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Tour AD-GP or Tour AD-TP??


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#1 GoPios25

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 01:32 AM

I am pre-ordering the new Cobra F7+ and and wondering your guys' thoughts on these two shafts. I have an M1 430 right now with a Speeder 661 2.0 Tour Spec X and get fairly decent numbers. Anybody compared the GP and TP head to head?


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#2 roadtrippin4550

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 12:19 PM

I am going to be doing just that on Saturday. Unfortunately, it will not be on a launch monitor so I won't have any numbers for you but I will let you know how it goes.

What I have heard from a buddy out in CA is that the TP is the DI on steroids. Still launches about the same but with noticeably less spin.
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#3 GoPios25

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 01:08 PM

That's what I've heard too. I've been trying to get my hands on the two to compare. Hopefully I can soon

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#4 Gtyler14

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 03:22 PM

I was wondering about the TP myself and how it compared to the DI. I've played the DI in the past and use a KK silver tini and I was going to test a few different shafts and considered the TP. Post your thoughts about it when you get a chance to test it.

Edited by Gtyler14, 14 December 2016 - 03:22 PM.

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#5 jackbauer

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 04:29 PM

I've hit the GP on the range (about 30-35 swings) and found it to be extremely boardy. The GP is an update to the BB (which I have in my driver) just as the TP is an update to the DI (which I have in my 3-wood and 5-wood), so I would expect different launch results. I like the ones I have but wasn't at all a fan of the GP.


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#6 Bomber_11

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 04:41 PM

I ordered an M2 driver and 3-wood with the AD GP in them. I wasn't at all pleased with the performance. Yes they were long, but no longer than my other shafts. For me, and my swing, the AD BB in driver and AD DI in 3-wood is the best setup.

The GP was the least-smooth feeling Graphite Design I've ever swung. I've demoed AD DI, AD BB, AD GP, AD DJ, AD MT - I would compare AD GP closer to an Ozik Red Tie than to a Graphite Design.

If you order a flex softer, it may feel better. But at 115 swing speed I hit the AD GP 6X and wasn't impressed.
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#7 Judge440

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 04:45 PM

View PostBomber_11, on 14 December 2016 - 04:41 PM, said:

I ordered an M2 driver and 3-wood with the AD GP in them. I wasn't at all pleased with the performance. Yes they were long, but no longer than my other shafts. For me, and my swing, the AD BB in driver and AD DI in 3-wood is the best setup.

The GP was the least-smooth feeling Graphite Design I've ever swung. I've demoed AD DI, AD BB, AD GP, AD DJ, AD MT - I would compare AD GP closer to an Ozik Red Tie than to a Graphite Design.

If you order a flex softer, it may feel better. But at 115 swing speed I hit the AD GP 6X and wasn't impressed.

So the BB feels much better than the GP for you?  What was the difference in flight/spin for you?
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#8 Bomber_11

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 05:32 PM

View PostJudge440, on 14 December 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

View PostBomber_11, on 14 December 2016 - 04:41 PM, said:

I ordered an M2 driver and 3-wood with the AD GP in them. I wasn't at all pleased with the performance. Yes they were long, but no longer than my other shafts. For me, and my swing, the AD BB in driver and AD DI in 3-wood is the best setup.

The GP was the least-smooth feeling Graphite Design I've ever swung. I've demoed AD DI, AD BB, AD GP, AD DJ, AD MT - I would compare AD GP closer to an Ozik Red Tie than to a Graphite Design.

If you order a flex softer, it may feel better. But at 115 swing speed I hit the AD GP 6X and wasn't impressed.

So the BB feels much better than the GP for you?  What was the difference in flight/spin for you?

Yes the BB in a 6X felt much better than the GP in a 6X.

The BB launches lower, and had similar spin #'s to the GP (2200-2500 w/ my M2).

I loved my BB 6X
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#9 lthelwpn

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 05:50 PM

I have the AD TP in my M2, it is exactly what it says. I am getting the high launch with( Kiyoshi black) kind of spin. I actually can't spin it enough. I have a + angle of attack and I am not getting it to spin enough. It's the AD TP 7S.


