[DaveyH]

definetly help you playing from tight lies!!
You never know what to expect in a competition!

[NJGolfer72]

I checked the third option, although lies are something I have rarely altered (I even played out of a buried mud pit once - new use for sand wedge).

Probably the biggest winter rule, I will play is really a fall rule. Free drop from pile of leaves. Just not worth searching through piles upon piles and holding up the course to find the ball.

[sandwedge59]

When you are by yourself just playing without a scorecard /keeping a score i cant say there would be a problem with it but if you are keeping a score for handicap or playing with your friends for the $2.00 nassau all rules should apply

[kevcarter]

Tenementrock, on Mar 7 2008, 05:01 PM, said:

sandwedge59, on Mar 7 2008, 05:46 PM, said:

When you are by yourself just playing without a scorecard /keeping a score i cant say there would be a problem with it but if you are keeping a score for handicap or playing with your friends for the $2.00 nassau all rules should apply

Of course, everybody does what they want, that's not really the underlying question. Where I'm coming from is...trying to look at it from a player's perspective...I'm wondering if rules abiding (or bending) has a good, bad or negligible effect on a person's overall golf game.

When you change from winter back to summer rules, EVERY lie looks bad. IMHO, good players should be playing it down, especially when not competing to avoid that feeling. If playing an event, and the rules for the day are winter rules, by all means, play them when it matters and everybody else is.

Kevin

[The Ultimate Spin]

the only difference in my winter rules from regular rules is that i can clean and replace my ball (plugging in the fairway). during the winter the ground is saturated which punishes good shots more than it does bad ones...thats not right however, all winter rules are void for me after march 1st, thats the day we start entering scores for handicaps around here

[Pinehurst1999]

I will play that you are allowed to roll them in the fairway only...not fair to get a bad lie after an absolutely perfect drive.

[BFC]

I play the balls as it lies, unles the USGA rules say otherwise.

[frozen_rope]

"winter rules" is definitely cheating.

The USGA Rules of Golf allow for relief from casual water and embedded balls, so there is never any reason to play lift, clean, cheat (winter rules).

Tenementrock, on Mar 7 2008, 05:24 PM, said:

Well folks, hopefully this topic will become irrelevant shortly, but while we're still feeling the winter blues, I thought I'd bring this up.

Personally, I don't use the winter rules. I can't bring myself to. It's somehow...less satisfying to me. The elements, they are part of the game, no? But anyways I'm not entirely sure I'm doing the "right" thing.

I managed to play a round yesterday, which was nice considering the weather as of late...but the areas around the greens in particular were patchy, and balls routinely settled in those little sunken patches with little to no grass underneath...which made chipping very challenging. Flop shots? Forget about it. It becomes a different kind of game in these conditions, for sure.

But am I doing myself a disservice, or do these challenges make one a better player? I want to know what some other people think, although I suspect I'm in a very small minority.

[stevestrike]

You have to play winter rules around here (during the winter of course). We get to play year-round golf, but sometimes the wetness gets overwhelming since the sun does not come out to try things off. The ball picks up a 1" coating of mud after your tee shot, and anything with a lofted club will pretty much embeds into the ground. It's not uncommon for us to see the ball mark made by your drive, and the ball sitting right there next to it!

That's not to mention that if you were to actually hit your ball out of most fairway lies, you would coat yourself, and anyone around you with a big splash of mud.

[lrgdawg]

BFC, on Mar 7 2008, 08:39 PM, said:

I play the balls as it lies, unles the USGA rules say otherwise.

Agreed! Playing it as you find it ultimately will make you a better player. Anybody can hit it from a perfect lie, but what do you do when your ball comes to rest in a divot in the middle of the fairway? Sometimes course/weather conditions may dictate otherwise, but I prefer to play it down. That way there are no questions. Putting your hands on the ball favors no one and takes away from the integrity of the game and the way it was meant to be played. JMO

[kevcarter]

NOT "CHEATING."

Local rules section of the USGA Rules Of Golf

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of Course

a. Lifting an Embedded Ball; Cleaning

Course conditions that might interfere with proper playing of the game, including mud and extreme wetness, warranting relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green or permitting lifting, cleaning and replacing a ball anywhere through the green or on a closely mown area through the green.

b. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules"

Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months, that the Committee may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule either to protect the course or to promote fair and pleasant play. The Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant.

Clearly there are times when winter rules ARE warranted and supported by the rules of golf.

Kevin

[ezra76]

Around here you can't enter any rounds towards cap during offseason anyway. If someone would like to not play lift, clean, place around here then so be it. If they played my tee shots, dropping from 250ft. high and plugged to underground, they'd shoot about 150.

