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Probably old news but I find this interesting... Miura doesn't Forge anything!!


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#1 Tzoid

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 10:11 AM

I was doing a search on who forges Irons and found this.  I imagine Chris at TSG is the author but it makes me think twice
when I see someone saying " Miura forgings are superior"  I wonder who forges them for Miura?  Thoughts?

http://blog.tourspec...cturing-part-1/


This makes it confusing and somebody is bullshitting the public

https://www.youtube....h?v=Khh0g91P2S8

Edited by Tzoid, 14 May 2017 - 10:16 AM.

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#2 95124hacker

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 04:50 PM

View PostTzoid, on 14 May 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

I was doing a search on who forges Irons and found this.  I imagine Chris at TSG is the author but it makes me think twice
when I see someone saying " Miura forgings are superior"  I wonder who forges them for Miura?  Thoughts?

http://blog.tourspec...cturing-part-1/


This makes it confusing and somebody is bullshitting the public

https://www.youtube....h?v=Khh0g91P2S8

Yeah who knows??  If you scroll through the comments on the TSG article, the president of Miura Golf USA Adam Barr says the opposite. Case of he said, she said.

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#3 dan360

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 05:02 PM

People who know anything at all about the steel industry know most of what you hear in golf advertisement regarding the "metal" is fluff.  

GSS, 1018, grain flow, blah blah blah.

Basic metallurgy courses are kryponite to golf marketing.

The Japanese market is full of more legends than all of Greek Mythology and every Hall of Fame in the history of ever.  

Most of it is purely fluff.  All hat no cattle.

Edited by dan360, 14 May 2017 - 05:05 PM.

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#4 Tzoid

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 06:22 AM

View Post95124hacker, on 14 May 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

View PostTzoid, on 14 May 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

I was doing a search on who forges Irons and found this.  I imagine Chris at TSG is the author but it makes me think twice
when I see someone saying " Miura forgings are superior"  I wonder who forges them for Miura?  Thoughts?

http://blog.tourspec...cturing-part-1/


This makes it confusing and somebody is bullshitting the public

https://www.youtube....h?v=Khh0g91P2S8

Yeah who knows??  If you scroll through the comments on the TSG article, the president of Miura Golf USA Adam Barr says the opposite. Case of he said, she said.

I would think that TSG would be liable for slander or something for making such a claim unless there is some truth to it.
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#5 ksgolfguy007

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 08:01 AM

Tzoid who cares we play Onoff Kuro

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#6 Tcann32

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.
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#7 Tzoid

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

Edited by Tzoid, 15 May 2017 - 12:06 PM.

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#8 FLOGMR

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 02:16 PM

That TSG articled is "Really Old sh*t and was published after TSG lost a pissing match with Miura Giken....all Miura forged heads are forged at  Miura "In house"....go visit the factory and put your mind at ease....they are more than happy to give a tour if you contact them in advance.
Just another BS article....and it is really old stuff......... Adam has not been the president of Miura for years.

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#9 Tcann32

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 02:25 PM

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

I'm always open to discussion! Sorry if my post was condescending in undertone, as that wasn't the intent.

Miuras are different than anything else I've hit, by a long shot. They aren't super soft, but certainly not hard either. As mentioned before, carbon is an impurity in steel, and Miura's forging eliminates carbon content vs re-arranging it. It leaves you with something that doesn't feel marshmallow soft like most expect, but the feel is incredible, none the less.

To the very, very best of my knowledge, Miura does forge their iron heads in-house. It's hard to believe they don't when they spin weld the hosels and press the grooves as well.

I had heard about the Scratch forging some time ago. I have 1018 wedges and love them and it doesn't surprise me to hear that the metal might be weaker than industry standards because those wedges are soooo soft. I love it in a wedge, but they won't last more than a season or two, and I live in MN, where we only play 1/2 seasons! Lol
What's actually in the bag...
Callaway Epic SZ-9.0-Aldila X-Torsion Green Mamba-70TX
Callaway Epic SZ 15* - PX Handcrafted Yellow 75 6.5
Callaway Apex UT 21* - PX 6.5
Miura LH LTD Black Blades: 3-p w/ DG TI X7's.
Cleveland RTX 3: 50-54 w. C-Taper S+
Scratch 1018: 58 w/ C-Taper S+
Piretti Potenza

Infrequently rotated in:
816 DBD, 2014 BBA, Nike Vapor Fly Pro
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Miura LH CB's, Callaway 2013 X forged, Callaway apex pro's
Scratch 1018: 58,59,51,55, Cleveland RTX 3 58.
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#10 Tzoid

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 05:00 PM

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

I'm always open to discussion! Sorry if my post was condescending in undertone, as that wasn't the intent.

