8453 replies to this topic

[fats]

A friend of mine just got back from two days with Geoff. As I understand it, he has one student after another all swinging as beautifully as the student in the video. All of them started with Geoff from a young age, and he was their only teacher. We are going to hear A LOT about Geoff in the coming years!

Kevin


Which brings up an interesting point.  I remember an excellent teacher in the Orlando area years ago who was always available...one day I showed up at his place and there were 39 pros there all getting lessons.  LOL

So I think I'll go and see Ol' Slice while the gittin' is good!!!!

[banshee]

When working on the 9-3 drill, what do you work on first? Solid contact or core speed?

[PurePursuit]

I'd say solid contact is your first priority.

[banshee]

slicefixer, on Mar 2 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

<br />

larrybud, on Mar 2 2008, 09:27 PM, said:

slicefixer, on Mar 2 2008, 02:07 AM, said:

LOL.........&quot;trouble&quot;.......big pain in the a** is what it was.......LOL........if not for Pete's help it would not be here.....I'd have given up......THANK YOU Pete!!!  (he spent over 6 hours of his time to get this done) <img src="style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />  But, here it is......<img src="style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

<br />Slice, when you're working with your students, can you name 2 or 3 of the more common faults in doing this drill, and what the result of the ball flight is when it's done incorrectly?  <br /><br />IOW, it's easy as hell to think that one is doing this correctly, but unless you know what to look for, you really don't know.<br />

<br /><br /><br />Well, to be honest, IF the player SETS UP properly it's pretty hard to screw up........it's just a &quot;turn and a turn&quot;.......back and through.....while maintaining your address &quot;angles&quot; and ALLOWING the clubhead to square up on it's on......<br /><br />If I had to say one thing that gets fouled up the most is that people don't allow the arms to &quot;swing&quot; and the club to &quot;set&quot; to a 90 to the left arm by &quot;9 O'clock&quot;.......too &quot;stiff armed&quot;.......another is they aren't &quot;winding up&quot; or feeling any stretch in the torso/core, specifically the &quot;left side&quot;........you want to feel the left side being stretched (I call it &quot;the rubber band&quot;.....Mr. Hogan described it as a &quot;piece of elastic&quot;) and the arms reacting and the club &quot;setting&quot; and all of it working together to a &quot;stretched and set&quot; position at 9 O'clock........and, initially at least, the most important thing is SOLID contact with compression and the direction isn't that big of a deal........once SOLID contact is created on a consistent basis then, in the backswing, you can add some left forearm rotation to &quot;shallow the shaft and open up the toe a bit more&quot; and you can then, in the &quot;downswing,&quot; &quot;speed it up&quot; a LOT.........another misconception is that you must &quot;stop&quot; at 3......nothing could be further from the truth.........if the PIVOT &quot;carries the arms&quot; to 2, 1, midnight, then great.......just makes sure its the pivot that is primarily responsible for the arms &quot;getting to the finish&quot; and NOT the arms themselves.......<br /><br />Also, VERY important to KNOW that it's NOT the left arm POINTING to 9 O'clock (it's on about a 45 to the target line and the trunk due to the right arm folding) at 9, nor is the right arm pointing at 3 O'clock as it's really more &quot;waist high and left&quot;........it's 9 O'clock HIGH and then 3 O'clock HIGH (more or less waist high) in the finish........<br /><br /><img src="style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Can you describe your "proper SET UP?"

[slicefixer]

banshee, on Mar 3 2008, 12:17 PM, said:

When working on the 9-3 drill, what do you work on first? Solid contact or core speed?

S O L I D strike.......MOST golfers don't even know whattha' hell it feels like to TRULY COMPRESS a golf ball.........and they NEVER will as they are TRYING to hit that sucka' as hard as they can BEFORE they understand the FEEL of a  proper impact....the MECHANICS of a proper impact aren't INGRAINED......once you CAN achieve a proper impact THEN you can work on "speed"........most do it a** backwards......they try and make FULL swings when they can't even hit a 20 yard pitch properly......

Edited by slicefixer, 03 March 2008 - 11:50 AM.

