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MDLT Thoughts On Using The Arms


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#1 juststeve

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 10:57 AM

On other threads I have noticed that some have difficulty understanding what it means to swing the club forward with the arms, or to actually do it.  I hope my thoughts on thew subject will assist at least some of you.

An Observation.  Most everyone is able to move the club from over their trail shoulder to over their lead shoulder in the course of making a swing.  If you are doing that YOU ARE ALREADY SWINGING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS.  If you don't believe me do an experiment.  Swing the club back over your trail shoulder, and then try to get the club over your leads shoulder without moving your arms.  You can't do it.  You can't move the club from over one shoulder to over the other with your hands, your wrists, your shoulders or your hips.  You are already moving the club with your arms.  You just need to keep that while eliminating things that aren't your arms.

Start with you hands.  Their function is merely to hold the club in the forward swing.  Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club.

Next focus on your wrists,  The hinge on the back swing and unhinge in the forward swing but they do so passively, as a result of gravity and the momentum of the swing.  Again work up from little to big swings allowing the hinging and unhinging to be purely a response.  No effort to snap the wrists, no effort to apply additional speed with the wrist, no tension, just swing the club from one side to the other and let the wrists react.

Eliminate interference from the forearms.  Your trail arm will extend through the shot, but it is a reaction to the speed of the arms.  Eliminate any hint of muscular effort to extend the trail arm, trust thew swinging motion to do it automatically.

The same notion applies to eliminating interference from  the shoulder, the hips, the weight shift,  etc.  When you are in fact moving the club from one side to the other, without allowing other body parts to interfere, you will be swinging the club forward with your arms, just as Manny taught.

Steve


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#2 ScratchyDawg

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 11:32 AM

That's a good way of putting it. For me, I see my arms, hands, and the club as one singular "mass" that extends from the center of my body. And I just allow the momentum of the mass to flow as it may during the swing.
"Give up control to gain control" - George Knudson

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#3 Jersey golfer

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 01:06 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 12 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

On other threads I have noticed that some have difficulty understanding what it means to swing the club forward with the arms, or to actually do it.  I hope my thoughts on thew subject will assist at least some of you.

An Observation.  Most everyone is able to move the club from over their trail shoulder to over their lead shoulder in the course of making a swing.  If you are doing that YOU ARE ALREADY SWINGING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS.  If you don't believe me do an experiment.  Swing the club back over your trail shoulder, and then try to get the club over your leads shoulder without moving your arms.  You can't do it.  You can't move the club from over one shoulder to over the other with your hands, your wrists, your shoulders or your hips.  You are already moving the club with your arms.  You just need to keep that while eliminating things that aren't your arms.

Start with you hands.  Their function is merely to hold the club in the forward swing.  Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club.

Next focus on your wrists,  The hinge on the back swing and unhinge in the forward swing but they do so passively, as a result of gravity and the momentum of the swing.  Again work up from little to big swings allowing the hinging and unhinging to be purely a response.  No effort to snap the wrists, no effort to apply additional speed with the wrist, no tension, just swing the club from one side to the other and let the wrists react.

Eliminate interference from the forearms.  Your trail arm will extend through the shot, but it is a reaction to the speed of the arms.  Eliminate any hint of muscular effort to extend the trail arm, trust thew swinging motion to do it automatically.

The same notion applies to eliminating interference from  the shoulder, the hips, the weight shift,  etc.  When you are in fact moving the club from one side to the other, without allowing other body parts to interfere, you will be swinging the club forward with your arms, just as Manny taught.

Steve

Thanks Steve, that is the best example of swinging with the arms that I have ever seen.

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#4 Boris2016

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 06:27 PM

View PostJersey golfer, on 12 May 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 12 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

On other threads I have noticed that some have difficulty understanding what it means to swing the club forward with the arms, or to actually do it.  I hope my thoughts on thew subject will assist at least some of you.

An Observation.  Most everyone is able to move the club from over their trail shoulder to over their lead shoulder in the course of making a swing.  If you are doing that YOU ARE ALREADY SWINGING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS.  If you don't believe me do an experiment.  Swing the club back over your trail shoulder, and then try to get the club over your leads shoulder without moving your arms.  You can't do it.  You can't move the club from over one shoulder to over the other with your hands, your wrists, your shoulders or your hips.  You are already moving the club with your arms.  You just need to keep that while eliminating things that aren't your arms.

Start with you hands.  Their function is merely to hold the club in the forward swing.  Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club.

