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Probably old news but I find this interesting... Miura doesn't Forge anything!!


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#1 Tzoid

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 10:11 AM

I was doing a search on who forges Irons and found this.  I imagine Chris at TSG is the author but it makes me think twice
when I see someone saying " Miura forgings are superior"  I wonder who forges them for Miura?  Thoughts?

http://blog.tourspec...cturing-part-1/


This makes it confusing and somebody is bullshitting the public

https://www.youtube....h?v=Khh0g91P2S8

Edited by Tzoid, 14 May 2017 - 10:16 AM.

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#2 95124hacker

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 04:50 PM

View PostTzoid, on 14 May 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

I was doing a search on who forges Irons and found this.  I imagine Chris at TSG is the author but it makes me think twice
when I see someone saying " Miura forgings are superior"  I wonder who forges them for Miura?  Thoughts?

http://blog.tourspec...cturing-part-1/


This makes it confusing and somebody is bullshitting the public

https://www.youtube....h?v=Khh0g91P2S8

Yeah who knows??  If you scroll through the comments on the TSG article, the president of Miura Golf USA Adam Barr says the opposite. Case of he said, she said.

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#3 dan360

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 05:02 PM

People who know anything at all about the steel industry know most of what you hear in golf advertisement regarding the "metal" is fluff.  

GSS, 1018, grain flow, blah blah blah.

Basic metallurgy courses are kryponite to golf marketing.

The Japanese market is full of more legends than all of Greek Mythology and every Hall of Fame in the history of ever.  

Most of it is purely fluff.  All hat no cattle.

Edited by dan360, 14 May 2017 - 05:05 PM.

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#4 Tzoid

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 06:22 AM

View Post95124hacker, on 14 May 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

View PostTzoid, on 14 May 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

I was doing a search on who forges Irons and found this.  I imagine Chris at TSG is the author but it makes me think twice
when I see someone saying " Miura forgings are superior"  I wonder who forges them for Miura?  Thoughts?

http://blog.tourspec...cturing-part-1/


This makes it confusing and somebody is bullshitting the public

https://www.youtube....h?v=Khh0g91P2S8

Yeah who knows??  If you scroll through the comments on the TSG article, the president of Miura Golf USA Adam Barr says the opposite. Case of he said, she said.

I would think that TSG would be liable for slander or something for making such a claim unless there is some truth to it.
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#5 ksgolfguy007

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 08:01 AM

Tzoid who cares we play Onoff Kuro

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#6 Tcann32

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.
What's actually in the bag...
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Callaway Apex UT 21* - C- taper S+
Miura LH LTD Black Blades: 3-p w/ DG TI X7's.
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#7 Tzoid

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

Edited by Tzoid, 15 May 2017 - 12:06 PM.

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#8 FLOGMR

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 02:16 PM

That TSG articled is "Really Old sh*t and was published after TSG lost a pissing match with Miura Giken....all Miura forged heads are forged at  Miura "In house"....go visit the factory and put your mind at ease....they are more than happy to give a tour if you contact them in advance.
Just another BS article....and it is really old stuff......... Adam has not been the president of Miura for years.

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#9 Tcann32

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 02:25 PM

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

I'm always open to discussion! Sorry if my post was condescending in undertone, as that wasn't the intent.

Miuras are different than anything else I've hit, by a long shot. They aren't super soft, but certainly not hard either. As mentioned before, carbon is an impurity in steel, and Miura's forging eliminates carbon content vs re-arranging it. It leaves you with something that doesn't feel marshmallow soft like most expect, but the feel is incredible, none the less.

To the very, very best of my knowledge, Miura does forge their iron heads in-house. It's hard to believe they don't when they spin weld the hosels and press the grooves as well.

I had heard about the Scratch forging some time ago. I have 1018 wedges and love them and it doesn't surprise me to hear that the metal might be weaker than industry standards because those wedges are soooo soft. I love it in a wedge, but they won't last more than a season or two, and I live in MN, where we only play 1/2 seasons! Lol
What's actually in the bag...
Callaway Epic SZ-9.0-Aldila X-Torsion Green Mamba-70TX
Callaway Epic SZ 15* - PX Handcrafted Yellow 75 6.5
Callaway Apex UT 21* - C- taper S+
Miura LH LTD Black Blades: 3-p w/ DG TI X7's.
Cleveland RTX 3: 50-54 w. C-Taper S+
Scratch 1018: 58 w/ C-Taper S+
Piretti Potenza / Odyssey MX #7

Others gamed on occasion:
Callaway BBA (2014)
Callaway 13 X Forged w/ AMT X100's (hard stepped once)
Scratch Golf 51,55,58,59
Wilson Staff Kirk Currie Milled

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#10 Tzoid

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 05:00 PM

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

I'm always open to discussion! Sorry if my post was condescending in undertone, as that wasn't the intent.

