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Arccos 360 New User Review


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#31 MJD80

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 07:42 AM

Changed over to an iPhone during the week, and arccos worked great. After doing a survey for them this week I had a whinge about the android app. They came back with a really generic "we're investigating' response which I thought was really poor. People invest a couple of hundred bucks on the basis it supports android, when it simply doesn't. Not good enough. Used iPhone 7 today and worked sweet as you like.


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#32 jezz81

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 10:35 PM

Im having massive issues with the Arccoss system on android. (Samsung S7 Edge)

My last round I would tag  a shot and it would appear on the next fairway, despite the blue location dot being in the same spot I was standing.
This happened nearly every hole and I had to keep manually editing it.

If the teexbox on one hole is anywhere near the green from the previous hole it keeps tagging my tee shot on the previous hole.

App crashes several times a round.

Holes don't automatically change on the map.

The hole isn't centralised on the screen, i.e. sometimes the teebox is just off the bottom of the screen, and you can't move it.

I like to do my editing post round on a tablet, I have an Nvidea Shield and I can't even load the app, it crashes every single time on opening.

Battery life is woefull, I have mobile data, auto screen brightness, auto sync all switched off, I still barely last a round, I had to buy one of those battery case covers to help me get through.


To say I'm disappointed is a massive understatement, the whole point of purchasing this system was to be able to leave the phone in the pocket and mostly forget about it, currently I have to check it after every single shot.



I'm waiting on feedback for Arccos.

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#33 larciel

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 12:26 AM

Arccos on Android is basically a dud, beta, waste of time and energy (and phone battery).

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#34 tourbrassie

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 02:09 AM

View Postjezz81, on 12 March 2017 - 10:35 PM, said:

Im having massive issues with the Arccoss system on android. (Samsung S7 Edge)

My last round I would tag  a shot and it would appear on the next fairway, despite the blue location dot being in the same spot I was standing.
This happened nearly every hole and I had to keep manually editing it.

If the teexbox on one hole is anywhere near the green from the previous hole it keeps tagging my tee shot on the previous hole.

App crashes several times a round.

Holes don't automatically change on the map.

The hole isn't centralised on the screen, i.e. sometimes the teebox is just off the bottom of the screen, and you can't move it.

I like to do my editing post round on a tablet, I have an Nvidea Shield and I can't even load the app, it crashes every single time on opening.

Battery life is woefull, I have mobile data, auto screen brightness, auto sync all switched off, I still barely last a round, I had to buy one of those battery case covers to help me get through.


To say I'm disappointed is a massive understatement, the whole point of purchasing this system was to be able to leave the phone in the pocket and mostly forget about it, currently I have to check it after every single shot.



I'm waiting on feedback for Arccos.

I just invite you to test bebrassie 30-days free of charge. Our Solution is a little bit more handwork at the end, but there is no solution on the market with out any edit to do after the round.

Looking forward to your feedback.
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#35 tourbrassie

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 02:11 AM

View Postlarciel, on 13 March 2017 - 12:26 AM, said:

Arccos on Android is basically a dud, beta, waste of time and energy (and phone battery).

bebrassie's Android version is pretty good. It also got a manual shot detection integrated next to the automatic shot detection. Just try it in our 30-days trial.

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tourbrassie - on stop platform for professional golf scores
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#36 jezz81

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:45 AM

So I should update,

Got my S7 edge replaced with a new one because my last one was saved from a couple drops

Happy to say Arccos worked perfect with the new one, I must have damaged the accelerometre or gyroscope and it affected it.

Happy days

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#37 Frankensteins Monster

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:19 PM

View Posttourbrassie, on 13 March 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

.but there is no solution on the market with out any edit to do after the round.

Nonsense. All Arccos rounds don't need any edits after round. Only edit necessary, is if there's a missed shot which is rare. Penalty strokes are handled per hole.

Edited by Frankensteins Monster, 20 March 2017 - 08:20 PM.


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#38 tourbrassie

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:12 AM

View PostFrankensteins Monster, on 20 March 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

View Posttourbrassie, on 13 March 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

.but there is no solution on the market with out any edit to do after the round.