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#10 GoPios25

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 11:40 PM

Finally got a chance to hit the GP today. It was the 6TX model. It felt pretty good but I like the DI better so I'm hoping that since the TP is a replacement to the DI that it'll feel similar if not better


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#11 GMR2iron

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 05:29 AM

For you guys that have hit all these GD shafts, how does the Matrix Black Tie compare to the BB, GP, and TP? I like the low launch/low spin boardy shafts, just curious as to which GD shaft plays similar to a Black Tie....
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#12 Bomber_11

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 10:27 AM

View PostGMR2iron, on 15 December 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

For you guys that have hit all these GD shafts, how does the Matrix Black Tie compare to the BB, GP, and TP? I like the low launch/low spin boardy shafts, just curious as to which GD shaft plays similar to a Black Tie....

The BB feels much less boardy than the Black Tie - I'd rank the BB as the smoothest stout shaft I've ever hit. It'll launch a little higher than Black Tie, with similar (possibly a little higher) spin.

The GP feels a lot like the Black Tie - but it will launch higher (similar spin #'s). Never do any tipping on a GP - the stiffest part of the GP is the tip section - so by tipping it you're actually softening the shaft and making it perform poorly.

The TP feels a lot smoother than BB, GP, or Black Tie - and will launch slightly higher than the GP w/ less spin.

If you like low launch + low spin + boardy I don't know that Graphite Design is the place to look. You need to be putting Project X Hzrdus into consideration. Especially Hzrdus Black.

Edited by Bomber_11, 15 December 2016 - 10:27 AM.

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#13 jackbauer

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 11:00 AM

View PostGMR2iron, on 15 December 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

For you guys that have hit all these GD shafts, how does the Matrix Black Tie compare to the BB, GP, and TP? I like the low launch/low spin boardy shafts, just curious as to which GD shaft plays similar to a Black Tie....

I agree with Bomber_11 except for the last point. To me, low launch/low spin/boardy describes the GP perfectly.

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#14 Roadking_6

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 11:17 AM

View Postjackbauer, on 15 December 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

View PostGMR2iron, on 15 December 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

For you guys that have hit all these GD shafts, how does the Matrix Black Tie compare to the BB, GP, and TP? I like the low launch/low spin boardy shafts, just curious as to which GD shaft plays similar to a Black Tie....

I agree with Bomber_11 except for the last point. To me, low launch/low spin/boardy describes the GP perfectly.
Disagree. To me, Low Spin, Mid Low launch, silky smooth feel is a perfect description. I hated the AD BB and think the GP feels 100x better.

GP is one of the best shafts on the market for my swing and taste.

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#15 markheardjr

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 04:31 PM

View PostBomber_11, on 15 December 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostGMR2iron, on 15 December 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

For you guys that have hit all these GD shafts, how does the Matrix Black Tie compare to the BB, GP, and TP? I like the low launch/low spin boardy shafts, just curious as to which GD shaft plays similar to a Black Tie....

The BB feels much less boardy than the Black Tie - I'd rank the BB as the smoothest stout shaft I've ever hit. It'll launch a little higher than Black Tie, with similar (possibly a little higher) spin.

The GP feels a lot like the Black Tie - but it will launch higher (similar spin #'s). Never do any tipping on a GP - the stiffest part of the GP is the tip section - so by tipping it you're actually softening the shaft and making it perform poorly.

The TP feels a lot smoother than BB, GP, or Black Tie - and will launch slightly higher than the GP w/ less spin.

If you like low launch + low spin + boardy I don't know that Graphite Design is the place to look. You need to be putting Project X Hzrdus into consideration. Especially Hzrdus Black.