Miuras are different than anything else I've hit, by a long shot. They aren't super soft, but certainly not hard either. As mentioned before, carbon is an impurity in steel, and Miura's forging eliminates carbon content vs re-arranging it. It leaves you with something that doesn't feel marshmallow soft like most expect, but the feel is incredible, none the less.

To the very, very best of my knowledge, Miura does forge their iron heads in-house. It's hard to believe they don't when they spin weld the hosels and press the grooves as well.

I had heard about the Scratch forging some time ago. I have 1018 wedges and love them and it doesn't surprise me to hear that the metal might be weaker than industry standards because those wedges are soooo soft. I love it in a wedge, but they won't last more than a season or two, and I live in MN, where we only play 1/2 seasons! Lol


I have hit and owned Miura Irons for short periods of time and they are definitely solid but I prefer the feel of the OnOff - Endo forgings. I also play Scratch wedges :)

            I know that article I linked is old but found it interesting that it even exists.

Texan raised in Maryland
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Ping G Driver Aldila Rogue Silver 60
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#11 FLOGMR

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 06:27 PM

It's the internet where you can post any nonsense you feel like....that is what TSG did years ago and there is always someone who buys into it.

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#12 Tzoid

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 10:37 PM

View PostFLOGMR, on 15 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

It's the internet where you can post any nonsense you feel like....that is what TSG did years ago and there is always someone who buys into it.

I guess Miura isn't holding a grudge over it since TSG sell Miura Giken
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#13 MJisGOAT

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 10:02 PM

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 10:37 PM, said:

View PostFLOGMR, on 15 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

It's the internet where you can post any nonsense you feel like....that is what TSG did years ago and there is always someone who buys into it.

I guess Miura isn't holding a grudge over it since TSG sell Miura Giken

Prime example of business is still business!

Edited by MJisGOAT, 25 June 2017 - 09:15 AM.

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#14 skraly

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 12:23 AM

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

I'm always open to discussion! Sorry if my post was condescending in undertone, as that wasn't the intent.

Miuras are different than anything else I've hit, by a long shot. They aren't super soft, but certainly not hard either. As mentioned before, carbon is an impurity in steel, and Miura's forging eliminates carbon content vs re-arranging it. It leaves you with something that doesn't feel marshmallow soft like most expect, but the feel is incredible, none the less.

To the very, very best of my knowledge, Miura does forge their iron heads in-house. It's hard to believe they don't when they spin weld the hosels and press the grooves as well.

I had heard about the Scratch forging some time ago. I have 1018 wedges and love them and it doesn't surprise me to hear that the metal might be weaker than industry standards because those wedges are soooo soft. I love it in a wedge, but they won't last more than a season or two, and I live in MN, where we only play 1/2 seasons! Lol
Carbon in steel is not an impurity.  It is what makes iron into steel.  You can add other alloying agents to change strength, malleability and so forth but without carbon it's just iron.  So when you say that Miura "eliminates carbon content", that's just wrong.

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#15 Bigmean

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 07:04 AM

Not sure if any of this helps:

https://search.yahoo...c=yfp-hrtab-900


http://www.golftoday...ng_process.html

The second is non video and looks to be done from a live visit as well. It shows the carbon alignment and forging process.
It also states 2 things.  Miura is supplied billet, and the "1 tonne air hammer" is in a location 1KM from main factory.  I believe the fourth striking forge is at the main factory?  Hard to gather.  It doesn't state weather or not Miura owns the press, it is implied that they do, just that they have it in another warehouse location.  Separate location for that kind of thing is not really uncommon for businesses do to growth, process being heavy or light, and available real estate not being there to just add on at either location.  That said, could easily be subbed out.  As a subcontractor I can tell you who cares.  My builders have phenomenal names and reputation and they use phenomenal subs that deliver a quality product to their specifications etc.  The clubs are literally no worse or better if they work with a foundry exclusively to develop their special sauce, or if they have their own press,  the sauce is no more or less special because of who pays overhead and taxes on what parts of its creation.