Nonsense. All Arccos rounds don't need any edits after round. Only edit necessary, is if there's a missed shot which is rare. Penalty strokes are handled per hole.

If you took the penalty per hole, you can't do a strokes gained analysis because a shot that cause a penalty is a big lost in strokes. Because GPS is 2-3 meters inaccurate, you should have to be able to edit, because your spots can be wrong.

But of course Arccos is a great system. And I've enjoyed using it for a while. But I (European Performance Coach) am working with Tour Players over here in Europe, and no one would go out on the course with sensors in his clubs. That's why we use bebrassie.
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tourbrassie - on stop platform for professional golf scores
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#39 Frankensteins Monster

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:06 PM

View Posttourbrassie, on 21 March 2017 - 02:12 AM, said:

View PostFrankensteins Monster, on 20 March 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

View Posttourbrassie, on 13 March 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

.but there is no solution on the market with out any edit to do after the round.

Nonsense. All Arccos rounds don't need any edits after round. Only edit necessary, is if there's a missed shot which is rare. Penalty strokes are handled per hole.

If you took the penalty per hole, you can't do a strokes gained analysis because a shot that cause a penalty is a big lost in strokes. Because GPS is 2-3 meters inaccurate, you should have to be able to edit, because your spots can be wrong.

But of course Arccos is a great system. And I've enjoyed using it for a while. But I (European Performance Coach) am working with Tour Players over here in Europe, and no one would go out on the course with sensors in his clubs. That's why we use bebrassie.

You're a different market than the overwhelming masses on this site.

The GPS is far more accurate than guesstimating your spot after a round. I used Arccos for an entire year and it's accuracy is extremely high. The only time a shot was missed for me is when the sensor battery was dead. I rarely had to adjust shot locations on full shots. Putting I had to adjust sometimes. Overall, GPS, and stats, are highly accurate. It's a great tool and one I will easily choose over all other stat tracking devices on the market.

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#40 cinderellaboy

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 11:15 AM

My review after using for 25 rounds this year:  Bottom line, as much as I love data and analytics, and as well as Arccos works for what it is, I think I am going to bail.  

+  Shot recording has been fine for me w phone in front pocket.  Sometimes the GPS is missing where I am by a few yards (or doesnt pick up that Im in a bunker for example), but its hard to expect that type of precise accuracy on an iphone.  
+ The app is really easy to start and use
+ Using it has confirmed for me how far clubs are flying on certain shots on my home course.  It does not replace a launch monitor for knowing your true carry's, but it does provide the on course feedback which is really helpful if you play the same
course all the time (ie this hole plays long/short, I hit my 7i a good 10yds farther than my stock into this par 3 or approach etc)
+ The caddie feature even with its initial weaknesses which others have described has opened my mind to my course management on my home course.  I have given serious thought to using more variety off the tee.  I think this tool would be especially valuable ahead of golf trips especially to special courses you may only get 1 shot to play in your life (or tournaments etc) - you can establish a true plan ahead of the round.  

-  The sensors are really annoying to play with.  They keep unscrewing and are always loose.  I fear them falling out all the time.  I find myself screwing them back in before I take a shot rather than focusing on the shot.  
-  While the shot recording is very robust, I still feel like I need to check it after every single hole.  So I feel like an a-hole pulling my phone out after literally every hole to make sure my score recorded properly.  And if it records some weird non-shot, it can be annoying to edit.  
-  The software has no way of knowing where the pin is unless you manually move it on the app which is totally unrealistic to do unless you play alone all the time (even then, would be tedious).  When the software doesnt know where the pin is, the putting/chipping/sand handicaps really don't end up making much sense.  The only thing I look at then is the driver and approach handicaps which are the easier ones to have a feel for anyway.  
-  The dashboard has some cool features, but for as good as the data collection is, the dashboard needs work.  The layouts and charts etc I would do much differently.  


