Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

Probably old news but I find this interesting... Miura doesn't Forge anything!!


65 replies to this topic

#31 Bigmean

Bigmean

    Everything is Relative

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,357 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 344303
  • Joined: 10/12/2014
  • Location:Palm beach county
  • Handicap:JDM
GolfWRX Likes : 5190

Posted 30 June 2017 - 07:05 AM

I am confused.  So are the ninjas on miuras payroll, or are they subcontracted ninjas?  Do Samari pay more in workmans comp than ninjas?  They seem more accident prone.  No matter to me I guess.....  I just want to get out and play this weekend....it is hot as holy F$*k down here this week, unplayable except the first and last 3 hours of the day....needless to say, unlike miuras process, that secret is out and I won't have course to myself at either time....

Edited by Bigmean, 30 June 2017 - 07:06 AM.

Ryoma Maxima 9.5*/Quadra Fire Express
    913F 15*/Tour AD MT7
    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
            Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
            Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#32 Tzoid

Tzoid

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 541 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 5124
  • Joined: 08/14/2005
  • Location:Maryland
  • Handicap:7
  • Ebay ID:twallermizman
GolfWRX Likes : 167

Posted 30 June 2017 - 11:04 AM

This thread picked up some speed all the sudden so I guess it was worthy of the post.  I'm thankful we have so many choices in fine JDM products we can geek out over
and spend our hard earned cash.

     I do see that Miura has moved some of the MG line into the North American market so the lines will soon be blurred between JDM products.  

http://www.miuragolf.com/
Texan raised in Maryland
ONOFF Kuro 4-PW Nippon Pro Modus 3 Tour 120S
Ping G Driver Aldila Rogue Silver 60
Ping Anser 3 & 5 Wood  G25 Hybrid
Scratch 50, 54 & 58 degree wedges
Scotty Cameron & Crown 33" Newport 2

2

#33 Nessism

Nessism

    To measure is to know...

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,166 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 131490
  • Joined: 06/23/2011
  • Location:Torrance, CA
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 6788

Posted 30 June 2017 - 11:20 AM

Miura's do have a unique feel; firmer than most other forged clubs I've hit.  No clue why and don't care to speculate.  Getting back to the raw material arguement, I think the claim that Japanese steel is superior and chinese steel is garbage is ludicrous.  As long as the steel is certified to meet the requirements of ANSI, SAE, whatever, it's the real deal.  The chemical composition of the material is defined in the spec, and either the material meets the spec or it doesn't.
Ping G30 driver w/Adila Rogue Silver 60S
TEE XCG6 3 wood & E8 hybrids
Mizuno Hot Metal irons w/Recoil 95's
Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

3

#34 Tzoid

Tzoid

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 541 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 5124
  • Joined: 08/14/2005
  • Location:Maryland
  • Handicap:7
  • Ebay ID:twallermizman
GolfWRX Likes : 167

Posted 30 June 2017 - 11:59 AM

View PostNessism, on 30 June 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

Miura's do have a unique feel; firmer than most other forged clubs I've hit.  No clue why and don't care to speculate.  Getting back to the raw material arguement, I think the claim that Japanese steel is superior and chinese steel is garbage is ludicrous.  As long as the steel is certified to meet the requirements of ANSI, SAE, whatever, it's the real deal.  The chemical composition of the material is defined in the spec, and either the material meets the spec or it doesn't.

Stop making sense...   :)
Texan raised in Maryland
ONOFF Kuro 4-PW Nippon Pro Modus 3 Tour 120S
Ping G Driver Aldila Rogue Silver 60
Ping Anser 3 & 5 Wood  G25 Hybrid
Scratch 50, 54 & 58 degree wedges
Scotty Cameron & Crown 33" Newport 2

4

#35 theshadow1971

theshadow1971

    Shadow

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 367 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 375724
  • Joined: 05/13/2015
  • Location:Chonburi, Thailand
  • Handicap:14
GolfWRX Likes : 50

Posted 01 July 2017 - 02:15 AM

View PostTzoid, on 30 June 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

This thread picked up some speed all the sudden so I guess it was worthy of the post.  I'm thankful we have so many choices in fine JDM products we can geek out over
and spend our hard earned cash.

I do see that Miura has moved some of the MG line into the North American market so the lines will soon be blurred between JDM products.  

http://www.miuragolf.com/

For me the line would be blurred is when Miura start developing or modifying their product to suit the US or european market,  That is when I would feel their product start stops being Miura and a JDM.  I buy JDM, because 1 I live in Asia, 2, appreciate the quality and the fact the product is JDM, 3. Because Im am Eurasian my physic is suitable for JDM clubs. 4. Their product is different and unique to the region and the country.

