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MDLT Thoughts On Using The Arms


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#61 sjsdogsrule

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:23 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 22 May 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:


The original post was for guys like you, people having difficulty isolating the arms and swinging with them.  Unfortunately words are a poor vehicle for transmitting what it means to swing the club with the arms.  When Manny gave lessons he would put his hand on the students club. tell the student to relax, and then move the club back and forth in a swinging motion.  Soon the student is able to identify the proper motion and practice replicating it.  Being able to play the game is ultimately dependent on swinging consistently and to do that  that you need to know what it feels like.  Unless you can find an instructor of the method, you will need to find the feeling on the range.

Steve
And that's the rub.  Finding the feeling.  I don't think its anything that one can video tape and see for themselves.  You had the experience with Manny, so you know the feeling.  He probably did that drill moving the club with you.  Finding the feel in any method of a swing is key.


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#62 johnnymac2201

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 07:04 AM

On some of the videos of Manny on YouTube you can see him with his hands on the students clubs and swinging it for them. It's great to see the difference between what people think a swing is, and the swing that Manny gets them to feel.

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#63 juststeve

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 08:49 AM

How to identify a true swinging motion without an instructor to help you?

The best way I know is to swing the club with your feet together.  Don't cheat.  Together means together.  The idea is to put your balance in jeopardy.

Start with small swings, back and forward, brushing the ground as you go.  No ball for now, Just swing and brush.  Do it in front of the TV if you want, wife permitting.  Gradually work up to a complete range of motion, from over the trail shoulder to over the lead shoulder, brushing the ground as you go.  There is no hit in this motion, no leverage.  The club head and the butt of the club are moving in the same direction at any point in time.

Then take it to the range.  Put a ball down, swing back, swing forward, and just brush the turf letting the ball get in the way.  Remember, no hitting action, no leverage, just swing and brush.  As you earn the right to do so gradually give yourself permission to widen your stance.  If you lose the sensation of the club moving around a quiet body, retreat to the narrow stance until you get the feeling back.

People who have gone through this process discover a few things.  1) you can hit the ball a long ways with a true swinging motion.  2) The ratio of distance to effort is favorable.  3)  So long as you are swinging the club around the quiet body the club bottoms out in the same place every time.  

This will take a little time but if you do it you will know what it feels like to swing a golf club, which a lot of golfers have never experienced.

Steve

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#64 slantsflood

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 09:16 AM

Got a question for you Steve.  Did Manuel teach a lagging clubhead from the start of the swing?  I always hear some comments on that as far as the ernest jones method.  I always figured Manuel's setup/takeaway/backswing were the same as ernest's, but had upper arms instead of hands on the downswing.  If the butt end and the clubhead are moving at the same I assume not, correct?
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#65 juststeve

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 10:11 AM

View Postslantsflood, on 23 May 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

Got a question for you Steve.  Did Manuel teach a lagging clubhead from the start of the swing?  I always hear some comments on that as far as the ernest jones method.  I always figured Manuel's setup/takeaway/back Manny taught that the butt of the club and the club head swing were the same as ernest's, but had upper arms instead of hands on the downswing.  If the butt end and the clubhead are moving at the same I assume not, correct?

Manny did not teach lagging the club head at the beginning of the back swing.  Quite the opposite.  Manny taught that the butt of the club and the club head mover in the same direction whenever they move.

There is a too short youtube video Of Ted Purdy swinging a driver.  His take away is exactly what Manny taught,

Steve


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#66 Shilgy

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 06:17 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 23 May 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

View Postslantsflood, on 23 May 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

Got a question for you Steve.  Did Manuel teach a lagging clubhead from the start of the swing?  I always hear some comments on that as far as the ernest jones method.  I always figured Manuel's setup/takeaway/back Manny taught that the butt of the club and the club head swing were the same as ernest's, but had upper arms instead of hands on the downswing.  If the butt end and the clubhead are moving at the same I assume not, correct?

Manny did not teach lagging the club head at the beginning of the back swing.  Quite the opposite.  Manny taught that the butt of the club and the club head mover in the same direction whenever they move.

There is a too short youtube video Of Ted Purdy swinging a driver.  His take away is exactly what Manny taught,

Steve
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#67 1puttEagle

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 07:20 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 23 May 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

How to identify a true swinging motion without an instructor to help you?

The best way I know is to swing the club with your feet together.  Don't cheat.  Together means together.  The idea is to put your balance in jeopardy.