That all said, tsg is beyond a suspect aource, check the itabori thread amongst others.  If Miura is buying the raw billet as they did say, and the press is in an isolated location super close, as they did say, it seems just as logical or more logical Miura owns the press and owns/leases the second location.  I think people that don't have businesses or understand how things come to market and are used to "brand image" and "brand sales" get caught up in thinking the brand is more than it is.  Frankly, maybe Miura forgings are better because an experienced foundry is handling it instead of them.....maybe they are better because they do it in house, does it really matter past the finished product how it got there?

Edited by Bigmean, 25 June 2017 - 07:06 AM.

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#16 LionGolfer

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 07:09 AM

View PostFLOGMR, on 15 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

It's the internet where you can post any nonsense you feel like....that is what TSG did years ago and there is always someone who buys into it.

Too many unfortunately.
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#17 Llortamaisey

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 07:19 AM

Miura doesn't supply their own billet? Oh geez, next you're going to tell me that supplier casts it into a billet and not forges it into a billet.

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#18 theshadow1971

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 07:23 AM

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

View PostTzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

View PostTcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

I'm always open to discussion! Sorry if my post was condescending in undertone, as that wasn't the intent.

Miuras are different than anything else I've hit, by a long shot. They aren't super soft, but certainly not hard either. As mentioned before, carbon is an impurity in steel, and Miura's forging eliminates carbon content vs re-arranging it. It leaves you with something that doesn't feel marshmallow soft like most expect, but the feel is incredible, none the less.

To the very, very best of my knowledge, Miura does forge their iron heads in-house. It's hard to believe they don't when they spin weld the hosels and press the grooves as well.

I had heard about the Scratch forging some time ago. I have 1018 wedges and love them and it doesn't surprise me to hear that the metal might be weaker than industry standards because those wedges are soooo soft. I love it in a wedge, but they won't last more than a season or two, and I live in MN, where we only play 1/2 seasons! Lol


I have hit and owned Miura Irons for short periods of time and they are definitely solid but I prefer the feel of the OnOff - Endo forgings. I also play Scratch wedges :)

I know that article I linked is old but found it interesting that it even exists.

Is the Endo forging for OnOff done in Japan or Thailand?
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#19 theshadow1971

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 07:37 AM

View PostLlortamaisey, on 25 June 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

Miura doesn't supply their own billet? Oh geez, next you're going to tell me that supplier casts it into a billet and not forges it into a billet.

I think a billet is a cast?
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Z H45 19* 3 Hybrid
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#20 widow-maker

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 11:02 AM

View PostBigmean, on 25 June 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

Not sure if any of this helps:

https://search.yahoo...c=yfp-hrtab-900


http://www.golftoday...ng_process.html

The second is non video and looks to be done from a live visit as well. It shows the carbon alignment and forging process.
It also states 2 things.  Miura is supplied billet, and the "1 tonne air hammer" is in a location 1KM from main factory.  I believe the fourth striking forge is at the main factory?  Hard to gather.  It doesn't state weather or not Miura owns the press, it is implied that they do, just that they have it in another warehouse location.  Separate location for that kind of thing is not really uncommon for businesses do to growth, process being heavy or light, and available real estate not being there to just add on at either location.  That said, could easily be subbed out.  As a subcontractor I can tell you who cares.  My builders have phenomenal names and reputation and they use phenomenal subs that deliver a quality product to their specifications etc.  The clubs are literally no worse or better if they work with a foundry exclusively to develop their special sauce, or if they have their own press,  the sauce is no more or less special because of who pays overhead and taxes on what parts of its creation.

That all said, tsg is beyond a suspect aource, check the itabori thread amongst others.  If Miura is buying the raw billet as they did say, and the press is in an isolated location super close, as they did say, it seems just as logical or more logical Miura owns the press and owns/leases the second location.  I think people that don't have businesses or understand how things come to market and are used to "brand image" and "brand sales" get caught up in thinking the brand is more than it is.  Frankly, maybe Miura forgings are better because an experienced foundry is handling it instead of them.....maybe they are better because they do it in house, does it really matter past the finished product how it got there?
It doesn't surprise me that the original forgings are done in a different building, whether he owns it, leases space, or contracts it out.  Who wants their employees that do the sanding and finishing working in an environment where a forging press is banging every 15-30 seconds?  Heck, he and his sons do a lot of the finishing work themselves... why would they put themselves in an environment where forging presses are banging.  It only makes sense that the two operations are separate.  Whatever and however they're doing it... it's working rather well.  I'm sure that other companies keep their forging building separate from their finishing operations.  This seems more an argument about semantics rather than club quality.


