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MDLT Thoughts On Using The Arms


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#31 1puttEagle

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 07:42 PM

Steve,  I find that "swing the whole club towards the target with the arms" means that the arms have to initially go down, since the ball is on the ground.  I suppose this is the point of the drill where you swing the club head towards the right shoulder with the hands, then return it to the ball slowly.  This gives me the feeling of what the arms need to do to get the club to the ball, and they need to initially go down towards the ball then forward to the target.  Do you agree that is what they do?


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#32 juststeve

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 08:58 AM

View Post1puttEagle, on 16 May 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

Steve,  I find that "swing the whole club towards the target with the arms" means that the arms have to initially go down, since the ball is on the ground.  I suppose this is the point of the drill where you swing the club head towards the right shoulder with the hands, then return it to the ball slowly.  This gives me the feeling of what the arms need to do to get the club to the ball, and they need to initially go down towards the ball then forward to the target.  Do you agree that is what they do?

1putt:

The arms do go down but that's not something you should pay attention to.  You focus should be on the club, which you swing with your arms, on an arc, from over your trail shoulder, to over your lead shoulder, brushing the turf on the way.  That swing should be thought of as one continuous motion from start to finish.  When I first met Manny he made me demonstrate that I could do that before he introduced a golf ball to the process.  Even today I do the best I can to ignore the ball and just swing the club from one shoulder to the other.

In the direction of the target just means that the arc is tangent to the line of flight at the point of impact.  Proper alignment virtually assures that, not some deliberate manipulation.

If you move the club in that manner with your arms merely letting everything else respond naturally, you will be on the right track.

Steve.

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#33 juststeve

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:05 AM

View Postgames, on 16 May 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 16 May 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

My original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

Steve

Steve, I appreciate your expertise as the resident GolfWRX expert on MDLT's teachings.  
Question:  What separates Manny's "arms-led" swing versus the feel of a shoulder-led swing?

As an aside, one image I like to equate with MDLT is the little Japanese toy drum (den-den daiko) made famous in the ending fight scene of Karate Kid II.
For some reason this image reasonates with me...

I don't know what a "shoulder-led swing" feels like to you, so I can't answer the question about feel.  I do know that the only way you can return the club to the ball from the end of the back swing is by moving your arms.  Disregarding feels, what Manny meant by swinging the club forward with the arms was to use the part of the appendage, between the shoulder joint and the elbow, of both arms.  Arms swinging from the shoulders with passive shoulders responding, not the other way around.

Steve

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#34 vgidda

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:59 AM

"Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club."


This is the best part of your post.  It doesn't matter your teaching/swing style, starting with small swings and working up is the REAL DEAL.

The golf swing is SIMPLE  matter what style you use.  Remember SIMPLE DOES NOT MEAN EASY.

Thanks for you great post!

Edited by vgidda, 17 May 2017 - 10:01 AM.


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#35 1puttEagle

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 08:19 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 17 May 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

View Post1puttEagle, on 16 May 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

Steve,  I find that "swing the whole club towards the target with the arms" means that the arms have to initially go down, since the ball is on the ground.  I suppose this is the point of the drill where you swing the club head towards the right shoulder with the hands, then return it to the ball slowly.  This gives me the feeling of what the arms need to do to get the club to the ball, and they need to initially go down towards the ball then forward to the target.  Do you agree that is what they do?

1putt:

The arms do go down but that's not something you should pay attention to.  You focus should be on the club, which you swing with your arms, on an arc, from over your trail shoulder, to over your lead shoulder, brushing the turf on the way.  That swing should be thought of as one continuous motion from start to finish.  When I first met Manny he made me demonstrate that I could do that before he introduced a golf ball to the process.  Even today I do the best I can to ignore the ball and just swing the club from one shoulder to the other.

In the direction of the target just means that the arc is tangent to the line of flight at the point of impact.  Proper alignment virtually assures that, not some deliberate manipulation.

If you move the club in that manner with your arms merely letting everything else respond naturally, you will be on the right track.

Steve.

Thanks Steve.  Your advice is alway great!  "That swing should be thought of as one continuous motion from start to finish."  I have to remember to keep it simple.  Especially when playing.