[slicefixer]

banshee, on Mar 3 2008, 12:21 PM, said:

slicefixer, on Mar 2 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

<br />

larrybud, on Mar 2 2008, 09:27 PM, said:

slicefixer, on Mar 2 2008, 02:07 AM, said:

LOL.........&quot;trouble&quot;.......big pain in the a** is what it was.......LOL........if not for Pete's help it would not be here.....I'd have given up......THANK YOU Pete!!!  (he spent over 6 hours of his time to get this done) <img src="style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />  But, here it is......<img src="style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

<br />Slice, when you're working with your students, can you name 2 or 3 of the more common faults in doing this drill, and what the result of the ball flight is when it's done incorrectly?  <br /><br />IOW, it's easy as hell to think that one is doing this correctly, but unless you know what to look for, you really don't know.<br />

<br /><br /><br />Well, to be honest, IF the player SETS UP properly it's pretty hard to screw up........it's just a &quot;turn and a turn&quot;.......back and through.....while maintaining your address &quot;angles&quot; and ALLOWING the clubhead to square up on it's on......<br /><br />If I had to say one thing that gets fouled up the most is that people don't allow the arms to &quot;swing&quot; and the club to &quot;set&quot; to a 90 to the left arm by &quot;9 O'clock&quot;.......too &quot;stiff armed&quot;.......another is they aren't &quot;winding up&quot; or feeling any stretch in the torso/core, specifically the &quot;left side&quot;........you want to feel the left side being stretched (I call it &quot;the rubber band&quot;.....Mr. Hogan described it as a &quot;piece of elastic&quot;) and the arms reacting and the club &quot;setting&quot; and all of it working together to a &quot;stretched and set&quot; position at 9 O'clock........and, initially at least, the most important thing is SOLID contact with compression and the direction isn't that big of a deal........once SOLID contact is created on a consistent basis then, in the backswing, you can add some left forearm rotation to &quot;shallow the shaft and open up the toe a bit more&quot; and you can then, in the &quot;downswing,&quot; &quot;speed it up&quot; a LOT.........another misconception is that you must &quot;stop&quot; at 3......nothing could be further from the truth.........if the PIVOT &quot;carries the arms&quot; to 2, 1, midnight, then great.......just makes sure its the pivot that is primarily responsible for the arms &quot;getting to the finish&quot; and NOT the arms themselves.......<br /><br />Also, VERY important to KNOW that it's NOT the left arm POINTING to 9 O'clock (it's on about a 45 to the target line and the trunk due to the right arm folding) at 9, nor is the right arm pointing at 3 O'clock as it's really more &quot;waist high and left&quot;........it's 9 O'clock HIGH and then 3 O'clock HIGH (more or less waist high) in the finish........<br /><br /><img src="style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Can you describe your "proper SET UP?"

email........

[slicefixer]

mizuno67, on Mar 3 2008, 08:16 AM, said:

slicefixer, on Mar 3 2008, 06:48 AM, said:

Dariuz.......you observation IS correct and it's easy to explain why they are not as open, etc......the following should answer your questions, statements.... ..

"Second, I cannot agree that all SF's students look identically to Mr.Hogan. Some of them have their bodies just less open at impact that it is necessary to emulate what Hogan did. Mind you, there is a staight correlation between the body angle at impact and the amount of having both arms in front of the body. Mr. Hogan had a open body at impact and his right arm was not in front of his body"........

Mr. Hogan swung from a VERY upright posture, hence there wasn't the "room" for his right elbow to be in front of his right hip as with most......but, it was NOT behind him either.......IMOP, again, Hardy is WRONG......and I can easily PROVE it in about 5 minutes........

Secondly, Mr. Hogan played from a position that was substantially more laid off and the clubface was very open at the top than I KNOW is necessary (primary reason trying to COPY him won't work for MOST) to ingrain the "essence" of his swing and get the same results.......hence he could "open up" faster than "my" players (he HAD to or he'd have sliced it).......I don't teach folk's to open the face and lay it off as much as Mr. Hogan was within his swing as I figured out it was NOT necessary to "ingrain the essence" of his swing......you CAN develop a golf swing that contains the "essence" of his swing (rotational "speed" WITH "clubface control" = "control" of the golf ball AND distance/power) WITHOUT laying it off and opening it up nearly as much, if at all.....

