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One Length irons - Cobra - any feedback ?


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#391 artica

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 05:08 PM

2nd report on the z545's vs the F7 ONE

I worked with course pro today for 30 minutes, i told him about the iron experiment and he said go for it. So i used only the 4i from both sets.
*as a side note, all we worked on was back swing keeping forearm/chest/hand triangle longer and butt end of iron at top inside the ball.
Contact was a lot better. Significantly better if i can show some excitement because this helped me attain better comparisons.

Went after the same 190 target (about 15 yards front to back, flag is in the front, so about 200 to 185 front to back side to side)

Srixon z545's 4i - Longer. Routinely over the circle, about 50% hit target (still had 2-3 shots that were EXTREMELY bad).
Cobra F7 ONE 4i - Not as long. Averaged about 195yds. Flew lower, hit target area about 70% of the time, bad shots were playable.
*I was close to asking him to hold my phone and video the target and my shots, but he does it for free (i buy him beers and dinner every so often when we play)
*Some bad face wind today so that didn't help either with the distance issues

Srixon z545's 9i - darts. I hit about 8 shots and only missed "green" once.
Cobra F7 ONE 9i - Struggled with hooks. did hit my closest ball to pin with these. But probably 50% hit green, while the others just drew way too much on me
*again, wind was ugly so with the F7's flying extremely high that might have played on a role

I'm on the fence with these. I've tried the forged one length, and really felt the forgiveness with those for some like me was lacking big time.
As for the F7's I'm struggling with the high loft irons, i consider struggling since those are the scoring irons.

My current thought on this is there's definitely something about the low lofted irons that i love.
If Cobra comes out with another set, i might go for the 4-6 irons at about 37.25", and standard length irons in the 8-gw.
This might also need to be a combo set as in F7's 4-6 forged 8-gw.

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M1 460 9.5 - AD MT 6S
Cobra F7 3w - HZRDUS black 75s
Cobra Baffler F6 5w -  Diamana D+ 82s
Cobra F7 ONE 4-PW - C-Taper 120 Stiff
Mack Daddy 2 - 52*, 58* TG - DG Wedge
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#392 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 05:20 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 14 November 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

View Postelwhippy, on 14 November 2017 - 03:35 AM, said:

I can safely say not one of our local stores has sold a set. The odd person tries the demo and that is it. An interesting concept but I can only see it being effective for a tall player with an upright, and very consistent swing.

It is a very interesting concept, for sure.  And we are just in the infant stages of development.  I'm not too convinced by the current models, but with another decade of tinkering from the OEMs I could see it becoming a huge part of the game.  It helps with contact in the low irons, there is no doubt about that.  However, I think your comment is dead, 100% on - if you stink, why are you trying to make yourself swing the same way every time?  It stinks.  At least if its not the same you get to hit good shots by accident once in a while.  If your not good, less control (not more) is the answer.  That's why golf is so hard - it seems one way, but its actually another.

If you can't aim straight (And virtually none of my high cap playing partners aim anywhere close to straight), why do you want a club that is easier to hit straight?

Anyway, hopefully this thread keeps getting updated.  SL is neat.  Hopefully keep posting their (realistic) experiences with it.  The potential for the technology (especially in the low irons) is massive.

Really? If you play single length and aren’t very good the fact you try and swing the same way every time doesn’t limit you to just that crappy swing every time. You’re gonna hit good shots and bad shots no matter the club length. Alignment is an important fundamental no doubt but don’t confuse hitting straight to hitting where you’re looking.

The more times you swing a certain way the more ingrained that swing becomes. When you stink a repeating swing is literally damaging you.
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XR 15*, XR 19*

s300:
Burner Rescue 22*, 25*
a4 Forged 5-PW (1* weak, 3* up, -1.25")
Engage 52*, 58* (4* up)

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#393 BiggErn

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 05:38 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 14 November 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

View Postelwhippy, on 14 November 2017 - 03:35 AM, said:

I can safely say not one of our local stores has sold a set. The odd person tries the demo and that is it. An interesting concept but I can only see it being effective for a tall player with an upright, and very consistent swing.

It is a very interesting concept, for sure.  And we are just in the infant stages of development.  I'm not too convinced by the current models, but with another decade of tinkering from the OEMs I could see it becoming a huge part of the game.  It helps with contact in the low irons, there is no doubt about that.  However, I think your comment is dead, 100% on - if you stink, why are you trying to make yourself swing the same way every time?  It stinks.  At least if its not the same you get to hit good shots by accident once in a while.  If your not good, less control (not more) is the answer.  That's why golf is so hard - it seems one way, but its actually another.

If you can't aim straight (And virtually none of my high cap playing partners aim anywhere close to straight), why do you want a club that is easier to hit straight?

Anyway, hopefully this thread keeps getting updated.  SL is neat.  Hopefully keep posting their (realistic) experiences with it.  The potential for the technology (especially in the low irons) is massive.

Really? If you play single length and aren’t very good the fact you try and swing the same way every time doesn’t limit you to just that crappy swing every time. You’re gonna hit good shots and bad shots no matter the club length. Alignment is an important fundamental no doubt but don’t confuse hitting straight to hitting where you’re looking.

The more times you swing a certain way the more ingrained that swing becomes. When you stink a repeating swing is literally damaging you.

What does that have to do with the length of club?

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#394 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:08 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 14 November 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 14 November 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

View Postelwhippy, on 14 November 2017 - 03:35 AM, said:

I can safely say not one of our local stores has sold a set. The odd person tries the demo and that is it. An interesting concept but I can only see it being effective for a tall player with an upright, and very consistent swing.