As I'm learning it though, "You focus should be on the club, which you swing with your arms" makes me think a little about my arms, to make sure I'm swinging the club with them.  I guess I should just confirm that I am, and then not worry about it.

I also recall you saying that the swing circle needs to be maintained (or something like that).  Since Manny says the plane is from clubhead to shoulders, does that mean my swing center is between my shoulders?

Thanks, as always, for your thoughts.


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#36 juststeve

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 09:43 AM

1 putt:

I never heard Manny use the term swing plane except when talking about someone else's ideas.  He didn't teach in those terms.

Manny did encourage his students to maintain a constant swing center and a constant radius from the swing center to the butt of the club.  The purpose  is to move the club on a consistent arc which promotes the club reaching its low point in a consistent place, shout after shot.  Do that and fat and thin shots are largely eliminated.

Most people who have been taught by Manny feel their swing center in the vicinity  of their sternum.

Keeping the swing center constant involves the most controversial of Manny's teachings, that dealing with weight distribution.  Manny taught us to maintain and equal distribution of weight on the right and left foot both at address and at the end of the back swing.  The weight then moves to the front foot as a reaction to the forward motion of the club.  No weight shift back, no deliberate weight shift forwards. Doing that will promote a constant swing center and a consistent swing bottom.  Manny got resistance on this point from a lot of fine instructors but never deviated from the teaching.

Steve

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#37 dlygrisse

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 09:51 AM

Steve, thank you for your continued support and first hand knowledge for the MDLT method.  I like many people "get" what the point of this thread was no matter if someone tried to derail it.
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#38 chippa13

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 10:21 AM

The weight shift poinit is interesting. I've stolen tidbits of the method from the MDLT thread and once I adopted the club over the back shoulder feel then other things just fell into place that worked for me. Often, my swing trigger is to put a hair more weight on the front foot to keep from shifting weight back in the backswing, basically the opposite of Stenson. It may not be the best idea but as far as keeping me from any possible swaying or staying back issues it has really helped. Gone are the strikes off the back foot where the front foot comes up.

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#39 bph7

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 11:29 AM

View Postjuststeve, on 12 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

On other threads I have noticed that some have difficulty understanding what it means to swing the club forward with the arms, or to actually do it.  I hope my thoughts on thew subject will assist at least some of you.

An Observation.  Most everyone is able to move the club from over their trail shoulder to over their lead shoulder in the course of making a swing.  If you are doing that YOU ARE ALREADY SWINGING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS.  If you don't believe me do an experiment.  Swing the club back over your trail shoulder, and then try to get the club over your leads shoulder without moving your arms.  You can't do it.  You can't move the club from over one shoulder to over the other with your hands, your wrists, your shoulders or your hips.  You are already moving the club with your arms.  You just need to keep that while eliminating things that aren't your arms.

Start with you hands.  Their function is merely to hold the club in the forward swing.  Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club.

Next focus on your wrists,  The hinge on the back swing and unhinge in the forward swing but they do so passively, as a result of gravity and the momentum of the swing.  Again work up from little to big swings allowing the hinging and unhinging to be purely a response.  No effort to snap the wrists, no effort to apply additional speed with the wrist, no tension, just swing the club from one side to the other and let the wrists react.

Eliminate interference from the forearms.  Your trail arm will extend through the shot, but it is a reaction to the speed of the arms.  Eliminate any hint of muscular effort to extend the trail arm, trust thew swinging motion to do it automatically.

The same notion applies to eliminating interference from  the shoulder, the hips, the weight shift,  etc.  When you are in fact moving the club from one side to the other, without allowing other body parts to interfere, you will be swinging the club forward with your arms, just as Manny taught.

Steve

As promised here are my thoughts:

You can absolutely "swing the club over your left shoulder" and still be in an awful position. I can do this with either the club parallel or perpendicular to the target line at the top. So to the extent you consider this to be "advice" (which, you should not) it's vague at best and harmful at worse.

You absolutely can get the club from the trail shoulder to over the lead shoulder without moving your arms if you really want to, its not simple but it is absolutely possible with a little understanding of arm/shoulder movements.