Its been nice to use for a while, but now the annoyances are overtaking the value add.  As much as I love stats and analysis and working on my game obsessively, sometimes you don't need a weatherman to tell you your putting sucks, you've got the hooks, your chipping needs work etc.


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#41 North Butte

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 05:59 AM

Your take on Arccos is the same as mine on Game Golf. Substitute the fumbling around with your phone for my tagging shots with the belt unit and I agree with the rest. The hassles would be worth it if they let me access the data in  more flexible way (or download it raw and analyze it myself). But the provided analytics just can't justify the downsides.
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#42 net_worth

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:25 PM

I have about 40 rounds in Arccos 360 now. I have no complaints about the sensors or on course accuracy. I'm used to editing putts after every hole.

My main issue with Arccos is the dashboard. The original dashboard didn't display data very well and the new dashboard is absolutely atrocious. They need to deliver data to users with a better dashboard design. For a first hand look at how terrible the new dashboard is, check out the demo for yourself (no cost, no signing up) https://preview.dash....arccosgolf.com

Edited by net_worth, 08 July 2017 - 08:27 PM.


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#43 MSchad

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:58 AM

View Postnet_worth, on 08 July 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

My main issue with Arccos is the dashboard. The original dashboard didn't display data very well and the new dashboard is absolutely atrocious.

I like the new dashboard. HIgh level summary of everything is on the first page; last 5 scores, 5 trending handicap categories, scoring breakdown, driving accuracy and GIRs. More details are available by drilling down.
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#44 Kmac™

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 09:52 AM

View PostMSchad, on 10 July 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

View Postnet_worth, on 08 July 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

My main issue with Arccos is the dashboard. The original dashboard didn't display data very well and the new dashboard is absolutely atrocious.

I like the new dashboard. HIgh level summary of everything is on the first page; last 5 scores, 5 trending handicap categories, scoring breakdown, driving accuracy and GIRs. More details are available by drilling down.

Agree and disagree at the same time, lol.

With the old dashboard it was very easy to see data for each club but with the new dashboard its more like a bunch of stats and trends. I want to see my shots with the driver like the old dashboard did it. I like all the info it gives but I think there needs to be more simple data too.

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#45 MSchad

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 09:56 AM

Totally agree with data for each club. Asked them about that and they said club data will be incorporated into this new dashboard.

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#46 Kmac™

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 09:58 AM

Wonder if that means its coming soon or they just incorporated into the plethora of stats already there. I just spent on hour between the two dashboards and they really need to add everything the old one had along with what the new one provides.

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#47 bluedot

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 07:28 AM

View Postcinderellaboy, on 03 July 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:

My review after using for 25 rounds this year:  Bottom line, as much as I love data and analytics, and as well as Arccos works for what it is, I think I am going to bail.  

+  Shot recording has been fine for me w phone in front pocket.  Sometimes the GPS is missing where I am by a few yards (or doesnt pick up that Im in a bunker for example), but its hard to expect that type of precise accuracy on an iphone.  
+ The app is really easy to start and use
+ Using it has confirmed for me how far clubs are flying on certain shots on my home course.  It does not replace a launch monitor for knowing your true carry's, but it does provide the on course feedback which is really helpful if you play the same
course all the time (ie this hole plays long/short, I hit my 7i a good 10yds farther than my stock into this par 3 or approach etc)
+ The caddie feature even with its initial weaknesses which others have described has opened my mind to my course management on my home course.  I have given serious thought to using more variety off the tee.  I think this tool would be especially valuable ahead of golf trips especially to special courses you may only get 1 shot to play in your life (or tournaments etc) - you can establish a true plan ahead of the round.  

-  The sensors are really annoying to play with.  They keep unscrewing and are always loose.  I fear them falling out all the time.  I find myself screwing them back in before I take a shot rather than focusing on the shot.  
-  While the shot recording is very robust, I still feel like I need to check it after every single hole.  So I feel like an a-hole pulling my phone out after literally every hole to make sure my score recorded properly.  And if it records some weird non-shot, it can be annoying to edit.  
-  The software has no way of knowing where the pin is unless you manually move it on the app which is totally unrealistic to do unless you play alone all the time (even then, would be tedious).  When the software doesnt know where the pin is, the putting/chipping/sand handicaps really don't end up making much sense.  The only thing I look at then is the driver and approach handicaps which are the easier ones to have a feel for anyway.  
-  The dashboard has some cool features, but for as good as the data collection is, the dashboard needs work.  The layouts and charts etc I would do much differently.  