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#21 Tcann32

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 11:19 AM

 skraly, on 25 June 2017 - 12:23 AM, said:

 Tcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

 Tzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

 Tcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

I'm always open to discussion! Sorry if my post was condescending in undertone, as that wasn't the intent.

Miuras are different than anything else I've hit, by a long shot. They aren't super soft, but certainly not hard either. As mentioned before, carbon is an impurity in steel, and Miura's forging eliminates carbon content vs re-arranging it. It leaves you with something that doesn't feel marshmallow soft like most expect, but the feel is incredible, none the less.

To the very, very best of my knowledge, Miura does forge their iron heads in-house. It's hard to believe they don't when they spin weld the hosels and press the grooves as well.

I had heard about the Scratch forging some time ago. I have 1018 wedges and love them and it doesn't surprise me to hear that the metal might be weaker than industry standards because those wedges are soooo soft. I love it in a wedge, but they won't last more than a season or two, and I live in MN, where we only play 1/2 seasons! Lol
Carbon in steel is not an impurity.  It is what makes iron into steel.  You can add other alloying agents to change strength, malleability and so forth but without carbon it's just iron.  So when you say that Miura "eliminates carbon content", that's just wrong.

It'd be nearly impossible to forge all carbon out of the steel, but Miura forgings eliminate as much of it as possible. Carbon is an impurity in steel. A higher carbon content equates to more voids and pockets in the steel itself. Maybe you're a metallurgist, idk, but for the sake of this conversation and anyone else reading, carbon in steel is similar to a sponge. The carbon is the holes in the sponge, and forging presses the sponge (steel), eliminating the holes (carbon voids). This is what I had learned from my father, who does happen to be an expert in metals.

It's also pretty well correlated with Miura's description of their forging process as seen below. If this description is still in fact wrong, then I'd say you have something to teach me, my old man, and Miura himself.

forging.JPG


As you can see, they're eliminating a large portion of the carbon within the metal, and the grain structure becomes much tighter. Softer irons feel softer because the carbon voids are much larger.

Edited by Tcann32, 26 June 2017 - 11:23 AM.

What's actually in the bag...
Callaway Epic SZ-9.0-Aldila X-Torsion Green Mamba-70TX
Callaway Epic SZ 15* - PX Handcrafted Yellow 75 6.5
Callaway Apex UT 21* - C- taper S+
Miura LH LTD Black Blades: 3-p w/ DG TI X7's.
Cleveland RTX 3: 50-54 w. C-Taper S+
Scratch 1018: 58 w/ C-Taper S+
Piretti Potenza / Odyssey MX #7

Others gamed on occasion:
Callaway BBA (2014)
Callaway 13 X Forged w/ AMT X100's (hard stepped once)
Scratch Golf 51,55,58,59
Wilson Staff Kirk Currie Milled

21

#22 Tcann32

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 11:27 AM

To anyone questioning the "billet". The "billet" is basically the chunk of steel that comes in from a given supplier. If every manufacturer bought the same billet to forge their own way, you'd still have many differences in the club heads.

Miura not supplying their own billet would be like saying a cabinet maker doesn't supply his own hardwood.
What's actually in the bag...
Callaway Epic SZ-9.0-Aldila X-Torsion Green Mamba-70TX
Callaway Epic SZ 15* - PX Handcrafted Yellow 75 6.5
Callaway Apex UT 21* - C- taper S+
Miura LH LTD Black Blades: 3-p w/ DG TI X7's.
Cleveland RTX 3: 50-54 w. C-Taper S+
Scratch 1018: 58 w/ C-Taper S+
Piretti Potenza / Odyssey MX #7

Others gamed on occasion:
Callaway BBA (2014)
Callaway 13 X Forged w/ AMT X100's (hard stepped once)
Scratch Golf 51,55,58,59
Wilson Staff Kirk Currie Milled

22

#23 dan360

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 12:08 AM

 Tcann32, on 26 June 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

 skraly, on 25 June 2017 - 12:23 AM, said:

 Tcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

 Tzoid, on 15 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

 Tcann32, on 15 May 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Well, the article is referring to a brand that hasn't been around for 2-3 years now, so old news would be confirmed.