The wrist hinge is the single most important source of power, so to the extent that the hands are supposed to be "quiet", this is absolutely not the case.

Every good player rotates their forearms hard, this has been proven with 3D tech.

As for what is meant by "swinging", I still have no idea, but to suggest the handle and club head are moving at anywhere near the same speed is laughably wrong.

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#40 chippa13

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 11:45 AM

Swing a club from over your back shoulder to over your lead shoulder around a fixed point on your body and your forearms will naturally rotate. It is physically impossible for them not to. Steve isn't saying that it won't happen, only that it will happen as a natural course of the swing and doesn't need to be a conscious effort.

Edited by chippa13, 18 May 2017 - 11:46 AM.


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#41 Lefty Light HItter

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 12:25 PM

A few observations:

1.  People seem to associate with an instructor as if it were a gang or a club.  This is not limited to MDLT because you can find it with all of the instructors who are prominent here.  Everyone seems to want to be in someone's "camp."  I hit balls at a range where a guy teaches and I have yet to hear him in a lesson not mention MDLT or have a picture or an article or a book that he feels compelled to show the students and say, "this is my teacher."  You would think the guy is JC's right hand man or the patron saint of golf with how glowing I hear the guy talk about him and show off his picture.  What it doesn't to?  Doesn't help the students get better by saying, "well Manny told me this" or "when I was up to see Manny we did this."  

2.  As someone who always thought that I swung a baseball bat with my hands and forearms with no body emphasis I had to come to the conclusion that what I felt I was doing wasn't exactly what was going on.  Now for me I hit a ball best thinking of an arms/hands driven swing and not a body one, but that's clearly not everyone.  Arm swinging is not a god send to everyone nor is GGSwingTips very exaggerated rotation.  

3.  Telling someone to "swing down the target line" may work for someone who swings it way over the top, but it probably doesn't for someone who is stuck underneath.  The club head is already going out there for too long anyway.  Tell me to swing down the target line and I'll start shanking it quickly.

Edited by Lefty Light HItter, 18 May 2017 - 12:26 PM.

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#42 chippa13

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 12:29 PM

That and $2 gets me a cup of coffee.

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#43 juststeve

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 01:54 PM

 Lefty Light HItter, on 18 May 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

A few observations:

1.  People seem to associate with an instructor as if it were a gang or a club.  This is not limited to MDLT because you can find it with all of the instructors who are prominent here.  Everyone seems to want to be in someone's "camp."  I hit balls at a range where a guy teaches and I have yet to hear him in a lesson not mention MDLT or have a picture or an article or a book that he feels compelled to show the students and say, "this is my teacher."  You would think the guy is JC's right hand man or the patron saint of golf with how glowing I hear the guy talk about him and show off his picture.  What it doesn't to?  Doesn't help the students get better by saying, "well Manny told me this" or "when I was up to see Manny we did this."  

2.  As someone who always thought that I swung a baseball bat with my hands and forearms with no body emphasis I had to come to the conclusion that what I felt I was doing wasn't exactly what was going on.  Now for me I hit a ball best thinking of an arms/hands driven swing and not a body one, but that's clearly not everyone.  Arm swinging is not a god send to everyone nor is GGSwingTips very exaggerated rotation.  

3.  Telling someone to "swing down the target line" may work for someone who swings it way over the top, but it probably doesn't for someone who is stuck underneath.  The club head is already going out there for too long anyway.  Tell me to swing down the target line and I'll start shanking it quickly.

At the risk of repeating myself, my original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

To put even a finer point on it, I have no interest in debating the merits of Manny's swing concepts with people who show no evidence of understanding them.  bph7 and lefty fall into that category.

If anyone else wants to better understand what Manny taught, I'm here and will do my best.

Steve

Steve

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#44 Lefty Light HItter

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 02:07 PM

I can't debate his swing method because i know nothing about it.  I wasn't telling you it was wrong, only that he seems to have a cult like following (as do other instructors) and to caution against the idea of swinging "down the target line" because the club has to turn left or right depending on which side you line up from.  I'm an arm swinging son of a b****, no hating.  

I just hear a lot of "Manny says" when I read or hear about his method which is not what I hear from _____ (fill in any other big name instructor you want here).  