Start with small swings, back and forward, brushing the ground as you go.  No ball for now, Just swing and brush.  Do it in front of the TV if you want, wife permitting.  Gradually work up to a complete range of motion, from over the trail shoulder to over the lead shoulder, brushing the ground as you go.  There is no hit in this motion, no leverage.  The club head and the butt of the club are moving in the same direction at any point in time.

Then take it to the range.  Put a ball down, swing back, swing forward, and just brush the turf letting the ball get in the way.  Remember, no hitting action, no leverage, just swing and brush.  As you earn the right to do so gradually give yourself permission to widen your stance.  If you lose the sensation of the club moving around a quiet body, retreat to the narrow stance until you get the feeling back.

People who have gone through this process discover a few things.  1) you can hit the ball a long ways with a true swinging motion.  2) The ratio of distance to effort is favorable.  3)  So long as you are swinging the club around the quiet body the club bottoms out in the same place every time.  

This will take a little time but if you do it you will know what it feels like to swing a golf club, which a lot of golfers have never experienced.

Steve

Steve, I remembered you said this after about 10 balls tonight.  I hit the rest of the jumbo bucket with my feet together.  It really does make you swing, no cheating.  And the ball was going just as far, probably because a swing has more power than whatever I normally do.  Not that they were all pure, but any mis-hits were much better than normal.

On the first ten balls I was swinging well but pulling to the left.  I felt like I was aligned square, but then turning or something so that the club was just swinging to the left of target.  Putting my feet together straightened it out.  I'll be doing this for a while, so I can keep feeling an actual swing.

Thanks so much for sharing your words of wisdom, straight from the source.

Edited by 1puttEagle, 23 May 2017 - 07:35 PM.


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#68 Terry Gold

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 04:55 AM

View Postjuststeve, on 19 May 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

View PostTerry Gold, on 19 May 2017 - 05:59 AM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 16 May 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

View Postnohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.
pearls before swing
Steve
Impeccable response, on any level.

Terry:

Thank you for quoting me.  It brought a typo I made to my attention, which I want to correct.  I wrote "pearls before swing" but meant to write "pearls before swine" a Biblical reference that makes a lot more sense in the context of this discussion.  I don't know what pearls before swing would mean.

Steve

It's a fine line between intention, typo, and poetry.  That's all.
I knew what you meant. And what 'pearls before swing' would mean as well.

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#69 juststeve

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 09:20 AM

View Post1puttEagle, on 23 May 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 23 May 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

How to identify a true swinging motion without an instructor to help you?

The best way I know is to swing the club with your feet together.  Don't cheat.  Together means together.  The idea is to put your balance in jeopardy.

Start with small swings, back and forward, brushing the ground as you go.  No ball for now, Just swing and brush.  Do it in front of the TV if you want, wife permitting.  Gradually work up to a complete range of motion, from over the trail shoulder to over the lead shoulder, brushing the ground as you go.  There is no hit in this motion, no leverage.  The club head and the butt of the club are moving in the same direction at any point in time.

Then take it to the range.  Put a ball down, swing back, swing forward, and just brush the turf letting the ball get in the way.  Remember, no hitting action, no leverage, just swing and brush.  As you earn the right to do so gradually give yourself permission to widen your stance.  If you lose the sensation of the club moving around a quiet body, retreat to the narrow stance until you get the feeling back.

People who have gone through this process discover a few things.  1) you can hit the ball a long ways with a true swinging motion.  2) The ratio of distance to effort is favorable.  3)  So long as you are swinging the club around the quiet body the club bottoms out in the same place every time.  

This will take a little time but if you do it you will know what it feels like to swing a golf club, which a lot of golfers have never experienced.

Steve

Steve, I remembered you said this after about 10 balls tonight.  I hit the rest of the jumbo bucket with my feet together.  It really does make you swing, no cheating.  And the ball was going just as far, probably because a swing has more power than whatever I normally do.  Not that they were all pure, but any mis-hits were much better than normal.

On the first ten balls I was swinging well but pulling to the left.  I felt like I was aligned square, but then turning or something so that the club was just swinging to the left of target.  Putting my feet together straightened it out.  I'll be doing this for a while, so I can keep feeling an actual swing.

Thanks so much for sharing your words of wisdom, straight from the source.

Sounds like you are making progress.  That's good.  From time to time you may lose the feeling and need to go back to feet together to recover it.  After a while it will just be the way you move the club.