It is a very interesting concept, for sure.  And we are just in the infant stages of development.  I'm not too convinced by the current models, but with another decade of tinkering from the OEMs I could see it becoming a huge part of the game.  It helps with contact in the low irons, there is no doubt about that.  However, I think your comment is dead, 100% on - if you stink, why are you trying to make yourself swing the same way every time?  It stinks.  At least if its not the same you get to hit good shots by accident once in a while.  If your not good, less control (not more) is the answer.  That's why golf is so hard - it seems one way, but its actually another.

If you can't aim straight (And virtually none of my high cap playing partners aim anywhere close to straight), why do you want a club that is easier to hit straight?

Anyway, hopefully this thread keeps getting updated.  SL is neat.  Hopefully keep posting their (realistic) experiences with it.  The potential for the technology (especially in the low irons) is massive.

Really? If you play single length and aren’t very good the fact you try and swing the same way every time doesn’t limit you to just that crappy swing every time. You’re gonna hit good shots and bad shots no matter the club length. Alignment is an important fundamental no doubt but don’t confuse hitting straight to hitting where you’re looking.

The more times you swing a certain way the more ingrained that swing becomes. When you stink a repeating swing is literally damaging you.

What does that have to do with the length of club?

It was in response to "same stance, same plane, same swing".  That's not good if your stance, plane and swing stink. You'll have a much higher chance of getting lucky with VL.
Kuro Kage Blue 60 X:
M2 10*
XR 15*, XR 19*

s300:
Burner Rescue 22*, 25*
a4 Forged 5-PW (1* weak, 3* up, -1.25")
Engage 52*, 58* (4* up)

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#395 Stonewalled

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:18 PM

View Postartica, on 14 November 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

2nd report on the z545's vs the F7 ONE

I worked with course pro today for 30 minutes, i told him about the iron experiment and he said go for it. So i used only the 4i from both sets.
*as a side note, all we worked on was back swing keeping forearm/chest/hand triangle longer and butt end of iron at top inside the ball.
Contact was a lot better. Significantly better if i can show some excitement because this helped me attain better comparisons.

Went after the same 190 target (about 15 yards front to back, flag is in the front, so about 200 to 185 front to back side to side)

Srixon z545's 4i - Longer. Routinely over the circle, about 50% hit target (still had 2-3 shots that were EXTREMELY bad).
Cobra F7 ONE 4i - Not as long. Averaged about 195yds. Flew lower, hit target area about 70% of the time, bad shots were playable.
*I was close to asking him to hold my phone and video the target and my shots, but he does it for free (i buy him beers and dinner every so often when we play)
*Some bad face wind today so that didn't help either with the distance issues

Srixon z545's 9i - darts. I hit about 8 shots and only missed "green" once.
Cobra F7 ONE 9i - Struggled with hooks. did hit my closest ball to pin with these. But probably 50% hit green, while the others just drew way too much on me
*again, wind was ugly so with the F7's flying extremely high that might have played on a role

I'm on the fence with these. I've tried the forged one length, and really felt the forgiveness with those for some like me was lacking big time.
As for the F7's I'm struggling with the high loft irons, i consider struggling since those are the scoring irons.

My current thought on this is there's definitely something about the low lofted irons that i love.
If Cobra comes out with another set, i might go for the 4-6 irons at about 37.25", and standard length irons in the 8-gw.
This might also need to be a combo set as in F7's 4-6 forged 8-gw.
Thanks for the test. I have yet to hit my set, winter and sore back isn't helping.  

The shorter  long irons  seem to make the most sense to me, less height but a ball in the fairway is a good thing.

Not sure how the short irons will work for me, but i will try them.

Pretty happy with my current set up but have wanted to try this concept and i got the irons cheap so i'm going to give it a go.

Wonder how say 37 inch long irons and 36 inch short irons would work out?  Might have to adjust the weights and lie a bit.


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#396 BiggErn

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:59 PM

Your logic is flawed. I guess if you hit your variable length 7 iron bad one time may as well throw it away.

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#397 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 08:11 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 14 November 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Your logic is flawed. I guess if you hit your variable length 7 iron bad one time may as well throw it away.

You shouldn't throw it away, but if you typically hit bad shots you shouldn't have "consistency" as a priority when choosing equipment.
Kuro Kage Blue 60 X:
M2 10*
XR 15*, XR 19*

s300:
Burner Rescue 22*, 25*
a4 Forged 5-PW (1* weak, 3* up, -1.25")
Engage 52*, 58* (4* up)

Fitted Edel

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#398 BiggErn

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 08:52 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 08:11 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 14 November 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Your logic is flawed. I guess if you hit your variable length 7 iron bad one time may as well throw it away.

You shouldn't throw it away, but if you typically hit bad shots you shouldn't have "consistency" as a priority when choosing equipment.

Again your logic is a little flawed. Everyone hits bad shots. Everyone hits good shots. Everyone wants to consistently hit more good, solid shots and consistently hit less bad shots while lessening the severity of the bad shots. There’s a segment of golfers that are gonna play terrible no matter what equipment they use and I don’t think it’s logical to use them to support your argument against single length clubs.

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#399 alfriday

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:14 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 08:11 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 14 November 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Your logic is flawed. I guess if you hit your variable length 7 iron bad one time may as well throw it away.

You shouldn't throw it away, but if you typically hit bad shots you shouldn't have "consistency" as a priority when choosing equipment.

Oh God.  Not this again.

http://www.golfwrx.c...age__hl__ pines

And yes, I noticed the quotation marks.

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#400 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:37 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 14 November 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

Again your logic is a little flawed. Everyone hits bad shots. Everyone hits good shots. Everyone wants to consistently hit more good, solid shots and consistently hit less bad shots while lessening the severity of the bad shots. There’s a segment of golfers that are gonna play terrible no matter what equipment they use and I don’t think it’s logical to use them to support your argument against single length clubs.