Sorry for hijacking your thread.
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#45 juststeve

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 02:26 PM

 Lefty Light HItter, on 18 May 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

I can't debate his swing method because i know nothing about it.  I wasn't telling you it was wrong, only that he seems to have a cult like following (as do other instructors) and to caution against the idea of swinging "down the target line" because the club has to turn left or right depending on which side you line up from.  I'm an arm swinging son of a b****, no hating.  

I just hear a lot of "Manny says" when I read or hear about his method which is not what I hear from _____ (fill in any other big name instructor you want here).  

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

No caution about "swinging down the line" is required.  Neither Manny nor I have ever suggested "swinging down the line".  Manny taught me and I have passed on the idea of swinging the club on an arc in the direction of the target, but never "swinging down the line?.  Swinging down the line can cause problems, swinging on an arc in the direction of the target is nearly universal among good players.

Steve


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#46 Terry Gold

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:59 AM

 juststeve, on 16 May 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

 nohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

 bph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.
pearls before swing
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#47 juststeve

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:39 AM

 Terry Gold, on 19 May 2017 - 05:59 AM, said:

 juststeve, on 16 May 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

 nohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

 bph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.
pearls before swing
Steve
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Terry:

Thank you for quoting me.  It brought a typo I made to my attention, which I want to correct.  I wrote "pearls before swing" but meant to write "pearls before swine" a Biblical reference that makes a lot more sense in the context of this discussion.  I don't know what pearls before swing would mean.

Steve

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#48 jimbo1962

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:11 AM

Dear Steve

Thank you for your outstanding contribution to this topic
In reference to swinging in an arc to the arms after contact with the ball swing left  and over the right shoulder
John Hayes has a golf drill were he places a shaft to your left side in an upright position so you do not swing left.
Does he do this to stop an over the top move


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#49 juststeve

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 11:15 AM

 jimbo1962, on 19 May 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

Dear Steve

Thank you for your outstanding contribution to this topic
In reference to swinging in an arc to the arms after contact with the ball swing left  and over the right shoulder
John Hayes has a golf drill were he places a shaft to your left side in an upright position so you do not swing left.
Does he do this to stop an over the top move

I know who John Hayes is but am not familiar with the drill you are describing.  Assuming a right handed golfer the club must swing left after impact.  If it didn't it would be off the arc after impact or off the plane as others would describe it and would not really be swinging.  .  John Hayes knows this so he isn't teaching people not to swing the club left after impact.

The swing is a titled circle.  Horizontally the club swing toward the ball from inside the target line, strikes the ball, and continues back to the inside of the line until it finishes over the lead shoulder.  A great illustration of this is in Hogan's Five Lesson's, the drawing of him swinging under the pane of glass.  That's a picture of a guy swinging the club around a steady swing center on a tilted circle.  Try to hold that picture in your mind the next time you practice.

Steve

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#50 Shilgy

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 12:10 PM

 juststeve, on 19 May 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

 Terry Gold, on 19 May 2017 - 05:59 AM, said:

 juststeve, on 16 May 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

 nohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

 bph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.
pearls before swing
Steve
Impeccable response, on any level.

Terry:

Thank you for quoting me.  It brought a typo I made to my attention, which I want to correct.  I wrote "pearls before swing" but meant to write "pearls before swine" a Biblical reference that makes a lot more sense in the context of this discussion.  I don't know what pearls before swing would mean.

Steve
And here I was thinking you had made a witty intentional golf saying of that proverb. :)

  For those of you attempting to use the MDLT method please listen to Steve. I had a couple group lessons with Mr De La Torre and Steve says things exactly, precisely may be a better word, as Manuel would have said them.

  For those of you that feel the teachings are irrelevant to modern golf I would say you are not paying attention.  The body for instance does move-in response to the movement of the arms.  

Here is a short video of a player taught the MDLT method practically from when he was in diapers.

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#51 SuperPunch

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 01:43 PM

 bph7, on 18 May 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

 juststeve, on 12 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

On other threads I have noticed that some have difficulty understanding what it means to swing the club forward with the arms, or to actually do it.  I hope my thoughts on thew subject will assist at least some of you.