Manny taught us to place the club head in the center of our stance for any normal full shot, with every club, from driver to wedge.   Others disagree.  Manny's reasoning was that by putting the club head in the center of out stance we promote correct shoulder alignment, which in turn promotes the correct path on the back swing, which then promotes correct path in the forwards swing.  I mention this because when you swing with the feet together  you automatically position the club heads in the center of your stance, or very close thereto.  When you begin to widen your stance you need to pay strict attention  to where you place the club heads in relation to your stance.  Let it move out of the center and your shoulder alignment may be adversely  effected.

Just guessing here, but I suspect that when you were hitting the ball left, you were setting up with the club head left of center in your stance.  That has the effect of opening your shoulders, moving your back swing outside the line, and causing your forward swing a bit outside in, hence the lefts.  It could have been caused by other things, but since the lefts went away when you put the club head in the center of your stance, its something for you to think about.

Steve

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#70 1puttEagle

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 09:32 AM

View Postjuststeve, on 24 May 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

View Post1puttEagle, on 23 May 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 23 May 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

How to identify a true swinging motion without an instructor to help you?

The best way I know is to swing the club with your feet together.  Don't cheat.  Together means together.  The idea is to put your balance in jeopardy.

Start with small swings, back and forward, brushing the ground as you go.  No ball for now, Just swing and brush.  Do it in front of the TV if you want, wife permitting.  Gradually work up to a complete range of motion, from over the trail shoulder to over the lead shoulder, brushing the ground as you go.  There is no hit in this motion, no leverage.  The club head and the butt of the club are moving in the same direction at any point in time.

Then take it to the range.  Put a ball down, swing back, swing forward, and just brush the turf letting the ball get in the way.  Remember, no hitting action, no leverage, just swing and brush.  As you earn the right to do so gradually give yourself permission to widen your stance.  If you lose the sensation of the club moving around a quiet body, retreat to the narrow stance until you get the feeling back.

People who have gone through this process discover a few things.  1) you can hit the ball a long ways with a true swinging motion.  2) The ratio of distance to effort is favorable.  3)  So long as you are swinging the club around the quiet body the club bottoms out in the same place every time.  

This will take a little time but if you do it you will know what it feels like to swing a golf club, which a lot of golfers have never experienced.

Steve

Steve, I remembered you said this after about 10 balls tonight.  I hit the rest of the jumbo bucket with my feet together.  It really does make you swing, no cheating.  And the ball was going just as far, probably because a swing has more power than whatever I normally do.  Not that they were all pure, but any mis-hits were much better than normal.

On the first ten balls I was swinging well but pulling to the left.  I felt like I was aligned square, but then turning or something so that the club was just swinging to the left of target.  Putting my feet together straightened it out.  I'll be doing this for a while, so I can keep feeling an actual swing.

Thanks so much for sharing your words of wisdom, straight from the source.

Sounds like you are making progress.  That's good.  From time to time you may lose the feeling and need to go back to feet together to recover it.  After a while it will just be the way you move the club.

Manny taught us to place the club head in the center of our stance for any normal full shot, with every club, from driver to wedge.   Others disagree.  Manny's reasoning was that by putting the club head in the center of out stance we promote correct shoulder alignment, which in turn promotes the correct path on the back swing, which then promotes correct path in the forwards swing.  I mention this because when you swing with the feet together  you automatically position the club heads in the center of your stance, or very close thereto.  When you begin to widen your stance you need to pay strict attention  to where you place the club heads in relation to your stance.  Let it move out of the center and your shoulder alignment may be adversely  effected.

Just guessing here, but I suspect that when you were hitting the ball left, you were setting up with the club head left of center in your stance.  That has the effect of opening your shoulders, moving your back swing outside the line, and causing your forward swing a bit outside in, hence the lefts.  It could have been caused by other things, but since the lefts went away when you put the club head in the center of your stance, its something for you to think about.

Steve

Thanks for the advice.  You are probably right on where my clubhead was.

I'm aligning as Manny says in the book (the 3rd method), standing behind the ball and focusing on the target, walking diagonally to beside the ball, pointing the right foot at the ball while placing the clubhead, still focusing on target, then taking my stance, still looking at target.

I found that when I place the clubhead behind the ball, I need to immediately point the butt of the club at the center of my body.  My tendency is to have it more in line with the left arm, and I find that if I take my stance, then adjust the handle to the center of my body, I'm way off on the alignment.  When I point the butt at the center of my body from the start, I line up correctly.


