entire golf club industry is shrouded in secrecy and speculation and that's the way the manufacturers want it because it allows them to sell more clubs year over year.  The auto/motorcycle magazines perform instrumented tests of the vehicles but golf clubs are tested subjectively or not at all.  How come Golf Digest and Golf magazine don't have an Iron Byron and perform instrumented tests?  How about a battery of performance tests using different clubs/balls, different swing speeds, strike performance off the heel and toe?  Why not?  I suspect the real reason traces back to the equipment mfrs don't want this info out in the public domain.  The fanboy's heads would explode for another thing.  The losing club/ball mfg's would pull their ads out of the magazines too.  So in the mean time we have all kinds of subjective opinions and speculation.  Just the way the industry wants it.

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#62 Oldplayer

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 03:16 PM

 Bigmean, on 25 July 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

So 2 people with a lot of experience have a differing opinion on something that is scientific (provable). Fair enough I guess, but there should be a correct answer since this is science.
You could ask the black cat :)

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#63 coops

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 10:48 AM

 Nard_S, on 25 July 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

.....
My guess is that spin welding is more about hot rodding a key part of the club than cost savings or feel. It takes the load both......


My guess is that it is is a cost saving measure, with a marketing excuse about being able to pre-drill the hosel more centrally.

Removing the hosel from the forged part makes the shape much more simple - thus makng the forging dies less complex and cheaper to produce. More importanlly, I suspect removing those acute angles around the hosel reduce die wear significantly - meaning the dies last much longer and so making the cost per forged piece lower overall.

Any forged piece is still going to need finishing - grinding off 'flash' and ultimately the finish grinding to the sole etc so the friction welsds can be tidied up then. also.

Back in my 'youth' I did a Mechanical Engineering Degree at Bristol University... and was sponsored through university by Rolls-Royce Plc... (no company car jokes... i've heard them already ;-) ... R-R plc is the aero engine manufacturer.
Anyway, in my 'travels' through various departments and shop floor areas - oh, by the way, 25+ years ago (!) - one process they used was .... tadaaah... friction welding to produce 'blisks'.

A blisk refers to a bladed disk - quick googke got me the surprise that there is a wikipedia page on them
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blisk
Oddly, it's only at near the end under 'Process' that it mentions...
" Research is being conducted to produce them using friction welding of "near net" part shapes that are then machined down to the final blisk shape." - which is pretty d@mn odd when i'd come across it 25 years ago....

Seems like Rolls-Royce have looked to patent laser brazing the blades instead....
http://www.industria...ing-blisks.html

partly because
"Conventional fusion welding, meanwhile, doesn't meet required strength properties to avoid weld-area cracking"


ps they, Rolls-Royce, have for an awful long time used investment casting (lost wax method) to produce turbine blades, which are one of the most highly stressed components in a  jet engine - and the most extreme casting produces single crystal blades ie no 'grain' at all... but hey, ho - I like my forged irons ;-)

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#64 Nard_S

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 11:41 AM

 coops, on 26 July 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

 Nard_S, on 25 July 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

.....
My guess is that spin welding is more about hot rodding a key part of the club than cost savings or feel. It takes the load both......


My guess is that it is is a cost saving measure, with a marketing excuse about being able to pre-drill the hosel more centrally.

Removing the hosel from the forged part makes the shape much more simple - thus makng the forging dies less complex and cheaper to produce. More importanlly, I suspect removing those acute angles around the hosel reduce die wear significantly - meaning the dies last much longer and so making the cost per forged piece lower overall.

Any forged piece is still going to need finishing - grinding off 'flash' and ultimately the finish grinding to the sole etc so the friction welsds can be tidied up then. also.

Back in my 'youth' I did a Mechanical Engineering Degree at Bristol University... and was sponsored through university by Rolls-Royce Plc... (no company car jokes... i've heard them already ;-) ... R-R plc is the aero engine manufacturer.
Anyway, in my 'travels' through various departments and shop floor areas - oh, by the way, 25+ years ago (!) - one process they used was .... tadaaah... friction welding to produce 'blisks'.

A blisk refers to a bladed disk - quick googke got me the surprise that there is a wikipedia page on them
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blisk
Oddly, it's only at near the end under 'Process' that it mentions...
" Research is being conducted to produce them using friction welding of "near net" part shapes that are then machined down to the final blisk shape." - which is pretty d@mn odd when i'd come across it 25 years ago....

Seems like Rolls-Royce have looked to patent laser brazing the blades instead....
http://www.industria...ing-blisks.html

partly because
"Conventional fusion welding, meanwhile, doesn't meet required strength properties to avoid weld-area cracking"


ps they, Rolls-Royce, have for an awful long time used investment casting (lost wax method) to produce turbine blades, which are one of the most highly stressed components in a  jet engine - and the most extreme casting produces single crystal blades ie no 'grain' at all... but hey, ho - I like my forged irons ;-)

Good post.

I personally do not see the cost savings. Here's why. Added operation means added cost and added complications. Yes you save on complexity of die but it is done once and not every time for every head forged specific to that die.

If it was a real savings on cost everybody would have adopted to it decades ago. They have not. Miura is not a value buy, they sell premium made at premium prices which also defies cost thesis.

Cheers.

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#65 Bigmean

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 02:53 PM

Great post coop.  Thanks.

Now I want single crystal irons hahaha

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#66 SwingMan

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 09:41 AM

View Postcoops, on 26 July 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 25 July 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

.....
My guess is that spin welding is more about hot rodding a key part of the club than cost savings or feel. It takes the load both......


My guess is that it is is a cost saving measure, with a marketing excuse about being able to pre-drill the hosel more centrally.



The spin welding, from my random reading of Miura over the last 20 yrs, is to ensure each clubhead is made to exact specifications.

I saw that process on video - basically welded in a robotic friction manner where the 2 parts look as if one - impressive stuff.

Having owned about 4 sets of Miura irons and wedges over time, the feel is dense and more precision-like than other clubs - not soft or hard but dense and solid.

What is Miura known for among clubmakers? Quality of forging and being on spec. It's easier to build a set of irons when each head is to spec.

Edited by SwingMan, 31 July 2017 - 03:49 AM.

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