An Observation.  Most everyone is able to move the club from over their trail shoulder to over their lead shoulder in the course of making a swing.  If you are doing that YOU ARE ALREADY SWINGING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS.  If you don't believe me do an experiment.  Swing the club back over your trail shoulder, and then try to get the club over your leads shoulder without moving your arms.  You can't do it.  You can't move the club from over one shoulder to over the other with your hands, your wrists, your shoulders or your hips.  You are already moving the club with your arms.  You just need to keep that while eliminating things that aren't your arms.

Start with you hands.  Their function is merely to hold the club in the forward swing.  Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club.

Next focus on your wrists,  The hinge on the back swing and unhinge in the forward swing but they do so passively, as a result of gravity and the momentum of the swing.  Again work up from little to big swings allowing the hinging and unhinging to be purely a response.  No effort to snap the wrists, no effort to apply additional speed with the wrist, no tension, just swing the club from one side to the other and let the wrists react.

Eliminate interference from the forearms.  Your trail arm will extend through the shot, but it is a reaction to the speed of the arms.  Eliminate any hint of muscular effort to extend the trail arm, trust thew swinging motion to do it automatically.

The same notion applies to eliminating interference from  the shoulder, the hips, the weight shift,  etc.  When you are in fact moving the club from one side to the other, without allowing other body parts to interfere, you will be swinging the club forward with your arms, just as Manny taught.

Steve

As promised here are my thoughts:

You can absolutely "swing the club over your left shoulder" and still be in an awful position. I can do this with either the club parallel or perpendicular to the target line at the top. So to the extent you consider this to be "advice" (which, you should not) it's vague at best and harmful at worse.

You absolutely can get the club from the trail shoulder to over the lead shoulder without moving your arms if you really want to, its not simple but it is absolutely possible with a little understanding of arm/shoulder movements.

The wrist hinge is the single most important source of power, so to the extent that the hands are supposed to be "quiet", this is absolutely not the case.

Every good player rotates their forearms hard, this has been proven with 3D tech.

As for what is meant by "swinging", I still have no idea, but to suggest the handle and club head are moving at anywhere near the same speed is laughably wrong.

This was what we were waiting for!? Thank you. This was fun. Lets break it down.

Your first thought, you say you can swing the club over your left shoulder and still be in an awful position, yet at the bottom of the post admit you don't know what is meant by "swinging." So I'm going to give this one an incomplete.

Second thought, you state you can get the club from your trail shoulder to your front shoulder without moving your arms "if you really want to, its not simple but it is absolutely possible." My response is huh? In a golf swing it's not possible, but it's a funny picture.

Third thought, you say how the wrist hinge is the most important source of power. Since you aren't familiar with MDLT (yet still feel the need to argue a Hall of Famer's method), he never said the wrists don't hinge. They just do on their own, naturally. Look at Purdy's swing above, Tommy Aaron, they all have a hinge in their wrists, they just aren't consciously doing it. So your point, missed the point.

Fourth thought, 3D tech proved that every good player rotates their forearms hard. Huh? Again, you've missed the point, because you're arguing about something you don't know about. The forearms will rotate, and depending on how fast the club is swinging, they'll rotate hard, just like the 3D proven "good" players.

Your last statement, this one is the best. You basically say you have no idea what you're talking about relative to MDLT, yet feel to be an expert and tell us why it's wrong. If you don't know what MDLT teaches in the literal term of swinging the club, then you don't have anywhere to start. His swing may not be right for you, but Manuel De La Torre knows more than you do.

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#52 DeadStick

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 02:29 PM

 SuperPunch, on 19 May 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

 bph7, on 18 May 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

 juststeve, on 12 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

On other threads I have noticed that some have difficulty understanding what it means to swing the club forward with the arms, or to actually do it.  I hope my thoughts on thew subject will assist at least some of you.

An Observation.  Most everyone is able to move the club from over their trail shoulder to over their lead shoulder in the course of making a swing.  If you are doing that YOU ARE ALREADY SWINGING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS.  If you don't believe me do an experiment.  Swing the club back over your trail shoulder, and then try to get the club over your leads shoulder without moving your arms.  You can't do it.  You can't move the club from over one shoulder to over the other with your hands, your wrists, your shoulders or your hips.  You are already moving the club with your arms.  You just need to keep that while eliminating things that aren't your arms.