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#71 SuperPunch

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 10:27 AM

This is something I've also struggled a little bit with. In my mind, when I point the butt end of the club to the center, then the face will be slightly shut at address. If I have the face square, then the handle points just a little to the left of my center (not a ton).

So, is it that I'm completely off on the way I'm even setting my club down, or is part of the method intentional to have the face slightly closed if the butt end points directly at your center?

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#72 johnnymac2201

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 02:23 AM

View PostSuperPunch, on 24 May 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

This is something I've also struggled a little bit with. In my mind, when I point the butt end of the club to the center, then the face will be slightly shut at address. If I have the face square, then the handle points just a little to the left of my center (not a ton).

So, is it that I'm completely off on the way I'm even setting my club down, or is part of the method intentional to have the face slightly closed if the butt end points directly at your center?

Are you talking about with all clubs, or just the Driver? If it's all clubs, then you probably need to check your grip. No reason for the face to be closed just because the club is centered in your stance. If it's just the Driver, it's because many Drivers are built so that they sit a little closed to help people combat their slices. The way to fix it is to not let the club rest on the ground, but to hover it above the ground at address.

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#73 SuperPunch

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 07:46 AM

Thank you Johnny. I actually was talking about all my clubs, so I'll give my grip another look, I have no doubt it needs extra attention anyhow. Appreciate the response.

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#74 The Pearl

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 09:11 AM

SuperPunch,

You might want to have somebody help you check your grip using Manuel's methodology.

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#75 bph7

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 10:17 AM

View Postjuststeve, on 18 May 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

View PostLefty Light HItter, on 18 May 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

A few observations:

1.  People seem to associate with an instructor as if it were a gang or a club.  This is not limited to MDLT because you can find it with all of the instructors who are prominent here.  Everyone seems to want to be in someone's "camp."  I hit balls at a range where a guy teaches and I have yet to hear him in a lesson not mention MDLT or have a picture or an article or a book that he feels compelled to show the students and say, "this is my teacher."  You would think the guy is JC's right hand man or the patron saint of golf with how glowing I hear the guy talk about him and show off his picture.  What it doesn't to?  Doesn't help the students get better by saying, "well Manny told me this" or "when I was up to see Manny we did this."  

2.  As someone who always thought that I swung a baseball bat with my hands and forearms with no body emphasis I had to come to the conclusion that what I felt I was doing wasn't exactly what was going on.  Now for me I hit a ball best thinking of an arms/hands driven swing and not a body one, but that's clearly not everyone.  Arm swinging is not a god send to everyone nor is GGSwingTips very exaggerated rotation.  

3.  Telling someone to "swing down the target line" may work for someone who swings it way over the top, but it probably doesn't for someone who is stuck underneath.  The club head is already going out there for too long anyway.  Tell me to swing down the target line and I'll start shanking it quickly.

At the risk of repeating myself, my original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

To put even a finer point on it, I have no interest in debating the merits of Manny's swing concepts with people who show no evidence of understanding them.  bph7 and lefty fall into that category.

If anyone else wants to better understand what Manny taught, I'm here and will do my best.

Steve

Steve

Ok, fair enough, in that case I strongly disagree with MDLT on the arms. I don't think he was close to correct. Seemed like a great guy and a great teacher, maybe you just aren't good at communicating his ideas?  Maybe there is a disconnect between his ideas and your ability to communicate them such that you aren't a good spokesperson?


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#76 Golfbeat

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 10:46 AM

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 18 May 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

View PostLefty Light HItter, on 18 May 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

A few observations:

1.  People seem to associate with an instructor as if it were a gang or a club.  This is not limited to MDLT because you can find it with all of the instructors who are prominent here.  Everyone seems to want to be in someone's "camp."  I hit balls at a range where a guy teaches and I have yet to hear him in a lesson not mention MDLT or have a picture or an article or a book that he feels compelled to show the students and say, "this is my teacher."  You would think the guy is JC's right hand man or the patron saint of golf with how glowing I hear the guy talk about him and show off his picture.  What it doesn't to?  Doesn't help the students get better by saying, "well Manny told me this" or "when I was up to see Manny we did this."  