I have seen too many brands sell themselves out and lose their luster.  When my father bought a BMW in Australia in the 1980s, BMWs came only from one place Germany, made manufacture assembled in Germany.  Now days BMWs are made all around the world.

Ducatti have an assembly plant near Pattaya in Thailand, the plant produces bikes for the Asian market and with modifications to suit the markets.  question is, am I buying a ducatti as to what I think of ducatti, and italian bike from italy uniquely italian with all its quirks and idiosyncrasies!

My wife who is Thai loves fashion she loves Louis Vuitton products, but would never buy any in Asia.  I asked her why?  She said because their not French?
Her explanation was she viewed what is on offer by LV is slightly adapted to Asian taste, to her that wasn't LV.  An LV product is French, to her the mystique the prestige quality etc was of a french product unique to France, represents french fashion.  She would only buy LV from France.

So I hope some of the JDMs that start selling more in the US and European markets don't adapt their products to suite those markets, because the aura and uniqueness of what they are, being JDM, would to me lose their lustre!

Srixon (asian specs)

Z545 10.5* Driver
Z F45 15* 3W
Z H45 19* 3 Hybrid
Z745 3-PW

Z745 AW@51* & SW@57*

Cleveland Classic HB 2 Black Pearl Putter
Bridgestone B330RXS

5

#36 dmeeksDC

dmeeksDC

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 602 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 431476
  • Joined: 07/04/2016
  • Location:Washington DC
  • Handicap:10
  • Ebay ID:dmeeks2010
GolfWRX Likes : 185

Posted 02 July 2017 - 12:00 PM

This is not "probably old news," it is absolutely non-news.

What matters for Miura is who is overseeing and running the process, not the specific building each step is occurring in. The article is transparent in its alarmist tone, and it is clear the writer has no idea how modern manufacturing works. If Miura is buying billet and the work to produce the irons is occurring in different locations, so what?

What matters is who sets the specs, tolerances and holds all accountable to the propietary processes. What doesn't matter is that some novice in 2010 didn't understand it.
Current lineup:

TM M1 440 Tour Issue, 10-degree, Diamana B Series X,
67g.
Nike Flex 3 wood, Diamana S-70 stiff
Callaway Epic 5W, Hzrdus T800 S, 65g.
Callaway Apex hybrid, 20 degree, Kuro Kage 80HY stiff shaft
Mizuno MP-59, 4-P, PX 5.5
(Coming: Srixon z565 4 iron, z965 5-P, C Taper Lite X.)
Ping Glide 50, 54, CFS wedge shafts
Fourteen RM12 58/12 sand wedge
Edel Rogue putter (thick blade), 34 inch.

6

#37 Nard_S

Nard_S

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,463 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 335269
  • Joined: 08/21/2014
  • Location:Norwalk, CT
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 1211

Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:21 PM

View PostNessism, on 30 June 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

Miura's do have a unique feel; firmer than most other forged clubs I've hit.  No clue why and don't care to speculate.  Getting back to the raw material arguement, I think the claim that Japanese steel is superior and chinese steel is garbage is ludicrous.  As long as the steel is certified to meet the requirements of ANSI, SAE, whatever, it's the real deal.  The chemical composition of the material is defined in the spec, and either the material meets the spec or it doesn't.

I machine tens of thousands of pounds of material annually. Like bread, the baker matters.................a lot.

7

#38 Bigmean

Bigmean

    Everything is Relative

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,357 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 344303
  • Joined: 10/12/2014
  • Location:Palm beach county
  • Handicap:JDM
GolfWRX Likes : 5190

Posted 14 July 2017 - 10:08 AM

I also run and program two large envelope cncs.  Bards baker analogy is spot on.  Now of course anyone can do it, but that said, I would imagine in manufacturing, which is just mass repeat fabrication, the process matters as much as the parts.  Quality parts and quality process = quality product.  Not brain surgery.  The comment above about overseeing is 100% correct and the challenge of growth in industry.
Ryoma Maxima 9.5*/Quadra Fire Express
    913F 15*/Tour AD MT7
    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
            Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
            Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.

8

#39 Nard_S

Nard_S

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,463 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 335269
  • Joined: 08/21/2014
  • Location:Norwalk, CT
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 1211

Posted 14 July 2017 - 10:45 AM

Like the the guy on CNBC says "people, process, product".

Forging is talent specific, more so than casting. Completely possible to farm process to a vendor but  vendor has to abide on a high level.

Boeing divested a lot of their plane making, autos have done it for decades, so it is not a big deal.