What Miura does in-house is what differentiates them from others who use the "same" metals. Hint: it has to do with carbon content, which is an impurity in steel.

I get that they do "something" In-House but just find it interesting when they say "Miura Forgings" are ( insert adjectives) when TSG who happens to be a dealer of JPN Miura heads publishes the information stating they source from another forging house.

    Forums are to have a discussion so I would love to hear what the Miura users have to say.

I'm always open to discussion! Sorry if my post was condescending in undertone, as that wasn't the intent.

Miuras are different than anything else I've hit, by a long shot. They aren't super soft, but certainly not hard either. As mentioned before, carbon is an impurity in steel, and Miura's forging eliminates carbon content vs re-arranging it. It leaves you with something that doesn't feel marshmallow soft like most expect, but the feel is incredible, none the less.

To the very, very best of my knowledge, Miura does forge their iron heads in-house. It's hard to believe they don't when they spin weld the hosels and press the grooves as well.

I had heard about the Scratch forging some time ago. I have 1018 wedges and love them and it doesn't surprise me to hear that the metal might be weaker than industry standards because those wedges are soooo soft. I love it in a wedge, but they won't last more than a season or two, and I live in MN, where we only play 1/2 seasons! Lol
Carbon in steel is not an impurity.  It is what makes iron into steel.  You can add other alloying agents to change strength, malleability and so forth but without carbon it's just iron.  So when you say that Miura "eliminates carbon content", that's just wrong.

It'd be nearly impossible to forge all carbon out of the steel, but Miura forgings eliminate as much of it as possible. Carbon is an impurity in steel. A higher carbon content equates to more voids and pockets in the steel itself. Maybe you're a metallurgist, idk, but for the sake of this conversation and anyone else reading, carbon in steel is similar to a sponge. The carbon is the holes in the sponge, and forging presses the sponge (steel), eliminating the holes (carbon voids). This is what I had learned from my father, who does happen to be an expert in metals.

It's also pretty well correlated with Miura's description of their forging process as seen below. If this description is still in fact wrong, then I'd say you have something to teach me, my old man, and Miura himself.

forging.JPG


As you can see, they're eliminating a large portion of the carbon within the metal, and the grain structure becomes much tighter. Softer irons feel softer because the carbon voids are much larger.

Wrong.  Wrong.  Wrong.  Wrong.  Wrong.  

First.   Carbon is NOT an impurity in steel.  To make STEEL, you need a combination of iron, carbon, and other alloys in limited percentage.  In what people know as "carbon steel" anyway.   Stainless is different.  Much harder too fwiw but I digress.  

Iron is formable with ease.  It's also quite soft and weak.   Hence, the higher the carbon content, the stronger and less ductile (stiffer) a steel is.   Golf marketing loves the "1018" low carbon "super duper soft steel" because people think it's like butter.    

You know how else to describe butter?   Soft.  Weak. Easily ruined...

At the risk of writing yet another rebuttal of so called expert information that oozes out of the cracks all over this site like Twinkie filling, let me just say that Miura is:

1.  Posting pictures of what you'll see under just about any multi strike forge process if you were to look in any foundry in the world who uses a multi strike forge.

2.  Spin welding the hosel to the head.    I reckon if they (Miura) forged the same as they do, changed nothing other than making the hosel and head one piece drawn on a die instead of welded, their "feel" would be more akin to what people usually, inaccurately but whatever, compare as "Titleist" or "Mizuno".   (Clicky or butter...). That feel would depend on the source steel composition, +/- whatever the "hands of god" do.   SMDH...

Carbon content gives strength and hardness to steel.  It's nothing like a sponge.  Opposite if anything.  That's like step 3 of 1,000,000,000 in becoming an expert of metals but whatever.  

Miura makes fine golf clubs.  So do many others.  I just wish they'd drop the storybook legend s**t but it works in the JDM marketing BS so I get it.

Edited by dan360, 28 June 2017 - 12:17 AM.

As of 01AUG2017

Mizuno JPX-800 9°
TaylorMade R7TPST 15°

Mizuno MP-H5 Hitogami 1 iron
Mizuno MP-33 3-P custom single length

Mizuno MP-T11 54/60
PING Anser 2 'pat pending' stainless 35"
Callaway Chrome Soft Truvis
PING Hoofer green

23

#24 Bigmean

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 07:13 AM

Dan, yes on all of that, but I don't understand the venom against?