Start with you hands.  Their function is merely to hold the club in the forward swing.  Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club.

Next focus on your wrists,  The hinge on the back swing and unhinge in the forward swing but they do so passively, as a result of gravity and the momentum of the swing.  Again work up from little to big swings allowing the hinging and unhinging to be purely a response.  No effort to snap the wrists, no effort to apply additional speed with the wrist, no tension, just swing the club from one side to the other and let the wrists react.

Eliminate interference from the forearms.  Your trail arm will extend through the shot, but it is a reaction to the speed of the arms.  Eliminate any hint of muscular effort to extend the trail arm, trust thew swinging motion to do it automatically.

The same notion applies to eliminating interference from  the shoulder, the hips, the weight shift,  etc.  When you are in fact moving the club from one side to the other, without allowing other body parts to interfere, you will be swinging the club forward with your arms, just as Manny taught.

Steve

As promised here are my thoughts:

You can absolutely "swing the club over your left shoulder" and still be in an awful position. I can do this with either the club parallel or perpendicular to the target line at the top. So to the extent you consider this to be "advice" (which, you should not) it's vague at best and harmful at worse.

You absolutely can get the club from the trail shoulder to over the lead shoulder without moving your arms if you really want to, its not simple but it is absolutely possible with a little understanding of arm/shoulder movements.

The wrist hinge is the single most important source of power, so to the extent that the hands are supposed to be "quiet", this is absolutely not the case.

Every good player rotates their forearms hard, this has been proven with 3D tech.

As for what is meant by "swinging", I still have no idea, but to suggest the handle and club head are moving at anywhere near the same speed is laughably wrong.

This was what we were waiting for!? Thank you. This was fun. Lets break it down.

Your first thought, you say you can swing the club over your left shoulder and still be in an awful position, yet at the bottom of the post admit you don't know what is meant by "swinging." So I'm going to give this one an incomplete.

Second thought, you state you can get the club from your trail shoulder to your front shoulder without moving your arms "if you really want to, its not simple but it is absolutely possible." My response is huh? In a golf swing it's not possible, but it's a funny picture.

Third thought, you say how the wrist hinge is the most important source of power. Since you aren't familiar with MDLT (yet still feel the need to argue a Hall of Famer's method), he never said the wrists don't hinge. They just do on their own, naturally. Look at Purdy's swing above, Tommy Aaron, they all have a hinge in their wrists, they just aren't consciously doing it. So your point, missed the point.

Fourth thought, 3D tech proved that every good player rotates their forearms hard. Huh? Again, you've missed the point, because you're arguing about something you don't know about. The forearms will rotate, and depending on how fast the club is swinging, they'll rotate hard, just like the 3D proven "good" players.

Your last statement, this one is the best. You basically say you have no idea what you're talking about relative to MDLT, yet feel to be an expert and tell us why it's wrong. If you don't know what MDLT teaches in the literal term of swinging the club, then you don't have anywhere to start. His swing may not be right for you, but Manuel De La Torre knows more than you do.

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I've purchased and read MDLT's book a couple of times.

That said: when bph7 says "to suggest the handle and club head are moving at anywhere near the same speed is laughably wrong," I'd like to hear you or juststeve talk more about why MDLT makes that statement about the handle and club head moving at the same speed, because any rational observer can tell you that the clubhead moves at a much higher velocity than the handle in a typical golf swing.

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#53 SuperPunch

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 02:59 PM

Honestly, I don't have the book on me to give the exact quote, nor do I want you to think I'm anywhere near an expert on all of this. That is Steve's department and some others, but not me. I'd consider myself more of a student. But I do get frustrated when people disparage MDLT's teachings without even trying to understand them in the first place.

With that said, in terms of the handle and the club head, if it's a true swinging motion, they'll be moving at the same rate. The whole club will be. If they're not, then it's most likely leveraging the club, which is a killer in the MDLT swing. For me personally, I think of this mostly when I start my backswing to try and keep me from leveraging.