There is only several houses that are real good at forging irons and most OEM's contract out to them, though the vogue thing now is cold forging which is a superior on cost and not product.. Miura has a cocktail that they use and I do believe like others have stated the spin welding has much to do with what sets them apart. Weld is stronger than either cast or forged steel.

9

#40 Tzoid

Tzoid

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 541 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 5124
  • Joined: 08/14/2005
  • Location:Maryland
  • Handicap:7
  • Ebay ID:twallermizman
GolfWRX Likes : 167

Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:38 PM

I'm anxious to see where Miura ends up after the acquisition.  

http://www.golf.com/...ribution-rights

Texan raised in Maryland
ONOFF Kuro 4-PW Nippon Pro Modus 3 Tour 120S
Ping G Driver Aldila Rogue Silver 60
Ping Anser 3 & 5 Wood  G25 Hybrid
Scratch 50, 54 & 58 degree wedges
Scotty Cameron & Crown 33" Newport 2

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#41 daryllwin

daryllwin

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 94 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 470334
  • Joined: 06/05/2017
  • Location:Minneapolis
  • Handicap:14
  • Ebay ID:daryllwin
GolfWRX Likes : 21

Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:52 PM

View PostTzoid, on 14 July 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

I'm anxious to see where Miura ends up after the acquisition.  

http://www.golf.com/...ribution-rights

It looks like they're moving away from blades and into a more mass market model from the looks of the new website.

Not sure I'm a fan of this move but that's how it is.
2016 Taylormade M2, Kuro Kage 60 X
PRGR TRX-505 3 and 5 wood with stock shafts
Miura Small Blades, 3-PW, Dynamic Gold X100
54/10 SM5, 56 Perry Gear, 60/04 SM4
Scotty Cameron Circa 62 No.3

11

#42 Nessism

Nessism

    To measure is to know...

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,166 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 131490
  • Joined: 06/23/2011
  • Location:Torrance, CA
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 6788

Posted 14 July 2017 - 02:43 PM

View PostNard_S, on 14 July 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Like the the guy on CNBC says "people, process, product".

Forging is talent specific, more so than casting. Completely possible to farm process to a vendor but  vendor has to abide on a high level.

There is only several houses that are real good at forging irons and most OEM's contract out to them, though the vogue thing now is cold forging which is a superior on cost and not product.. Miura has a cocktail that they use and I do believe like others have stated the spin welding has much to do with what sets them apart. Weld is stronger than either cast or forged steel.

You lost me here.  "Forging is talent specific?"  Don't think so.  The guys that grind the raw forgings have talent, not the guy that presses the button on the forging hammer.  

And a weld is not stronger than the parent material.  At best it's equal.

Muira makes some nice heads.  They have a somewhat unique process in terms of how they go about creating their heads which translates into a specific feel.  It's all good but let's not confuse this with superiority.  To me where they really shine is in the finish they strive to achieve, and with their traditional and conservative designs.  

Oh, and Muira has been moving mass market for many years now.  Anyone wanting a true JDM version head will go for the muira guiken version heads.  I've got a set of mg 9003's and can't sell them.  People prefer the world market version stampings.  That's just the way it is.

Edited by Nessism, 14 July 2017 - 02:44 PM.

Ping G30 driver w/Adila Rogue Silver 60S
TEE XCG6 3 wood & E8 hybrids
Mizuno Hot Metal irons w/Recoil 95's
Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

12

#43 bladehunter

bladehunter

    Cubs win ! Cubs win!

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,130 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 291449
  • Joined: 01/12/2014
  • Location:south carolina
  • Handicap:NONE
GolfWRX Likes : 11403

Posted 15 July 2017 - 10:18 PM

View PostNessism, on 14 July 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 14 July 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Like the the guy on CNBC says "people, process, product".

Forging is talent specific, more so than casting. Completely possible to farm process to a vendor but  vendor has to abide on a high level.

There is only several houses that are real good at forging irons and most OEM's contract out to them, though the vogue thing now is cold forging which is a superior on cost and not product.. Miura has a cocktail that they use and I do believe like others have stated the spin welding has much to do with what sets them apart. Weld is stronger than either cast or forged steel.

You lost me here.  "Forging is talent specific?"  Don't think so.  The guys that grind the raw forgings have talent, not the guy that presses the button on the forging hammer.  

And a weld is not stronger than the parent material.  At best it's equal.

Muira makes some nice heads.  They have a somewhat unique process in terms of how they go about creating their heads which translates into a specific feel.  It's all good but let's not confuse this with superiority.  To me where they really shine is in the finish they strive to achieve, and with their traditional and conservative designs.  