Miuras are different than anything else I've hit, by a long shot. They aren't super soft, but certainly not hard either. As mentioned before, carbon is an impurity in steel, and Miura's forging eliminates carbon content vs re-arranging it. It leaves you with something that doesn't feel marshmallow soft like most expect, but the feel is incredible, none the less.

To the very, very best of my knowledge, Miura does forge their iron heads in-house. It's hard to believe they don't when they spin weld the hosels and press the grooves as well.

I had heard about the Scratch forging some time ago. I have 1018 wedges and love them and it doesn't surprise me to hear that the metal might be weaker than industry standards because those wedges are soooo soft. I love it in a wedge, but they won't last more than a season or two, and I live in MN, where we only play 1/2 seasons! Lol


I have hit and owned Miura Irons for short periods of time and they are definitely solid but I prefer the feel of the OnOff - Endo forgings. I also play Scratch wedges :)

            I know that article I linked is old but found it interesting that it even exists.

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#11 FLOGMR

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 06:27 PM

It's the internet where you can post any nonsense you feel like....that is what TSG did years ago and there is always someone who buys into it.

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#12 Tzoid

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 10:37 PM

View PostFLOGMR, on 15 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

It's the internet where you can post any nonsense you feel like....that is what TSG did years ago and there is always someone who buys into it.

I guess Miura isn't holding a grudge over it since TSG sell Miura Giken
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#13 MJisGOAT

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 10:02 PM

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 10:37 PM, said:

View PostFLOGMR, on 15 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

It's the internet where you can post any nonsense you feel like....that is what TSG did years ago and there is always someone who buys into it.

I guess Miura isn't holding a grudge over it since TSG sell Miura Giken

Prime example of business is still business!

Edited by MJisGOAT, Yesterday, 09:15 AM.

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#14 skraly

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Posted Yesterday, 12:23 AM

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

I'm always open to discussion! Sorry if my post was condescending in undertone, as that wasn't the intent.

Miuras are different than anything else I've hit, by a long shot. They aren't super soft, but certainly not hard either. As mentioned before, carbon is an impurity in steel, and Miura's forging eliminates carbon content vs re-arranging it. It leaves you with something that doesn't feel marshmallow soft like most expect, but the feel is incredible, none the less.

To the very, very best of my knowledge, Miura does forge their iron heads in-house. It's hard to believe they don't when they spin weld the hosels and press the grooves as well.

I had heard about the Scratch forging some time ago. I have 1018 wedges and love them and it doesn't surprise me to hear that the metal might be weaker than industry standards because those wedges are soooo soft. I love it in a wedge, but they won't last more than a season or two, and I live in MN, where we only play 1/2 seasons! Lol
Carbon in steel is not an impurity.  It is what makes iron into steel.  You can add other alloying agents to change strength, malleability and so forth but without carbon it's just iron.  So when you say that Miura "eliminates carbon content", that's just wrong.

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#15 Bigmean

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Posted Yesterday, 07:04 AM

Not sure if any of this helps:

https://search.yahoo...c=yfp-hrtab-900


http://www.golftoday...ng_process.html

The second is non video and looks to be done from a live visit as well. It shows the carbon alignment and forging process.
It also states 2 things.  Miura is supplied billet, and the "1 tonne air hammer" is in a location 1KM from main factory.  I believe the fourth striking forge is at the main factory?  Hard to gather.  It doesn't state weather or not Miura owns the press, it is implied that they do, just that they have it in another warehouse location.  Separate location for that kind of thing is not really uncommon for businesses do to growth, process being heavy or light, and available real estate not being there to just add on at either location.  That said, could easily be subbed out.  As a subcontractor I can tell you who cares.  My builders have phenomenal names and reputation and they use phenomenal subs that deliver a quality product to their specifications etc.  The clubs are literally no worse or better if they work with a foundry exclusively to develop their special sauce, or if they have their own press,  the sauce is no more or less special because of who pays overhead and taxes on what parts of its creation.