Guys who say it is cheating have no clue. If they'd like to hit a ball with over half the ballweight with a chunk of mud on it, go for it, enjoy, just let me play through whilst you hack mudballs around for 5 1/2 hrs.

[dlygrisse]

If you are living north of the Mason Dixon line and are lucky enough to play this time of the year you have to play by some winter rules or it just gets rediculous. I was lucky enough to play last weekend, 75 degrees, 40mph winds, but as I type right now it is 9 degrees outside with snow on the ground. Point being the fairways had just absorded multiple inches of snow and the ball was plugging. Even if it wasn't plugging it was backing up in the fairway on almost every shot and it was rare to find the ball without mud on it. In this part of the country there are no USGA handicaps untill around April 1st so no one is posting scores. Our group has a game and we all agreed it was lift clean and cheat from the fairway and we played the ball down everywhere else.
For those of you who are saying this is cheating blah blah blah, so what? I believe playing by the rules, but if you couldn't roll the ball and clean it might as well not play at all, and a chance to play this time of year is golden. Plus who are we cheating? we are not keeping handicaps, and if we were we would only be cheating ourselves, we are not playing in a tournament, we are only playing a little money game between friends, and we all agreed on the rules on the first tee, so get off your high horse's.

BTW I live in the Kansas City area and it has been a cold and snowy winter, so much for global warming, and I have been lucky enough to play at least one time each month this winter, got lucky a few days and had to brave some pretty rough conditions, but it was worth it. In this part of the world you take what you can get from November to April, and playing winter rules has to be part of the equation on occasion, especially when the course is saturated in water, and the grass hasnt grown in 4 months.

[blade_man]

How can hitting a burried fairway shot make you a better player? How do the pros play when it is so wet the ball plugs? They don't call it winter rules but they sure play it, hell they moved a boulder the size of the cumberland lake for Tiger in the middle of summer Is that fair? Just bring the chain saw next time and see what the pro says when you tell him what its for!

[dlnljl]

My playing partners and I agree on what winter rules apply up here in Canada. It is usually lift clean and place. We don't apply these scores to our handicaps, it is more of a training season with us that lasts about three weeks. Once the agreed time is over we go back to playing where it lies.

[Swingtheclub]

Its funny the course I play at has no fairway irrigation. We played winter rules year round .

The last couple of years for a couple of month window the fairways have been getting nice enough to play it down. The guys I play with will usually do this when we can.

Now understand we are talking fairways only here.

Whats funny is when I go someplace else with nice fairways I have no problem playing the ball down.

I do not think if your fairways are not in good condition playing it up hurts a thing.


Hey it seems like they have ball in hand every other weekend on tour. Trust me they play on nicer fairways than I get too.

thats just my opinion.

[kevcarter]

blade_man, on Mar 8 2008, 08:20 AM, said:

How can hitting a burried fairway shot make you a better player? How do the pros play when it is so wet the ball plugs? They don't call it winter rules but they sure play it, hell they moved a boulder the size of the cumberland lake for Tiger in the middle of summer Is that fair? Just bring the chain saw next time and see what the pro says when you tell him what its for!

Whoaaa, calm down.

I think most of us agree with you. The ball plugging, and playing winter rules are two totally different things. You always get relief for a ball that is embedded in the fairway, and there are times when winter rules IS supported by the rules of golf.

My point early in the thread was that there are times that people play winter rules when it is NOT supported by the rules. I do believe that in these situations, not in competition, good players may want to play them down so that when your group plays summer rules, every lie doesn't look terrible, and all of a sudden you have to play it.



Kevin

[atlanta golfer]

Depends. Serious match or tournament of course not. Playing with friends or family and this is what people want to do, then I go with it. Golf is both a competitive sport and a social game and I think you have got to adapt to the situation.

[br61]

KevCarter, on Mar 8 2008, 06:50 AM, said:

NOT "CHEATING."

Local rules section of the USGA Rules Of Golf

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of Course

a. Lifting an Embedded Ball; Cleaning

Course conditions that might interfere with proper playing of the game, including mud and extreme wetness, warranting relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green or permitting lifting, cleaning and replacing a ball anywhere through the green or on a closely mown area through the green.

b. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules"

Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months, that the Committee may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule either to protect the course or to promote fair and pleasant play. The Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant.

Clearly there are times when winter rules ARE warranted and supported by the rules of golf.