Its been nice to use for a while, but now the annoyances are overtaking the value add.  As much as I love stats and analysis and working on my game obsessively, sometimes you don't need a weatherman to tell you your putting sucks, you've got the hooks, your chipping needs work etc.

I wonder if there isn't a particular grip that you have that is causing the sensors to be loose; I've used Arccos since the first of the year for 80+ rounds, and haven't had a single sensor come loose even once.  The one exception to this is the putter sensor with a grip that is different from the other 13 clubs, and it doesn't really come loose; it just twists back and forth a bit, likely because of the teardrop shape catching in my bag as the putter goes in and out.

I fully understand the issues that some have with the need to edit after each hole in order to get an accurate pin position for the hole.  I decided from the outset that I would only use Arccos at my home course for that very reason; I was NOT going to fiddle with my phone after every hole, and the away rounds aren't really necessary anyway for me to get sufficient accuracy in the analytics I was most interested in, which is the average distance for each club.  And, of course, I can do all of the editing of pin positions for my home course after the round because I know the course so well and can remember the positions well enough.

And I have to say, the Arccos data has been really helpful to me.  Using it, I've found out several things about my clubs and gaps that have made me work on specific shots AND make some equipment changes. I doubt anybody is interested in my specifics, but here are some examples of what Arccos has told me:

1. I had carried a 7 wood for many, many years; it's now gone because I found, to my surprise, that I was hitting my 4 hybrid as far or farther and with better accuracy.  I had been fooled by the trajectory into thinking I was hitting the 7 wood farther.  Going along with that, did some testing to find a hybrid that would give me the same distance and accuracy, but with a higher launch.

2. I had a gap between my 3 wood and the 4 hybrid that really needed to be addressed, so the 7 wood was replaced by a high launch 5 wood.

3. I had significant gaps between my 9 iron and my PW (but NOT between my 8 and 9) and between my gap wedge and my 54* (but NOT between my PW and gap wedge); in other words, gaps in the scoring clubs on one side of each of two clubs but not on the other side.  So I went to work on hitting a 3/4 9 iron and a 3/4 gap wedge to cover those distances; it's an easy shot that's fun to play and a lot better than trying to get extra from the shorter club, but it was a matter of knowing when I needed to hit it.

There's other stuff, but you get the idea.  As to the accuracy of the sensors, my take on that is that if they are missing by a few yards plus or minus, over time that will all wash and the info will be correct enough for me to rely on.  It's a good program; very impressive (at least to me) for the money, and CAN be used in a pretty unobtrusive way during the round.

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#48 North Butte

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 07:54 AM

It's just like Game Golf. All the GPS errors and the lack of knowledge of hole location will wash out over time if you're only interested in knowing how far you hit each club. These are both excellent at providing that information.

The problem some of us have (or at least speaking for myself) is that once I'd confirmed what I already knew about club distances and established my tendencies for left/right/short/long misses, the system (Game Golf in my case) is no longer worth messing with.

My issue is with the pretense that you can analyze your scoring and devise game-improvement strategies uses uncorrected "automagic" data collection by these system. You can't because the errors don't average out. Being off by four yards on the distance of one particular tee shot will certainly wash out. Being off by four yards on the proximity of a shot to the green will certainly not wash out.

Misrecording a 6-foot proximity as being 18 feet does not average out with another occasion where it misrecords a 40-foot proximity as 28 feet. The statistics are hopelessly bogus unless you assiduously correct hole locations, first putt distances and edit errors in whether you were in fairway/rough/bunker. Not to mention the biggest hole in their data which is not accounting for shots blocked out by trees.

Edited by North Butte, 11 July 2017 - 09:48 AM.

Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#49 net_worth

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 09:47 AM

View PostMSchad, on 10 July 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

View Postnet_worth, on 08 July 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

My main issue with Arccos is the dashboard. The original dashboard didn't display data very well and the new dashboard is absolutely atrocious.

I like the new dashboard. HIgh level summary of everything is on the first page; last 5 scores, 5 trending handicap categories, scoring breakdown, driving accuracy and GIRs. More details are available by drilling down.

I do think there is a slight improvement in the data they provide on the landing page. My issue is with the design specifically. The new Golfshot design is an example of a nice, clean design. The Arccos developers and stats people seem to be doing good work and making some progress. The Arccos front end web designers need to be fired. They're doing a poor job of delivering us the data.

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#50 bluedot

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 12:25 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 11 July 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

It's just like Game Golf. All the GPS errors and the lack of knowledge of hole location will wash out over time if you're only interested in knowing how far you hit each club. These are both excellent at providing that information.

The problem some of us have (or at least speaking for myself) is that once I'd confirmed what I already knew about club distances and established my tendencies for left/right/short/long misses, the system (Game Golf in my case) is no longer worth messing with.

My issue is with the pretense that you can analyze your scoring and devise game-improvement strategies uses uncorrected "automagic" data collection by these system. You can't because the errors don't average out. Being off by four yards on the distance of one particular tee shot will certainly wash out. Being off by four yards on the proximity of a shot to the green will certainly not wash out.

Misrecording a 6-foot proximity as being 18 feet does not average out with another occasion where it misrecords a 40-foot proximity as 28 feet. The statistics are hopelessly bogus unless you assiduously correct hole locations, first putt distances and edit errors in whether you were in fairway/rough/bunker. Not to mention the biggest hole in their data which is not accounting for shots blocked out by trees.

I don't think it's a major task at the end of a round to go back and adjust pin locations and any shots that are significantly off in Arccos.  You can do the entire round in less than 10 minutes, and end up with pretty accurate data.  If I allow a shot to be off by any significant amount, that's on me for poor editing.  And fwiw, I've found very, very few cases in Arccos where the detected shot is off more than a few feet; the GPS program on my phone is as good or better than any I've seen.  The single most common error in Arccos BY FAR is detecting extra putts because the putting sensor is so sensitive, but adjusting the number of putts on a hole is a one-touch deal.  Beyond that, it's pretty much just pin positions.

As to "game-improvement strategies", I suppose that depends on what you mean.  For me, if I can get more accurate information about how far I'm hitting each club, and both adjust my set AND work of particular shots to close specific gaps, those are pretty tangible strategies that weren't readily available to me before.  Arccos can't fix my hook or my address position, but it's a reasonably valuable tool for a reasonable price if you want some pretty detailed information about distances, gaps, miss tendencies, and the like.  I'm not really sure what else to expect, especially for this amount of money.


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#51 North Butte

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 12:44 PM

Likewise, it takes me a good 10 minutes or so to post-round edit hole locations and possibly a couple other issues with Game Golf.

View Postbluedot, on 11 July 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

As to "game-improvement strategies", I suppose that depends on what you mean.  For me, if I can get more accurate information about how far I'm hitting each club, and both adjust my set AND work of particular shots to close specific gaps, those are pretty tangible strategies that weren't readily available to me before.  Arccos can't fix my hook or my address position, but it's a reasonably valuable tool for a reasonable price if you want some pretty detailed information about distances, gaps, miss tendencies, and the like.  I'm not really sure what else to expect, especially for this amount of money.

Well with due respect to the fact we're on GolfWRX that is a gear-head's perspective on "game improvement". :busted_cop:

I was referring more to answer questions along the lines of what should I prioritize in my practice, what particular thing(s) do I fall short on frequently enough to have a major impact on my score and just how good or bad is each part of my game relative to my overall scoring.

If you aren't confident in first-putt distances (meaning if you haven't gone back to check and edit them) then it would be foolish to assess your putting based on stats where the underlying distances weren't correct.