The BB is a wet noodle and dispersion was all over the place and is no where near what I would label a "stout" shaft. It is not made for hitters or late release guys. Black tie is and GP is. GP has a softer butt and firmer tip and actually delivers low launch and low spin. BB is mid and is ok for guys with a big sweep and high positive AoA, like +3° or more. GP really is much lower launch IMO. IMO the new MFS Black Tie, the 60M4 or whatever it is, is closer to a GP. The old original 7M3 black tie is a stout beast. The new one is smoother. (These are similar to DG profiles or the Modus Tour120 iron shaft, softer butt, stiff middle and stiff tip.) These shafts feel smooth in the transition with a soft butt section while you start the downswing, but you get a stiffer boardy feel at impact with more vibration.

GD has made a lot of softer shafts since the Di was all the rage. They have made their fair share of scary monsters in the past for the bombers. Throttle, PM702/902, p9003, M9003, Z9003 (So stout they stopped making it as soon as they started.) YSQst, etc etc. They make strong shafts.


The TP is butt and mid firm and tip is softer with the rapid decrease in diameter. (This is similar to the KBS Tour V or the Modus Tour130 iron shaft.) What you get is a firmer shaft with a softer feel at impact. Overall the shaft is actually decently stiff, its the soft tip that makes it feel softer at impact. High launch from the softer tip yet overall stiffness helps the golfer deliver the club to achieve a lower spin condition.

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#16 noodle3872

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 06:47 PM

I would be trying the Tensei Pro line from MRC.  The Blue is mid launch and the White is low launch.  Both feel amazing!

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#17 Judge440

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 10:52 AM

Thinking of giving AD-TP a go in driver and AD-DI in fairway and maybe Tensei Blue Pro's as well.  I have GP's, Fuji Pro Tour Specs, Speeder Evo2's...looking for happy medium/balance.
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#18 JiBlanc

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 03:58 PM

Can't speak on the TP unfortunately because I have never hit it. As far as the GP goes I absolutely love mine. I have the Dustin Johnson shaft as well (661 2.0 Tour Spec X) and tried it on the range 1 or 2 times and preferred the feel of the AD-GP much more. The 661 shaft felt boardier to me then the GP. I play the AD-DI in my 3 wood and am very happy with it's performance. If the TP is an upgraded version of the DI then I don't think you can go wrong with either the TP or the GP. GP's flight will be lower swing for swing but I have no problem launching the GP when needed. Good luck!
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#19 coopizzez

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 06:43 PM

I've hit both the GP and TP.  I've always thought the DI played soft and never liked it in a driver.  I've tried the GP 6x plus and 7x in a driver.  Stout, boardy, but I liked it.  I've hit the TP in 6x, 7x in the driver.  Much, much better feel than the GP, similar spin, not soft like the DI.  I have the TP 8x in 917 3 and 5 woods.  Unreal.  Ballspeed, feel, performance are awesome.  Trying the TP 7 TX next week...

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#20 coopizzez

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 06:50 PM

View Postnoodle3872, on 15 December 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

I would be trying the Tensei Pro line from MRC.  The Blue is mid launch and the White is low launch.  Both feel amazing!

In my 917 5 wood, the TP 8x had more ball speed for me.  Up against tensei pro blue 80tx..same tipping, same length.  I was surprised by that...both awesome shafts, but the TP was better for me.


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#21 dpb5031

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 08:53 AM

Are you guys tipping the TP to stiffen slightly, or is that a no-no like with the GP?
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#22 mackepa

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 09:22 AM

View Postdpb5031, on 10 January 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

Are you guys tipping the TP to stiffen slightly, or is that a no-no like with the GP?

I was fit at the ECPC into The TP and my fitter tipped it an inch. So far I really like the feel of this shaft. I'm not 100% sure why I like it so much but to me it just feels stable. It feels like it kicks the same whether I go after one or if i bunt one to keep it in play.

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 02:05 PM

View Postmackepa, on 10 January 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

View Postdpb5031, on 10 January 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

Are you guys tipping the TP to stiffen slightly, or is that a no-no like with the GP?

I was fit at the ECPC into The TP and my fitter tipped it an inch. So far I really like the feel of this shaft. I'm not 100% sure why I like it so much but to me it just feels stable. It feels like it kicks the same whether I go after one or if i bunt one to keep it in play.