Kevin

Exactly it's what often happens around here due to our soil makeup. It's always soggy here in winters and the ground is always saturated due to rains not drying off quickly enough due to cold-cool temperatures. So every drive that I hit in the fairway will usually pops up with huge glob of mud on it usually where I have to hit the ball. No fun at all, believe it or not, I usually have much better lies in or much easier shots out of patchy rough than in fairways. If there's no mud on the ball in the fairways(which is a rarity around here in winters), I'll play it as it lies. I don't miss fairways very often, perhaps I just need to hit the rough more often as I can pick up 20-30 more yards of roll there.

Once it dries out sufficiently enough, it's back to summer rules which isn't that hard anyway. Handicap reporting does not start around here until March 4th. Move the ball, no reporting for handicap purposes for me.

[kevcarter]

br61, on Mar 8 2008, 08:38 AM, said:

KevCarter, on Mar 8 2008, 06:50 AM, said:

NOT "CHEATING."

Local rules section of the USGA Rules Of Golf

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of Course

a. Lifting an Embedded Ball; Cleaning

Course conditions that might interfere with proper playing of the game, including mud and extreme wetness, warranting relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green or permitting lifting, cleaning and replacing a ball anywhere through the green or on a closely mown area through the green.

b. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules"

Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months, that the Committee may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule either to protect the course or to promote fair and pleasant play. The Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant.

Clearly there are times when winter rules ARE warranted and supported by the rules of golf.

Kevin

Exactly it's what often happens around here due to our soil makeup. It's always soggy here in winters and the ground is always saturated due to rains not drying off quickly enough due to cold-cool temperatures. So every drive that I hit in the fairway will usually pops up with huge glob of mud on it usually where I have to hit the ball. No fun at all, believe it or not, I usually have much better lies in or much easier shots out of patchy rough than in fairways. If there's no mud on the ball in the fairways(which is a rarity around here in winters), I'll play it as it lies. I don't miss fairways very often, perhaps I just need to hit the rough more often as I can pick up 20-30 more yards of roll there.

Once it dries out sufficiently enough, it's back to summer rules which isn't that hard anyway. Handicap reporting does not start around here until March 4th. Move the ball, no reporting for handicap purposes for me.

BR61,

Sorry my friend, sometime I wish I didn't know where to look, but I think it's important that everybody gets the proper facts.



Kevin

From the USGA Handicap Manual

7-1. Acceptability of Scores When Playing Preferred Lies

Scores made when a local rule for preferred lies and/or winter rules is in effect must be posted for handicap purposes unless the committee (preferably the Handicap Committee in consultation with the committee in charge of the course) determines that conditions are so poor that such scores should not be posted. Individual players playing the course do not independently decide whether scores are acceptable because of this condition. If an individual decides to apply some form of this local rule and the committee has not invoked such a rule, the player's score is acceptable and must be posted for handicap purposes.

Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months that the committee may decide to grant relief by temporary local rule either to protect the course or to promote fair and pleasant
play. The local rule should be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant.

If the committee decides to adopt such a Local Rule, it should publish Specimen Local Rule 4c in "The Rules of Golf," Rule 33-8a and in Appendix I of "The Rule of Golf." However, Specimen Local Rule 4c may not be printed or referred to on a scorecard as it is of limited duration.

("The Rules of Golf," Appendix I, Part B, 4c.)

[blade_man]

KevCarter, on Mar 8 2008, 09:30 AM, said:

blade_man, on Mar 8 2008, 08:20 AM, said:

How can hitting a burried fairway shot make you a better player? How do the pros play when it is so wet the ball plugs? They don't call it winter rules but they sure play it, hell they moved a boulder the size of the cumberland lake for Tiger in the middle of summer Is that fair? Just bring the chain saw next time and see what the pro says when you tell him what its for!

Whoaaa, calm down.

I think most of us agree with you. The ball plugging, and playing winter rules are two totally different things. You always get relief for a ball that is embedded in the fairway, and there are times when winter rules IS supported by the rules of golf.

My point early in the thread was that there are times that people play winter rules when it is NOT supported by the rules. I do believe that in these situations, not in competition, good players may want to play them down so that when your group plays summer rules, every lie doesn't look terrible, and all of a sudden you have to play it.



Kevin

Kevin,
Didn't mean to spout but when someone says its cheating to lift clean and place...well, I play golf because of the rules, I play the ball "down" everywhere, just ticks me off when someone says you are cheating by playing by the rules! Watch any PGA event and you will see the "pros" getting relief from something, saw Garcia several years ago "bend" the rules because of bleachers, they where in his intended line (he was behind a bush) got relief then proceeded to go directly toward the green (now that he had relief from the bush)! Hope your weather is better than ours and oh yeah, I hate this forum! I spend way too much time checking out everything!! It is like an addiction..........