If you look at the Purdy swing above, I think they are moving at the same rate, but because the club head is traveling a longer distance, it'll appear more that its rate is much faster than the handle.

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#54 juststeve

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 03:23 PM

Dead Stick:

I can't improve on what SuperPunch said, except to point out that "rate" refers to acceleration, not velocity.  .  The club heads moves faster than the handle because it is further from the center of rotation, and to some extent because of the release of the wrist c0ck through impact.    The intention to swing the whole cub to the finish is to reduce deceleration of the hands and flipping. Both ends of the club are being accelerated in the same direction and at the same time.   The uncocking of the wrists is irresistible if you are swinging the whole club, on an arc, toward the target.  

Does the butt end in fact slow down as the head takes off?  I think so but you're screwed if you try to slow the handle down intentionally.  Don't do intentionally that which is automatic.  

Steve

Steve

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#55 DeadStick

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 03:26 PM

thanks guys :)


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#56 birly-shirly

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:52 PM

 bph7, on 18 May 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

 juststeve, on 12 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

On other threads I have noticed that some have difficulty understanding what it means to swing the club forward with the arms, or to actually do it.  I hope my thoughts on thew subject will assist at least some of you.

An Observation.  Most everyone is able to move the club from over their trail shoulder to over their lead shoulder in the course of making a swing.  If you are doing that YOU ARE ALREADY SWINGING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS.  If you don't believe me do an experiment.  Swing the club back over your trail shoulder, and then try to get the club over your leads shoulder without moving your arms.  You can't do it.  You can't move the club from over one shoulder to over the other with your hands, your wrists, your shoulders or your hips.  You are already moving the club with your arms.  You just need to keep that while eliminating things that aren't your arms.

Start with you hands.  Their function is merely to hold the club in the forward swing.  Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club.

Next focus on your wrists,  The hinge on the back swing and unhinge in the forward swing but they do so passively, as a result of gravity and the momentum of the swing.  Again work up from little to big swings allowing the hinging and unhinging to be purely a response.  No effort to snap the wrists, no effort to apply additional speed with the wrist, no tension, just swing the club from one side to the other and let the wrists react.

Eliminate interference from the forearms.  Your trail arm will extend through the shot, but it is a reaction to the speed of the arms.  Eliminate any hint of muscular effort to extend the trail arm, trust thew swinging motion to do it automatically.

The same notion applies to eliminating interference from  the shoulder, the hips, the weight shift,  etc.  When you are in fact moving the club from one side to the other, without allowing other body parts to interfere, you will be swinging the club forward with your arms, just as Manny taught.

Steve

As promised here are my thoughts:

You can absolutely "swing the club over your left shoulder" and still be in an awful position. I can do this with either the club parallel or perpendicular to the target line at the top. So to the extent you consider this to be "advice" (which, you should not) it's vague at best and harmful at worse.

You absolutely can get the club from the trail shoulder to over the lead shoulder without moving your arms if you really want to, its not simple but it is absolutely possible with a little understanding of arm/shoulder movements.

The wrist hinge is the single most important source of power, so to the extent that the hands are supposed to be "quiet", this is absolutely not the case.

Every good player rotates their forearms hard, this has been proven with 3D tech.

As for what is meant by "swinging", I still have no idea, but to suggest the handle and club head are moving at anywhere near the same speed is laughably wrong.

I would like to see the evidence that

"wrist hinge is the single most important source of power " if this is claiming that the wrists actually generate and not just transmit force.

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#57 jimbo1962

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 04:16 AM

Steve
Thank you for your answer much appreciated
I now have a visual concept to work with it has helped me greatly




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#58 johnnymac2201

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 01:32 AM

 bph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.
Amazing how we have someone complaining about advice from MDLT, one of the finest instructors ever, that is being passed on by one of his long time students, who is still a plus handicapper even though he's over 60. Seems like he has a funny idea of what "making golfers worse" means. I'd avoid any bph7 advice at all costs.

Just want to say thanks to Steve for all of the wisdom he keeps passing on in this forum.