Oh, and Muira has been moving mass market for many years now.  Anyone wanting a true JDM version head will go for the muira guiken version heads.  I've got a set of mg 9003's and can't sell them.  People prefer the world market version stampings.  That's just the way it is.


have to disagree with you on the weld part.... ever try to drill out a spot weld ?   its about 5x as hard as the metal around it.. That plus welders are certified by placing test pieces into hydraulic presses and applying pressure until either the weld breaks or the surrounding metal fatigues... your weld passes if it withstands more pressure than the rest of the part.... ( they also use ultrasound test now adays too) .... so the weld is indeed stronger that the surrounding metal...  not that i think that has anythng to do with making an iron better....
17 M1 440 8.5 ( tour issue head ) Fuji Atmos Black 6X ( limited WRX special addition 16/100)
17 M1 15* (tour issue head)  Graphite Design ADDI 8X  
Titleist Custom Grind 2 iron X100
Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
Vokey sm6 copper 53 Vokey 300 series 59   S400
Cameron Newport Beach CT
B330S

13

#44 Kingcat990

Kingcat990

    European Tailored Golf Socks

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 2,935 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 291815
  • Joined: 01/14/2014
  • Location:Orange County
GolfWRX Likes : 1884

Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:02 PM

In regards to the welding portion, without a doubt, it's not done by hand. I'd be willing to bet that they orbital weld that so there is no mistakes. I'd be also willing to bet that they pickle and passivate the weld.

And bladehunter is right, the weld is significantly stronger than the steel.
Wyoming Cowboys

14

#45 coops

coops

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,065 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 17659
  • Joined: 08/08/2006
  • Location:Bangkok, Thailand
GolfWRX Likes : 221

Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:08 PM

View PostKingcat990, on 16 July 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

In regards to the welding portion, without a doubt, it's not done by hand. I'd be willing to bet that they orbital weld that so there is no mistakes. I'd be also willing to bet that they pickle and passivate the weld.

And bladehunter is right, the weld is significantly stronger than the steel.

They friction weld the hosel to the body ( aka spin welding )


15

#46 Kingcat990

Kingcat990

    European Tailored Golf Socks

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 2,935 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 291815
  • Joined: 01/14/2014
  • Location:Orange County
GolfWRX Likes : 1884

Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:14 PM

Even better
Wyoming Cowboys

16

#47 Nessism

Nessism

    To measure is to know...

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,166 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 131490
  • Joined: 06/23/2011
  • Location:Torrance, CA
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 6788

Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:18 PM

There may be some localized hardening of the metal at the weld but saying the weld is significantly stronger than the parent material is incorrect.
Ping G30 driver w/Adila Rogue Silver 60S
TEE XCG6 3 wood & E8 hybrids
Mizuno Hot Metal irons w/Recoil 95's
Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

17

#48 Nard_S

Nard_S

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,463 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 335269
  • Joined: 08/21/2014
  • Location:Norwalk, CT
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 1211

Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:58 AM

View PostNessism, on 14 July 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 14 July 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Like the the guy on CNBC says "people, process, product".

Forging is talent specific, more so than casting. Completely possible to farm process to a vendor but  vendor has to abide on a high level.

There is only several houses that are real good at forging irons and most OEM's contract out to them, though the vogue thing now is cold forging which is a superior on cost and not product.. Miura has a cocktail that they use and I do believe like others have stated the spin welding has much to do with what sets them apart. Weld is stronger than either cast or forged steel.

You lost me here.  "Forging is talent specific?"  Don't think so.  The guys that grind the raw forgings have talent, not the guy that presses the button on the forging hammer.  

And a weld is not stronger than the parent material.  At best it's equal.

Muira makes some nice heads.  They have a somewhat unique process in terms of how they go about creating their heads which translates into a specific feel.  It's all good but let's not confuse this with superiority.  To me where they really shine is in the finish they strive to achieve, and with their traditional and conservative designs.  

Oh, and Muira has been moving mass market for many years now.  Anyone wanting a true JDM version head will go for the muira guiken version heads.  I've got a set of mg 9003's and can't sell them.  People prefer the world market version stampings.  That's just the way it is.

Weld is far harder than the material it bonds. grab a drill, even a carbide bit, and give it a go.

Forging has more steps than die casting and issues of  temperature control & annealing exist in every one of them. Plus tooling costs are substantially higher. Also base material could be Wonder Bread or Terranova, both would pass ANSI standard but qualitatively end product would suffer with out proper sourcing.

I have 30 + years of machining all types of alloys at aerospace grade level. I'm pretty comfortable with my opinion.