[frozen_rope]

This thread brought out the usual chorus of excuses for cheating. "Oh , around here the soil is soggy and mud gets on the ball" or, "If it's just a practice round then bumping the ball is o.k.".
The fact remains that the USGA Rules allow for embedded ball relief and casual water relief. Those two points cover any and all unfair conditions during wet season months.

Tenementrock, on Mar 8 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

Let me clear this up a bit. I'm not really trying to judge the ethics of preferred lies vs. playing it down. First of all, just trying to get an idea of how golfers generally play it during the winter. Secondly, I'm looking for feedback as to which is PREFERABLE from a players' standpoint.

In a practice round, playing preferred lies almost guarantees a better score, but is there any practical benefit besides that? Or on the flip side, is playing it down all the time...is THAT doing a disservice to your game? Because sometimes, in playing the ball down, shotmaking options become much more limited, expectations have to be lowered, etc. Generally I think it's good to practice off bare lies and such, but sometimes I end up making super conservative plays that I probably wouldn't under normal conditions.

Since this is not an ethics debate, I don't think these extreme examples of embedded lies or severe mud balls really add anything, in fact bringing these up reflects a bit of touchiness or defensiveness about using winter rules. No need for that. I'm thinking more about the common occurrences, the marginally bad lies that are just all over the course in the winter.

[ezra76]

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 05:20 PM, said:

This thread brought out the usual chorus of excuses for cheating. "Oh , around here the soil is soggy and mud gets on the ball" or, "If it's just a practice round then bumping the ball is o.k.".
The fact remains that the USGA Rules allow for embedded ball relief and casual water relief. Those two points cover any and all unfair conditions during wet season months.

Tenementrock, on Mar 8 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

Let me clear this up a bit. I'm not really trying to judge the ethics of preferred lies vs. playing it down. First of all, just trying to get an idea of how golfers generally play it during the winter. Secondly, I'm looking for feedback as to which is PREFERABLE from a players' standpoint.

In a practice round, playing preferred lies almost guarantees a better score, but is there any practical benefit besides that? Or on the flip side, is playing it down all the time...is THAT doing a disservice to your game? Because sometimes, in playing the ball down, shotmaking options become much more limited, expectations have to be lowered, etc. Generally I think it's good to practice off bare lies and such, but sometimes I end up making super conservative plays that I probably wouldn't under normal conditions.

Since this is not an ethics debate, I don't think these extreme examples of embedded lies or severe mud balls really add anything, in fact bringing these up reflects a bit of touchiness or defensiveness about using winter rules. No need for that. I'm thinking more about the common occurrences, the marginally bad lies that are just all over the course in the winter.

So who decides when it's lift, clean and place? You? Would you play a ball that has over half it's weight in mud caked on it after every shot? It's so bad here now a short iron leaves a fried egg on a green. My drives spin back 2-3 ft. on avg. and are absolutely caked in mud. You'd shoot 30 strokes over avg. playing every shot like that. I'll do it if you'd like but don't complain if I play you in June and shoot 81 with a 31 handicap.

[br61]

KevCarter, on Mar 8 2008, 08:49 AM, said:

br61, on Mar 8 2008, 08:38 AM, said:

KevCarter, on Mar 8 2008, 06:50 AM, said:

NOT "CHEATING."

Local rules section of the USGA Rules Of Golf

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of Course

a. Lifting an Embedded Ball; Cleaning

Course conditions that might interfere with proper playing of the game, including mud and extreme wetness, warranting relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green or permitting lifting, cleaning and replacing a ball anywhere through the green or on a closely mown area through the green.

b. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules"

Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months, that the Committee may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule either to protect the course or to promote fair and pleasant play. The Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant.

Clearly there are times when winter rules ARE warranted and supported by the rules of golf.

Kevin

Exactly it's what often happens around here due to our soil makeup. It's always soggy here in winters and the ground is always saturated due to rains not drying off quickly enough due to cold-cool temperatures. So every drive that I hit in the fairway will usually pops up with huge glob of mud on it usually where I have to hit the ball. No fun at all, believe it or not, I usually have much better lies in or much easier shots out of patchy rough than in fairways. If there's no mud on the ball in the fairways(which is a rarity around here in winters), I'll play it as it lies. I don't miss fairways very often, perhaps I just need to hit the rough more often as I can pick up 20-30 more yards of roll there.