Next focus on your wrists,  The hinge on the back swing and unhinge in the forward swing but they do so passively, as a result of gravity and the momentum of the swing.  Again work up from little to big swings allowing the hinging and unhinging to be purely a response.  No effort to snap the wrists, no effort to apply additional speed with the wrist, no tension, just swing the club from one side to the other and let the wrists react.

Eliminate interference from the forearms.  Your trail arm will extend through the shot, but it is a reaction to the speed of the arms.  Eliminate any hint of muscular effort to extend the trail arm, trust thew swinging motion to do it automatically.

The same notion applies to eliminating interference from  the shoulder, the hips, the weight shift,  etc.  When you are in fact moving the club from one side to the other, without allowing other body parts to interfere, you will be swinging the club forward with your arms, just as Manny taught.

Steve

Thanks Steve, that is the best example of swinging with the arms that I have ever seen.

goodness, you all think too much.  The  golf swing is just a turn to the right and a turn to the left.  Let the arms lift on their own.  Stay loose.  That is the golf swing, it is really that simple.

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#5 Kirk Land

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 07:22 PM

View PostBoris2016, on 12 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

View PostJersey golfer, on 12 May 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 12 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

On other threads I have noticed that some have difficulty understanding what it means to swing the club forward with the arms, or to actually do it.  I hope my thoughts on thew subject will assist at least some of you.

An Observation.  Most everyone is able to move the club from over their trail shoulder to over their lead shoulder in the course of making a swing.  If you are doing that YOU ARE ALREADY SWINGING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS.  If you don't believe me do an experiment.  Swing the club back over your trail shoulder, and then try to get the club over your leads shoulder without moving your arms.  You can't do it.  You can't move the club from over one shoulder to over the other with your hands, your wrists, your shoulders or your hips.  You are already moving the club with your arms.  You just need to keep that while eliminating things that aren't your arms.

Start with you hands.  Their function is merely to hold the club in the forward swing.  Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club.

Next focus on your wrists,  The hinge on the back swing and unhinge in the forward swing but they do so passively, as a result of gravity and the momentum of the swing.  Again work up from little to big swings allowing the hinging and unhinging to be purely a response.  No effort to snap the wrists, no effort to apply additional speed with the wrist, no tension, just swing the club from one side to the other and let the wrists react.

Eliminate interference from the forearms.  Your trail arm will extend through the shot, but it is a reaction to the speed of the arms.  Eliminate any hint of muscular effort to extend the trail arm, trust thew swinging motion to do it automatically.

The same notion applies to eliminating interference from  the shoulder, the hips, the weight shift,  etc.  When you are in fact moving the club from one side to the other, without allowing other body parts to interfere, you will be swinging the club forward with your arms, just as Manny taught.

Steve

Thanks Steve, that is the best example of swinging with the arms that I have ever seen.

goodness, you all think too much.  The  golf swing is just a turn to the right and a turn to the left.  Let the arms lift on their own.  Stay loose.  That is the golf swing, it is really that simple.


excerpt from a review of Natural Golf Swing, George Knudson

This book is the best I have found that explains how simple a real golf swing is. Use your center, shift your weight and let you arms, hands and club go along for the ride. This will produce the most solid consistent swing. It is truly that simple. The problem is we try and add to much.
People who disagree dont understand physics.


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#6 juststeve

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 10:30 AM

View PostBoris2016, on 12 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

View PostJersey golfer, on 12 May 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 12 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

On other threads I have noticed that some have difficulty understanding what it means to swing the club forward with the arms, or to actually do it.  I hope my thoughts on thew subject will assist at least some of you.

An Observation.  Most everyone is able to move the club from over their trail shoulder to over their lead shoulder in the course of making a swing.  If you are doing that YOU ARE ALREADY SWINGING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS.  If you don't believe me do an experiment.  Swing the club back over your trail shoulder, and then try to get the club over your leads shoulder without moving your arms.  You can't do it.  You can't move the club from over one shoulder to over the other with your hands, your wrists, your shoulders or your hips.  You are already moving the club with your arms.  You just need to keep that while eliminating things that aren't your arms.

Start with you hands.  Their function is merely to hold the club in the forward swing.  Starting with little swings and working up, eliminate any hint of independent hand action.  If you begin to feels your hands doing anything except holding the club, back off to shorter swings until your hands are passive, just holding the club.

Next focus on your wrists,  The hinge on the back swing and unhinge in the forward swing but they do so passively, as a result of gravity and the momentum of the swing.  Again work up from little to big swings allowing the hinging and unhinging to be purely a response.  No effort to snap the wrists, no effort to apply additional speed with the wrist, no tension, just swing the club from one side to the other and let the wrists react.