If your stat-gathering method doesn't distinguish between chipping out from behind a tree after a bad tee shot versus duffing a shot from the rough then it would foolish to try and decide between tee shots versus iron game in terms of costing you strokes.

If your shot database has uncorrected errors about whether you're in or out of a bunker (fairway or greenside) that would make assessing sand play problematic.

That sort of thing. I'm 100% positive at this point in my golfing life that I'm not going to improve my game (i.e. scoring) by discovering that I don't hit my pitching wedge far enough or that I need to drop a long iron and add another hybrid. Any "game improvement" would have to be a skills improvement. There are so many to choose from it's possible sufficiently detailed stats could help inform a plan.

Although in my case my own detailed stats (collected at great effort with no thanks to Game Golf or Arccos) show I'm pretty much equally bad in any area you can name outside putting. So I can take my pick of any part of the game, improving one thing would be as good as another. I don't think everyone's game has the suck quite so equally apportioned as mine...
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#52 redrover69

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 02:26 PM

So you have to buy the sensors for Arccos? Game golf you dont necessarily have to

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#53 Kmac™

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 02:53 PM

Well you have to buy Arccos and it comes with the sensors. With no sensors there's no data to collect...

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#54 larciel

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 04:08 PM

View Postredrover69, on 11 July 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

So you have to buy the sensors for Arccos? Game golf you dont necessarily have to

$20 a pop if you ever lose or break your sensors...

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#55 bluedot

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 04:25 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 11 July 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

Likewise, it takes me a good 10 minutes or so to post-round edit hole locations and possibly a couple other issues with Game Golf.

View Postbluedot, on 11 July 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

As to "game-improvement strategies", I suppose that depends on what you mean.  For me, if I can get more accurate information about how far I'm hitting each club, and both adjust my set AND work of particular shots to close specific gaps, those are pretty tangible strategies that weren't readily available to me before.  Arccos can't fix my hook or my address position, but it's a reasonably valuable tool for a reasonable price if you want some pretty detailed information about distances, gaps, miss tendencies, and the like.  I'm not really sure what else to expect, especially for this amount of money.

Well with due respect to the fact we're on GolfWRX that is a gear-head's perspective on "game improvement". :busted_cop:

I was referring more to answer questions along the lines of what should I prioritize in my practice, what particular thing(s) do I fall short on frequently enough to have a major impact on my score and just how good or bad is each part of my game relative to my overall scoring.

If you aren't confident in first-putt distances (meaning if you haven't gone back to check and edit them) then it would be foolish to assess your putting based on stats where the underlying distances weren't correct.

If your stat-gathering method doesn't distinguish between chipping out from behind a tree after a bad tee shot versus duffing a shot from the rough then it would foolish to try and decide between tee shots versus iron game in terms of costing you strokes.

If your shot database has uncorrected errors about whether you're in or out of a bunker (fairway or greenside) that would make assessing sand play problematic.

That sort of thing. I'm 100% positive at this point in my golfing life that I'm not going to improve my game (i.e. scoring) by discovering that I don't hit my pitching wedge far enough or that I need to drop a long iron and add another hybrid. Any "game improvement" would have to be a skills improvement. There are so many to choose from it's possible sufficiently detailed stats could help inform a plan.

Although in my case my own detailed stats (collected at great effort with no thanks to Game Golf or Arccos) show I'm pretty much equally bad in any area you can name outside putting. So I can take my pick of any part of the game, improving one thing would be as good as another. I don't think everyone's game has the suck quite so equally apportioned as mine...

I guess we just see this differently, and on multiple levels.  Once you have done the basic editing at the end of the round, the Arccos data is pretty good at telling you exactly where you are strong,  as well as where you are not, and I'm pretty close to 100% confident in the data once I finish the editing process.  And why in the world would I spend the money on a program/product like Arccos and NOT be willing to carefully edit the hole-by-hole to be able to best mine the data?  I know I'm not on Tour, and I know the Shotlink folks aren't following me to collect the data for me; absent that, this is about as good as it gets.