Its not an argument against single length clubs.  Its an argument against single length clubs for players that have a swing flaw that shortening the shaft doesn't fix.  Single length clubs are fantastic for a ton of players.  Just not the really good or really bad (IMO).  If you have contact problems in a 7 iron or higher, SL seems like an odd choice.  If you can hit a 7 solid or have consistency issues in flight they seem great.  They just seem to me to fix specific problems, but they arn't discussed that way.  If you can't hit a 7 solid repeatedly, it seems to me making your PW a 7 is a bad idea that will ingrain bad habits.

View Postalfriday, on 14 November 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

Oh God.  Not this again.

http://www.golfwrx.c...age__hl__ pines

And yes, I noticed the quotation marks.

Usually don't respond to these, but not sure why people go through the trouble of doing this.  We've discussed this before.  I find it interesting, so I discuss it.  I also like to read the same type of books, and generally like murder mysteries.  I don't post in the putter threads, because I know nothing about it and don't find it interesting.  I generally post in wedge threads, because I know a lot about it and find it interesting.  I think single length is interesting, and I don't understand the thought process of buying single length irons if you have a path or face mistake, or contact issues above the 6 iron.  That doesn't make any sense to me.

Its strange to me that people take the time to post that someone else is doing something on an internet message board that they consider a waste of time.  You should call the authorities to report the guy with the gun to your head that makes you read my posts.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 14 November 2017 - 09:39 PM.

Kuro Kage Blue 60 X:
M2 10*
XR 15*, XR 19*

s300:
Burner Rescue 22*, 25*
a4 Forged 5-PW (1* weak, 3* up, -1.25")
Engage 52*, 58* (4* up)

Fitted Edel

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#401 Milfordlefty

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:59 AM

View Postelwhippy, on 14 November 2017 - 03:35 AM, said:

I can safely say not one of our local stores has sold a set. The odd person tries the demo and that is it. An interesting concept but I can only see it being effective for a tall player with an upright, and very consistent swing.

5"6" here, played single length all last year, hdcp dropped a couple of strokes and won my league championship (disclosure: partner had some to do with this).
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Putter - Odyssey #7 w/ SuperStroke Flatso 2.0

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#402 billh17

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:33 AM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 14 November 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

Again your logic is a little flawed. Everyone hits bad shots. Everyone hits good shots. Everyone wants to consistently hit more good, solid shots and consistently hit less bad shots while lessening the severity of the bad shots. There’s a segment of golfers that are gonna play terrible no matter what equipment they use and I don’t think it’s logical to use them to support your argument against single length clubs.

Its not an argument against single length clubs.  Its an argument against single length clubs for players that have a swing flaw that shortening the shaft doesn't fix.  Single length clubs are fantastic for a ton of players.  Just not the really good or really bad (IMO).  If you have contact problems in a 7 iron or higher, SL seems like an odd choice.  If you can hit a 7 solid or have consistency issues in flight they seem great.  They just seem to me to fix specific problems, but they arn't discussed that way.  If you can't hit a 7 solid repeatedly, it seems to me making your PW a 7 is a bad idea that will ingrain bad habits.

View Postalfriday, on 14 November 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

Oh God.  Not this again.

http://www.golfwrx.c...age__hl__ pines

And yes, I noticed the quotation marks.

Usually don't respond to these, but not sure why people go through the trouble of doing this.  We've discussed this before.  I find it interesting, so I discuss it.  I also like to read the same type of books, and generally like murder mysteries.  I don't post in the putter threads, because I know nothing about it and don't find it interesting.  I generally post in wedge threads, because I know a lot about it and find it interesting.  I think single length is interesting, and I don't understand the thought process of buying single length irons if you have a path or face mistake, or contact issues above the 6 iron.  That doesn't make any sense to me.

Its strange to me that people take the time to post that someone else is doing something on an internet message board that they consider a waste of time.  You should call the authorities to report the guy with the gun to your head that makes you read my posts.
But...you DO understand the thought process of buying variable  length irons if you have a path or face mistake,or contact issues above the 6 iron.
Now, I find that an interesting  reasoning process.  Can you please explain the difference? Are the VLI better because being different lengths,
you wont make the same swing mistake with each one?  Just curious...
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#403 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:30 AM

View Postbillh17, on 15 November 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 14 November 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

Again your logic is a little flawed. Everyone hits bad shots. Everyone hits good shots. Everyone wants to consistently hit more good, solid shots and consistently hit less bad shots while lessening the severity of the bad shots. There’s a segment of golfers that are gonna play terrible no matter what equipment they use and I don’t think it’s logical to use them to support your argument against single length clubs.

Its not an argument against single length clubs.  Its an argument against single length clubs for players that have a swing flaw that shortening the shaft doesn't fix.  Single length clubs are fantastic for a ton of players.  Just not the really good or really bad (IMO).  If you have contact problems in a 7 iron or higher, SL seems like an odd choice.  If you can hit a 7 solid or have consistency issues in flight they seem great.  They just seem to me to fix specific problems, but they arn't discussed that way.  If you can't hit a 7 solid repeatedly, it seems to me making your PW a 7 is a bad idea that will ingrain bad habits.

View Postalfriday, on 14 November 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

Oh God.  Not this again.

http://www.golfwrx.c...age__hl__ pines

And yes, I noticed the quotation marks.

Usually don't respond to these, but not sure why people go through the trouble of doing this.  We've discussed this before.  I find it interesting, so I discuss it.  I also like to read the same type of books, and generally like murder mysteries.  I don't post in the putter threads, because I know nothing about it and don't find it interesting.  I generally post in wedge threads, because I know a lot about it and find it interesting.  I think single length is interesting, and I don't understand the thought process of buying single length irons if you have a path or face mistake, or contact issues above the 6 iron.  That doesn't make any sense to me.