What's your SS with the Driver?  I'm looking at getting a TP, generally 104-108 and looking at the TP 7S, TP7S tipped, or TP 7X.  Thanks.
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#24 Peanut191

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 02:13 PM

View Postmarkheardjr, on 15 December 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

View PostBomber_11, on 15 December 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostGMR2iron, on 15 December 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

For you guys that have hit all these GD shafts, how does the Matrix Black Tie compare to the BB, GP, and TP? I like the low launch/low spin boardy shafts, just curious as to which GD shaft plays similar to a Black Tie....

The BB feels much less boardy than the Black Tie - I'd rank the BB as the smoothest stout shaft I've ever hit. It'll launch a little higher than Black Tie, with similar (possibly a little higher) spin.

The GP feels a lot like the Black Tie - but it will launch higher (similar spin #'s). Never do any tipping on a GP - the stiffest part of the GP is the tip section - so by tipping it you're actually softening the shaft and making it perform poorly.

The TP feels a lot smoother than BB, GP, or Black Tie - and will launch slightly higher than the GP w/ less spin.

If you like low launch + low spin + boardy I don't know that Graphite Design is the place to look. You need to be putting Project X Hzrdus into consideration. Especially Hzrdus Black.

The BB is a wet noodle and dispersion was all over the place and is no where near what I would label a "stout" shaft. It is not made for hitters or late release guys. Black tie is and GP is. GP has a softer butt and firmer tip and actually delivers low launch and low spin. BB is mid and is ok for guys with a big sweep and high positive AoA, like +3° or more. GP really is much lower launch IMO. IMO the new MFS Black Tie, the 60M4 or whatever it is, is closer to a GP. The old original 7M3 black tie is a stout beast. The new one is smoother. (These are similar to DG profiles or the Modus Tour120 iron shaft, softer butt, stiff middle and stiff tip.) These shafts feel smooth in the transition with a soft butt section while you start the downswing, but you get a stiffer boardy feel at impact with more vibration.

GD has made a lot of softer shafts since the Di was all the rage. They have made their fair share of scary monsters in the past for the bombers. Throttle, PM702/902, p9003, M9003, Z9003 (So stout they stopped making it as soon as they started.) YSQst, etc etc. They make strong shafts.


The TP is butt and mid firm and tip is softer with the rapid decrease in diameter. (This is similar to the KBS Tour V or the Modus Tour130 iron shaft.) What you get is a firmer shaft with a softer feel at impact. Overall the shaft is actually decently stiff, its the soft tip that makes it feel softer at impact. High launch from the softer tip yet overall stiffness helps the golfer deliver the club to achieve a lower spin condition.

I thought the TP was firm butt and mid, but stiff tip?
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24

#25 mackepa

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 02:33 PM

View PostHookasaurus Rex, on 10 January 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

View Postmackepa, on 10 January 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

View Postdpb5031, on 10 January 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

Are you guys tipping the TP to stiffen slightly, or is that a no-no like with the GP?

I was fit at the ECPC into The TP and my fitter tipped it an inch. So far I really like the feel of this shaft. I'm not 100% sure why I like it so much but to me it just feels stable. It feels like it kicks the same whether I go after one or if i bunt one to keep it in play.

What's your SS with the Driver?  I'm looking at getting a TP, generally 104-108 and looking at the TP 7S, TP7S tipped, or TP 7X.  Thanks.
I'm about 107mph. My fitter said I could handle the X but wanted me to do Stiff tipped 1" because I preferred to feel a shaft kick a bit.

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Callaway WITB

Rogue SubZero  8* w/ AD TP 6s 44.75"

Epic 13.5 w/ AD TP 7s 42.75"

Apex Hybrid 18* w/ AD DI 85s

Apex Hybrid 23* W KBS Proto HYB 95s

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25

#26 CircleC29

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:57 PM

View PostPeanut191, on 10 January 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

View Postmarkheardjr, on 15 December 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

View PostBomber_11, on 15 December 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostGMR2iron, on 15 December 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

For you guys that have hit all these GD shafts, how does the Matrix Black Tie compare to the BB, GP, and TP? I like the low launch/low spin boardy shafts, just curious as to which GD shaft plays similar to a Black Tie....