Once it dries out sufficiently enough, it's back to summer rules which isn't that hard anyway. Handicap reporting does not start around here until March 4th. Move the ball, no reporting for handicap purposes for me.

BR61,

Sorry my friend, sometime I wish I didn't know where to look, but I think it's important that everybody gets the proper facts.



Kevin

From the USGA Handicap Manual

7-1. Acceptability of Scores When Playing Preferred Lies

Scores made when a local rule for preferred lies and/or winter rules is in effect must be posted for handicap purposes unless the committee (preferably the Handicap Committee in consultation with the committee in charge of the course) determines that conditions are so poor that such scores should not be posted. Individual players playing the course do not independently decide whether scores are acceptable because of this condition. If an individual decides to apply some form of this local rule and the committee has not invoked such a rule, the player's score is acceptable and must be posted for handicap purposes.

Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months that the committee may decide to grant relief by temporary local rule either to protect the course or to promote fair and pleasant
play. The local rule should be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant.

If the committee decides to adopt such a Local Rule, it should publish Specimen Local Rule 4c in "The Rules of Golf," Rule 33-8a and in Appendix I of "The Rule of Golf." However, Specimen Local Rule 4c may not be printed or referred to on a scorecard as it is of limited duration.

("The Rules of Golf," Appendix I, Part B, 4c.)

Hmm, I wasn't aware of that rule. I usually don't post my score for handicap purposes if I roll the ball around. That's the way I always do.

BTW when it's muddy, it usually scores harder around here due to additional length with no roll at all along with cooler temps, that I often use 2-5 more clubs that I normally experience in drier and warmer conditions.

Keep in mind I will play as it lies if I don't have huge glob of mud on my ball in winter or spring, it isn't that hard to hit the ball if your ballstriking skills are decent enough. I guess several golfers here has never experienced such soft ,muddy and soggy conditions that are commonly found at courses in midwest or northern states. I actually prefer hardpan or thin lies than being in a 3-4 inch rough.

I think I'll play tomorrow leaving my ball alone if there's huge crapload of mud on it and see how fun it will be.

[kevcarter]

Wow 'frozen_rope' ,

Did you happen to see the rule I posted directly from the rule book? Cheating???

Kevin

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 04:20 PM, said:

This thread brought out the usual chorus of excuses for cheating. "Oh , around here the soil is soggy and mud gets on the ball" or, "If it's just a practice round then bumping the ball is o.k.".
The fact remains that the USGA Rules allow for embedded ball relief and casual water relief. Those two points cover any and all unfair conditions during wet season months.

Tenementrock, on Mar 8 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

Let me clear this up a bit. I'm not really trying to judge the ethics of preferred lies vs. playing it down. First of all, just trying to get an idea of how golfers generally play it during the winter. Secondly, I'm looking for feedback as to which is PREFERABLE from a players' standpoint.

In a practice round, playing preferred lies almost guarantees a better score, but is there any practical benefit besides that? Or on the flip side, is playing it down all the time...is THAT doing a disservice to your game? Because sometimes, in playing the ball down, shotmaking options become much more limited, expectations have to be lowered, etc. Generally I think it's good to practice off bare lies and such, but sometimes I end up making super conservative plays that I probably wouldn't under normal conditions.

Since this is not an ethics debate, I don't think these extreme examples of embedded lies or severe mud balls really add anything, in fact bringing these up reflects a bit of touchiness or defensiveness about using winter rules. No need for that. I'm thinking more about the common occurrences, the marginally bad lies that are just all over the course in the winter.

[frozen_rope]

Kev,

Unfortunately, the USGA is not what it used to be.
These days the USGA is more about money than it is about honoring the game. Last year the USGA sold out when it started taking corporate sponsorship dollars for its events.
Anyway, you cite the new "winter rules" rule, where the USGA caved to the pressures of spoiled hackers trying to justify their cheating.
Too many dues paying USGA members wondered why they had to feel guilty about bumping the ball so they wrote their letters with all the testimonials about soft soil at their home course and the USGA sold out by agreeing to make a rule where the "committee" of a local club can get together and declare the course unplayable so that winter rules can be used. Now they can post a sign out by the first tee so the cheaters can feel better about themselves.

KevCarter, on Mar 8 2008, 05:50 PM, said:

Wow 'frozen_rope' ,

Did you happen to see the rule I posted directly from the rule book? Cheating???

Kevin

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 04:20 PM, said:

This thread brought out the usual chorus of excuses for cheating. "Oh , around here the soil is soggy and mud gets on the ball" or, "If it's just a practice round then bumping the ball is o.k.".
The fact remains that the USGA Rules allow for embedded ball relief and casual water relief. Those two points cover any and all unfair conditions during wet season months.