2.  As someone who always thought that I swung a baseball bat with my hands and forearms with no body emphasis I had to come to the conclusion that what I felt I was doing wasn't exactly what was going on.  Now for me I hit a ball best thinking of an arms/hands driven swing and not a body one, but that's clearly not everyone.  Arm swinging is not a god send to everyone nor is GGSwingTips very exaggerated rotation.  

3.  Telling someone to "swing down the target line" may work for someone who swings it way over the top, but it probably doesn't for someone who is stuck underneath.  The club head is already going out there for too long anyway.  Tell me to swing down the target line and I'll start shanking it quickly.

At the risk of repeating myself, my original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

To put even a finer point on it, I have no interest in debating the merits of Manny's swing concepts with people who show no evidence of understanding them.  bph7 and lefty fall into that category.

If anyone else wants to better understand what Manny taught, I'm here and will do my best.

Steve

Steve

Ok, fair enough, in that case I strongly disagree with MDLT on the arms. I don't think he was close to correct. Seemed like a great guy and a great teacher, maybe you just aren't good at communicating his ideas?  Maybe there is a disconnect between his ideas and your ability to communicate them such that you aren't a good spokesperson?

What is correct then? Maybe we can learn something.
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#77 juststeve

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:05 AM

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 18 May 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

View PostLefty Light HItter, on 18 May 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

A few observations:

1.  People seem to associate with an instructor as if it were a gang or a club.  This is not limited to MDLT because you can find it with all of the instructors who are prominent here.  Everyone seems to want to be in someone's "camp."  I hit balls at a range where a guy teaches and I have yet to hear him in a lesson not mention MDLT or have a picture or an article or a book that he feels compelled to show the students and say, "this is my teacher."  You would think the guy is JC's right hand man or the patron saint of golf with how glowing I hear the guy talk about him and show off his picture.  What it doesn't to?  Doesn't help the students get better by saying, "well Manny told me this" or "when I was up to see Manny we did this."  

2.  As someone who always thought that I swung a baseball bat with my hands and forearms with no body emphasis I had to come to the conclusion that what I felt I was doing wasn't exactly what was going on.  Now for me I hit a ball best thinking of an arms/hands driven swing and not a body one, but that's clearly not everyone.  Arm swinging is not a god send to everyone nor is GGSwingTips very exaggerated rotation.  

3.  Telling someone to "swing down the target line" may work for someone who swings it way over the top, but it probably doesn't for someone who is stuck underneath.  The club head is already going out there for too long anyway.  Tell me to swing down the target line and I'll start shanking it quickly.

At the risk of repeating myself, my original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

To put even a finer point on it, I have no interest in debating the merits of Manny's swing concepts with people who show no evidence of understanding them.  bph7 and lefty fall into that category.

If anyone else wants to better understand what Manny taught, I'm here and will do my best.

Steve

Steve

Ok, fair enough, in that case I strongly disagree with MDLT on the arms. I don't think he was close to correct. Seemed like a great guy and a great teacher, maybe you just aren't good at communicating his ideas?  Maybe there is a disconnect between his ideas and your ability to communicate them such that you aren't a good spokesperson?

No one who  ever worked with Manny, or taken lessons from him, has ever suggested that I misunderstand his concepts or that I fail to communicate them accurately, but perhaps I do.  Given that you manifestly know nothing about what he taught, its a bit strange that you would be the only one to point it out. Such omniscience must be a great burden for you to carry.  

Steve

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#78 bph7

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:08 AM

View Postjuststeve, on 25 May 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 18 May 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

View PostLefty Light HItter, on 18 May 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

A few observations:

1.  People seem to associate with an instructor as if it were a gang or a club.  This is not limited to MDLT because you can find it with all of the instructors who are prominent here.  Everyone seems to want to be in someone's "camp."  I hit balls at a range where a guy teaches and I have yet to hear him in a lesson not mention MDLT or have a picture or an article or a book that he feels compelled to show the students and say, "this is my teacher."  You would think the guy is JC's right hand man or the patron saint of golf with how glowing I hear the guy talk about him and show off his picture.  What it doesn't to?  Doesn't help the students get better by saying, "well Manny told me this" or "when I was up to see Manny we did this."  

2.  As someone who always thought that I swung a baseball bat with my hands and forearms with no body emphasis I had to come to the conclusion that what I felt I was doing wasn't exactly what was going on.  Now for me I hit a ball best thinking of an arms/hands driven swing and not a body one, but that's clearly not everyone.  Arm swinging is not a god send to everyone nor is GGSwingTips very exaggerated rotation.  