18

#49 benzenbe

benzenbe

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 138 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 402790
  • Joined: 11/12/2015
  • Location:NYC
  • Handicap:12
GolfWRX Likes : 33

Posted 18 July 2017 - 07:41 PM

View PostTzoid, on 14 July 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

I'm anxious to see where Miura ends up after the acquisition.  

http://www.golf.com/...ribution-rights
More old news...  Already some immediate changes just by going on the website; the Tournament and Baby Blades are no long officially listed products, the Miura Giken product line is available in the US, and Miura is starting to introduce a lot of multi-material clubs, contrary to their one-piece forged offerings

It's clearly they brand is very torn between staying true to its roots and exclusively appealing to the better player who's willing to spend top dollar, to people of all skills levels who are willings to part with just over $2k for a set of irons.
Custom Fit by True Spec Golf (NYC):
Callaway Epic Sub Zero (9.5*) with UST Elements Platinum
TM M2 3HL (16.5*) with Graphite Design Tour AD Fairway

TM M2 5W (18*) with Graphite Design Tour AD Fairway
Srixon Z765 (4-GW) with KBS C-Taper

Titleist Vokey SM6 (56* and 60*) with KBS 610

Off-the-Shelf:
Scotty Futura X5

19

#50 bladehunter

bladehunter

    Cubs win ! Cubs win!

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,130 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 291449
  • Joined: 01/12/2014
  • Location:south carolina
  • Handicap:NONE
GolfWRX Likes : 11403

Posted 19 July 2017 - 06:27 AM

View PostNard_S, on 18 July 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

View PostNessism, on 14 July 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 14 July 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Like the the guy on CNBC says "people, process, product".

Forging is talent specific, more so than casting. Completely possible to farm process to a vendor but  vendor has to abide on a high level.

There is only several houses that are real good at forging irons and most OEM's contract out to them, though the vogue thing now is cold forging which is a superior on cost and not product.. Miura has a cocktail that they use and I do believe like others have stated the spin welding has much to do with what sets them apart. Weld is stronger than either cast or forged steel.

You lost me here.  "Forging is talent specific?"  Don't think so.  The guys that grind the raw forgings have talent, not the guy that presses the button on the forging hammer.  

And a weld is not stronger than the parent material.  At best it's equal.

Muira makes some nice heads.  They have a somewhat unique process in terms of how they go about creating their heads which translates into a specific feel.  It's all good but let's not confuse this with superiority.  To me where they really shine is in the finish they strive to achieve, and with their traditional and conservative designs.  

Oh, and Muira has been moving mass market for many years now.  Anyone wanting a true JDM version head will go for the muira guiken version heads.  I've got a set of mg 9003's and can't sell them.  People prefer the world market version stampings.  That's just the way it is.

Weld is far harder than the material it bonds. grab a drill, even a carbide bit, and give it a go.

Forging has more steps than die casting and issues of  temperature control & annealing exist in every one of them. Plus tooling costs are substantially higher. Also base material could be Wonder Bread or Terranova, both would pass ANSI standard but qualitatively end product would suffer with out proper sourcing.

I have 30 + years of machining all types of alloys at aerospace grade level. I'm pretty comfortable with my opinion.

absolutely....  would only take 3 minutes with a new Carbide bit to see for themselves...  its a night and day difference...heres a pretty quick search that yielded some Yahoo answers that pretty basically explain what when how and why ...  

https://uk.answers.y...18083040AACMM3Z

Edited by bladehunter, 19 July 2017 - 06:50 AM.

17 M1 440 8.5 ( tour issue head ) Fuji Atmos Black 6X ( limited WRX special addition 16/100)
17 M1 15* (tour issue head)  Graphite Design ADDI 8X  
Titleist Custom Grind 2 iron X100
Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
Vokey sm6 copper 53 Vokey 300 series 59   S400
Cameron Newport Beach CT
B330S

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#51 Nessism

Nessism

    To measure is to know...

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,166 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 131490
  • Joined: 06/23/2011
  • Location:Torrance, CA
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 6788

Posted 21 July 2017 - 05:41 PM

View PostNard_S, on 18 July 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

Weld is far harder than the material it bonds. grab a drill, even a carbide bit, and give it a go.

Forging has more steps than die casting and issues of  temperature control & annealing exist in every one of them. Plus tooling costs are substantially higher. Also base material could be Wonder Bread or Terranova, both would pass ANSI standard but qualitatively end product would suffer with out proper sourcing.