That all said, tsg is beyond a suspect aource, check the itabori thread amongst others.  If Miura is buying the raw billet as they did say, and the press is in an isolated location super close, as they did say, it seems just as logical or more logical Miura owns the press and owns/leases the second location.  I think people that don't have businesses or understand how things come to market and are used to "brand image" and "brand sales" get caught up in thinking the brand is more than it is.  Frankly, maybe Miura forgings are better because an experienced foundry is handling it instead of them.....maybe they are better because they do it in house, does it really matter past the finished product how it got there?

Edited by Bigmean, Yesterday, 07:06 AM.

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#16 LionGolfer

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Posted Yesterday, 07:09 AM

View PostFLOGMR, on 15 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

It's the internet where you can post any nonsense you feel like....that is what TSG did years ago and there is always someone who buys into it.

Too many unfortunately.
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#17 Llortamaisey

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Posted Yesterday, 07:19 AM

Miura doesn't supply their own billet? Oh geez, next you're going to tell me that supplier casts it into a billet and not forges it into a billet.

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#18 theshadow1971

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Posted Yesterday, 07:23 AM

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

I'm always open to discussion! Sorry if my post was condescending in undertone, as that wasn't the intent.

Miuras are different than anything else I've hit, by a long shot. They aren't super soft, but certainly not hard either. As mentioned before, carbon is an impurity in steel, and Miura's forging eliminates carbon content vs re-arranging it. It leaves you with something that doesn't feel marshmallow soft like most expect, but the feel is incredible, none the less.

To the very, very best of my knowledge, Miura does forge their iron heads in-house. It's hard to believe they don't when they spin weld the hosels and press the grooves as well.

I had heard about the Scratch forging some time ago. I have 1018 wedges and love them and it doesn't surprise me to hear that the metal might be weaker than industry standards because those wedges are soooo soft. I love it in a wedge, but they won't last more than a season or two, and I live in MN, where we only play 1/2 seasons! Lol


I have hit and owned Miura Irons for short periods of time and they are definitely solid but I prefer the feel of the OnOff - Endo forgings. I also play Scratch wedges :)

I know that article I linked is old but found it interesting that it even exists.

Is the Endo forging for OnOff done in Japan or Thailand?
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#19 theshadow1971

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Posted Yesterday, 07:37 AM

View PostLlortamaisey, on 25 June 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

Miura doesn't supply their own billet? Oh geez, next you're going to tell me that supplier casts it into a billet and not forges it into a billet.

I think a billet is a cast?
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#20 widow-maker

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Posted Yesterday, 11:02 AM

View PostBigmean, on 25 June 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

Not sure if any of this helps:

https://search.yahoo...c=yfp-hrtab-900


http://www.golftoday...ng_process.html

The second is non video and looks to be done from a live visit as well. It shows the carbon alignment and forging process.
It also states 2 things.  Miura is supplied billet, and the "1 tonne air hammer" is in a location 1KM from main factory.  I believe the fourth striking forge is at the main factory?  Hard to gather.  It doesn't state weather or not Miura owns the press, it is implied that they do, just that they have it in another warehouse location.  Separate location for that kind of thing is not really uncommon for businesses do to growth, process being heavy or light, and available real estate not being there to just add on at either location.  That said, could easily be subbed out.  As a subcontractor I can tell you who cares.  My builders have phenomenal names and reputation and they use phenomenal subs that deliver a quality product to their specifications etc.  The clubs are literally no worse or better if they work with a foundry exclusively to develop their special sauce, or if they have their own press,  the sauce is no more or less special because of who pays overhead and taxes on what parts of its creation.

That all said, tsg is beyond a suspect aource, check the itabori thread amongst others.  If Miura is buying the raw billet as they did say, and the press is in an isolated location super close, as they did say, it seems just as logical or more logical Miura owns the press and owns/leases the second location.  I think people that don't have businesses or understand how things come to market and are used to "brand image" and "brand sales" get caught up in thinking the brand is more than it is.  Frankly, maybe Miura forgings are better because an experienced foundry is handling it instead of them.....maybe they are better because they do it in house, does it really matter past the finished product how it got there?
It doesn't surprise me that the original forgings are done in a different building, whether he owns it, leases space, or contracts it out.  Who wants their employees that do the sanding and finishing working in an environment where a forging press is banging every 15-30 seconds?  Heck, he and his sons do a lot of the finishing work themselves... why would they put themselves in an environment where forging presses are banging.  It only makes sense that the two operations are separate.  Whatever and however they're doing it... it's working rather well.  I'm sure that other companies keep their forging building separate from their finishing operations.  This seems more an argument about semantics rather than club quality.