Its strange to me that people take the time to post that someone else is doing something on an internet message board that they consider a waste of time.  You should call the authorities to report the guy with the gun to your head that makes you read my posts.
But...you DO understand the thought process of buying variable  length irons if you have a path or face mistake,or contact issues above the 6 iron.
Now, I find that an interesting  reasoning process.  Can you please explain the difference? Are the VLI better because being different lengths,
you wont make the same swing mistake with each one?  Just curious...

Given your golf swing, your results are going to be a probability distribution clustered around a median of your skill level.  Sometimes you will hit a great shot, and sometimes a poor one, but over time, you will regress such that your average is equatable with your skill level - i.e. given a large enough sample size your results will reflect your skill.  In a tight distribution, your results won't vary much above or below the mean - if your average from the pin from 100 yards is 20' (which is incredibly good) and you have a tight distribution you might have a weighted average* of 9 feet to 30 feet.  If you have a loose distribution (variance), your average from the pin might to from 3' to 45'.

Better players tend to have tighter distributions than worse players.

When people say "I want to get more consistent" what they mean is "I want to hit my better shots more often", but an SL iron doesn't know good and bad.  It just knows its the same length and, according to this thread, helps you repeat your swing (however good or bad it is) more consistently.  So, my range with an SL will cluster closer to my mean than my range with a VL (Assuming SL actually *is* more repeatable, which is one of its main selling points).  So if your basic 7 iron proximity distribution is 11' (best) - 27' (average) - 39' (worst) and you go to SL, your range will tighten *ON BOTH SIDES*.  Its not magic beans that the SL iron knows only to be repeatable on your misses - you'll hit less horrid shots, but you'll also hit less great ones.  You are eliminating variance (again, if the SL claims are true).

SL narrows your band of results.  For some players, that can be a great thing.  For some, its an awful thing, especially very bad players who generally only ever hit good shots by luck.  They'll get lucky with SL, just much less often.  You can't have it both ways.  It can't make your swing easier to repeat, but only the good parts.  It tightens your band.  Your brain tells you you are "more consistent", but whats actually happening is that you are losing it on both sides.

So why does this matter?

Typically the way a human gets better at something is to push further than where he wants to be and then settles.  We want perfect so we can get to good. SL tightens that band.  VL expands it.  When you are trying to get better and learn, you want as wide a variance between your shots as you can possibly get so your brain learns what "really really good" feels like.  SL is like trying to get good at shooting jump shots during basketball games by only shooting free throws in practice.  Its not that extreme, but its the same idea.  Free throws have a much tighter probability band than an in-game shot - in game shots have way more variance.  You can make one from 30 feet, and you can miss a lay up.  You *could* try to get better by just shooting free throws, its just hideously inefficient.  You can try to get better with SL, its just inefficient.  The more variance the task has the quicker the human brain learns how to anchor itself to the top range.

Finally, stop saying SL or VL is "better" or I said that.  I didn't say that.  I said one is better for one type and another for the other.  I think SL is really good for the middle and VL for the extreme (if you are a highly skilled player, just choke down and tilt the grip upright and magically have a SL set).

What I did say:
-SL tightens your result band and is "more consistent" and allows your swing to "repeat" more often. It is good at this.
-Tightening your result band doesn't just tighten in one direction.  It tightens in both directions.  You hit less clunkers, and you also hit less of those "whoa! where did that come from!" shots.  Being less unlucky also means you are less lucky. Nobody talks about this part.  The SL iron doesn't know if its repeating good or bad moves.  Its just easier to repeat, on both sides.  It removes variance.
-There are a handful of flaws (contact in low irons, height in wedges, confidence, gapping due to improper shaft lean at impact) that SL can really help with, and those players should consider them.  These issues generally show up in mid-caps.
-There are a handful of flaws (contact in irons above a 7, directional mistakes, alignment issues, reverse pivot/sway) that SL does absolutely nothing to fix and it doesn't matter what iron you have.  These issues generally show up in high-caps.
-People are overhyped on SL.  Its been around since Bobby Jones.  Its not a revolution.  Its a neat way to play golf, especially if you already make crisp contact but don't have a ton of time to practice.

What I did not say:
-SL is bad
-VL is better than SL
-That nobody has benefited from a switch to SL, before we get 10 "I switched to SL for five rounds and four of them were good!" posts.

A more repeatable swing is just that - more repeatable.  You don't just get the good.  The band narrows.  This can reduce enjoyment (you will have fewer OMG! shots, and fewer Oh. My. God. shots) and it can dramatically slow learning (the human brain reacts strongly in terms of memory and learning to extremes).

*A weighted average throws out stuff like ground balls that are total outliers, before some jackwagon (as usually happens) posts up that we're going to sometimes hit it closer than 9 or farther away than 30.  Of course you are.  Those are the poles.  Using the outliers we get a bottom limit that is generally as bad as a "normal" bad shot is.  We don't say your range is in the cup to 200 yards because once you hit it in and once you bladed it, but we do use those to weigh the range on either end.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 15 November 2017 - 09:36 AM.

Kuro Kage Blue 60 X:
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XR 15*, XR 19*

s300:
Burner Rescue 22*, 25*
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#404 rybo

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:15 AM

Pinestreet,

Have you played a few rounds with a real set of single lengths clubs yet?

Just an observation but you seem hell bent on wanting people to side with your way of thinking when it comes to single length clubs. You are repeatedly posting negative comments about them in just about every active single length thread.  And statements like "Single length clubs are fantastic for a ton of players.  Just not the really good or really bad (IMO)" as you openly state is your opinion.   But it's just that, an opinion from somebody who doesn't use them.  My current handicap is fluctuating between +2.7 to +1.6, which falls under the really good player and I have found a tremendous benefit from them.  Others may not and honestly I am perfectly fine with it.  There is no spot on the scorecard for which clubs were used, only the number of shots.   You can use a banana on a bamboo stick as a club for all I care.