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#59 MikeG

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 10:57 PM

 juststeve, on 12 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

On other threads I have noticed that some have difficulty understanding what it means to swing the club forward with the arms, or to actually do it.  I hope my thoughts on thew subject will assist at least some of you.

An Observation.  Most everyone is able to move the club from over their trail shoulder to over their lead shoulder in the course of making a swing.  If you are doing that YOU ARE ALREADY SWINGING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS.  If you don't believe me do an experiment.  Swing the club back over your trail shoulder, and then try to get the club over your leads shoulder without moving your arms.  You can't do it.  You can't move the club from over one shoulder to over the other with your hands, your wrists, your shoulders or your hips.  You are already moving the club with your arms.  You just need to keep that while eliminating things that aren't your arms.

Start with you hands.  Their function is merely to hold the club in the forward swing.  Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club.

Next focus on your wrists,  The hinge on the back swing and unhinge in the forward swing but they do so passively, as a result of gravity and the momentum of the swing.  Again work up from little to big swings allowing the hinging and unhinging to be purely a response.  No effort to snap the wrists, no effort to apply additional speed with the wrist, no tension, just swing the club from one side to the other and let the wrists react.

Eliminate interference from the forearms.  Your trail arm will extend through the shot, but it is a reaction to the speed of the arms.  Eliminate any hint of muscular effort to extend the trail arm, trust thew swinging motion to do it automatically.

The same notion applies to eliminating interference from  the shoulder, the hips, the weight shift,  etc.  When you are in fact moving the club from one side to the other, without allowing other body parts to interfere, you will be swinging the club forward with your arms, just as Manny taught.

Steve

Great summary Steve. The thing that always threw me off with the MDLT swing was the hands leading the backswing and the upper arms leading the forward swing. That transition always messed me up. Be that as it may, good job on the recap.

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#60 juststeve

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 09:25 AM

 MikeG, on 21 May 2017 - 10:57 PM, said:

 juststeve, on 12 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

On other threads I have noticed that some have difficulty understanding what it means to swing the club forward with the arms, or to actually do it.  I hope my thoughts on thew subject will assist at least some of you.

An Observation.  Most everyone is able to move the club from over their trail shoulder to over their lead shoulder in the course of making a swing.  If you are doing that YOU ARE ALREADY SWINGING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS.  If you don't believe me do an experiment.  Swing the club back over your trail shoulder, and then try to get the club over your leads shoulder without moving your arms.  You can't do it.  You can't move the club from over one shoulder to over the other with your hands, your wrists, your shoulders or your hips.  You are already moving the club with your arms.  You just need to keep that while eliminating things that aren't your arms.

Start with you hands.  Their function is merely to hold the club in the forward swing.  Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club.

Next focus on your wrists,  The hinge on the back swing and unhinge in the forward swing but they do so passively, as a result of gravity and the momentum of the swing.  Again work up from little to big swings allowing the hinging and unhinging to be purely a response.  No effort to snap the wrists, no effort to apply additional speed with the wrist, no tension, just swing the club from one side to the other and let the wrists react.

Eliminate interference from the forearms.  Your trail arm will extend through the shot, but it is a reaction to the speed of the arms.  Eliminate any hint of muscular effort to extend the trail arm, trust thew swinging motion to do it automatically.

The same notion applies to eliminating interference from  the shoulder, the hips, the weight shift,  etc.  When you are in fact moving the club from one side to the other, without allowing other body parts to interfere, you will be swinging the club forward with your arms, just as Manny taught.

Steve

Great summary Steve. The thing that always threw me off with the MDLT swing was the hands leading the backswing and the upper arms leading the forward swing. That transition always messed me up. Be that as it may, good job on the recap.

The original post was for guys like you, people having difficulty isolating the arms and swinging with them.  Unfortunately words are a poor vehicle for transmitting what it means to swing the club with the arms.  When Manny gave lessons he would put his hand on the students club. tell the student to relax, and then move the club back and forth in a swinging motion.  Soon the student is able to identify the proper motion and practice replicating it.  Being able to play the game is ultimately dependent on swinging consistently and to do that  that you need to know what it feels like.  Unless you can find an instructor of the method, you will need to find the feeling on the range.

Steve


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