The BB feels much less boardy than the Black Tie - I'd rank the BB as the smoothest stout shaft I've ever hit. It'll launch a little higher than Black Tie, with similar (possibly a little higher) spin.

The GP feels a lot like the Black Tie - but it will launch higher (similar spin #'s). Never do any tipping on a GP - the stiffest part of the GP is the tip section - so by tipping it you're actually softening the shaft and making it perform poorly.

The TP feels a lot smoother than BB, GP, or Black Tie - and will launch slightly higher than the GP w/ less spin.

If you like low launch + low spin + boardy I don't know that Graphite Design is the place to look. You need to be putting Project X Hzrdus into consideration. Especially Hzrdus Black.

The BB is a wet noodle and dispersion was all over the place and is no where near what I would label a "stout" shaft. It is not made for hitters or late release guys. Black tie is and GP is. GP has a softer butt and firmer tip and actually delivers low launch and low spin. BB is mid and is ok for guys with a big sweep and high positive AoA, like +3° or more. GP really is much lower launch IMO. IMO the new MFS Black Tie, the 60M4 or whatever it is, is closer to a GP. The old original 7M3 black tie is a stout beast. The new one is smoother. (These are similar to DG profiles or the Modus Tour120 iron shaft, softer butt, stiff middle and stiff tip.) These shafts feel smooth in the transition with a soft butt section while you start the downswing, but you get a stiffer boardy feel at impact with more vibration.

GD has made a lot of softer shafts since the Di was all the rage. They have made their fair share of scary monsters in the past for the bombers. Throttle, PM702/902, p9003, M9003, Z9003 (So stout they stopped making it as soon as they started.) YSQst, etc etc. They make strong shafts.


The TP is butt and mid firm and tip is softer with the rapid decrease in diameter. (This is similar to the KBS Tour V or the Modus Tour130 iron shaft.) What you get is a firmer shaft with a softer feel at impact. Overall the shaft is actually decently stiff, its the soft tip that makes it feel softer at impact. High launch from the softer tip yet overall stiffness helps the golfer deliver the club to achieve a lower spin condition.

I thought the TP was firm butt and mid, but stiff tip?


Tour-AD-Comparison-Chart-TP (1).jpg
Contents of bag subject to change.

26

#27 dpb5031

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 06:57 AM

View Postmackepa, on 10 January 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

View PostHookasaurus Rex, on 10 January 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

View Postmackepa, on 10 January 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

View Postdpb5031, on 10 January 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

Are you guys tipping the TP to stiffen slightly, or is that a no-no like with the GP?

I was fit at the ECPC into The TP and my fitter tipped it an inch. So far I really like the feel of this shaft. I'm not 100% sure why I like it so much but to me it just feels stable. It feels like it kicks the same whether I go after one or if i bunt one to keep it in play.

What's your SS with the Driver?  I'm looking at getting a TP, generally 104-108 and looking at the TP 7S, TP7S tipped, or TP 7X.  Thanks.
I'm about 107mph. My fitter said I could handle the X but wanted me to do Stiff tipped 1" because I preferred to feel a shaft kick a bit.
Practically identical to my scenario.  I'm 105-107 ss with a moderate transition/sweeping type load.  I like to be able to feel the shaft load and kick, but also want stability through impact.  