3.  Telling someone to "swing down the target line" may work for someone who swings it way over the top, but it probably doesn't for someone who is stuck underneath.  The club head is already going out there for too long anyway.  Tell me to swing down the target line and I'll start shanking it quickly.

At the risk of repeating myself, my original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

To put even a finer point on it, I have no interest in debating the merits of Manny's swing concepts with people who show no evidence of understanding them.  bph7 and lefty fall into that category.

If anyone else wants to better understand what Manny taught, I'm here and will do my best.

Steve

Steve

Ok, fair enough, in that case I strongly disagree with MDLT on the arms. I don't think he was close to correct. Seemed like a great guy and a great teacher, maybe you just aren't good at communicating his ideas?  Maybe there is a disconnect between his ideas and your ability to communicate them such that you aren't a good spokesperson?

No one who  ever worked with Manny, or taken lessons from him, has ever suggested that I misunderstand his concepts or that I fail to communicate them accurately, but perhaps I do.  Given that you manifestly know nothing about what he taught, its a bit strange that you would be the only one to point it out. Such omniscience must be a great burden for you to carry.  

Steve

The omniscience is indeed a great burden to carry, but I carry it to help golfers from horrible advice.

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#79 Jasonic

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:19 AM

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 25 May 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 18 May 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

View PostLefty Light HItter, on 18 May 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

A few observations:

1.  People seem to associate with an instructor as if it were a gang or a club.  This is not limited to MDLT because you can find it with all of the instructors who are prominent here.  Everyone seems to want to be in someone's "camp."  I hit balls at a range where a guy teaches and I have yet to hear him in a lesson not mention MDLT or have a picture or an article or a book that he feels compelled to show the students and say, "this is my teacher."  You would think the guy is JC's right hand man or the patron saint of golf with how glowing I hear the guy talk about him and show off his picture.  What it doesn't to?  Doesn't help the students get better by saying, "well Manny told me this" or "when I was up to see Manny we did this."  

2.  As someone who always thought that I swung a baseball bat with my hands and forearms with no body emphasis I had to come to the conclusion that what I felt I was doing wasn't exactly what was going on.  Now for me I hit a ball best thinking of an arms/hands driven swing and not a body one, but that's clearly not everyone.  Arm swinging is not a god send to everyone nor is GGSwingTips very exaggerated rotation.  

3.  Telling someone to "swing down the target line" may work for someone who swings it way over the top, but it probably doesn't for someone who is stuck underneath.  The club head is already going out there for too long anyway.  Tell me to swing down the target line and I'll start shanking it quickly.

At the risk of repeating myself, my original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

To put even a finer point on it, I have no interest in debating the merits of Manny's swing concepts with people who show no evidence of understanding them.  bph7 and lefty fall into that category.

If anyone else wants to better understand what Manny taught, I'm here and will do my best.

Steve

Steve

Ok, fair enough, in that case I strongly disagree with MDLT on the arms. I don't think he was close to correct. Seemed like a great guy and a great teacher, maybe you just aren't good at communicating his ideas?  Maybe there is a disconnect between his ideas and your ability to communicate them such that you aren't a good spokesperson?

No one who  ever worked with Manny, or taken lessons from him, has ever suggested that I misunderstand his concepts or that I fail to communicate them accurately, but perhaps I do.  Given that you manifestly know nothing about what he taught, its a bit strange that you would be the only one to point it out. Such omniscience must be a great burden for you to carry.  

Steve

The omniscience is indeed a great burden to carry, but I carry it to help golfers from horrible advice.

I don't think you're helping anyone in this particular thread. Why don't you start your own since you know it all about the golf swing?
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#80 nohny noke

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:23 AM

Why should golfers trust you, bph7, and not MDLT?

One of you two has a proven track record of helping golfers.  The other we know next to nothing about- other than that your arguments, at least in this thread, are less than convincing.


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#81 bph7

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:29 AM

View Postnohny noke, on 25 May 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

Why should golfers trust you, bph7, and not MDLT?

One of you two has a proven track record of helping golfers.  The other we know next to nothing about- other than that your arguments, at least in this thread, are less than convincing.

I don't care who trusts who. Ignore me if you please. I'm also not really saying MDLT is wrong, but his "spokesman" definitely is.