Eliminate interference from the forearms.  Your trail arm will extend through the shot, but it is a reaction to the speed of the arms.  Eliminate any hint of muscular effort to extend the trail arm, trust thew swinging motion to do it automatically.

The same notion applies to eliminating interference from  the shoulder, the hips, the weight shift,  etc.  When you are in fact moving the club from one side to the other, without allowing other body parts to interfere, you will be swinging the club forward with your arms, just as Manny taught.

Steve

Thanks Steve, that is the best example of swinging with the arms that I have ever seen.

goodness, you all think too much.  The  golf swing is just a turn to the right and a turn to the left.  Let the arms lift on their own.  Stay loose.  That is the golf swing, it is really that simple.

Make things as simple as possible, but not too simple.  There is nothing about turning to the right and turning to the left that will make the "arms lift on their own".  On the other hand, swing the club over the trail shoulder and the body will turn back in response.  Swing the club over the front shoulder and the body will turn through in response.  That's simple but no too simple.

Steve

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#7 fjk

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 11:24 AM

To each his own.

One person's thoughts and feels can make drastically different outcomes for another.

As much as there is overcomplicating the golf swing, there is oversimplifying. People often think their method and feel makes the most sense, but it's not objective. It's subjective.

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#8 juststeve

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 11:45 AM

View Postfjk, on 15 May 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

To each his own.

One person's thoughts and feels can make drastically different outcomes for another.

As much as there is overcomplicating the golf swing, there is oversimplifying. People often think their method and feel makes the most sense, but it's not objective. It's subjective.

Its not my method.

Steve

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#9 chippa13

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 12:23 PM

View Postfjk, on 15 May 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

To each his own.

One person's thoughts and feels can make drastically different outcomes for another.

As much as there is overcomplicating the golf swing, there is oversimplifying. People often think their method and feel makes the most sense, but it's not objective. It's subjective.

The rule in most things in life is the simpler the better. The more pieces you have to anything, including a golf swing, then the more places where something can break down and go wrong.

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#10 fjk

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 03:10 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 15 May 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

View Postfjk, on 15 May 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

To each his own.

One person's thoughts and feels can make drastically different outcomes for another.

As much as there is overcomplicating the golf swing, there is oversimplifying. People often think their method and feel makes the most sense, but it's not objective. It's subjective.

Its not my method.

Steve

I realize that, but it's someone's.

Was also in response to another post about how simple it "should" be.

Edited by fjk, 15 May 2017 - 03:10 PM.


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#11 grizztrax

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 11:23 AM

View Postfjk, on 15 May 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 15 May 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

View Postfjk, on 15 May 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

To each his own.

One person's thoughts and feels can make drastically different outcomes for another.

As much as there is overcomplicating the golf swing, there is oversimplifying. People often think their method and feel makes the most sense, but it's not objective. It's subjective.

Its not my method.

Steve

I realize that, but it's someone's.

Was also in response to another post about how simple it "should" be.

Thanks for stating the obvious.  We all know there are a million ways to swing a club.  We are in this forum to discuss swing mechanics and methods.  If it doesn't apply to you, probably best to move along.

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#12 bph7

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

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#13 nohny noke

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.

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#14 juststeve

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 11:57 AM

View Postnohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.

What he challenges as though it were my advice is pure Manuel de la Torre, a hall of fame instructor and the first person ever to be selected as the National Teacher Of The Year.  For 60 years he kept his lesson tee full with players ranging from beginners to touring pros, and did so because he made them better.   I usually don't stoop to defending Manny's methods, pearls before swing your know, but the kind of arrogant dismissal expressed by bph7 got my goat, at least today.

Steve

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#15 SuperPunch

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 12:02 PM

Steve,
Thank you for writing this. I've been doing the MDLT swing now since early last spring, and like anything, have plenty of ups and downs. Currently in a slump, and I know most of it comes from tension in the swing — getting my shoulders involved and "hitting" the ball instead of purely swinging and letting the body react. Your explanation is a great reminder.

In terms of the feedback to this post, the method does work if done right, that's a fact, not subjective. If you do what Steve says at the top within the MDLT swing, it won't make anyone worse, it'll make you better. All other criticisms are just hot air.


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#16 bph7

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 12:53 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 16 May 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

View Postnohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.

What he challenges as though it were my advice is pure Manuel de la Torre, a hall of fame instructor and the first person ever to be selected as the National Teacher Of The Year.  For 60 years he kept his lesson tee full with players ranging from beginners to touring pros, and did so because he made them better.   I usually don't stoop to defending Manny's methods, pearls before swing your know, but the kind of arrogant dismissal expressed by bph7 got my goat, at least today.