Yes, a weld is harder...and more brittle than the parent material.  Heat a chunk of metal red hot and dunk it in water and it will get super hard, but brittle has heck as well.  Harder metal is stronger metal for the most part, but that doesn't tell the whole story.  The question of welding the hosel and whether it's better or worse than a one piece head is one of those silly discussions that's basically meaningless anyway.  Personally, I'd trust a once piece hosel to not break when bending more so than a welded hosel though, but the entire discussion is just a hair splitting exercise.  

This comment about "proper sourcing" makes no sense either.  Either the steel meets the spec or it doesn't.  Period.  There is no in between.  It's ridiculous to try to judge different materials that all meet the spec and try to call one better or worse than another.  Plus, iron heads are made out of cheap carbon steel, not any kind of super steel.  This discussion is like trying to compare Mobile gasoline against Chevron.  Yes, slight differences, but meaningless.  Put another way, order up some certified 6061 T6 aluminum and you can build aircraft parts with it that will fly in the sky and carry people all over the world.  There is no such thing as "better" 6061.  As long as the material meets the spec and you get a proper cert then the material can be used in the aerospace industry.  It's laughable that people making golf clubs try to split hairs about what's the better cheap carbon steel product.

Edited by Nessism, 21 July 2017 - 05:42 PM.

Ping G30 driver w/Adila Rogue Silver 60S
TEE XCG6 3 wood & E8 hybrids
Mizuno Hot Metal irons w/Recoil 95's
Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

21

#52 Bigmean

Bigmean

    Everything is Relative

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,357 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 344303
  • Joined: 10/12/2014
  • Location:Palm beach county
  • Handicap:JDM
GolfWRX Likes : 5190

Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:03 PM

Someone chimed in with 30+ years experience machining alloys at aerospace grade/spec, why is there still an argument happening?   I know everyone on internet is an expert in whatever subject they are talking about but why can't you take the poster with metal experience at face value?  Saying that you "personally would trust one piece over welded for not breaking when bending" is adding a lot considering people in the metal industry chiming have said otherwise and in fact pointed out that manual welding certifications are based on the opposite.  If the goal is a productive conversation, I think we can all only expand our own education by learning from people who know more than us and being open to change our own opinions as we meet people in life with experiences we don't have the time or opportunity to learn and prove for ourselves.  The entire education system is based on this premise, if it works for the advancement of mankind, it should work in a discussion about making golf clubs.
Ryoma Maxima 9.5*/Quadra Fire Express
    913F 15*/Tour AD MT7
    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
            Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
            Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.

22

#53 Matt J

Matt J

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,696 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 339857
  • Joined: 09/17/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 10887

Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:25 PM

Miura is dead.  Pure and simple.

They were a distinct family run operation, until they sold out.

My guess is they won't be around long looking at the product line changes.

23

#54 Nessism

Nessism

    To measure is to know...

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,166 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 131490
  • Joined: 06/23/2011
  • Location:Torrance, CA
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 6788

Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:31 PM

View PostBigmean, on 21 July 2017 - 08:03 PM, said:

Someone chimed in with 30+ years experience machining alloys at aerospace grade/spec, why is there still an argument happening?  

Maybe because I'm a mechanical engineer that has MORE than 30 years experience as a Quality Manager and quality engineer, not to mention extensive experience in machine shops.  Further, I've been involved in countless quality problem investigations where WELDS FAILED.  Can you imagine a situation where there are thousands and thousands of cars driving down the road with weakened or failed welds and your job is to figure out how much technical risk there is to the users?  In my current job as Manufacturing Engineering manager for an aerospace supplier we had a problem where one of our suppliers electron beam welds some thin wall tubes together and there was tons of microcracking in the welds and crack propagation due to inclusion corrosion.  There is a hell of a lot more to understanding metals and welding than comes from working as a machinist.

Back to welding...  Any time two parts are joined there will be what's known as the "heat affected zone" directly adjacent to the weld where the parent material strength is reduced due to annealing.  A welded part is almost never as strong as a one piece part due to this unless subsequent heat treatment operations are added to erase the heat induced grain structure changes in the metal.  All this is moot in terms of a golf club head though because there is plenty of material to assure adequate strength, and thus this discussion is almost totally irreverent.

Edited by Nessism, 21 July 2017 - 08:54 PM.

Ping G30 driver w/Adila Rogue Silver 60S
TEE XCG6 3 wood & E8 hybrids
Mizuno Hot Metal irons w/Recoil 95's
Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

24

#55 bladehunter

bladehunter

    Cubs win ! Cubs win!