I'd also disagree with the idea that learning what your clubs are actually doing (vs. what you believe they are doing) won't improve your scores.  I can't get to ANY of the par 5's at my home course in two anymore, so I'd stopped hitting the 3W for my second shot a long time ago.  But finding out that I was getting equal or better distance from the shorter shafted and more accurate 4h than I was from my 7W was revealing, and induced me to start leaning heavily on the 4h for the second shot.  It also meant that the 7W should come out of the bag since it and the 4h were the same club distance-wise, and that the 5W should come back, since I found that I had a 24 yd. gap between my 2W and either the 7W or the 4h.  That's good information, and there isn't any real good way to get that without a Trackman or something like Arccos.

Also, when Arccos tells me that I am slightly more likely to miss the fairway to the right than to the left, I can track my misses to the right and see not only where they are happening, but what they cost me and work on eliminating two-way misses; I play a draw, and I do NOT want to miss right!  Arccos, of course, will NOT tell you that you don't hit your PW far enough; it WILL tell you that you have a "smart" distance of 110 with your PW and 123 with your 9 iron.  For ME, that's too big of a gap, and a 3/4 9 iron that goes 115 is the answer.

Arccos also uses the "strokes gained" approach to calculate handicaps for each of 5 parts of your game.  My worst is driving, at 10.3, and my best is putting at +2.1.  BUT since I'm hitting 69.2% of the fairways, the problem there is not accuracy but distance, and at 65 I ain't going to get longer.  So THAT part doesn't worry me, or change my practice plan.  But it also helps me look at my putting and feel confident that I'm pretty proficient, and that the only way to make a lot more putts is to hit my approach shots a lot closer.

I guess I sort of start from the twin perspectives of not feeling like carefully editing my round is a hassle, AND of thinking that more data is a good thing.  Arccos really does make it pretty easy to edit accurately, and the info it provides is pretty comprehensive.

And btw, if you think I'm a gearhead about golf, you should have seen me break down a film when I was a basketball coach!  It was sick...


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#56 North Butte

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 04:35 PM

If Arccos purports to separate out its "strokes gained" without tracking Broadie's category of "obstructed" or "recovery" then it's just using the words "strokes gained" to cash in on Broadie's buzz. That is a CRUCIAL distinction if you want to know how well you are driving the ball and how well you are hitting approach shots.

It's up to you if you want to accept their stats at face value. In the larger scheme of things, it's not like the conclusions you draw are going to always be bogus. There's just a pretty big chance chance that they'll be bogus if you hit a tee shot into trouble more than once a round or so on average. I'm willing to go with "good enough" sometime but not when I've gone to the considerable trouble to collect and post-round edit the data, just to turn around and have a major element of the data mis-classified.
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#57 bluedot

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:17 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 11 July 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

If Arccos purports to separate out its "strokes gained" without tracking Broadie's category of "obstructed" or "recovery" then it's just using the words "strokes gained" to cash in on Broadie's buzz. That is a CRUCIAL distinction if you want to know how well you are driving the ball and how well you are hitting approach shots.

It's up to you if you want to accept their stats at face value. In the larger scheme of things, it's not like the conclusions you draw are going to always be bogus. There's just a pretty big chance chance that they'll be bogus if you hit a tee shot into trouble more than once a round or so on average. I'm willing to go with "good enough" sometime but not when I've gone to the considerable trouble to collect and post-round edit the data, just to turn around and have a major element of the data mis-classified.

Let me make an attempt to explain how Arccos calculates and presents its data; I think there may be a misunderstanding.

Arccos does NOT present it's data in the form of "strokes gained"; that's impossible, since their is no field of competitors against whom you would be gaining or losing strokes.  Rather, Arccos gives you an estimated handicap for each of five categories (as well as an overall handicap) based on what your personal stats project to in each category.  So if Arccos says that I drive the ball like a 10.3 index, the program is basing that on the distance and dispersion data it has accumulated for me vs. other amateur golfers.  (FWIW, my overall handicap as estimated by Arccos is within a stroke of my actual index, slightly lower, which isn't bad considering that I ONLY use Arccos at my home course, where my scores are typically going to be a bit lower than my overall scores, for obvious reasons.)  And if Arccos says that my putting handicap is +2.1, it is in effect saying that my putting stats are what you would expect to see from a +2.1 index player.