Another thing, I'm NOT interested in trying to produce "Hogan clones"....."copies".......that NEVER works........"ya' paint the picture with YOUR talents/abilities LEARNING and INGRAINING the "common denominators" found in almost all great ballstrikers"........Mr. Hogan just happens to be the most famous and probably the best overall example.......

One other thing, the "base" 9 to 3" is learned with the face more perpendicular to the ARC/path so as to make it EASY to square the face and compress the ball.......once that is ingrained we learn to rotate the left forearm which "opens up the face and shallows the shaft" which allows for a "full 100% release" of the club (Physics REALLY takes over and releases the clubface around and left) through a lot more aggressive rotation through the ball which opens up the trunk more through impact..........it's a "one piece at a time process".......done in PHASES with PATIENCE/PASSION........the folk's that do it end up with very, very good golf swings that will contain the "common denominators" of great ballstrikers and the "essence of Mr. Hogan's golf swing......

One OTHER thing, you show me anybody that CAN PLAY that's closer to Mr. Hogan than Matt and I want to see it......LOTS of TERRIBLE "imitations" on YouTube almost all made by "teachers" trying to stir up business.....and NOT a one of em' can really play and he CAN..........

Well i think its a very close to hogan id say 95%   matt has less lateral motion but what i find interesting is i actually see matt being more open with his body halfway down and hogan catching up at impact   i certainly don't see matt being less open than hogan
In all a fantastic swing and technically close to perfect
Bwtf would i know

I don't even know if it's 95% as we've NEVER tried to copy/emulate Mr. Hogan (I see several diffences, but, the vast majority of it is Hogan 100%)...........he's just learned/ingrained what I've taught him and his swing ended up lookin a lot like Mr. Hogan's........but, I have NO doubt that IF we worked on copying his swing he'd get it 99.9% down, but, in the process he's lose HIS swing and probably not be as good a PLAYER.......and he's already the best ballstriker, BY FAR, that I've ever seen in my lifetime ( and I've played with 50 or so PGA Tour winners, 11 major champs, all 4 majors, etc.)......and that's what I'm trying to help people become, better PLAYERS and I don't give a crap what their swing "looks like" beyond the impact zone........

Edited by slicefixer, 03 March 2008 - 11:55 AM.

[sky72]

So SF, what are some feels/images to produce more rotation in the golf swing?  All thoughts are appreciated!  sky72

[slicefixer]

sky72, on Mar 3 2008, 12:57 PM, said:

So SF, what are some feels/images to produce more rotation in the golf swing?  All thoughts are appreciated!  sky72

Swing a sawed off broom/mop.......the baseball drill is great........feet almost together, less than 6" is great........hitting it HARD from a 9 O'clock backswing is great........"slammin' a door" is a great image........

Edited by slicefixer, 03 March 2008 - 12:01 PM.

[banshee]

Thanks for the reply slice, just a few more questions regarding the 9-3 drill if you don't mind.

1) On the back swing, do you wind up as much as possible while keeping the arms at 9 o'clock?  What I mean is should my left side feel like it can't be stretched any more?

2) Right after impact, should the club face continue low and down the target line as long as possible, or should it start going left right away?

3) On the finish, should I try to fully unwind?

Thanks in advance.  Your instructions are priceless.

[kevcarter]

sky72, on Mar 3 2008, 10:57 AM, said:

So SF, what are some feels/images to produce more rotation in the golf swing?  All thoughts are appreciated!  sky72

In an effort to save Slice some time. Here is a repost of a collection of his posts in Word format. Great reading!!!

[slicefixer]

Thanks for the reply slice, just a few more questions regarding the 9-3 drill if you don't mind.

No worries, my pleasure......



1) On the back swing, do you wind up as much as possible while keeping the arms at 9 o'clock?  What I mean is should my left side feel like it can't be stretched any more?

Not to the maximum stretch, but, you should feel a bit of stretch......and you "use the stretch" to "unwind"......



2) Right after impact, should the club face continue low and down the target line as long as possible, or should it start going left right away?

Right away.........the clubhead swings on an "inside to inside" arc/path.......but, it WILL feel "low".......and that it's traveling "around" being pulled by the core and arms working together............



3) On the finish, should I try to fully unwind?