Funny thing is I've played shafts of all different profiles, from x flex boardy profiles in bore thru driver heads (when drivers and balls were more spinny), to pretty flexible lightweights (Myazaki).  Somehow I seem to adapt my swing to make any of them work reasonably well as long as the head loft matches the shaft profile to produce a desirable trajectory.
USGA Index: ~2

WITB:
2018 Taylormade M4 8.5 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 63 S
Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 S
Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green S
Ping G 22 Hybrid (2 flat) - Ping Tour 80 S
Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
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Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
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#28 3woodvt

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:35 PM

Hit the AD GP 7X today and liked immediately.  Increased launch and decreased spin (about 200-300 avg).  Beat my Tour65X by about 6-7 yards on avg.  Dispersion better too.  Fitter told me the X or S mattered little as I needed the frequency around 6.4 as I'm perfect for KBS120TourS irons at 6.0.  Going to frequency test the X and S in the 75g versions to find the perfect shaft to fit me and for me to pay no attention to the S or X rating as we dialed it in to this exact measurement.  Great experience getting fitted for a driver shaft first time.  The downside is the price.  Also hit this against the EPIC subzero 9* with Fuji and another stiff shaft (don't remember the ones) and the AD GP Ping LS 9* combo beat it for me by about 15 yards and much straiter on an average.  Ball speeds at 160 Launch 16 and carry was 275 avg (best 282 carry).  Ping TourX65 was similar with carry around 268 and 158-159 ball speeds,  EPIC zero was in the mid 260's and high 150's ball speed (but I've never been able to get along with a Callaway Driver as I just don't ever get along with them (could of been the shafts too I suppose).  Picking up tomorrow and looking forward to working it in on the course later.  I personally thought the 65X Tour shaft was much stouter and stiffer than the AD GP when just bobbling it around and swinging but the numbers don't lie and the feel of the AD GP was far superior in loading and releasing for me..  Good luck.  SS was 105 low to 110 high avg around 108.
Also going to go from 45" finished length to 44 3/4.  Changed port weight on G LS after I had added about 6g of HM and playing D7 to get down to around D5.  Justin at Continental Golf did my fitting and was exceptional with his 16 years experience.  If you're in the Raleigh NC area I highly recommend these guys.  Spent over an hour with me and gave me a tour of the custom finishing department and everything they do.  All the guys inside came out and met me, introduced themselves and made me feel at home.  A very pleasant experience and I don't mind giving them my money as they are very customer service oriented.  First Class++

PS.  We also tried the older GD DI in 7X and it was a total failure for me as it just didn't fit my swing.  Glad I did the fitting and didn't chase shafts by guessing like I did in the past.  Justin commented that the DI was just totally wrong for me and the numbers obviously pointed it out and the feel for me was obvious as well.

Edited by 3woodvt, 11 January 2017 - 07:39 PM.

Ping G LS 9* Graphite Design AD-GP 7X D3 44 3/4
Srixon F65 13.5* Miyazaki 6X  D2 43
Srixon 20* KBS V driving iron D2
Srixon Z945 4-PW KBS TourS 120 D1
Cleveland 2.0 50,**54**,59* D3
Ping Zing TR 35" Lamkin Deep Etched Chord
Srixon Z Star.
Lamkin Wrap Tech Midsize

28

#29 justwellsy

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:39 PM

if you really want a good shaft, skip both of these and get an M9003!
Taylormade M2 9.5 set to 7.5 (Matrix Ozik 70 X-Stiff)
Callaway X2 Hot 3 Deep 14.5 Deg X-stiff (Aldila Rogue Green)
(Hybrid Out) Slot to be filled
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Callaway MD2 50 deg
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Callaway MD2 60 Deg
(Putter Out) Slot to be filled
Ball: Apply for position

I replaced the driver AND IRONS so now all the other clubs are nervous!

29

#30 Palauan Hammer

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:41 PM

Nice results 3woodvt!

I'm loving my GP 7x, it's really knocked some spin off my drives which I actually needed. Weird thing is it doesn't feel boardy at all to me, nice smooth load and some kick through the ball. Shaft feels "dense" at impact compared to the OG Whiteboard 73x, like it filters out the bad vibes LOL

View Postjustwellsy, on 11 January 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

if you really want a good shaft, skip both of these and get an M9003!

Someday, after I save a bunch of lunch money I'll grab one of these to try!

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