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#405 wkndhack

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:31 PM

I get what Pinestreet is saying I just don't think the tightening from both the top end and bottom end is equally proportional to impact on scoring. If you tighten average dispersion and get more consistent, how can you not hit more greens? On approaches, even if you have less tap in birdies, if you are leaving less shots in bunkers or are putting when you used to leave it short and have to chip, I would think score would go down. I would think that improving the bad would be more impactful than reducing the top end. Would you trade some of your 5 foot birdie putts for 15 footers if it meant you had a somewhat equal reduction in needing chips or bunker shots to get up and down? Doesn't strokes gained support that trade off?

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#406 pbr2121

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:35 PM

Very interesting and informative discussion. Thanks to all. This is a rather simplistic contribution but I played around with the Pinhawks and loved the 5 hybrid and hated the shorts. High hooks all day. I went back to VL for that reason alone. Cobra's new SL hybrids could be the ticket.
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#407 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:33 PM

View Postrybo, on 15 November 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:

Pinestreet,

Have you played a few rounds with a real set of single lengths clubs yet?

Just an observation but you seem hell bent on wanting people to side with your way of thinking when it comes to single length clubs. You are repeatedly posting negative comments about them in just about every active single length thread.  And statements like "Single length clubs are fantastic for a ton of players.  Just not the really good or really bad (IMO)" as you openly state is your opinion.   But it's just that, an opinion from somebody who doesn't use them.  My current handicap is fluctuating between +2.7 to +1.6, which falls under the really good player and I have found a tremendous benefit from them.  Others may not and honestly I am perfectly fine with it.  There is no spot on the scorecard for which clubs were used, only the number of shots.   You can use a banana on a bamboo stick as a club for all I care.

Depends what you mean by "real" to be honest.  I built myself a set using my regular shafts and some heads I found cheap.  I played 9 holes with them.  i thought they were pretty good.  I especially liked the 5 iron, more than I thought I would.  I didn't see much of an advantage during those 9, but I'll hit them on the range occasionally.  Part of the issue with me playing them is that I've played the same iron setup (shafts, grips, heads) for a really, really long time and I'm comfortable with them, so anything feels off to me.  But I could get the 5 in the air.  I carried it about 200 yards, which is shorter than my VL 5, but that could easily be because the heads are cheap or because I'm not as used to them.  I have never hit a "real" SL iron in the sense of Edel, Cobra F7s, etc... I had a set of Sterlings a while back but I was significantly worse at golf then so that is not a great test.

I post in two single length threads.  They're both in my "participated' tab.  I've missed a bunch of them.

I don't like all or none thinking in golf equipment.  I disagree with the people who say "SL is better", and I think its dangerous to tell new players that.  It is becoming less dangerous as the cost of a SL set comes down (so people can try them, like blades) but I just don't like the all or none thinking that these SL threads seem to produce.  There are big advantages and disadvantages to both.

This is why I wrote the "What I did say:" / "What I did not say:" part of my post.  I'm not anti-SL.  I'm anti-'SL is a revolution and a much better way for everyone to play golf' and 'i don't understand why anyone would ever play VL again!' <- both of these are from this thread.

You are a better player than me, but not by all that much per handicap and I cheat in my long irons.  My 5 iron is 27*.  Below that, I play two hybrids shafted with my steel iron shafts.  I can't hit a 3 or a 4 iron and I consider myself a decent amateur tournament player.  I have zero issues with people "cheating" to hit low irons and not playing MP blades at 3 and 4.  I just think these threads posit that SL is the ultimate answer to consistency and that isn't the case (for example, I'm SL 9-LW and play hybrids with steel iron shafts down low).

I just object to what seems like cult fanaticism in these threads.  There are drawbacks, and reducing the liklihood of a lucky awesome strike is one of them.  It can't be both ways.  If it makes your swing more repeatable, it makes your swing less likely to hit those "WHOA! AWESOME!" shots.  For you, thats good.  For a high cap who comes back to play again because of those few shots, becoming "more consistent" sucks.

View Postwkndhack, on 15 November 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

I get what Pinestreet is saying I just don't think the tightening from both the top end and bottom end is equally proportional to impact on scoring. If you tighten average dispersion and get more consistent, how can you not hit more greens? On approaches, even if you have less tap in birdies, if you are leaving less shots in bunkers or are putting when you used to leave it short and have to chip, I would think score would go down. I would think that improving the bad would be more impactful than reducing the top end. Would you trade some of your 5 foot birdie putts for 15 footers if it meant you had a somewhat equal reduction in needing chips or bunker shots to get up and down? Doesn't strokes gained support that trade off?

It depends on the player.  For the middle of the pack, absolutely (which is why I said that it seems best for mid-caps who can consistently make crisp contact).  At the extremes, the bad players have negative strokes gained (which is why their average to par is highest on par 5s - the more times they have to hit the ball, the worse their score gets) which you would never want to regress to, and the good players have such positive strokes gained that their bad shots are good enough that they only want their great shots (just the inverse).

The groups that would want broad bands of variance around their average are the very bad (whose average stroke is actually bad - they do worse the more they have to swing i.e. par 5s being their worst holes) and the very good (whose bad isn't bad enough to hurt them because they can recover, but whose great are great).  The best group to want to regress to the mean (i.e. reduce variance, potentially through SL clubs) are the mid caps.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 15 November 2017 - 09:01 PM.

Kuro Kage Blue 60 X:
M2 10*
XR 15*, XR 19*

s300:
Burner Rescue 22*, 25*
a4 Forged 5-PW (1* weak, 3* up, -1.25")
Engage 52*, 58* (4* up)

Fitted Edel

17

#408 boggyman

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:59 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 15 November 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

View Postrybo, on 15 November 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:

Pinestreet,

Have you played a few rounds with a real set of single lengths clubs yet?