Tenementrock, on Mar 8 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

Let me clear this up a bit. I'm not really trying to judge the ethics of preferred lies vs. playing it down. First of all, just trying to get an idea of how golfers generally play it during the winter. Secondly, I'm looking for feedback as to which is PREFERABLE from a players' standpoint.

In a practice round, playing preferred lies almost guarantees a better score, but is there any practical benefit besides that? Or on the flip side, is playing it down all the time...is THAT doing a disservice to your game? Because sometimes, in playing the ball down, shotmaking options become much more limited, expectations have to be lowered, etc. Generally I think it's good to practice off bare lies and such, but sometimes I end up making super conservative plays that I probably wouldn't under normal conditions.

Since this is not an ethics debate, I don't think these extreme examples of embedded lies or severe mud balls really add anything, in fact bringing these up reflects a bit of touchiness or defensiveness about using winter rules. No need for that. I'm thinking more about the common occurrences, the marginally bad lies that are just all over the course in the winter.

[Swingtheclub]

rope

I do not know what the new rule is. But there have been provisions under local rules for winter rules in the rule book for thiry plus years. If the committe allows it my friend it is not cheating. I wish you had to play on my fairways you would become fond of the rule.

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 06:09 PM, said:

Kev,

Unfortunately, the USGA is not what it used to be.
These days the USGA is more about money than it is about honoring the game. Last year the USGA sold out when it started taking corporate sponsorship dollars for its events.
Anyway, you cite the new "winter rules" rule, where the USGA caved to the pressures of spoiled hackers trying to justify their cheating.
Too many dues paying USGA members wondered why they had to feel guilty about bumping the ball so they wrote their letters with all the testimonials about soft soil at their home course and the USGA sold out by agreeing to make a rule where the "committee" of a local club can get together and declare the course unplayable so that winter rules can be used. Now they can post a sign out by the first tee so the cheaters can feel better about themselves.

KevCarter, on Mar 8 2008, 05:50 PM, said:

Wow 'frozen_rope' ,

Did you happen to see the rule I posted directly from the rule book? Cheating???

Kevin

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 04:20 PM, said:

This thread brought out the usual chorus of excuses for cheating. "Oh , around here the soil is soggy and mud gets on the ball" or, "If it's just a practice round then bumping the ball is o.k.".
The fact remains that the USGA Rules allow for embedded ball relief and casual water relief. Those two points cover any and all unfair conditions during wet season months.

Tenementrock, on Mar 8 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

Let me clear this up a bit. I'm not really trying to judge the ethics of preferred lies vs. playing it down. First of all, just trying to get an idea of how golfers generally play it during the winter. Secondly, I'm looking for feedback as to which is PREFERABLE from a players' standpoint.

In a practice round, playing preferred lies almost guarantees a better score, but is there any practical benefit besides that? Or on the flip side, is playing it down all the time...is THAT doing a disservice to your game? Because sometimes, in playing the ball down, shotmaking options become much more limited, expectations have to be lowered, etc. Generally I think it's good to practice off bare lies and such, but sometimes I end up making super conservative plays that I probably wouldn't under normal conditions.

Since this is not an ethics debate, I don't think these extreme examples of embedded lies or severe mud balls really add anything, in fact bringing these up reflects a bit of touchiness or defensiveness about using winter rules. No need for that. I'm thinking more about the common occurrences, the marginally bad lies that are just all over the course in the winter.

[frozen_rope]

Until recently the USGA never included the words "preferred lies" or "winter rules" in its Rule book.
Again, embedded ball relief and casual water relief were always (and still are) adequate and complete towards insuring fair and level conditions throughout the year.
However, due to recent pressure from dues paying member clubs, the USGA sold out by including the terms "preferred lies" and "winter rules" in its more recent Rule books.
The idea is that those who want to give themselves a better lie can do so without feeling guilty about it, and the USGA will stop getting ridiculous letters from clubs complaining that they have some mud on their fairways and want to bump the ball without being called a cheater. So it's done. The ball kickers and cleaners got what they wanted.
These type threads always amuse me. Over and over I hear the same justifications for bumping the ball, and I hear the guys who separate practice rounds from tournament rounds and how one is different from the other and different rules apply.
If people want to enjoy the game they need to learn some basic fundamentals, spend some time practicing , and then go play the course with the best shots they can manage. If they struggle one day they can practice some more and take a crack at the course another day.
That's when the game is good, that's what the game is about.

kenk7us2002, on Mar 8 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

rope

I do not know what the new rule is. But there have been provisions under local rules for winter rules in the rule book for thiry plus years. If the committe allows it my friend it is not cheating. I wish you had to play on my fairways you would become fond of the rule.