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#82 bph7

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:32 AM

View PostGolfbeat, on 25 May 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 18 May 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

View PostLefty Light HItter, on 18 May 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

A few observations:

1.  People seem to associate with an instructor as if it were a gang or a club.  This is not limited to MDLT because you can find it with all of the instructors who are prominent here.  Everyone seems to want to be in someone's "camp."  I hit balls at a range where a guy teaches and I have yet to hear him in a lesson not mention MDLT or have a picture or an article or a book that he feels compelled to show the students and say, "this is my teacher."  You would think the guy is JC's right hand man or the patron saint of golf with how glowing I hear the guy talk about him and show off his picture.  What it doesn't to?  Doesn't help the students get better by saying, "well Manny told me this" or "when I was up to see Manny we did this."  

2.  As someone who always thought that I swung a baseball bat with my hands and forearms with no body emphasis I had to come to the conclusion that what I felt I was doing wasn't exactly what was going on.  Now for me I hit a ball best thinking of an arms/hands driven swing and not a body one, but that's clearly not everyone.  Arm swinging is not a god send to everyone nor is GGSwingTips very exaggerated rotation.  

3.  Telling someone to "swing down the target line" may work for someone who swings it way over the top, but it probably doesn't for someone who is stuck underneath.  The club head is already going out there for too long anyway.  Tell me to swing down the target line and I'll start shanking it quickly.

At the risk of repeating myself, my original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

To put even a finer point on it, I have no interest in debating the merits of Manny's swing concepts with people who show no evidence of understanding them.  bph7 and lefty fall into that category.

If anyone else wants to better understand what Manny taught, I'm here and will do my best.

Steve

Steve

Ok, fair enough, in that case I strongly disagree with MDLT on the arms. I don't think he was close to correct. Seemed like a great guy and a great teacher, maybe you just aren't good at communicating his ideas?  Maybe there is a disconnect between his ideas and your ability to communicate them such that you aren't a good spokesperson?

What is correct then? Maybe we can learn something.

Golfbeat, cmon, you know the only way is the tathata-sf-MDLT-RIT combo. That's the key to success.

22

#83 jut111

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:35 AM

Here is the disconnect IMHO.  Swing the arms is such a vague description that it is likely to be interpreted and implemented in countless different ways by golfers.

Some might get it right away and have success.  Others might take their interpretation and drive themselves batty cause the results are awful.  I have no doubt that MDLT was a great teacher and under his tutelage was successful in guiding students towards the correct interpretation.

On the flip side, I'd wager that you're more likely to fail miserably then succeed going at it alone with "swinging the arms" as your primary goal.

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#84 Jasonic

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:36 AM

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

View PostGolfbeat, on 25 May 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 18 May 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

View PostLefty Light HItter, on 18 May 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

A few observations:

1.  People seem to associate with an instructor as if it were a gang or a club.  This is not limited to MDLT because you can find it with all of the instructors who are prominent here.  Everyone seems to want to be in someone's "camp."  I hit balls at a range where a guy teaches and I have yet to hear him in a lesson not mention MDLT or have a picture or an article or a book that he feels compelled to show the students and say, "this is my teacher."  You would think the guy is JC's right hand man or the patron saint of golf with how glowing I hear the guy talk about him and show off his picture.  What it doesn't to?  Doesn't help the students get better by saying, "well Manny told me this" or "when I was up to see Manny we did this."  

2.  As someone who always thought that I swung a baseball bat with my hands and forearms with no body emphasis I had to come to the conclusion that what I felt I was doing wasn't exactly what was going on.  Now for me I hit a ball best thinking of an arms/hands driven swing and not a body one, but that's clearly not everyone.  Arm swinging is not a god send to everyone nor is GGSwingTips very exaggerated rotation.  

3.  Telling someone to "swing down the target line" may work for someone who swings it way over the top, but it probably doesn't for someone who is stuck underneath.  The club head is already going out there for too long anyway.  Tell me to swing down the target line and I'll start shanking it quickly.

At the risk of repeating myself, my original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

To put even a finer point on it, I have no interest in debating the merits of Manny's swing concepts with people who show no evidence of understanding them.  bph7 and lefty fall into that category.

If anyone else wants to better understand what Manny taught, I'm here and will do my best.

Steve

Steve

Ok, fair enough, in that case I strongly disagree with MDLT on the arms. I don't think he was close to correct. Seemed like a great guy and a great teacher, maybe you just aren't good at communicating his ideas?  Maybe there is a disconnect between his ideas and your ability to communicate them such that you aren't a good spokesperson?