No, it stops when it stops.......meaning that when the right shoulder stops the arms stop with it........but, you don't feel like your "stopping"......the rotation just slows and ceases.......the more aggressively you unwind the further around you'll finish and the more "release" of the arms/club you'll feel........meaning you finish at, or around, 3 O'clock when doing it at slow speed within' the basic drill........once you are good at it you can "turn up the volume" and unwind a bit more aggressively into a finish at 2 or 1, etc.


Thanks in advance.  Your instructions are priceless.

Your most welcome........

Edited by slicefixer, 03 March 2008 - 12:37 PM.

[avrag]

slicefixer, on Mar 3 2008, 05:06 AM, said:

Well, just let the left forearm rotate and the right arm will fold.......if ya' gripped it correctly the rest should take care of itself

Slicefixer, thank you so much for helping us all.

And, to quote Mr. Hogan,

"if you don't mind...",

here's a question about a detail that is hard to see on the video.
How much should the left forearm actually rotate in the backswing of the the 9 to 3 drill? Where should the back of the left hand point to, when the hands reach "9 o'clock high"? Should it be vertical, or should there be more rotation, so that the back of the left hand actually points a little skyward?

Btw, your instruction made me realize for the first time how incredibly way too steep my backswing was. Now I can actually see how low tour players keep their hands on the top of their back swing, barely higher than the top of their head, some only ear high actually. I never could SEE that before, it only came with the new feeling of "rotation" i am getting now. "rotation, rotation, rotation"   , all that matters, really.

[PurePursuit]

"
Well, just let the left forearm rotate and the right arm will fold.......if ya' gripped it correctly the rest should take care of itself......I make a deal out of an aluminum door jam, velcro, and PVC insulation that's basically "Norman's Secret," but. a LOT better because you can set up normal and it's custom fit to your wrist and the amount of set you can create........works great.......takes 5 minutes and costs $3.....wink.gif"

that should answer one part of your question..

[slicefixer]

Slicefixer, thank you so much for helping us all.

And, to quote Mr. Hogan,

"if you don't mind...",

here's a question about a detail that is hard to see on the video.
How much should the left forearm actually rotate in the backswing of the the 9 to 3 drill? Where should the back of the left hand point to, when the hands reach "9 o'clock high"? Should it be vertical, or should there be more rotation, so that the back of the left hand actually points a little skyward?

Just depends on what your trying to accomplish and "where you are" at present..........I don't teach beginners to rotate the left forearm at first......just basically a lil' pivot with their arms swinging a bit.....the clubface stays more square to the ARC/path.......basically a pitch.........then when they get it down we learn some left forearm rotation so as to get the club/face on plane so that they can really rip it and let the pivot release the arms/club/clubface.......

Btw, your instruction made me realize for the first time how incredibly way too steep my backswing was. Now I can actually see how low tour players keep their hands on the top of their back swing, barely higher than the top of their head, some only ear high actually. I never could SEE that before, it only came with the new feeling of "rotation" i am getting now. "rotation, rotation, rotation"   , all that matters, really.

Well, IMOP it IS the "best way for MOST to swing a golf club"........it's a helluva' LOT more efficient than "braking and slinging" or "braking and blocking" or, even worse, "braking and hitting"......for MOST anyway.........and IMOP.......

[gonjam24]

How to make a norman secret with the supplies you mentioned

[WorkingOnIt]

Slice, thanks for all of tips you are posting and the videos.  Mr. Hogan's swing has always been my favorite and I think you are really breaking down some of the key elements.  Your student Matt has a wonderful swing, congrats to both of you.

[procomboil]

Guys,

I could do with some help here for some reason the video on youtube only plays the first 15 seconds or so......

please help!!!!!

Thanks

[dminn23]

procomboil, on Mar 3 2008, 02:09 PM, said:

Guys,

I could do with some help here for some reason the video on youtube only plays the first 15 seconds or so......

please help!!!!!

Thanks

Must be due to bandwidth issues on your internet connection.  Try it on another LAN line somewhere else or low volume times in your community.  I have had no issues viewing the video in its entiredy.

[teespoon]

Great thread!

Slicefixer is on the money with his thoughts and teachings.

  My swing is not really much more than your 9=3 drill with stance a litlle less than shoulder width.  So  it must be as we get older. ..and older.  (68)

   Keep up the good posts and we all learn something

teespoon

[juansky]

What happened to the volume....I cant hear anything?