Secondly, the issue of shots that are obstructed, or topped, or hit fat, or whatever, are a non-issue that is dealt with in two ways.  First of all, Arccos gives you a "smart distance" and "smart range" for each club, in which they disregard shots that are clear outliers and calculate the distance that you are hitting the ball on a well-struck shot.  So now you have an estimated handicap for each phase of the game, such as driving, that includes ALL shots with the driver, but also a tool that gives you an average and a range for well-struck shots.  And finally, you have the option to edit out any shot that you wish if you don't want it to be calculated into the stats.

So suppose that on the 10th hole I try to hit a high cut with my driver (NOT my strong suit, but the shot that is called for on that hole.)  I overcut it, and it hits a tree 100 yds out, and kicks right into the woods, ending up only 80 yds. from the tee.  I then take a 7 iron and punch the ball out into the fairway, and go on my merry way toward a double bogey.  How does Arccos handle this?

Well, the terrible drive figures into my driving stats and my estimated driving handicap.  But it would NOT figure into my "smart" distance or range; I can have it both ways, in effect.  The 7 iron likewise does not figure into my smart numbers for THAT club, but would figure into my approach handicap UNLESS I tell the program to disregard/delete that shot, which is my option.  I NEVER do that, btw, because it would skew my approach handicap, and the punch out isn't figuring into the distance numbers for the 7 iron anyway.

Likewise, Arccos knows that when I hit the 7 iron from 5 yds. off the green that I'm chipping; that shot figures into my chipping handicap, but NOT into the approach handicap or the distance numbers for the 7 iron.

For my money (approx. $250, I think?) Arccos is a pretty clever piece of programming.  I turn the app on on my phone on my way to the first tee, then never touch it again during a round unless I want to use the GPS, and then edit for a few minutes afterwards.  For that, I'm getting pretty solid info, presented in a pretty simple and useful way.  What I do with that info, of course, is up to me.

Hope that helps.

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#58 North Butte

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:26 PM

I thought you (or someone) had referred upthread to strokes gained being present in Arccos's stats. Perhaps I misread or misremembered.

I do suspect that it might insufficiently penalize your "driving handicap" for drives that you have to chip out. But if they indeed have their GPS maps coded well enough to know the difference between an off-line drive that leaves you a shot to the green vs. an off-line drive that leaves you chipping sideways or backward then they are a huge step ahead of Game Golf.
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#59 Kmac™

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:58 AM

Pretty sure strokes gained IS present in the stats online for Arccos.

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#60 bluedot

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:18 AM

View PostKmac™, on 12 July 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

Pretty sure strokes gained IS present in the stats online for Arccos.

I've got 73 rounds logged in with Arccos 360, and I haven't seen anything that provides "strokes gained" information on either my phone app or the website.  If you have seen something with strokes gained on Arccos, I stand corrected.  Arccos DOES base the estimated handicaps for each of the five areas on strokes gained data, but they present it as an estimated handicap.

I am only guessing here, but as I mentioned above, I assume that the reason the data is presented that way is that "strokes gained" requires a field of players to gain or lose AGAINST, at least as I understand it.  When Broadie shows that Luke Donald gained 0.95 strokes per round putting in 2011, he's comparing Donald to 204 other PGA Tour pros with at least 30 rounds on Tour that year.  I think it's safe to say that Donald would have gained MORE than 0.95 against the field in the Member-Guest at Bushwood, so the field does matter.

The other reason, of course, to present the data on Arccos in the form of estimated handicaps is familiarity.  When Arccos tells me that my estimated handicap for approach shots is 8.8, I understand what that means, at least in general terms.  If somehow they could present it as "strokes gained" vs. other single digit index golfers and it was 0.95, my question would be, "OK, is that good or bad?"; much more explanation would be called for.

Hope that helps.


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