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#21 Tcann32

Tcann32

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Posted Today, 11:19 AM

View Postskraly, on 25 June 2017 - 12:23 AM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

I'm always open to discussion! Sorry if my post was condescending in undertone, as that wasn't the intent.

Miuras are different than anything else I've hit, by a long shot. They aren't super soft, but certainly not hard either. As mentioned before, carbon is an impurity in steel, and Miura's forging eliminates carbon content vs re-arranging it. It leaves you with something that doesn't feel marshmallow soft like most expect, but the feel is incredible, none the less.

To the very, very best of my knowledge, Miura does forge their iron heads in-house. It's hard to believe they don't when they spin weld the hosels and press the grooves as well.

I had heard about the Scratch forging some time ago. I have 1018 wedges and love them and it doesn't surprise me to hear that the metal might be weaker than industry standards because those wedges are soooo soft. I love it in a wedge, but they won't last more than a season or two, and I live in MN, where we only play 1/2 seasons! Lol
Carbon in steel is not an impurity.  It is what makes iron into steel.  You can add other alloying agents to change strength, malleability and so forth but without carbon it's just iron.  So when you say that Miura "eliminates carbon content", that's just wrong.

It'd be nearly impossible to forge all carbon out of the steel, but Miura forgings eliminate as much of it as possible. Carbon is an impurity in steel. A higher carbon content equates to more voids and pockets in the steel itself. Maybe you're a metallurgist, idk, but for the sake of this conversation and anyone else reading, carbon in steel is similar to a sponge. The carbon is the holes in the sponge, and forging presses the sponge (steel), eliminating the holes (carbon voids). This is what I had learned from my father, who does happen to be an expert in metals.

It's also pretty well correlated with Miura's description of their forging process as seen below. If this description is still in fact wrong, then I'd say you have something to teach me, my old man, and Miura himself.

forging.JPG


As you can see, they're eliminating a large portion of the carbon within the metal, and the grain structure becomes much tighter. Softer irons feel softer because the carbon voids are much larger.

Edited by Tcann32, Today, 11:23 AM.

What's actually in the bag...
Callaway Epic SZ-9.0-Aldila X-Torsion Green Mamba-70TX
Callaway Epic SZ 15* - PX Handcrafted Yellow 75 6.5
Callaway Apex UT 21* - PX 6.5
Miura LH LTD Black Blades: 3-p w/ DG TI X7's.
Cleveland RTX 3: 50-54 w. C-Taper S+
Scratch 1018: 58 w/ C-Taper S+
Piretti Potenza

Infrequently rotated in:
816 DBD, 2014 BBA, Nike Vapor Fly Pro
Nike Vapor Flex 3&5
Miura LH CB's, Callaway 2013 X forged, Callaway apex pro's
Scratch 1018: 58,59,51,55, Cleveland RTX 3 58.
Odyssey PT#2, Wilson Staff milled Kurrie.

21

#22 Tcann32

Tcann32

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Posted Today, 11:27 AM

To anyone questioning the "billet". The "billet" is basically the chunk of steel that comes in from a given supplier. If every manufacturer bought the same billet to forge their own way, you'd still have many differences in the club heads.

Miura not supplying their own billet would be like saying a cabinet maker doesn't supply his own hardwood.
What's actually in the bag...
Callaway Epic SZ-9.0-Aldila X-Torsion Green Mamba-70TX
Callaway Epic SZ 15* - PX Handcrafted Yellow 75 6.5
Callaway Apex UT 21* - PX 6.5
Miura LH LTD Black Blades: 3-p w/ DG TI X7's.
Cleveland RTX 3: 50-54 w. C-Taper S+
Scratch 1018: 58 w/ C-Taper S+
Piretti Potenza

Infrequently rotated in:
816 DBD, 2014 BBA, Nike Vapor Fly Pro
Nike Vapor Flex 3&5
Miura LH CB's, Callaway 2013 X forged, Callaway apex pro's
Scratch 1018: 58,59,51,55, Cleveland RTX 3 58.
Odyssey PT#2, Wilson Staff milled Kurrie.

22



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