[6t4gt0]

I read posts like this and realize I know didly squat about the golf swing, I just aim and go but I do remember the first lesson (after knee surgery) I took and the pro had me doing this type of drill 9:00 to 3:00 and he had me think toe up to toe up. I forgot how well I used to hit it with this little swing, don't remember much other than toe up to toe up but I will put this in my practice routine again.

[juansky]

Well, I didn't see anything eye opening. I've seen this drill many times......although it's not easy to do. Things to take into consideration is not moving the pelvic pivot forward. need to keep the head behind the ball through impact. Don't start the down swing from the top...but let the hands drop to about waist high and then wallop the ball for crisp contact, need to make sure the left side of the hip clears properly. So not as easy as it looks..............

[slicefixer]

juansky, on Mar 3 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

Well, I didn't see anything eye opening. I've seen this drill many times......although it's not easy to do. Things to take into consideration is not moving the pelvic pivot forward. need to keep the head behind the ball through impact. Don't start the down swing from the top...but let the hands drop to about waist high and then wallop the ball for crisp contact, need to make sure the left side of the hip clears properly. So not as easy as it looks..............

Well, maybe not in the exact way I teach it though.........and once you get the basic "framwork" of the 9 to 3 down cold you can then perform just about ANY swing drill from this basic framework.......

"Things to take into consideration is not moving the pelvic pivot forward"

Yep, weight is set left and stays there.......but in a more full version there is a weight transition......watch the kid with the Ignite staff bag sitting beside him..........

"but let the hands drop to about waist high"

The hands/arms are PULLED down by the pivot.......it could easily be described as "dropping," but, they are actually being PULLED "downplane"........IF you feel that you have to "drop and THEN turn" your arms are "out of synch".........

All in all, your correct......nothing revolutionary and I never said it was.........

And there is no volume as I had about 10  people in my bldg. at the time I was burning the stuff to dvd........wouldn't have worked unless you wanted to hear 5 or em' talking politics and the other 5 playing......

Edited by slicefixer, 03 March 2008 - 03:44 PM.

[dminn23]

I thought the most intriguing part (for me) of the drill was how the back of the right hand faced the target in the 3 o'clock position, arms left of chest, club shaft pretty vertical, not as much tilted to the left, with the shoulders square to target.  Should I strive to end up there or am I misinterpreting the drill due to looking at it from the angles in the video.  

Obviously the finish tells you a lot about how you got there so I *think* this should be important to me.

Edited by dminn23, 03 March 2008 - 04:42 PM.

[rankoutsider]

there might be nothing revolutionary in the drill (although i had the priviledge of learning it from slice himself, so i do feel i know about 10 different aspects of it that you can't really "learn" unless he watches you do it and corrects that-- still, his explanations have been fantastic) but there doesn't have to be to make it effective.  

in my opinion, this is the best way to learn the swing and to groove it yourself-- find the release and work backwards to a fuller swing.  this is so much better than someone telling you to "get your elbow here on the backswing" or "keep your head steady" with no clear picture of how you get the club through the impact zone from that point.  and guys who are talking about "taking little swings" -- that isn't the point of the drill at all, but that has already been covered a few times now.

rank

[juansky]

I was in my back yard trying out what you said about the pivot and arms working together. I'm starting to feel as though my pivot is what makes contact with the ball. It feels like my pivot rotates around my left hip and my hands release around my body instead of releasing towards the target....does that sound right? Or am I doing it wrong.....thanks!

slicefixer, on Mar 3 2008, 03:24 PM, said:

juansky, on Mar 3 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

Well, I didn't see anything eye opening. I've seen this drill many times......although it's not easy to do. Things to take into consideration is not moving the pelvic pivot forward. need to keep the head behind the ball through impact. Don't start the down swing from the top...but let the hands drop to about waist high and then wallop the ball for crisp contact, need to make sure the left side of the hip clears properly. So not as easy as it looks..............

Well, maybe not in the exact way I teach it though.........and once you get the basic "framwork" of the 9 to 3 down cold you can then perform just about ANY swing drill from this basic framework.......

"Things to take into consideration is not moving the pelvic pivot forward"

Yep, weight is set left and stays there.......but in a more full version there is a weight transition......watch the kid with the Ignite staff bag sitting beside him..........