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,130 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 291449
  • Joined: 01/12/2014
  • Location:south carolina
  • Handicap:NONE
GolfWRX Likes : 11403

Posted 22 July 2017 - 01:19 PM

View PostNessism, on 21 July 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

View PostBigmean, on 21 July 2017 - 08:03 PM, said:

Someone chimed in with 30+ years experience machining alloys at aerospace grade/spec, why is there still an argument happening?  

Maybe because I'm a mechanical engineer that has MORE than 30 years experience as a Quality Manager and quality engineer, not to mention extensive experience in machine shops.  Further, I've been involved in countless quality problem investigations where WELDS FAILED.  Can you imagine a situation where there are thousands and thousands of cars driving down the road with weakened or failed welds and your job is to figure out how much technical risk there is to the users?  In my current job as Manufacturing Engineering manager for an aerospace supplier we had a problem where one of our suppliers electron beam welds some thin wall tubes together and there was tons of microcracking in the welds and crack propagation due to inclusion corrosion.  There is a hell of a lot more to understanding metals and welding than comes from working as a machinist.

Back to welding...  Any time two parts are joined there will be what's known as the "heat affected zone" directly adjacent to the weld where the parent material strength is reduced due to annealing.  A welded part is almost never as strong as a one piece part due to this unless subsequent heat treatment operations are added to erase the heat induced grain structure changes in the metal.  All this is moot in terms of a golf club head though because there is plenty of material to assure adequate strength, and thus this discussion is almost totally irreverent.



what type one piece part are we talking?  a casting ?  or a billet milled into the part ?    OF course the paper tiger argument is that a single billet cut into the shape IS stronger.... NO crap.... BUT thats a farse as it is never ever cost effective to do so in a mass production setting... so yes in your perfect world scenario you are correct.. But back in the real world of metal Fab where frame rails are made of multiple stamped parts and not whittled from one solid 10 foot billet ( my god would that be ignorant to do) .... now that that is clear, back to the actual point

when a proper weld that hasnt been contaminated ( usually by a robot that isnt working correctly) is in place the part will almost never fail in the " weld zone" as you have suggested.... it wil always break away from that area...why?  because the area is where it will bend... and then eventually will break.. if a weld is heated to the point of actually making a joint brittle its because of two things.. either the parent metals are too thin for the application or soemone is using too much heat ....  there is always a sweet spot for heat /speed /and filler material.... when you find it the welds and the surrounding areas will be stronger than the other parts... assiming proper gussets and actual design of the part... surely you dont think anyone is talking about butt welding alone etc?   Im not trying to play down being an engineer in a inspectors position,  But unless youve spent years behind the gun as i have and actually design suspension / rollcage systems you just dont know .  Comparing todays cost cutting robotic welding programs to a quality chassis shops work is like comparing Mcdonalds to a mid town manhatan restaurants hamburger....  just not a comparison..   I gaurantee you if you take a miura iron and bend it til it fails in the loft lie machine it will break far down into the neck or not at all...  my bet is you cant break it without a cheater bar in a loft lie machine... and that isnt true of alot of irons and wedges...   and if it cant be broken there...what are we talking about ?

17 M1 440 8.5 ( tour issue head ) Fuji Atmos Black 6X ( limited WRX special addition 16/100)
17 M1 15* (tour issue head)  Graphite Design ADDI 8X  
Titleist Custom Grind 2 iron X100
Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
Vokey sm6 copper 53 Vokey 300 series 59   S400
Cameron Newport Beach CT
B330S

25

#56 Nessism

Nessism

    To measure is to know...

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,166 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 131490
  • Joined: 06/23/2011
  • Location:Torrance, CA
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 6788

Posted 22 July 2017 - 02:07 PM

This discussion is moot.  Miura makes nice heads.  Their spin welding process for attaching the hosel is perfectly acceptable.  It's not a superior process and it doesn't create a "better" head, rather it's adequate and I suspect it saves them money.  Nothing wrong with that.  Welding is NOT stronger than a one piece head, and to argue that is silly.  Let it go.

Edited by Nessism, 25 July 2017 - 11:05 AM.

Ping G30 driver w/Adila Rogue Silver 60S
TEE XCG6 3 wood & E8 hybrids
Mizuno Hot Metal irons w/Recoil 95's
Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

26

#57 Nard_S

Nard_S

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,463 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 335269
  • Joined: 08/21/2014
  • Location:Norwalk, CT
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 1211

Posted 22 July 2017 - 03:58 PM

View PostNessism, on 22 July 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

This discussion is moot.  Miura makes nice heads.  Their spin welding process for attaching the hosel is perfectly acceptable.  It' not a superior process and it doesn't create a "better" head, rather it's adequate and I suspect it saves them money.  Nothing wrong with that.  Welding is NOT stronger than a one piece head, and to argue that is silly.  Let it go.