Do you loathe BMW because Kia makes cars with same materials and same concept of 4 wheels and a steering wheel?  Do you dislike anything not got at a wal mart?  Do you really think most (I have to say most because there are some head scratching comments like take carbon out of steel) people that buy JDM think they are getting anything other than a quality made club with excellent fit and finish?  Can you really argue that Miura and mizuno do not have their own feel characteristics?  I agree that the actual making. Of these things is like some dirty warehouse with nothing special at all happening, but I am sure they all have their preferred steel sources and lbs per strike formulas or whatever it is they do.  Is mizuno grain flow as made up as ninja dust?  

I guess I am just saying yes, people need to understand that for a product that costs as little as golf clubs, it is just a dirty factory line.  You are paying twice as much for Japanese labor and tolerances and fit and finish and frankly despite clubs being made the same I can tell a Miura wedge from my onoff/endo wedges blondfolded and some houses do have feel traits.  Now are they overhyped  or exaggerated, maybe to some, maybe not to others, that is for the consumer to decide.

Edited by Bigmean, 29 June 2017 - 04:01 PM.

Ryoma Maxima 9.5*/Quadra Fire Express
    913F 15*/Tour AD MT7
    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
            Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
            Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.

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#25 lumberman2462

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 08:31 AM

I don't care where my Miura's were forged....they hit pretty darn solid.

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#26 dan360

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 06:53 PM

 Bigmean, on 28 June 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

Dan, yes on all of that, but I don't understand the venom against?

Do you loathe BMW because Kia makes cars with same materials and same concept of 4 wheels and a steering wheel?  Do you dislike anything not got at a wal mart?  Do you really think most (I have to say most because there are some head scratching comments like take carbon out of steel) people that buy JDM think they are getting anything other than a quality made club with excellent fit and finish?  Can you really argue that Miura and mizuno do not have their own feel characteristics?  I agree that the actual making. Of these things is like some dirty warehouse with nothing special at all happening, but I am sure they all have their preferred steel sources and lbs per strike formulas or whatever it is they do.  Is mizuno grain flow as made up as ninja dust?  

I guess I am just saying yes, people need to understand that for a product that costs as little as golf clubs, it is just a dirty factory line.  You are paying twice as much for Japanese labor and tolerances and fit and finish and frankly despite clubs being made the same I can tell a Miura wedge from my onoff/endo wedges blondfolded and some houses do have feel traits.  Now are they overhyped  or exaggerated, maybe to some, maybe not to others, that is for the consumer to decide.

No sir.  I believe Miura makes fine golf equipment.   Many brands have their unique "feel" and claims of how their tech is the best.  

I just get tired of the inaccuracies.  Nothing more, nothing less.
As of 01AUG2017

Mizuno JPX-800 9°
TaylorMade R7TPST 15°

Mizuno MP-H5 Hitogami 1 iron
Mizuno MP-33 3-P custom single length

Mizuno MP-T11 54/60
PING Anser 2 'pat pending' stainless 35"
Callaway Chrome Soft Truvis
PING Hoofer green

26

#27 Nessism

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 07:32 PM

That TSG article is nonsense.  Very surprising to read.  Notice how the TSG owner didn't come back into the discussion after the Miura president guy called him out?  

Regarding 1018 steel being garbage, that's ridiculous.  Yes, it's a low strength steel.  Commonly used in commercial goods.  The Japan steel mills run at a higher cost than the Chinese mills, so they typically reserve their production runs for something more specialized (expensive) steels than 1018.  The same thing happens in the USA steel mills that focus on speciality products.
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#28 dan360

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 09:42 PM

 Nessism, on 29 June 2017 - 07:32 PM, said:

That TSG article is nonsense.  Very surprising to read.  Notice how the TSG owner didn't come back into the discussion after the Miura president guy called him out?  

Regarding 1018 steel being garbage, that's ridiculous.  Yes, it's a low strength steel.  Commonly used in commercial goods.  The Japan steel mills run at a higher cost than the Chinese mills, so they typically reserve their production runs for something more specialized (expensive) steels than 1018.  The same thing happens in the USA steel mills that focus on speciality products.

Japan has a track record of producing exceptional steel in many grades.