Just an observation but you seem hell bent on wanting people to side with your way of thinking when it comes to single length clubs. You are repeatedly posting negative comments about them in just about every active single length thread.  And statements like "Single length clubs are fantastic for a ton of players.  Just not the really good or really bad (IMO)" as you openly state is your opinion.   But it's just that, an opinion from somebody who doesn't use them.  My current handicap is fluctuating between +2.7 to +1.6, which falls under the really good player and I have found a tremendous benefit from them.  Others may not and honestly I am perfectly fine with it.  There is no spot on the scorecard for which clubs were used, only the number of shots.   You can use a banana on a bamboo stick as a club for all I care.

Depends what you mean by "real" to be honest.  I built myself a set using my regular shafts and some heads I found cheap.  I played 9 holes with them.  i thought they were pretty good.  I especially liked the 5 iron, more than I thought I would.  I didn't see much of an advantage during those 9, but I'll hit them on the range occasionally.  Part of the issue with me playing them is that I've played the same iron setup (shafts, grips, heads) for a really, really long time and I'm comfortable with them, so anything feels off to me.  But I could get the 5 in the air.  I carried it about 200 yards, which is shorter than my VL 5, but that could easily be because the heads are cheap or because I'm not as used to them.  I have never hit a "real" SL iron in the sense of Edel, Cobra F7s, etc... I had a set of Sterlings a while back but I was significantly worse at golf then so that is not a great test.

I post in two single length threads.  They're both in my "participated' tab.  I've missed a bunch of them.

I don't like all or none thinking in golf equipment.  I disagree with the people who say "SL is better", and I think its dangerous to tell new players that.  It is becoming less dangerous as the cost of a SL set comes down (so people can try them, like blades) but I just don't like the all or none thinking that these SL threads seem to produce.  There are big advantages and disadvantages to both.

This is why I wrote the "What I did say:" / "What I did not say:" part of my post.  I'm not anti-SL.  I'm anti-'SL is a revolution and a much better way for everyone to play golf' and 'i don't understand why anyone would ever play VL again!' <- both of these are from this thread.

You are a better player than me, but not by all that much per handicap and I cheat in my long irons.  My 5 iron is 27*.  Below that, I play two hybrids shafted with my steel iron shafts.  I can't hit a 3 or a 4 iron and I consider myself a decent amateur tournament player.  I have zero issues with people "cheating" to hit low irons and not playing MP blades at 3 and 4.  I just think these threads posit that SL is the ultimate answer to consistency and that isn't the case (for example, I'm SL 9-LW and play hybrids with steel iron shafts down low).

I just object to what seems like cult fanaticism in these threads.  There are drawbacks, and reducing the liklihood of a lucky awesome strike is one of them.  It can't be both ways.  If it makes your swing more repeatable, it makes your swing less likely to hit those "WHOA! AWESOME!" shots.  For you, thats good.  For a high cap who comes back to play again because of those few shots, becoming "more consistent" sucks.

View Postwkndhack, on 15 November 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

I get what Pinestreet is saying I just don't think the tightening from both the top end and bottom end is equally proportional to impact on scoring. If you tighten average dispersion and get more consistent, how can you not hit more greens? On approaches, even if you have less tap in birdies, if you are leaving less shots in bunkers or are putting when you used to leave it short and have to chip, I would think score would go down. I would think that improving the bad would be more impactful than reducing the top end. Would you trade some of your 5 foot birdie putts for 15 footers if it meant you had a somewhat equal reduction in needing chips or bunker shots to get up and down? Doesn't strokes gained support that trade off?

It depends on the player.  For the middle of the pack, absolutely (which is why I said that it seems best for mid-caps who can consistently make crisp contact).  At the extremes, the bad players have negative strokes gained (which is why their average to par is highest on par 5s - the more times they have to hit the ball, the worse their score gets) which you would never want to regress to, and the good players have such positive strokes gained that their bad shots are good enough that they only want their great shots (just the inverse).

The groups that would want broad bands of variance around their average are the very bad (whose average stroke is actually bad - they do worse the more they have to swing i.e. par 5s being their worst holes) and the very good (whose bad isn't bad enough to hurt them because they can recover, but whose great are great).  The best group to want to regress to the mean (i.e. reduce variance, potentially through SL clubs) are the mid caps.
So you built your own! What shafts and what heads did you use? Is it fair to say that a “homemade” set and a factory set weighted properly would play totally different?

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#409 BiggErn

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:02 PM

I guess if you play single length you will never be really good. Thanks for pointing out my limitations.

Edited by BiggErn, 15 November 2017 - 09:03 PM.


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#410 boggyman

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:15 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 15 November 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

View Postrybo, on 15 November 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:

Pinestreet,

Have you played a few rounds with a real set of single lengths clubs yet?

Just an observation but you seem hell bent on wanting people to side with your way of thinking when it comes to single length clubs. You are repeatedly posting negative comments about them in just about every active single length thread.  And statements like "Single length clubs are fantastic for a ton of players.  Just not the really good or really bad (IMO)" as you openly state is your opinion.   But it's just that, an opinion from somebody who doesn't use them.  My current handicap is fluctuating between +2.7 to +1.6, which falls under the really good player and I have found a tremendous benefit from them.  Others may not and honestly I am perfectly fine with it.  There is no spot on the scorecard for which clubs were used, only the number of shots.   You can use a banana on a bamboo stick as a club for all I care.