"but let the hands drop to about waist high"

The hands/arms are PULLED down by the pivot.......it could easily be described as "dropping," but, they are actually being PULLED "downplane"........IF you feel that you have to "drop and THEN turn" your arms are "out of synch".........

All in all, your correct......nothing revolutionary and I never said it was.........

And there is no volume as I had about 10  people in my bldg. at the time I was burning the stuff to dvd........wouldn't have worked unless you wanted to hear 5 or em' talking politics and the other 5 playing......

[Golfdog]

Mr. Fixer,

Thanks for posting that vid. There is a lot of helpful stuff in there. I'm not sure why these little pissing contests pop up in these threads so often. I'm glad you're willing to stay above the fray and help us hackers.  

[rankoutsider]

juansky, on Mar 3 2008, 06:08 PM, said:

I was in my back yard trying out what you said about the pivot and arms working together. I'm starting to feel as though my pivot is what makes contact with the ball. It feels like my pivot rotates around my left hip and my hands release around my body instead of releasing towards the target....does that sound right? Or am I doing it wrong.....thanks!

slicefixer, on Mar 3 2008, 03:24 PM, said:

juansky, on Mar 3 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

Well, I didn't see anything eye opening. I've seen this drill many times......although it's not easy to do. Things to take into consideration is not moving the pelvic pivot forward. need to keep the head behind the ball through impact. Don't start the down swing from the top...but let the hands drop to about waist high and then wallop the ball for crisp contact, need to make sure the left side of the hip clears properly. So not as easy as it looks..............

Well, maybe not in the exact way I teach it though.........and once you get the basic "framwork" of the 9 to 3 down cold you can then perform just about ANY swing drill from this basic framework.......

"Things to take into consideration is not moving the pelvic pivot forward"

Yep, weight is set left and stays there.......but in a more full version there is a weight transition......watch the kid with the Ignite staff bag sitting beside him..........

"but let the hands drop to about waist high"

The hands/arms are PULLED down by the pivot.......it could easily be described as "dropping," but, they are actually being PULLED "downplane"........IF you feel that you have to "drop and THEN turn" your arms are "out of synch".........

All in all, your correct......nothing revolutionary and I never said it was.........

And there is no volume as I had about 10  people in my bldg. at the time I was burning the stuff to dvd........wouldn't have worked unless you wanted to hear 5 or em' talking politics and the other 5 playing......

slice can answer when he has a minute, but my understanding is that this is the perfect feeling you are trying to ingrain.  club releases to the left as the hands/arms turn with the body.  exactly right.

[slicefixer]

juansky, on Mar 3 2008, 06:08 PM, said:

I was in my back yard trying out what you said about the pivot and arms working together. I'm starting to feel as though my pivot is what makes contact with the ball. It feels like my pivot rotates around my left hip and my hands release around my body instead of releasing towards the target....does that sound right? Or am I doing it wrong.....thanks!

slicefixer, on Mar 3 2008, 03:24 PM, said:

juansky, on Mar 3 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

Well, I didn't see anything eye opening. I've seen this drill many times......although it's not easy to do. Things to take into consideration is not moving the pelvic pivot forward. need to keep the head behind the ball through impact. Don't start the down swing from the top...but let the hands drop to about waist high and then wallop the ball for crisp contact, need to make sure the left side of the hip clears properly. So not as easy as it looks..............

Well, maybe not in the exact way I teach it though.........and once you get the basic "framwork" of the 9 to 3 down cold you can then perform just about ANY swing drill from this basic framework.......

"Things to take into consideration is not moving the pelvic pivot forward"

Yep, weight is set left and stays there.......but in a more full version there is a weight transition......watch the kid with the Ignite staff bag sitting beside him..........

"but let the hands drop to about waist high"

The hands/arms are PULLED down by the pivot.......it could easily be described as "dropping," but, they are actually being PULLED "downplane"........IF you feel that you have to "drop and THEN turn" your arms are "out of synch".........

All in all, your correct......nothing revolutionary and I never said it was.........

And there is no volume as I had about 10  people in my bldg. at the time I was burning the stuff to dvd........wouldn't have worked unless you wanted to hear 5 or em' talking politics and the other 5 playing......

Your DEAD ON Juan........dead on.......