Especially blades.   The irony is the same expertise producing iconic blade steel is being used as a selling point for 1018/1025 which is by all accounts a low grade crap steel that has found a niche in golf clubs.  For "feeeeeeeeeeeels"

Smoke. Mirrors.  A naked emperor in a parade.   Whatever.   It's as amusing as it is aggravating.




As of 01AUG2017

Mizuno JPX-800 9°
TaylorMade R7TPST 15°

Mizuno MP-H5 Hitogami 1 iron
Mizuno MP-33 3-P custom single length

Mizuno MP-T11 54/60
PING Anser 2 'pat pending' stainless 35"
Callaway Chrome Soft Truvis
PING Hoofer green

28

#29 Bigmean

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 11:23 PM

 dan360, on 29 June 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

 Bigmean, on 28 June 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

Dan, yes on all of that, but I don't understand the venom against?

Do you loathe BMW because Kia makes cars with same materials and same concept of 4 wheels and a steering wheel?  Do you dislike anything not got at a wal mart?  Do you really think most (I have to say most because there are some head scratching comments like take carbon out of steel) people that buy JDM think they are getting anything other than a quality made club with excellent fit and finish?  Can you really argue that Miura and mizuno do not have their own feel characteristics?  I agree that the actual making. Of these things is like some dirty warehouse with nothing special at all happening, but I am sure they all have their preferred steel sources and lbs per strike formulas or whatever it is they do.  Is mizuno grain flow as made up as ninja dust?  

I guess I am just saying yes, people need to understand that for a product that costs as little as golf clubs, it is just a dirty factory line.  You are paying twice as much for Japanese labor and tolerances and fit and finish and frankly despite clubs being made the same I can tell a Miura wedge from my onoff/endo wedges blondfolded and some houses do have feel traits.  Now are they overhyped  or exaggerated, maybe to some, maybe not to others, that is for the consumer to decide.

No sir.  I believe Miura makes fine golf equipment.   Many brands have their unique "feel" and claims of how their tech is the best.  

I just get tired of the inaccuracies.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Very fair enough.  I am not a dog in fight person. Despite having and being quite fond of my Miura, I have also sold off sets of Miura.  If anything when I spend more on something I hate it more, scrutinize it more and pick it apart.  I do from experience believe feel is more than a quotation, but I also believe that people wrongly convince themselves to Feel something they don't because of hype or what they paid.  However as someone who could hit my Miura against whatever else you gave me same shafts, I "feel" confident blindfolded Idould tell you what irons are mine with low error percentage.  Now how much of that is the steel and forging, and how much is the head shape, who knows.  I wish Kyoei made a small blade, I "feel" like (pun intended :)) that would be one hell of a club.

Dan, I think you are right on with a lot, but there are still some tangible differences in clubs is all.  Parroting and inaccuracies don't do anyone any good and are quite prevalent, no doubt there.

Edited by Bigmean, 29 June 2017 - 11:27 PM.

Ryoma Maxima 9.5*/Quadra Fire Express
    913F 15*/Tour AD MT7
    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
            Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
            Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.

29

#30 dan360

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 11:30 PM

People describe Miura as "soft yet firm" or "dense" or something similar.  

I reckon, purely from metallurgy and old fashioned country boy seat of the pants, that the welded hosel has a LOT to do with it.  More so than any special forging process.  

In one piece it's gonna be buttery soft....the welded hosel me thinks is where the "magic" lies.  

Could be wrong.  :)

I like Japanese clubs. Always have.  I just tend to prefer the ones that say Mizuno on them.   Miura makes some gems though for sure.

I put "feel" in quotes as it's a combination of many things.  Vibration, frequencies, sound, et al.   To quantify "feel" it's complex.  

Miura has a distinct "feel" as do many others.  Their's is probably more "unique" due to what I've already mentioned.  Purely my own theories and/or hypothesis.  No hands of god or samurais involved.  lol

I'm probably way off the original post but that just resonates to me as pot kettle smoke is mad at the mirrors.   Hyperbole vs. embellishment.   :)

Edited by dan360, 29 June 2017 - 11:36 PM.

As of 01AUG2017

Mizuno JPX-800 9°
TaylorMade R7TPST 15°

Mizuno MP-H5 Hitogami 1 iron
Mizuno MP-33 3-P custom single length

Mizuno MP-T11 54/60
PING Anser 2 'pat pending' stainless 35"
Callaway Chrome Soft Truvis
PING Hoofer green

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