Depends what you mean by "real" to be honest.  I built myself a set using my regular shafts and some heads I found cheap.  I played 9 holes with them.  i thought they were pretty good.  I especially liked the 5 iron, more than I thought I would.  I didn't see much of an advantage during those 9, but I'll hit them on the range occasionally.  Part of the issue with me playing them is that I've played the same iron setup (shafts, grips, heads) for a really, really long time and I'm comfortable with them, so anything feels off to me.  But I could get the 5 in the air.  I carried it about 200 yards, which is shorter than my VL 5, but that could easily be because the heads are cheap or because I'm not as used to them.  I have never hit a "real" SL iron in the sense of Edel, Cobra F7s, etc... I had a set of Sterlings a while back but I was significantly worse at golf then so that is not a great test.

I post in two single length threads.  They're both in my "participated' tab.  I've missed a bunch of them.

I don't like all or none thinking in golf equipment.  I disagree with the people who say "SL is better", and I think its dangerous to tell new players that.  It is becoming less dangerous as the cost of a SL set comes down (so people can try them, like blades) but I just don't like the all or none thinking that these SL threads seem to produce.  There are big advantages and disadvantages to both.

This is why I wrote the "What I did say:" / "What I did not say:" part of my post.  I'm not anti-SL.  I'm anti-'SL is a revolution and a much better way for everyone to play golf' and 'i don't understand why anyone would ever play VL again!' <- both of these are from this thread.

You are a better player than me, but not by all that much per handicap and I cheat in my long irons.  My 5 iron is 27*.  Below that, I play two hybrids shafted with my steel iron shafts.  I can't hit a 3 or a 4 iron and I consider myself a decent amateur tournament player.  I have zero issues with people "cheating" to hit low irons and not playing MP blades at 3 and 4.  I just think these threads posit that SL is the ultimate answer to consistency and that isn't the case (for example, I'm SL 9-LW and play hybrids with steel iron shafts down low).

I just object to what seems like cult fanaticism in these threads.  There are drawbacks, and reducing the liklihood of a lucky awesome strike is one of them.  It can't be both ways.  If it makes your swing more repeatable, it makes your swing less likely to hit those "WHOA! AWESOME!" shots.  For you, thats good.  For a high cap who comes back to play again because of those few shots, becoming "more consistent" sucks.

View Postwkndhack, on 15 November 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

I get what Pinestreet is saying I just don't think the tightening from both the top end and bottom end is equally proportional to impact on scoring. If you tighten average dispersion and get more consistent, how can you not hit more greens? On approaches, even if you have less tap in birdies, if you are leaving less shots in bunkers or are putting when you used to leave it short and have to chip, I would think score would go down. I would think that improving the bad would be more impactful than reducing the top end. Would you trade some of your 5 foot birdie putts for 15 footers if it meant you had a somewhat equal reduction in needing chips or bunker shots to get up and down? Doesn't strokes gained support that trade off?

It depends on the player.  For the middle of the pack, absolutely (which is why I said that it seems best for mid-caps who can consistently make crisp contact).  At the extremes, the bad players have negative strokes gained (which is why their average to par is highest on par 5s - the more times they have to hit the ball, the worse their score gets) which you would never want to regress to, and the good players have such positive strokes gained that their bad shots are good enough that they only want their great shots (just the inverse).

The groups that would want broad bands of variance around their average are the very bad (whose average stroke is actually bad - they do worse the more they have to swing i.e. par 5s being their worst holes) and the very good (whose bad isn't bad enough to hurt them because they can recover, but whose great are great).  The best group to want to regress to the mean (i.e. reduce variance, potentially through SL clubs) are the mid caps.
Whole lot of rambling going on here!!


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#411 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:30 PM

View Postboggyman, on 15 November 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

So you built your own! What shafts and what heads did you use? Is it fair to say that a "homemade" set and a factory set weighted properly would play totally different?

I enjoy building clubs.  Shafts were s300s.  The heads were from diamond tour.  I don't remember the brand - in a zone?.  I have no idea.  A real set would probably be way better. I've said 600 times I have no issue with SL, just people telling others its a strictly better way to play for everyone.  If a player gets weight left, turns well and has good path and face he could probably hit it tight with a frying pan shafted with construction rebar.  I wasn't impressed with SL, but they still went in the air and generally in the right direction.  I don't think most people are honest with themselves in evaluating these clubs. They think the good shots they hit is their "real" swing.  They're wrong.  Increasing repeat-ability will increase the poor ones in bad players.

View PostBiggErn, on 15 November 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

I guess if you play single length you will never be really good. Thanks for pointing out my limitations.

I said that if you play SL you'll get lucky less often.

View Postboggyman, on 15 November 2017 - 09:15 PM, said:

Whole lot of rambling going on here!!

I was born a ramblin' man.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 15 November 2017 - 09:32 PM.

Kuro Kage Blue 60 X:
M2 10*
XR 15*, XR 19*

s300:
Burner Rescue 22*, 25*
a4 Forged 5-PW (1* weak, 3* up, -1.25")
Engage 52*, 58* (4* up)

Fitted Edel

21

#412 BiggErn

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:49 PM

Lol. What do you mean by get lucky less often? It didn’t make sense the first time either.

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#413 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:56 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 15 November 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

Lol. What do you mean by get lucky less often? It didn’t make sense the first time either.

I won't retype the entire thing.  If you actually want to know and message me I'll be happy to explain it.  If SL makes your swing more predictable it reduces both extremes. You will hit less extremely bad and extremely good shots. Most players think SL just cuts their bad shots.  SL cuts down on aberrant shots - both good and bad.  It tightens the band of results closer to the median of the player's skill.  Players hit plenty of shots where they aim way too far right and compensate perfectly by ripping over the top, time it really well, and hit the flagstick.  That's luck.  If that's how a player hits good shots, making their swing more repeatable will result in a tighter variance band which will make them worse because most of the time that sequence ends up really bad.  So stop choosing equipment designed to make your bad mechanics repeat.