Steve

I don't appreciate the personal attacks. I was taking issue with your advice, which is extremely flawed/downright wrong, not you personally. The fact that you need to stoop to the level of calling me arrogant shows you don't respect the game or healthy discussion. A number of things YOU wrote have been proven to be demonstrably wrong. Lots of people are wrong about the golf swing, it's not an indictment of your character.

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#17 bph7

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 12:59 PM

View Postnohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.

I'm only on my phone right now, but when I get back to my computer I can do a paragraph by paragraph analysis of where the advice would make golfers worse. Steve is a good guy, it's a shame he had to resort to personal attacks when all I wanted was a discussion, but I can show where he is incorrect.

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#18 games

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 01:03 PM

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 16 May 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

View Postnohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.

What he challenges as though it were my advice is pure Manuel de la Torre, a hall of fame instructor and the first person ever to be selected as the National Teacher Of The Year.  For 60 years he kept his lesson tee full with players ranging from beginners to touring pros, and did so because he made them better.   I usually don't stoop to defending Manny's methods, pearls before swing your know, but the kind of arrogant dismissal expressed by bph7 got my goat, at least today.

Steve

I don't appreciate the personal attacks. I was taking issue with your advice, which is extremely flawed/downright wrong, not you personally. The fact that you need to stoop to the level of calling me arrogant shows you don't respect the game or healthy discussion. A number of things YOU wrote have been proven to be demonstrably wrong. Lots of people are wrong about the golf swing, it's not an indictment of your character.

Steve didn't call YOU arrogant.  He said your DISMISSAL was arrogant.

Therefore, by your own standards, there was no personal attack.
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#19 fjk

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 01:12 PM

View Postgrizztrax, on 16 May 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

View Postfjk, on 15 May 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 15 May 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

View Postfjk, on 15 May 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

To each his own.

One person's thoughts and feels can make drastically different outcomes for another.

As much as there is overcomplicating the golf swing, there is oversimplifying. People often think their method and feel makes the most sense, but it's not objective. It's subjective.

Its not my method.

Steve

I realize that, but it's someone's.

Was also in response to another post about how simple it "should" be.

Thanks for stating the obvious.  We all know there are a million ways to swing a club.  We are in this forum to discuss swing mechanics and methods.  If it doesn't apply to you, probably best to move along.

Point being his methods work for only a subset of people bc the OP was quoting a set of feels.

Current trends are more objective in showing what people are actually doing, not necessarily how, nor how they are feeling nor what they think they are doing.

I like the idea of using arms to achieve the appropriate mechanics but to say that the hands or wrist etc do nothing "but hold the club" is oversimplifying things and probably works for MDLT when in conjunction with in person teaching. Which means these feels arent, in isolation, effective without additional instruction.

Just saying a lot of people over respond to all the over thinking with over simplifying.

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#20 bph7

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 01:13 PM

View Postgames, on 16 May 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 16 May 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

View Postnohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.

What he challenges as though it were my advice is pure Manuel de la Torre, a hall of fame instructor and the first person ever to be selected as the National Teacher Of The Year.  For 60 years he kept his lesson tee full with players ranging from beginners to touring pros, and did so because he made them better.   I usually don't stoop to defending Manny's methods, pearls before swing your know, but the kind of arrogant dismissal expressed by bph7 got my goat, at least today.

Steve

I don't appreciate the personal attacks. I was taking issue with your advice, which is extremely flawed/downright wrong, not you personally. The fact that you need to stoop to the level of calling me arrogant shows you don't respect the game or healthy discussion. A number of things YOU wrote have been proven to be demonstrably wrong. Lots of people are wrong about the golf swing, it's not an indictment of your character.

Steve didn't call YOU arrogant.  He said your DISMISSAL was arrogant.

Therefore, by your own standards, there was no personal attack.

He said "arrogant dismissal expressed by bph7". I'm not sure what was "arrogant" about it. I truly honestly believe that this is bad advice. I said steve is a good guy. Good guys can be wrong, can they not?


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#21 games

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    Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they are yours.

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 01:23 PM

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

He said "arrogant dismissal expressed by bph7". I'm not sure what was "arrogant" about it. I truly honestly believe that this is bad advice. I said steve is a good guy. Good guys can be wrong, can they not?

I have no reason to believe you are not a good guy.  Therefore, I agree.  

That said, I am interested to hear your criticism of steve and the MDLT method, in general.  It's not for everyone.  Pretty hard to do.  But, I think it works for more than a few...

Edited by games, 16 May 2017 - 01:25 PM.