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 06:09 PM, said:

Kev,

Unfortunately, the USGA is not what it used to be.
These days the USGA is more about money than it is about honoring the game. Last year the USGA sold out when it started taking corporate sponsorship dollars for its events.
Anyway, you cite the new "winter rules" rule, where the USGA caved to the pressures of spoiled hackers trying to justify their cheating.
Too many dues paying USGA members wondered why they had to feel guilty about bumping the ball so they wrote their letters with all the testimonials about soft soil at their home course and the USGA sold out by agreeing to make a rule where the "committee" of a local club can get together and declare the course unplayable so that winter rules can be used. Now they can post a sign out by the first tee so the cheaters can feel better about themselves.

KevCarter, on Mar 8 2008, 05:50 PM, said:

Wow 'frozen_rope' ,

Did you happen to see the rule I posted directly from the rule book? Cheating???

Kevin

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 04:20 PM, said:

This thread brought out the usual chorus of excuses for cheating. "Oh , around here the soil is soggy and mud gets on the ball" or, "If it's just a practice round then bumping the ball is o.k.".
The fact remains that the USGA Rules allow for embedded ball relief and casual water relief. Those two points cover any and all unfair conditions during wet season months.

Tenementrock, on Mar 8 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

Let me clear this up a bit. I'm not really trying to judge the ethics of preferred lies vs. playing it down. First of all, just trying to get an idea of how golfers generally play it during the winter. Secondly, I'm looking for feedback as to which is PREFERABLE from a players' standpoint.

In a practice round, playing preferred lies almost guarantees a better score, but is there any practical benefit besides that? Or on the flip side, is playing it down all the time...is THAT doing a disservice to your game? Because sometimes, in playing the ball down, shotmaking options become much more limited, expectations have to be lowered, etc. Generally I think it's good to practice off bare lies and such, but sometimes I end up making super conservative plays that I probably wouldn't under normal conditions.

Since this is not an ethics debate, I don't think these extreme examples of embedded lies or severe mud balls really add anything, in fact bringing these up reflects a bit of touchiness or defensiveness about using winter rules. No need for that. I'm thinking more about the common occurrences, the marginally bad lies that are just all over the course in the winter.

[kevcarter]

Are you serious!?!?!?

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 05:09 PM, said:

Kev,

Unfortunately, the USGA is not what it used to be.
These days the USGA is more about money than it is about honoring the game. Last year the USGA sold out when it started taking corporate sponsorship dollars for its events.
Anyway, you cite the new "winter rules" rule, where the USGA caved to the pressures of spoiled hackers trying to justify their cheating.
Too many dues paying USGA members wondered why they had to feel guilty about bumping the ball so they wrote their letters with all the testimonials about soft soil at their home course and the USGA sold out by agreeing to make a rule where the "committee" of a local club can get together and declare the course unplayable so that winter rules can be used. Now they can post a sign out by the first tee so the cheaters can feel better about themselves.

KevCarter, on Mar 8 2008, 05:50 PM, said:

Wow 'frozen_rope' ,

Did you happen to see the rule I posted directly from the rule book? Cheating???

Kevin

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 04:20 PM, said:

This thread brought out the usual chorus of excuses for cheating. "Oh , around here the soil is soggy and mud gets on the ball" or, "If it's just a practice round then bumping the ball is o.k.".
The fact remains that the USGA Rules allow for embedded ball relief and casual water relief. Those two points cover any and all unfair conditions during wet season months.

Tenementrock, on Mar 8 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

Let me clear this up a bit. I'm not really trying to judge the ethics of preferred lies vs. playing it down. First of all, just trying to get an idea of how golfers generally play it during the winter. Secondly, I'm looking for feedback as to which is PREFERABLE from a players' standpoint.

In a practice round, playing preferred lies almost guarantees a better score, but is there any practical benefit besides that? Or on the flip side, is playing it down all the time...is THAT doing a disservice to your game? Because sometimes, in playing the ball down, shotmaking options become much more limited, expectations have to be lowered, etc. Generally I think it's good to practice off bare lies and such, but sometimes I end up making super conservative plays that I probably wouldn't under normal conditions.

Since this is not an ethics debate, I don't think these extreme examples of embedded lies or severe mud balls really add anything, in fact bringing these up reflects a bit of touchiness or defensiveness about using winter rules. No need for that. I'm thinking more about the common occurrences, the marginally bad lies that are just all over the course in the winter.