What is correct then? Maybe we can learn something.

Golfbeat, cmon, you know the only way is the tathata-sf-MDLT-RIT combo. That's the key to success.

The way to really prove your point is to criticize then not give advice when asked and have a snarky, sarcastic response. Got it.
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#85 Golfbeat

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 12:12 PM

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

View PostGolfbeat, on 25 May 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 18 May 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

View PostLefty Light HItter, on 18 May 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

A few observations:

1.  People seem to associate with an instructor as if it were a gang or a club.  This is not limited to MDLT because you can find it with all of the instructors who are prominent here.  Everyone seems to want to be in someone's "camp."  I hit balls at a range where a guy teaches and I have yet to hear him in a lesson not mention MDLT or have a picture or an article or a book that he feels compelled to show the students and say, "this is my teacher."  You would think the guy is JC's right hand man or the patron saint of golf with how glowing I hear the guy talk about him and show off his picture.  What it doesn't to?  Doesn't help the students get better by saying, "well Manny told me this" or "when I was up to see Manny we did this."  

2.  As someone who always thought that I swung a baseball bat with my hands and forearms with no body emphasis I had to come to the conclusion that what I felt I was doing wasn't exactly what was going on.  Now for me I hit a ball best thinking of an arms/hands driven swing and not a body one, but that's clearly not everyone.  Arm swinging is not a god send to everyone nor is GGSwingTips very exaggerated rotation.  

3.  Telling someone to "swing down the target line" may work for someone who swings it way over the top, but it probably doesn't for someone who is stuck underneath.  The club head is already going out there for too long anyway.  Tell me to swing down the target line and I'll start shanking it quickly.

At the risk of repeating myself, my original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

To put even a finer point on it, I have no interest in debating the merits of Manny's swing concepts with people who show no evidence of understanding them.  bph7 and lefty fall into that category.

If anyone else wants to better understand what Manny taught, I'm here and will do my best.

Steve

Steve

Ok, fair enough, in that case I strongly disagree with MDLT on the arms. I don't think he was close to correct. Seemed like a great guy and a great teacher, maybe you just aren't good at communicating his ideas?  Maybe there is a disconnect between his ideas and your ability to communicate them such that you aren't a good spokesperson?

What is correct then? Maybe we can learn something.

Golfbeat, cmon, you know the only way is the tathata-sf-MDLT-RIT combo. That's the key to success.

Well, enlighten me/us. What is the correct way to swing the club? Don't just say what not to do. You must be a +3, at least, if you know it all so well. So, share this extra-ordinary knowledge you possess. That would be useful instead of unloading your sarcasm on everyone.

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#86 Shilgy

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 12:23 PM

Too many seem to think that "swing the arms" means the body does not move. If you do not pay attention to the whole of the De La Torre teaching it sounds wrong. AS DOES ANY OTHER INSTRUCTION. On the other hand...swing the club over your right shoulder with the hands and swing it back over the left shoulder with the arms and the body MUST respond to the swinging action makes a lot more sense. No one ever said the body does not move. But it does not initiate the movement but is simultaneous with the swinging motion.
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#87 ricklinens

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 12:48 PM

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

Ok, fair enough, in that case I strongly disagree with MDLT on the arms. I don't think he was close to correct.

View Postbph7, on 25 May 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

I don't care who trusts who. Ignore me if you please. I'm also not really saying MDLT is wrong, but his "spokesman" definitely is.

Confusing?
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#88 ball game

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 01:31 PM

Steve,  

You have helped me tremendously in my MDLT swing journey.   It is and will be the way I swing the golf club.  Do not allow a few negative posts prevent you from helping others on this site.  

There are many ways to swing a golf club.   They all can work.  MDLT's method works great for me.  Combining different methods..... that is the trap that many people fall into.  I appreciate Steve's insight into what Mr de la Torre personally taught him.

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#89 1puttEagle

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 01:44 PM

I came back in here to see if Steve had anything to say about my last post, and all I see is bph7 spoiling another thread with his usual antics.  

Steve, please ignore him.  Your advice is precious to me.  I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate you taking time to help those of us who are learning the MDLT method.

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#90 Patrick_O

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 02:29 PM

Just purchased John Hayes' book as a complement to Understanding the Golf Swing. Really like "No. 100 Why does the head move backward during the forward swing?"

Edited by Patrick_O, 25 May 2017 - 02:30 PM.

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