They who are enamoured of practice
without knowledge are like the mariner
going to sea without a rudder or compass
and who navigates without a course.

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#22 juststeve

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 01:45 PM

My original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

Steve

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#23 chippa13

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 01:50 PM

Not your fault. Some people just like to argue. I don't know why he came into a thread discussing a method that he completely disagreed with in the first place. That said, since first stumbling on a MDLT thread last spring/summer I've adopted a couple of his ideas into my playing and seen positive results.

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#24 ScratchyDawg

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 01:57 PM

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

View Postnohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.

I'm only on my phone right now, but when I get back to my computer I can do a paragraph by paragraph analysis of where the advice would make golfers worse. Steve is a good guy, it's a shame he had to resort to personal attacks when all I wanted was a discussion, but I can show where he is incorrect.

Not the best way to start a discussion by immediately dismissing something without first offering your own thoughts as to why it's "bad advice". Otherwise, it does sound pretty arrogant.
"Give up control to gain control" - George Knudson

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#25 bph7

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 02:06 PM

View PostScratchyDawg, on 16 May 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

View Postnohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.

I'm only on my phone right now, but when I get back to my computer I can do a paragraph by paragraph analysis of where the advice would make golfers worse. Steve is a good guy, it's a shame he had to resort to personal attacks when all I wanted was a discussion, but I can show where he is incorrect.

Not the best way to start a discussion by immediately dismissing something without first offering your own thoughts as to why it's "bad advice". Otherwise, it does sound pretty arrogant.

Fair enough. I should've waited until I had more time to do a detailed point counterpoint analysis. My comments still stand in relation to the content tho. My main issue, fwiw, is that OP uses very general terms (i.e. "Passive hands") to describe things that are much more complicated than that. Things can only be so simple, and I think the explanations are vastly oversimplified and likely to be misinterpreted and make golfers worse. As for MDLT himself, from all accounts he was a great guy and a great teacher. Im not denying that, just saying that what he taugh has been distilled to oversimplified truisms in the OP.


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#26 chippa13

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 02:34 PM

And yet in MDLT Q&A sessions he talks about how doubters look at his theory and think, "it can't be that simple". As near as I can tell, simplicity is the cornerstone of the method.

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#27 ricklinens

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 03:04 PM

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

View Postnohny noke, on 16 May 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

View Postbph7, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP's advice is extremely likely to make golfers worse imo. I'd avoid at all costs. There are a bunch of over simplifications that just are not helpful.

Could you please explain why you think Steve's advice would make golfers worse?  Thanks.

I'm only on my phone right now, but when I get back to my computer I can do a paragraph by paragraph analysis of where the advice would make golfers worse. Steve is a good guy, it's a shame he had to resort to personal attacks when all I wanted was a discussion, but I can show where he is incorrect.

Are you  planning on doing a paragraph by paragraph analysis?
The less you put in, the more you take out.

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#28 cav5

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 03:05 PM

I don't think there is ever a swinging of the arms in a passive sense. Using the hands and arms effectively to hit a ball down and in front of you looks like a swing but is far from it imo. My fingers and forearms, especially the right one is always sore and tired after hitting balls.
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#29 juststeve

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 03:26 PM

View Postcav5, on 16 May 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

I don't think there is ever a swinging of the arms in a passive sense. Using the hands and arms effectively to hit a ball down and in front of you looks like a swing but is far from it imo. My fingers and forearms, especially the right one is always sore and tired after hitting balls.

The arms are not passive.  They swing the club freely and fast in the direction of the target.  Everything else is responsive.

As to your soreness, way too much tension I suspect  is the reason.  Even at my advanced age I can hit a couple hundred balls without experiencing either soreness or fatigue.  Try relaxation.

Steve

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#30 games

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 05:06 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 16 May 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

My original post on this thread was directed at people who have adopted Manny's swing concept, but are having trouble isolating the arms and swinging with those.  It was an effort to help those who want to swing the way Manny taught us to swing.  If you don't want to master his way of swinging, so be it.  My posts will have little relevance to you.

Steve

Steve, I appreciate your expertise as the resident GolfWRX expert on MDLT's teachings.  
Question:  What separates Manny's "arms-led" swing versus the feel of a shoulder-led swing?

As an aside, one image I like to equate with MDLT is the little Japanese toy drum (den-den daiko) made famous in the ending fight scene of Karate Kid II.
For some reason this image reasonates with me...

Edited by games, 16 May 2017 - 05:08 PM.

They who are enamoured of practice
without knowledge are like the mariner
going to sea without a rudder or compass
and who navigates without a course.

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