As Harvey Penick said, if you have a bad grip why do you want a good swing?

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 15 November 2017 - 10:00 PM.

Kuro Kage Blue 60 X:
M2 10*
XR 15*, XR 19*

s300:
Burner Rescue 22*, 25*
a4 Forged 5-PW (1* weak, 3* up, -1.25")
Engage 52*, 58* (4* up)

Fitted Edel

23

#414 BiggErn

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:13 PM

Your “logic” is totally wack. People make good and bad swings with the same club all the time at every skill level. Variable length clubs in no way increase your chance of getting “lucky” more often, that is about the most absurd argument I’ve ever heard. You’re assumption is based on an extreme belief that a bad swing just becomes more ingrained when it’s the exact same with variable length. I know you will find this out there.....but.....you can play single length and work on swing changes if you need to. Crazy right! I mean even really good golfers who have little to no time to put towards practice may just want to simplify things that may improve their results. People with back issues may want to take a little stress off their back. There’s a lot of reasons and by choosing single length you’re not limiting your ceiling or condemned to one swing.

24

#415 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:31 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 15 November 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

Your “logic” is totally wack. People make good and bad swings with the same club all the time at every skill level. Variable length clubs in no way increase your chance of getting “lucky” more often, that is about the most absurd argument I’ve ever heard.

If single length irons makes your swing more repeatable, they make it less likely for you to both hit a great shot by accident and a bad shot by accident.  Your swing is more repeatable.  It will cluster more around normal than VL irons.  Its not "absurd", its how regression works.  I'm not sure I buy that SL makes your swing more repeatable, but assuming you think that, "repeatable" doesn't mean "remove the compensations that make the bad shots bad but leave the compensations that makes the good shots good" - repeatable means repeatable.  Less luck (read: compensations during downswing, which can be good or bad).

View PostBiggErn, on 15 November 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

I know you will find this out there.....but.....you can play single length and work on swing changes if you need to. Crazy right! I mean even really good golfers who have little to no time to put towards practice may just want to simplify things that may improve their results. People with back issues may want to take a little stress off their back. There’s a lot of reasons and by choosing single length you’re not limiting your ceiling or condemned to one swing.

Come on dude, I *literally* said that single length is good for people "who might not have enough time to practice".  Read up in the thread.  I said exactly that.  If your not going to read my posts don't respond.

As I've said a hundred times, my issue isn't anti-SL.  Its that these threads don't present the arguments against SL (and there are a few) very well.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 15 November 2017 - 10:32 PM.

Kuro Kage Blue 60 X:
M2 10*
XR 15*, XR 19*

s300:
Burner Rescue 22*, 25*
a4 Forged 5-PW (1* weak, 3* up, -1.25")
Engage 52*, 58* (4* up)

Fitted Edel

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#416 boggyman

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:33 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 15 November 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

View Postboggyman, on 15 November 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

So you built your own! What shafts and what heads did you use? Is it fair to say that a "homemade" set and a factory set weighted properly would play totally different?

I enjoy building clubs.  Shafts were s300s.  The heads were from diamond tour.  I don't remember the brand - in a zone?.  I have no idea.  A real set would probably be way better. I've said 600 times I have no issue with SL, just people telling others its a strictly better way to play for everyone.  If a player gets weight left, turns well and has good path and face he could probably hit it tight with a frying pan shafted with construction rebar.  I wasn't impressed with SL, but they still went in the air and generally in the right direction.  I don't think most people are honest with themselves in evaluating these clubs. They think the good shots they hit is their "real" swing.  They're wrong.  Increasing repeat-ability will increase the poor ones in bad players.

View PostBiggErn, on 15 November 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

I guess if you play single length you will never be really good. Thanks for pointing out my limitations.

I said that if you play SL you'll get lucky less often.

View Postboggyman, on 15 November 2017 - 09:15 PM, said:

Whole lot of rambling going on here!!

I was born a ramblin' man.
I’d testify to that lol!! Agree, 1 lengths are like anything else, no one size or one color for everyone!!

26

#417 rybo

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Posted Yesterday, 10:47 PM

I like SL length clubs. I think they have made my swing more repeatable and have made me a more consistent player, and golf is a game of efficiency.  

I do miss some of the length in my long irons due to I do not swing a pw like a long iron and being 6’ 4” tall. The long irons just feel a little too short.  That’s why my next build will be VL but it will have a very tight increment of 1/8” or maybe 1/4”. This will give me all of the added benefit of the additional length in the short irons and return the long irons to something I am more used to. Thankfully this is now doable thanks to using single length heads in the short irons and standard heads in the long irons. (1/8” increment may be all SL heads)

I have not played 1/2” increments since around 2010-2011, was using 3/8” for a very long time.  Personally I will never go back to using short/standard length short irons and wedges. Also 1/2” increments came about for ease of manufacturing, literally had nothing to do with a superior fitting.  

If this helps anyone out there....great! If anyone has a question, ask it.  SL is not for everyone, just as VL is not for everyone. Play what you want, be happy!  






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#418 new2g0lf

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Posted Yesterday, 11:34 PM

Have you guys using the one length clubs changed your swing at all to mimic Bryson or are you still using your regular swing?

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#419 Mcgeeno

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Posted Today, 12:53 AM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 17 November 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

Have you guys using the one length clubs changed your swing at all to mimic Bryson or are you still using your regular swing?

Regular swing.

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#420 rybo

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Posted Today, 01:06 AM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 17 November 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

Have you guys using the one length clubs changed your swing at all to mimic Bryson or are you still using your regular swing?

It’s nearly impossible to mimic the one plane swing DeChambeau uses.  His irons are bent to around 70* to match the way he wants to swing.

My swing is very much a regular swing. I did note that I now have less wrist c0ck at the top of the swing. This happened naturally.


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