[Pinehurst1999]

I think he was serious.

[br61]

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 05:36 PM, said:

Until recently the USGA never included the words "preferred lies" or "winter rules" in its Rule book.
Again, embedded ball relief and casual water relief were always (and still are) adequate and complete towards insuring fair and level conditions throughout the year.
However, due to recent pressure from dues paying member clubs, the USGA sold out by including the terms "preferred lies" and "winter rules" in its more recent Rule books.
The idea is that those who want to give themselves a better lie can do so without feeling guilty about it, and the USGA will stop getting ridiculous letters from clubs complaining that they have some mud on their fairways and want to bump the ball without being called a cheater. So it's done. The ball kickers and cleaners got what they wanted.
These type threads always amuse me. Over and over I hear the same justifications for bumping the ball, and I hear the guys who separate practice rounds from tournament rounds and how one is different from the other and different rules apply.
If people want to enjoy the game they need to learn some basic fundamentals, spend some time practicing , and then go play the course with the best shots they can manage. If they struggle one day they can practice some more and take a crack at the course another day.
That's when the game is good, that's what the game is about.

kenk7us2002, on Mar 8 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

rope

I do not know what the new rule is. But there have been provisions under local rules for winter rules in the rule book for thiry plus years. If the committe allows it my friend it is not cheating. I wish you had to play on my fairways you would become fond of the rule.

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 06:09 PM, said:

Kev,

Unfortunately, the USGA is not what it used to be.
These days the USGA is more about money than it is about honoring the game. Last year the USGA sold out when it started taking corporate sponsorship dollars for its events.
Anyway, you cite the new "winter rules" rule, where the USGA caved to the pressures of spoiled hackers trying to justify their cheating.
Too many dues paying USGA members wondered why they had to feel guilty about bumping the ball so they wrote their letters with all the testimonials about soft soil at their home course and the USGA sold out by agreeing to make a rule where the "committee" of a local club can get together and declare the course unplayable so that winter rules can be used. Now they can post a sign out by the first tee so the cheaters can feel better about themselves.

KevCarter, on Mar 8 2008, 05:50 PM, said:

Wow 'frozen_rope' ,

Did you happen to see the rule I posted directly from the rule book? Cheating???

Kevin

frozen_rope, on Mar 8 2008, 04:20 PM, said:

This thread brought out the usual chorus of excuses for cheating. "Oh , around here the soil is soggy and mud gets on the ball" or, "If it's just a practice round then bumping the ball is o.k.".
The fact remains that the USGA Rules allow for embedded ball relief and casual water relief. Those two points cover any and all unfair conditions during wet season months.

Tenementrock, on Mar 8 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

Let me clear this up a bit. I'm not really trying to judge the ethics of preferred lies vs. playing it down. First of all, just trying to get an idea of how golfers generally play it during the winter. Secondly, I'm looking for feedback as to which is PREFERABLE from a players' standpoint.

In a practice round, playing preferred lies almost guarantees a better score, but is there any practical benefit besides that? Or on the flip side, is playing it down all the time...is THAT doing a disservice to your game? Because sometimes, in playing the ball down, shotmaking options become much more limited, expectations have to be lowered, etc. Generally I think it's good to practice off bare lies and such, but sometimes I end up making super conservative plays that I probably wouldn't under normal conditions.

Since this is not an ethics debate, I don't think these extreme examples of embedded lies or severe mud balls really add anything, in fact bringing these up reflects a bit of touchiness or defensiveness about using winter rules. No need for that. I'm thinking more about the common occurrences, the marginally bad lies that are just all over the course in the winter.

Wanna come and play with me tomorrow? I can guarantee you won't shoot within 10-20 shots of your handicap playing it down in the fairways around these parts. Oh wait, I forgot that you might miss every fairways and still can play decently. I'm guessing you're from south and laughing at us.

I'm a STRONG supporter playing by summer rules but playing in these kind of mudball conditions is ridiculous and not fun at all. It defeats the purpose of enjoyment from playing golf whenever one could in colder climates.

This is the last post that I'm making in this thread due to few idiots.

[drpino]

frozen_rope,

are you on the Executive Committee of the USGA? Do you know first hand that letters from "whiny" member clubs were the impetus behind any rule modifications/additions you believe happened recently?

it seems you like to make a lot of absolute assumptions as to why things are and/or how they happen (Ping's manufacturing and pricing policy, Tiger's swing changes, "Winter Rules") without really being in a position to know.