I never suggested spin welding is superior, I suggested that it is part of what gives Miura heads their own distinct feel. A feel that is not replicated by other club makers. They do not spot weld a hosel on.The hosel; is formed using molten weld while spinning the head at high rpm.  There's no doubt the Rc (hardness) value of the hosel is much higher than the rest of the head. So your left with a softly forged head for impact attached to a robust hosel, (probably stronger than a cast die or one piece forged) to transmit the energy of the shaft. Quite ingenious and makes a lot sense from a performance perspective.

27

#58 Nessism

Nessism

    To measure is to know...

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,166 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 131490
  • Joined: 06/23/2011
  • Location:Torrance, CA
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 6788

Posted 22 July 2017 - 04:13 PM

View PostNard_S, on 22 July 2017 - 03:58 PM, said:

View PostNessism, on 22 July 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

This discussion is moot.  Miura makes nice heads.  Their spin welding process for attaching the hosel is perfectly acceptable.  It' not a superior process and it doesn't create a "better" head, rather it's adequate and I suspect it saves them money.  Nothing wrong with that.  Welding is NOT stronger than a one piece head, and to argue that is silly.  Let it go.

I never suggested spin welding is superior, I suggested that it is part of what gives Miura heads their own distinct feel. A feel that is not replicated by other club makers. They do not spot weld a hosel on.The hosel; is formed using molten weld while spinning the head at high rpm.  There's no doubt the Rc (hardness) value of the hosel is much higher than the rest of the head. So your left with a softly forged head for impact attached to a robust hosel, (probably stronger than a cast die or one piece forged) to transmit the energy of the shaft. Quite ingenious and makes a lot sense from a performance perspective.

Your post was good right up until the last sentence; the welded hosel has nothing to do with performance.  It's strictly a processing choice Miura made.  I won't speculate if it impacts feel but maybe.  Something makes Miura irons feel different and the welded hosel is one of their prominent features.
Ping G30 driver w/Adila Rogue Silver 60S
TEE XCG6 3 wood & E8 hybrids
Mizuno Hot Metal irons w/Recoil 95's
Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

28

#59 Bigmean

Bigmean

    Everything is Relative

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,357 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 344303
  • Joined: 10/12/2014
  • Location:Palm beach county
  • Handicap:JDM
GolfWRX Likes : 5190

Posted 25 July 2017 - 09:53 AM

So 2 people with a lot of experience have a differing opinion on something that is scientific (provable).  Fair enough I guess, but there should be a correct answer since this is science.


Ok, so Wouldn't the hosel effect how vibration is transferred, hence feel?  

Or, say you have same head and an aluminum, titaimaim, steel, whatever hosel attached, would they feel different at impact?  Now Wouldn't the same metal but attached in different ways also feel different?  All because it is altering the transfer of vibrations?

I am asking those who know more, not saying this is the case, but just me thinking.
Ryoma Maxima 9.5*/Quadra Fire Express
    913F 15*/Tour AD MT7
    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
            Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
            Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.

29

#60 Nard_S

Nard_S

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,463 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 335269
  • Joined: 08/21/2014
  • Location:Norwalk, CT
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 1211

Posted 25 July 2017 - 10:26 AM

View PostBigmean, on 25 July 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

So 2 people with a lot of experience have a differing opinion on something that is scientific (provable).  Fair enough I guess, but there should be a correct answer since this is science.


Ok, so Wouldn't the hosel effect how vibration is transferred, hence feel?  

Or, say you have same head and an aluminum, titaimaim, steel, whatever hosel attached, would they feel different at impact?  Now Wouldn't the same metal but attached in different ways also feel different?  All because it is altering the transfer of vibrations?

I am asking those who know more, not saying this is the case, but just me thinking.

Why do hickory drum shells sound different than maple? The answer is as complex and simple as the one to yours. Density plays a role, grain plays a role but in the end they vibrate differently so resonant frequency is different. I imagine to some limited extent the same is true for golf clubs.

My guess is that spin welding is more about hot rodding a key part of the club than cost savings or feel. It takes the load both ways, delivering force and reacting to the impact. Added stability seemed to be the goal. Whether it is substantial or worth the effort is mute. Kind of like Honda putting a double wishbone suspension all around on the 92-95 Civics. Completely over kill but really does add to the appeal & experience of owning them. Miura owners worship their clubs, much in the way Si owners worship their econo boxes. I've owned 4 bubble backs and have a super charger waiting for the 5th. :)


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors