Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

Swing Thoughts or Feel Thoughts?..That There Is Even A Discussion Amazes Me..


67 replies to this topic

#1 Forged4ever

Forged4ever

    Putting is 98%+ Mental.....

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 14,361 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 183106
  • Joined: 05/26/2012
  • Location:The Burgh/Hdcp: My gene pool
GolfWRX Likes : 25209

Posted 29 November 2016 - 11:15 AM

This is an excellent article by Jim that I came across in the Opinion area....

http://www.golfwrx.c...to-better-golf/

My title sort of gives my views and thoughts away though I would ask that those members who don't state their cap below their avatar please state it in their post if they are not a frequent poster and their ability/cap is not known.

Thanks much :)

I myself believe that it is a process where by one goes from having a key swing/mechanical thought or two to doing enough reps both slow mo/mirror work in addition to balls on the line to where one has gained the confidence to focus totally on visualizing the target and the FEELING and VISION of the swing necessary to propel the ball there.

I do not know a Player(Plus Am or Pro) who has swing thoughts in their head as they address a ball on a course in a competitive situation.

And yea, I'm aware that my GOAT, Jack, stated that he could have up to FIVE swing thoughts in his head at once standing over a ball. Bear in mind that he also said to a roomful of reporters that he had NEVER missed a putt of 5' or closer with either the lead or the tournament on the line on Sunday, when one of those present tried to remind him of that exact very thing happening only only two Sundays before, and obviously it was on tape.

Jack politely though firmly didn't give an inch in keeping up his denial. That's how Jack's mind worked and I know for a fact that he believed that.

THAT is why he achieved what he did.

Anyhoo, he doesn't count, lol.

Have a great week Gals & Gents :)

All the Best,
RP

Edited by Forged4ever, 29 November 2016 - 11:46 AM.

GHIN: Beefeater 24

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#2 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 3,195 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1919

Posted 29 November 2016 - 09:01 PM

That article was based on a long phone conversation with Zak and Ben, and the first question they asked me was how my overall teaching philosophy was different than more traditional instruction. I answered "well, in a lot of ways, but one of the big ones is that I use a mind/body connection approach to teaching."

Which has  both traditional roots in other disciplines, especially Asian martial arts, and in modern Neuroscience. Mind/body connection paradigm means that your subconscious mind is the source from which all skills flow, and thus all teaching/learning has to be directed to programming into the SM the new movement patterns. It means that conscious mind golf is both not very effective and can be very discouraging and frustrating to the golfer, since he or she is trying to achieve an outcome using a tool - conscious thinking mind - that is incapable of success. We talked a bit about reaction time studies and the limits of voluntary control over high speed moving body parts.

Next question was - how do you do that SM programming?  My answer was mainly slow motion mirror work, but also the concept of Deep Insight as the foundation.

And that evolved into what the article itself is mainly about - the difference between thought and feeling, and how only feeling has the possibility of really being effective, especially in the early and mid stages of swing changes, since with feeling you have direct perception of the reality of your body motion. With thought, you  are engaging in fantasy about your body motion. Which means you are paying attention to that fantasy image or words in your head and thus NOT paying attention to your body.

It was a very interesting and enjoyable conversation about a topic that I believe is vitally important but one that gets very little attention in Internet Golfland.

2

#3 swhogan35

swhogan35

    Teaching Professional

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 102 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 331989
  • Joined: 08/06/2014
  • Location:Chicago, IL
GolfWRX Likes : 18

Posted 29 November 2016 - 09:30 PM

 Forged4ever, on 29 November 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

This is an excellent article by Jim that I came across in the Opinion area....

http://www.golfwrx.c...to-better-golf/

My title sort of gives my views and thoughts away though I would ask that those members who don't state their cap below their avatar please state it in their post if they are not a frequent poster and their ability/cap is not known.

Thanks much :)

I myself believe that it is a process where by one goes from having a key swing/mechanical thought or two to doing enough reps both slow mo/mirror work in addition to balls on the line to where one has gained the confidence to focus totally on visualizing the target and the FEELING and VISION of the swing necessary to propel the ball there.

I do not know a Player(Plus Am or Pro) who has swing thoughts in their head as they address a ball on a course in a competitive situation.

And yea, I'm aware that my GOAT, Jack, stated that he could have up to FIVE swing thoughts in his head at once standing over a ball. Bear in mind that he also said to a roomful of reporters that he had NEVER missed a putt of 5' or closer with either the lead or the tournament on the line on Sunday, when one of those present tried to remind him of that exact very thing happening only only two Sundays before, and obviously it was on tape.

Jack politely though firmly didn't give an inch in keeping up his denial. That's how Jack's mind worked and I know for a fact that he believed that.

THAT is why he achieved what he did.

Anyhoo, he doesn't count, lol.

Have a great week Gals & Gents :)

All the Best,
RP

Jack believed he didn't miss a putt, because he was a spot putter, he only worried about hitting the spot in front of his ball he was aiming for, and he never missed it.  That's why he believed he never missed a putt, because he handled all he could control and the rest was up to other things.  But that's beside the point.  

As far as feels and thoughts.  I think it's very important to have a feedback system that can frequently correct your feels for the day, because feels can change daily based on how you sleep, if you have injuries or aches, did you get in a fight with your spouse?  These all effect our feels for the day and we need to understand the fundamentals of our swings so we can develop of our feels for that particular day.  That's why I think you see Trackman on the range before events so much, so players can associate the feel of their swing with the feedback from the radar.  Great topic!

3

#4 mwkbmw

mwkbmw

    Play. Fast.

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,478 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 184910
  • Joined: 06/07/2012
  • Location:North Carolina
  • Handicap:5.5
GolfWRX Likes : 1561

Posted 29 November 2016 - 09:31 PM

 Forged4ever, on 29 November 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

This is an excellent article by Jim that I came across in the Opinion area....

http://www.golfwrx.c...to-better-golf/

My title sort of gives my views and thoughts away though I would ask that those members who don't state their cap below their avatar please state it in their post if they are not a frequent poster and their ability/cap is not known.

Thanks much :)

I myself believe that it is a process where by one goes from having a key swing/mechanical thought or two to doing enough reps both slow mo/mirror work in addition to balls on the line to where one has gained the confidence to focus totally on visualizing the target and the FEELING and VISION of the swing necessary to propel the ball there.

I do not know a Player(Plus Am or Pro) who has swing thoughts in their head as they address a ball on a course in a competitive situation.

And yea, I'm aware that my GOAT, Jack, stated that he could have up to FIVE swing thoughts in his head at once standing over a ball. Bear in mind that he also said to a roomful of reporters that he had NEVER missed a putt of 5' or closer with either the lead or the tournament on the line on Sunday, when one of those present tried to remind him of that exact very thing happening only only two Sundays before, and obviously it was on tape.

Jack politely though firmly didn't give an inch in keeping up his denial. That's how Jack's mind worked and I know for a fact that he believed that.

THAT is why he achieved what he did.

Anyhoo, he doesn't count, lol.

Have a great week Gals & Gents :)

All the Best,
RP

LOL, I guess that is why I have avoided tournament golf since I joined GolfWRX and started reading the Instruction forum.

Edit: My head is still spinning trying to understand how a non-linear putter thinks.

Edited by mwkbmw, 29 November 2016 - 09:32 PM.

Ping i25 9* Tour Stiff
Callaway 3Deep w/PX 6.0
Ping i20 2 Hy & Idea Pro 4 Hy
Ping i25 5-UW
Scotty Cameron Notchback
Ping Tour Gorge 54 & 58

4

#5 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 3,195 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1919

Posted 29 November 2016 - 10:12 PM

 swhogan35, on 29 November 2016 - 09:30 PM, said:

 Forged4ever, on 29 November 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

This is an excellent article by Jim that I came across in the Opinion area....

http://www.golfwrx.c...to-better-golf/

My title sort of gives my views and thoughts away though I would ask that those members who don't state their cap below their avatar please state it in their post if they are not a frequent poster and their ability/cap is not known.

Thanks much :)

I myself believe that it is a process where by one goes from having a key swing/mechanical thought or two to doing enough reps both slow mo/mirror work in addition to balls on the line to where one has gained the confidence to focus totally on visualizing the target and the FEELING and VISION of the swing necessary to propel the ball there.

I do not know a Player(Plus Am or Pro) who has swing thoughts in their head as they address a ball on a course in a competitive situation.

And yea, I'm aware that my GOAT, Jack, stated that he could have up to FIVE swing thoughts in his head at once standing over a ball. Bear in mind that he also said to a roomful of reporters that he had NEVER missed a putt of 5' or closer with either the lead or the tournament on the line on Sunday, when one of those present tried to remind him of that exact very thing happening only only two Sundays before, and obviously it was on tape.

Jack politely though firmly didn't give an inch in keeping up his denial. That's how Jack's mind worked and I know for a fact that he believed that.

THAT is why he achieved what he did.

Anyhoo, he doesn't count, lol.

Have a great week Gals & Gents :)

All the Best,
RP

Jack believed he didn't miss a putt, because he was a spot putter, he only worried about hitting the spot in front of his ball he was aiming for, and he never missed it.  That's why he believed he never missed a putt, because he handled all he could control and the rest was up to other things.  But that's beside the point.  

As far as feels and thoughts.  I think it's very important to have a feedback system that can frequently correct your feels for the day, because feels can change daily based on how you sleep, if you have injuries or aches, did you get in a fight with your spouse?  These all effect our feels for the day and we need to understand the fundamentals of our swings so we can develop of our feels for that particular day.  That's why I think you see Trackman on the range before events so much, so players can associate the feel of their swing with the feedback from the radar.  Great topic!

I agree with you on the fact that feels can change daily. But I think with practice and a focused mind, you can reduce that by a fair amount. The key is to really know with 100% clarity the clear difference between feel and thinking. It is literally the very first thing  I teach to a new student.  

In the Three Sensory Channels exercise in the article, I often find that students will believe that they are in Feel Channel when in fact if they really pay attention they will find that they are actually in Visual or Auditory Channel. Mainly because they are in those two modes throughout the working day.The mind goes into default or habit mode. If that is the case, it is one reason why so many golfers get so frustrated with their golf shots. "Waking up" to the reality of your body is a really Big Deal in my view - in life too, not just in golf. Switching off your thinking mind (visual and auditory channels) and turning on your feeling mind is a key step in a lot of things in life.


5

#6 Forged4ever

Forged4ever

    Putting is 98%+ Mental.....

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 14,361 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 183106
  • Joined: 05/26/2012
  • Location:The Burgh/Hdcp: My gene pool
GolfWRX Likes : 25209

Posted 30 November 2016 - 01:29 AM

 swhogan35, on 29 November 2016 - 09:30 PM, said:

 Forged4ever, on 29 November 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

This is an excellent article by Jim that I came across in the Opinion area....

http://www.golfwrx.c...to-better-golf/

My title sort of gives my views and thoughts away though I would ask that those members who don't state their cap below their avatar please state it in their post if they are not a frequent poster and their ability/cap is not known.

Thanks much :)

I myself believe that it is a process where by one goes from having a key swing/mechanical thought or two to doing enough reps both slow mo/mirror work in addition to balls on the line to where one has gained the confidence to focus totally on visualizing the target and the FEELING and VISION of the swing necessary to propel the ball there.

I do not know a Player(Plus Am or Pro) who has swing thoughts in their head as they address a ball on a course in a competitive situation.

And yea, I'm aware that my GOAT, Jack, stated that he could have up to FIVE swing thoughts in his head at once standing over a ball. Bear in mind that he also said to a roomful of reporters that he had NEVER missed a putt of 5' or closer with either the lead or the tournament on the line on Sunday, when one of those present tried to remind him of that exact very thing happening only only two Sundays before, and obviously it was on tape.

Jack politely though firmly didn't give an inch in keeping up his denial. That's how Jack's mind worked and I know for a fact that he believed that.

THAT is why he achieved what he did.

Anyhoo, he doesn't count, lol.

Have a great week Gals & Gents :)

All the Best,
RP

Jack believed he didn't miss a putt, because he was a spot putter, he only worried about hitting the spot in front of his ball he was aiming for, and he never missed it.  That's why he believed he never missed a putt, because he handled all he could control and the rest was up to other things.  But that's beside the point.  
Good evening Scott, thanks for dropping in :)

Actually, regarding Jack, he never mentioned being a "spot" putter when I asked him about this and what his thoughts regarding a missed putt or missed shot, though I am very familiar with both his putting PSR and routine along with his full swing PSR and routine. With no hesitation he said that he didn't miss putts and he didn't miss shots and if a putt didn't go in the hole or on target or a shot didn't go where he was aiming, it did not occur.

I was waiting for a smile and all I got was a steely stare, almost a glare.

My next question was "did you not learn anything from a missed 5' putt or a blocked 4i?"

Without batting an eye he responded that he had hit and made millions of putts and shots on the course and in his mind and THOSE were the putts and shots that he learned from. His inflection rose at "THOSE," hense my capitalization of the word for emphasis. He then said that "I cannot learn a thing from a shot that did not ocur."

Its funny because his answer almost mirrored what Rotella said when asked about his response to the reporter. He said in Jack's mind that missed 5' putt never occurred.

His mind and his mental movie camera only had successful putts and shots in it.

THAT is the difference.

I have only had one other man, a Fortune 10 corporate Chair/CEO have a stare with the intensity that Jack had with his response and I've had the good fortune to encounter some very very intense individuals, professionally, athletically and socially with my HS and college athletic Mentor being Pete Wysocki(NFL LB), himself an extremely intense individual, however Jack's and this CEO's eyes were different. To the point that Maddie, sitting between us at the table later asked me if I noticed the change in his facial expression when he answered the question, and especially when he spoke of learning nothing from something that didn't ocur.

Regarding feel varying day to day, yes this is very true however there is a very respected set of Pros, both Teaching and Playing, that do not believe in stats, data and LM's as a pre-round fix-it.

They believe that a LM should be used for the fitting of clubs.

As far as Tour Bois jumping on LM's pre-round in a tourney, many are like sheep, in that they will do about anything for a perceived "edge." I'd be curious to see who does this and what the results were that day, round or tournament.

I know my Tour Bud, who has finished as high as #68 in the final Fed Ex points, only uses a LM for club fitting.

He said that that is all that he would need pre-round against the greatest Players on earth is to have a bunch of LM data running through his head and wondering WhatTF the spin number was on the ball he just air mailed into the trees right versus the pretty one he drilled earlier that day on the line(he actually used this as an example).

My second Fave All-Timer, The Haig, spoke eloquently to where one's focus should be, regardless of their generation...

"The golf shot is amazingly easy if you activate your imagination. You simply must be able to imagine what flight the ball will take before you can Play any shot well"

My Bud manages his round to round, day to day and tourney to tourney feel functions with mental preparation and almost a myopic focus(my word, not his, though based off of his description), unless he feels that his swing is off, in which case he goes back to his Teacher or brings him to a tourney.

It reminds me of another of my favorite Walter Hagen quotes....

"I would rather be clear of mind with the wrong club and decision than with an unclear mind with the right club"

The Haig, like Jack, Tiger, Hogan and Sam(Hell, he Played the Show across 6 decades) and a few others, would have been Champions in any decade or generation.

In a recent survey, 24 Tour Bois wee asked about the thoughts when they stepped into address and Zero thought of technical /mechanical swing thoughts.

It is indeed an interesting subject.

Again, Thanks for dropping in :)

All the Best,
Richard

Edited by Forged4ever, 30 November 2016 - 05:52 PM.

GHIN: Beefeater 24

6

#7 wmblake2000

wmblake2000

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,280 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33930
  • Joined: 07/07/2007
  • Location:Los Angeles
GolfWRX Likes : 3270

Posted 30 November 2016 - 01:56 AM

 Jim Waldron, on 29 November 2016 - 09:01 PM, said:

That article was based on a long phone conversation with Zak and Ben, and the first question they asked me was how my overall teaching philosophy was different than more traditional instruction. I answered "well, in a lot of ways, but one of the big ones is that I use a mind/body connection approach to teaching."

Which has  both traditional roots in other disciplines, especially Asian martial arts, and in modern Neuroscience. Mind/body connection paradigm means that your subconscious mind is the source from which all skills flow, and thus all teaching/learning has to be directed to programming into the SM the new movement patterns. It means that conscious mind golf is both not very effective and can be very discouraging and frustrating to the golfer, since he or she is trying to achieve an outcome using a tool - conscious thinking mind - that is incapable of success. We talked a bit about reaction time studies and the limits of voluntary control over high speed moving body parts.

Next question was - how do you do that SM programming?  My answer was mainly slow motion mirror work, but also the concept of Deep Insight as the foundation.

And that evolved into what the article itself is mainly about - the difference between thought and feeling, and how only feeling has the possibility of really being effective, especially in the early and mid stages of swing changes, since with feeling you have direct perception of the reality of your body motion. With thought, you  are engaging in fantasy about your body motion. Which means you are paying attention to that fantasy image or words in your head and thus NOT paying attention to your body.

It was a very interesting and enjoyable conversation about a topic that I believe is vitally important but one that gets very little attention in Internet Golfland.

Nice article, Jim.  Ironically, since I fully accept and practice what you're saying (work at getting things to a feel without much 'do this' injunction language in my head) I also really like having a good description of the detailed mechanics coupled with good visual cues.  The trick is to get from concept to good action to associated feel (so feel is real) to something one trusts while playing to something one trusts under pressure/competition - each seems to be a distinct stage of learning to me, and the power of this unconscious mind grows more prominent the more pressure the situation creates.  It seems to me 'trust' is, in part, a chunking of a bunch of feels into a simple (but maybe holistic) image of what you're intending to do.    

PS: Richard, I play to about a 7-8 index.  It'd be better if I didn't suck so much.
Ping GMax 400 10.5
Callaway Epic Hybrid 2h
Royal Collection 3, 4 h
Royal Collection 5-W
RomaRo Pro 3-W
TM P790 4-AW
Fourteen mt28v3 50, 54, 58
Cameron Futura 5W

If you see any more new irons before 2020, call the paramedics because my wife will have seriously injured me

7

#8 Palauan Hammer

Palauan Hammer

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,215 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 352867
  • Joined: 12/21/2014
  • Location:South Pacific
GolfWRX Likes : 10458

Posted 30 November 2016 - 04:51 AM

Great article!

So I was a 0.6 cap before I got into some trouble drunk one night. I've been on a "break" since then..Anyway, because I can't get to the course I had to resort to swinging in front of a mirror and I started doing slow motion swings, confirming the visual goal with the feel. My feel is very sensitive because I've made my living being a drummer most of my adult life. Drumming helped me develop body awareness. Of course I still think I can improve on this, but speaking back to slow motion swings I can say that it has developed my swing big time. I just hit my first full shots in almost 3 years the other day, I had my nephew film the shots, and all the changes I made showed up without one conscious thought about any position, I was pretty amazed considering where my swing was before the thousands of swings LOL (seriously thousands haha) And more importantly they were all high and straight shots. I'm gonna have to dive deeper into training my mind, I think that's the key to becoming a serious player, for me at least!

-TJ-

Edited by Palauan Hammer, 30 November 2016 - 04:51 AM.

OGA Member #3232

Epic SubZero 9* Kuro Kage Dual Core TiNi XT 70tx
Cally Xr Pro 14*   GD  Tour Ad MT 8tx
Titleist 714 MB 3-Pw  Nippon Modus 130x
Nike Vr Forged 52,56,60 TT Dg S400
Ping Anser 2

8

#9 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 3,195 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1919

Posted 30 November 2016 - 03:57 PM

 wmblake2000, on 30 November 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 29 November 2016 - 09:01 PM, said:

That article was based on a long phone conversation with Zak and Ben, and the first question they asked me was how my overall teaching philosophy was different than more traditional instruction. I answered "well, in a lot of ways, but one of the big ones is that I use a mind/body connection approach to teaching."

Which has  both traditional roots in other disciplines, especially Asian martial arts, and in modern Neuroscience. Mind/body connection paradigm means that your subconscious mind is the source from which all skills flow, and thus all teaching/learning has to be directed to programming into the SM the new movement patterns. It means that conscious mind golf is both not very effective and can be very discouraging and frustrating to the golfer, since he or she is trying to achieve an outcome using a tool - conscious thinking mind - that is incapable of success. We talked a bit about reaction time studies and the limits of voluntary control over high speed moving body parts.

Next question was - how do you do that SM programming?  My answer was mainly slow motion mirror work, but also the concept of Deep Insight as the foundation.

And that evolved into what the article itself is mainly about - the difference between thought and feeling, and how only feeling has the possibility of really being effective, especially in the early and mid stages of swing changes, since with feeling you have direct perception of the reality of your body motion. With thought, you  are engaging in fantasy about your body motion. Which means you are paying attention to that fantasy image or words in your head and thus NOT paying attention to your body.

It was a very interesting and enjoyable conversation about a topic that I believe is vitally important but one that gets very little attention in Internet Golfland.

Nice article, Jim.  Ironically, since I fully accept and practice what you're saying (work at getting things to a feel without much 'do this' injunction language in my head) I also really like having a good description of the detailed mechanics coupled with good visual cues.  The trick is to get from concept to good action to associated feel (so feel is real) to something one trusts while playing to something one trusts under pressure/competition - each seems to be a distinct stage of learning to me, and the power of this unconscious mind grows more prominent the more pressure the situation creates.  It seems to me 'trust' is, in part, a chunking of a bunch of feels into a simple (but maybe holistic) image of what you're intending to do.

PS: Richard, I play to about a 7-8 index.  It'd be better if I didn't suck so much.

The descriptions (auditory or verbal) and visuals act more like "convincers" that support your movement pattern, which is both learned by feel and can be triggered by a feel sense memory. Think of Feel as a very strong and thick electrical wire connecting your mind to your body. Visual as a very thin and weak wire, and auditory as an even thinner wire with lots of "shorts" in its connection.

Feel is more reliable - especially under the  gun of tournament pressure - than the other two channels precisely because, by it's very nature, the mind-brain/body connection is much stronger.

In a very real way, this debate all boils down to this: which game are you playing? Conscious mind golf or subconscious mind golf?

Conscious mind golfers believe - incorrectly - that their "swing thoughts" create their golf swing movement patterns. Subconscious mind golfers believe - correctly - that the skills they developed over time through practice have been programmed into their subconscious mind "computer" and thus can be trusted to function well without will power, effort or any kind of conscious mind command.

9

#10 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 3,195 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1919

Posted 30 November 2016 - 06:08 PM

Golfers sometimes take some convincing to understand the simple truth that your conscious thinking mind does not create new movement patterns through "thought" or "choice".  I do a few simple exercises.

One is to make a 12" square in the air with your dominant hand index finger at face level. Moving very slowly, you can "draw" the square perfectly. Speed up by a factor of at least ten, and the square shape gets way out of shape. If you did that exercise everyday though, and every third day sped up just a little, by the end of a month you could draw near perfect squares at high speed.

Second one is to look at me, while tying your shoelaces, and describing the front door of your house when you were ten years old. Your conscious mind is pre-occupied with the door story, while your body performs a learned strategy for tying your shoelace successfully, one that you learned at 3 years of age from your parents, and that you could not do successfully when first attempting it.  Next - you can look at your hands and laces while tying, but reverse the order of your steps.

Most students find it really hard to do, while "thinking" about the new way, and it takes a long time to finish. It's because tying your laces is a motor skill, and one that you can do without thought or effort - IF you have taken the time to learn it.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#11 jslane57

jslane57

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,095 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 426950
  • Joined: 05/27/2016
  • Handicap:<5
GolfWRX Likes : 2421

Posted 30 November 2016 - 06:39 PM

Heck, Jack looked like he had swing thoughts going through his mind when getting ready to hit a shot. I think of feels as being dynamic and fluid, and thoughts as being static points in a swing. I'd much prefer to play with only feels, but if something gets off track (as it can over a course of a round), it is nice to have a thought or two that gets you back on track. An example for me: If I just go off feels, I tend to start taking the club back a little too far inside. When my shots start to push or hook too much, I need the thought of my club aiming straight back from the target when the shaft is parallel to the ground on the back swing...

11

#12 Golfbeat

Golfbeat

    Swing Lessee

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,753 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 251408
  • Joined: 05/19/2013
  • Location:Florida
  • Handicap:3.9
GolfWRX Likes : 862

Posted 30 November 2016 - 07:04 PM

I would say that almost everybody will have swing thoughts after hitting a few bad shots. One bad shot can pass as an accident but when you hit a few in a row you will have to think about changing something. Or, not?

12

#13 Forged4ever

Forged4ever

    Putting is 98%+ Mental.....

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 14,361 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 183106
  • Joined: 05/26/2012
  • Location:The Burgh/Hdcp: My gene pool
GolfWRX Likes : 25209

Posted 30 November 2016 - 08:09 PM

 jslane57, on 30 November 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

Heck, Jack looked like he had swing thoughts going through his mind when getting ready to hit a shot. I think of feels as being dynamic and fluid, and thoughts as being static points in a swing. I'd much prefer to play with only feels, but if something gets off track (as it can over a course of a round), it is nice to have a thought or two that gets you back on track. An example for me: If I just go off feels, I tend to start taking the club back a little too far inside. When my shots start to push or hook too much, I need the thought of my club aiming straight back from the target when the shaft is parallel to the ground on the back swing...
Since I was 24-25yo, when I finally listened to Pete and tightened up my backswing, He told me one time to think of my right elbow being pinned to my right rib cage. So for about 5-6 months, that was my final thought after going through my PSR and before swinging.

For many, that would be the kiss of death and they'd be cuttin their swing short, coming too far inside and setting up for an ugly outcome. For me it worked perfectly.

For the next 25+ years, if I got too loose and my elbow started "flying," I just thought of it "pinned" to my right rib cage and this would be the only time that I ever took a practice swing, if you call it that. I would swing in slow mo for 2 and then 1/4 speed for 2 swings, concentrating on the target but keeping my elbow "pinned."

This usually did the trick and it is the main reason that I have never watched my swing on video. Pete and Madison have told me that my elbow is in a nice position and the outcome/shot reinforces this however I have this vision/image of my swing, including my elbow, and to see that in reality my elbow is indeed not pinned would totally screw everything up because I had basically the same vision of my swing for 25+ years and though I flattened it in 2008 following my second shoulder recon surgery, my mental image of my elbow and swing has remained unchanged.

A video would throw a major wrench into that picture, lol.

I don't know as I never thought about it but is that a swing thought?

It helped and then I forgot about it.

All the Best,
Richard

Edited by Forged4ever, 30 November 2016 - 08:10 PM.

GHIN: Beefeater 24

13

#14 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 3,195 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1919

Posted 30 November 2016 - 08:45 PM

I work with students all the time who believe that their "swing thoughts" are creating "swing realities" - and they are clearly not.

Every golf teacher knows what I am talking about. The level of sheer self-delusion in golf is probably much larger than any other area of human activity.

My very first week of teaching over 20 years ago, I had a new student, an 18 handicap, who showed up for his first lesson and I asked him to a hit a few for me. He said "Which swing do you want to see? I have my Nicklaus, my Player and my Johnny Miller swing." I was stunned and said "Really? You have three different swings?"  He says "Yep - and I can do them on command anytime".   "Show me a few Miller swings"    And I get my camera out....

"Now show me your Player swing.."  "Now let me see your Jack swing"....

I rewind the tape and show him the three swings in slow mo - all three identical, not a whit of  difference in any of them. And none of them any good either....

Or just watch any beginner golfer in a lesson. She will know exactly what her teacher wants her to do, and have a very clear "swing thought" for how her arms are supposed to move....and will be unable to do it right away and usually after many reps will still not do it properly. This is normal. It means we do not have the ability to control our bodies through thinking when they are moving at high rates of speed in short time intervals. There is no connection between that part of the brain and the body.

Golfers with high levels of athletic ability will be able to get there much faster than average athletic ability but when you ask them how they can make a body change fairly quickly they almost always will tell you that a. they dont really know they just "do it" and b. they can feel their body part in question clearly.

Once a movement pattern has started to take hold  in your subconscious, then a "thought" can indeed be the trigger that switches on that pattern. That is a whole different animal from your thinking mind causing the pattern in the first place. A Mental Swing Trigger can be trained to associate with a movement pattern and to trigger it. But that takes practice and time, ie reps.

"Swing thoughts" are mostly used in a totally different way - meaning there is no movement pattern in the SM to start with and the golfer is attempting to "make" his body do X or Y or Z as a choice. Which is why I say that swing thoughts of that kind don't work.

You can add the placebo effect to the mix as well as to why so many believe in those kind of swing thoughts.

I had a high handicap student once who absolutely believed he could control how his wrists worked right before and during impact by "thinking".  I asked him to show me a free-wheeling type Release with a ton of forearm roll, and told him to hit a big hook. He said "no problem". I said "what kind of thought will you use"" He said "I will just tell myself to 'roll like crazy'"  So he hits five big push slices in a row. I asked him what was going on ....he says "its not working right now for some reason"   I asked him how often his thought failed to work and he said about half the time....I am not making this up.

If a "thought" only works half the time, I say it is no way to play a game you love

14

#15 jslane57

jslane57

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,095 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 426950
  • Joined: 05/27/2016
  • Handicap:<5
GolfWRX Likes : 2421

Posted 30 November 2016 - 08:49 PM

 Forged4ever, on 30 November 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

 jslane57, on 30 November 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

Heck, Jack looked like he had swing thoughts going through his mind when getting ready to hit a shot. I think of feels as being dynamic and fluid, and thoughts as being static points in a swing. I'd much prefer to play with only feels, but if something gets off track (as it can over a course of a round), it is nice to have a thought or two that gets you back on track. An example for me: If I just go off feels, I tend to start taking the club back a little too far inside. When my shots start to push or hook too much, I need the thought of my club aiming straight back from the target when the shaft is parallel to the ground on the back swing...
Since I was 24-25yo, when I finally listened to Pete and tightened up my backswing, He told me one time to think of my right elbow being pinned to my right rib cage. So for about 5-6 months, that was my final thought after going through my PSR and before swinging.

For many, that would be the kiss of death and they'd be cuttin their swing short, coming too far inside and setting up for an ugly outcome. For me it worked perfectly.

For the next 25+ years, if I got too loose and my elbow started "flying," I just thought of it "pinned" to my right rib cage and this would be the only time that I ever took a practice swing, if you call it that. I would swing in slow mo for 2 and then 1/4 speed for 2 swings, concentrating on the target but keeping my elbow "pinned."

This usually did the trick and it is the main reason that I have never watched my swing on video. Pete and Madison have told me that my elbow is in a nice position and the outcome/shot reinforces this however I have this vision/image of my swing, including my elbow, and to see that in reality my elbow is indeed not pinned would totally screw everything up because I had basically the same vision of my swing for 25+ years and though I flattened it in 2008 following my second shoulder recon surgery, my mental image of my elbow and swing has remained unchanged.

A video would throw a major wrench into that picture, lol.

I don't know as I never thought about it but is that a swing thought?

It helped and then I forgot about it.

All the Best,
Richard
I'd say that sounds like a swing thought. A perfect one. You wouldn't need it all the time, but when things got loose, you knew to call on it. If you'd prefer to call it a feel, I wouldn't argue:)


15

#16 finleysg

finleysg

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,216 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 417906
  • Joined: 03/29/2016
  • Location:Minnesota
  • Handicap:2.6
GolfWRX Likes : 895

Posted 01 December 2016 - 08:41 AM

I was working on clubpath and face in the golf dome near my home yesterday evening. While taking breaks I was reading this thread.

Initially I was focused on a swing thought: knuckles of the left hand toward the ground at impact. Later I tried to internalize what Jim and Richard were saying: what does it feel like start the ball at that target and have it come back to that target? The focus changed for me from my left shoulder/arm to a more wholistic feel.

The results were significantly better, especially the quality of the strike. One of the better practice sessions I've had.
D: Callaway XR Pro - Ozik Red Tie
3W: Exotics E8 Beta - Aldila Rogue 110
3 - Ping Crossover
4H - Mizuno CLK - Speeder
Wrenches: Ping S55 - P thru 4 - Project X Rifle 6.0
Wedges: Ping Gorge 52, Ping Glide 58
Putter: OWorks 2-ball

Brand Loyalty: None

16

#17 Forged4ever

Forged4ever

    Putting is 98%+ Mental.....

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 14,361 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 183106
  • Joined: 05/26/2012
  • Location:The Burgh/Hdcp: My gene pool
GolfWRX Likes : 25209

Posted 01 December 2016 - 09:05 AM

 jslane57, on 30 November 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

 Forged4ever, on 30 November 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

 jslane57, on 30 November 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

Heck, Jack looked like he had swing thoughts going through his mind when getting ready to hit a shot. I think of feels as being dynamic and fluid, and thoughts as being static points in a swing. I'd much prefer to play with only feels, but if something gets off track (as it can over a course of a round), it is nice to have a thought or two that gets you back on track. An example for me: If I just go off feels, I tend to start taking the club back a little too far inside. When my shots start to push or hook too much, I need the thought of my club aiming straight back from the target when the shaft is parallel to the ground on the back swing...
Since I was 24-25yo, when I finally listened to Pete and tightened up my backswing, He told me one time to think of my right elbow being pinned to my right rib cage. So for about 5-6 months, that was my final thought after going through my PSR and before swinging.

For many, that would be the kiss of death and they'd be cuttin their swing short, coming too far inside and setting up for an ugly outcome. For me it worked perfectly.

For the next 25+ years, if I got too loose and my elbow started "flying," I just thought of it "pinned" to my right rib cage and this would be the only time that I ever took a practice swing, if you call it that. I would swing in slow mo for 2 and then 1/4 speed for 2 swings, concentrating on the target but keeping my elbow "pinned."

This usually did the trick and it is the main reason that I have never watched my swing on video. Pete and Madison have told me that my elbow is in a nice position and the outcome/shot reinforces this however I have this vision/image of my swing, including my elbow, and to see that in reality my elbow is indeed not pinned would totally screw everything up because I had basically the same vision of my swing for 25+ years and though I flattened it in 2008 following my second shoulder recon surgery, my mental image of my elbow and swing has remained unchanged.

A video would throw a major wrench into that picture, lol.

I don't know as I never thought about it but is that a swing thought?

It helped and then I forgot about it.

All the Best,
Richard
I'd say that sounds like a swing thought. A perfect one. You wouldn't need it all the time, but when things got loose, you knew to call on it. If you'd prefer to call it a feel, I wouldn't argue:)
Good Morning JS :)

Madison read this thread and said you're very kind, I'm a putz and it is as you said, a swing thought, lol

So this leads me to a question that I never really thought of before because when I in was in the game I hadn't even heard of the forum part of WRX, so I never talked about any of this stuff, even with Maddie.

So, when you're swinging, Playing and scoring well, you're sorta on auto-pilot, visualizing, feeling and hitting the ball where you're aiming.

Then, like most, ya hit a patch where you're going sideways, and it could be just a matter of shots or holes or it could be a number of rounds.

What I didn't realize is that I'd always had that "elbow pinned" vision that I would pull out and when I was going sideways and maybe it was mental, maybe not, but it always seemed to work.

So my question is do you JS, Jim, Scott and any of you Players have a swing thought or two that you keep in the closet and then pull out if you're not putting the ball where ya want, and then when you fix your glitch/swing, you go back to your regular PSR/visualization?

Thanks much and have a great day :)

I'm a putz, hahaha??

She's been hanging round this place too much and friggin KYMs, lmao

All the Best,
RP

Edited by Forged4ever, 01 December 2016 - 09:30 AM.

GHIN: Beefeater 24

17

#18 Silky

Silky

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 735 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 103468
  • Joined: 02/15/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 184

Posted 01 December 2016 - 12:59 PM

Great topic, great discussions which are most pertinent to learning a proper golf swing.

Jack Nicklaus and many - start the downswing from the ground up;
Hogan - the free ride down;
GG - leave your hands as they are at the top;
Jim Waldron - the lower body takes you down to p6......, etc, are all correct swing thoughts for transition.

I think I just managed to link my feel channels to those correct swing thoughts.
When done correctly, I could feel the forces, the torques, the inertia.
It is NOT EASY to learn how to allow the upper body, arms and hands to be PASSIVE, to overcome hit impulse and other fears or desire to hit the ball a long way from the top.
I hope this is correct way of learning - to program the SM.

Swing thoughts are OK if they are in concordance with feel thoughts, me think!?

18

#19 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 3,195 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1919

Posted 01 December 2016 - 03:15 PM

Lots of theory and speculation on these topics, but I think we need more light. The human mind/consciousness has a specific way of functioning that can easily be proven empirically (and the Neuroscience backs this up). This was what I was trying to convey in my article and my comments. Based on some of the responses it is clear that some folks are just not getting it.

Here it is in a nutshell, and a very simple description.

1. Consciousness  or C is the ability to be aware of something.

2. C comes in several different levels of clarity and intensity from dreaming (low level) to super clarity waking consciousness or Meta-Awareness, or the fact that you are aware of being aware. Think ice bucket dumped over your head for the kind of shocking sense of cold you would feel.

3. C has an internal/subjective or "self" direction and orientation and an external/objective  direction/orientation or the material world we all live in. You can imagine a butterfly vs you can see a real butterfly using your eyes.
Most of your internal or subjective state is created by your mind, ie is not "real" like that real butterfly in the material world.

4. Consciousness can be narrow, medium-wide or wide in it's focus - kind of like a high tech flashlight. But the kind that works best for most human tasks - and golf - is the narrow kind. C can only focus on one thing at a time. Multi-tasking is a myth.

5... C is also used in three primary Sensory Channels: feel, visual and auditory (hearing). "Thinking" is only possible in visual or auditory channels. You hear your own voice in your head "talking" or you see visual images. Feeling is NOT thinking - not even close. When you feel - there are no visual images or voices in your head.

I will post later on when I have some free time the two C exercises we use with new students that will clarify some of this basic theory.

19

#20 NoTalentLefty

NoTalentLefty

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,372 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 204451
  • Joined: 09/24/2012
  • Location:Midwest
GolfWRX Likes : 1495

Posted 01 December 2016 - 05:15 PM

Bear in mind.... LOL. Great pun.

Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

Driver Titleist 913 D3 44 inches also a Cleveland Classic 310 43.5 inches
3 and 5 Wood Ping G15
3-5 Hybrids Cobra Baffler XL
6-GW Titleist AP1s
53 degree Wedge Titleist AP1
58 degree SW Vokey SM6
Putter White Hot V LINE Fang w/round Edel Grip

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#21 NoTalentLefty

NoTalentLefty

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,372 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 204451
  • Joined: 09/24/2012
  • Location:Midwest
GolfWRX Likes : 1495

Posted 01 December 2016 - 05:28 PM

I have said in the past my only thought was hit the back inside quad on the golf ball. It took me from around a 15-16 to a 6 . Was a feel or thought? It was a thought but I must admit it left my mind after the swing started. My feel thought was wrist/hands in oil. Had that in my head before that. My hci is now 13.1 but that is due to less playing time and a very bad short game , which are related.

Now also my thoughts tend to be what's for supper.

Edited by NoTalentLefty, 01 December 2016 - 05:35 PM.

Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

Driver Titleist 913 D3 44 inches also a Cleveland Classic 310 43.5 inches
3 and 5 Wood Ping G15
3-5 Hybrids Cobra Baffler XL
6-GW Titleist AP1s
53 degree Wedge Titleist AP1
58 degree SW Vokey SM6
Putter White Hot V LINE Fang w/round Edel Grip

21

#22 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 3,195 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1919

Posted 01 December 2016 - 05:43 PM

 Forged4ever, on 01 December 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

 jslane57, on 30 November 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

 Forged4ever, on 30 November 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

 jslane57, on 30 November 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

Heck, Jack looked like he had swing thoughts going through his mind when getting ready to hit a shot. I think of feels as being dynamic and fluid, and thoughts as being static points in a swing. I'd much prefer to play with only feels, but if something gets off track (as it can over a course of a round), it is nice to have a thought or two that gets you back on track. An example for me: If I just go off feels, I tend to start taking the club back a little too far inside. When my shots start to push or hook too much, I need the thought of my club aiming straight back from the target when the shaft is parallel to the ground on the back swing...
Since I was 24-25yo, when I finally listened to Pete and tightened up my backswing, He told me one time to think of my right elbow being pinned to my right rib cage. So for about 5-6 months, that was my final thought after going through my PSR and before swinging.

For many, that would be the kiss of death and they'd be cuttin their swing short, coming too far inside and setting up for an ugly outcome. For me it worked perfectly.

For the next 25+ years, if I got too loose and my elbow started "flying," I just thought of it "pinned" to my right rib cage and this would be the only time that I ever took a practice swing, if you call it that. I would swing in slow mo for 2 and then 1/4 speed for 2 swings, concentrating on the target but keeping my elbow "pinned."

This usually did the trick and it is the main reason that I have never watched my swing on video. Pete and Madison have told me that my elbow is in a nice position and the outcome/shot reinforces this however I have this vision/image of my swing, including my elbow, and to see that in reality my elbow is indeed not pinned would totally screw everything up because I had basically the same vision of my swing for 25+ years and though I flattened it in 2008 following my second shoulder recon surgery, my mental image of my elbow and swing has remained unchanged.

A video would throw a major wrench into that picture, lol.

I don't know as I never thought about it but is that a swing thought?

It helped and then I forgot about it.

All the Best,
Richard
I'd say that sounds like a swing thought. A perfect one. You wouldn't need it all the time, but when things got loose, you knew to call on it. If you'd prefer to call it a feel, I wouldn't argue:)
Good Morning JS :)

Madison read this thread and said you're very kind, I'm a putz and it is as you said, a swing thought, lol

So this leads me to a question that I never really thought of before because when I in was in the game I hadn't even heard of the forum part of WRX, so I never talked about any of this stuff, even with Maddie.

So, when you're swinging, Playing and scoring well, you're sorta on auto-pilot, visualizing, feeling and hitting the ball where you're aiming.

Then, like most, ya hit a patch where you're going sideways, and it could be just a matter of shots or holes or it could be a number of rounds.

What I didn't realize is that I'd always had that "elbow pinned" vision that I would pull out and when I was going sideways and maybe it was mental, maybe not, but it always seemed to work.

So my question is do you JS, Jim, Scott and any of you Players have a swing thought or two that you keep in the closet and then pull out if you're not putting the ball where ya want, and then when you fix your glitch/swing, you go back to your regular PSR/visualization?

Thanks much and have a great day :)

I'm a putz, hahaha??

She's been hanging round this place too much and friggin KYMs, lmao

All the Best,
RP

R, only you can know for sure, but sounds like your sequence was: visual image of your elbow tucked, followed by a feel for that as you did the slow mo reps. After that - could have been a feel memory or a visual image that triggered the actual right elbow move.

I like the fact that you used it as a "reminder" to fix the swing issue, and then chose to "forget it"...meaning return to SM controlled golf swing.  Very smart!

22

#23 ferrispgm

ferrispgm

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,812 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 925
  • Joined: 05/25/2005
  • Location:Scottsdale, AZ
  • Handicap:0
GolfWRX Likes : 641

Posted 01 December 2016 - 05:56 PM

I can personally attest that whenever I have been playing well for a stretch of a few holes I never had a swing thought....I've had a few times where I've birdied 4 holes in a row and wasn't thinking about anything besides getting the ball to the target and relying solely on my subconscious to tell my body what to do...It's only when I'm not swinging well or working on something where having a swing thought has benefitted me, but then I try to keep it as simple as possible.   This past March, I had the best ball-striking 9 holes in my life....for the whole front 9, I didn't hit a ball outside of 25 feet....including the par 5s....had 5 putts inside of 10 feet for birdie...granted I missed everything lol, but on the approach shots I was only focused on the shot I wanted to hit and how I needed to set up to the ball to hit the shot...the actual swing was automatic and I relied on my several months of prior swing work to show through and it did....the problem is on 11 or 12 I made 1 bad swing and then proceeded to go down hill as I kept trying to fix the 1 bad shot I hit.
Driver: Callaway Epic 9* w/ Graphite Design Tour AD M9003
FWY:  Taylormade Rocketballz Tp 14.5*
Hybrid:  Adams Idea Pro 18*
Irons: Srixon Z765 3-5 iron, z965 6-PW, Project X
54*: Titleist SM6 S grind black finish
58*: Cleveland CG14 1 dot
Putter: Taylormade Daytona Rossa with agsi.

23

#24 ferrispgm

ferrispgm

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,812 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 925
  • Joined: 05/25/2005
  • Location:Scottsdale, AZ
  • Handicap:0
GolfWRX Likes : 641

Posted 01 December 2016 - 05:59 PM

I also want to add how many times I hear people on the range warming up say, "boy I wish I hit it this good on the course, better quit now while ahead, etc..."  Then they get to the course and hit it poorly....I can almost bet my life savings that they are not thinking about anything on the range and just swinging then that all changes when on the course and they try to steer it and guide the ball and subsequently think about every tip they have heard trying to get back on track....
Driver: Callaway Epic 9* w/ Graphite Design Tour AD M9003
FWY:  Taylormade Rocketballz Tp 14.5*
Hybrid:  Adams Idea Pro 18*
Irons: Srixon Z765 3-5 iron, z965 6-PW, Project X
54*: Titleist SM6 S grind black finish
58*: Cleveland CG14 1 dot
Putter: Taylormade Daytona Rossa with agsi.

24

#25 MadGolfer76

MadGolfer76

    Admiration is the state furthest from understanding.

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,146 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89700
  • Joined: 07/26/2009
  • Location:Maine
GolfWRX Likes : 10376

Posted 01 December 2016 - 06:00 PM

Eh...

Swing thoughts...no swing thoughts. Both fine choices.

Mizuno ST-180 10.5/Mitsubishi Tensei Blue 60s
Mizuno JPX 900 15/Fujikura Speeder 661s
Mizuno Mp-54 3-Pw/Dynamic Gold s300
Mizuno T7 50, 54, 58/Dynamic Gold s300
Scotty Cameron Futura X7
Srixon Z-Star

WITB

25

#26 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 3,195 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1919

Posted 01 December 2016 - 08:02 PM

You have three tools you use to learn and play good golf. In order of importance: your mind - both conscious awareness and the subconscious that can be programmed with skills, your body, and the club.

Knowing how your mind functions can save you a lot of time, money, energy and frustration.

Karate - no "side kick thoughts".

Baseball - no "rotate the torso thoughts".

Boxing - no "mechanics of uppercut thoughts".

Swimming - no "arm stroke thoughts".

Basketball - no "jump shot thoughts".

I participated actively in all five  of those sports and taught two of them professionally.

One of the points I am trying to make is that most mid to high handicap golfers are using "swing thoughts" as a SUBSTITUTE for a "swing reality" - meaning they have not actually learned a golf swing to at least a "semi" subconscious mind created athletic motion.

For an advanced golfer or a mid cap with high athletic talent, a visual image or a word thought can indeed trigger an effective swing motion. BIG difference between a swing trigger and an actual swing.

Using a trigger when you don't actually have a learned golf swing skill in the first place would be akin to using the key in your car's ignition to start your car - except the car has no motor.

It's one of the main reasons why swing thoughts are so notoriously unreliable.

Now for learning golf swing - as opposed to playing golf - the real problem with visual and auditory swing thoughts, when used at normal swing speeds, is 1. no human conscious mind has the ability to control the fast moving body parts with precision and (which is precisely why I only teach learning new movement patterns at slow motion speed where you do have that kind of control) 2. when you use visual or auditory channel, you have no idea what your body is actually doing. Only Feel Channel has the potential to provide some degree of objective feedback since in Feel, there is no abstract symbol like a visual image or a word, that is blocking your awareness for what the body is doing.

Symbols are not the same thing as the reality they point to.

Waking up to the reality of how your body is moving is the essential starting point for learning a good golf swing.

26

#27 Golfbeat

Golfbeat

    Swing Lessee

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,753 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 251408
  • Joined: 05/19/2013
  • Location:Florida
  • Handicap:3.9
GolfWRX Likes : 862

Posted 01 December 2016 - 08:36 PM

Jim, I see on our range many people who practice their back swing and down swing to impact in slow motion but hardly anyone practicing a full follow though in slow motion. This also seems to be much more difficult, as least if you try to have a finish like Adam Scott. Would you say that mid to low hcp players could improve much more if they spend more time practicing the follow through in slow motion?

27

#28 BenHoganSlam1953

BenHoganSlam1953

    Professional Hacker

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,929 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 225599
  • Joined: 01/30/2013
  • Location:Quebec
  • Handicap:12.5
GolfWRX Likes : 680

Posted 01 December 2016 - 09:16 PM

 Silky, on 01 December 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

Great topic, great discussions which are most pertinent to learning a proper golf swing.

Jack Nicklaus and many - start the downswing from the ground up;
Hogan - the free ride down;
GG - leave your hands as they are at the top;
Jim Waldron - the lower body takes you down to p6......, etc, are all correct swing thoughts for transition.

I think I just managed to link my feel channels to those correct swing thoughts.
When done correctly, I could feel the forces, the torques, the inertia.
It is NOT EASY to learn how to allow the upper body, arms and hands to be PASSIVE, to overcome hit impulse and other fears or desire to hit the ball a long way from the top.
I hope this is correct way of learning - to program the SM.

Swing thoughts are OK if they are in concordance with feel thoughts, me think!?

Now ain't that the truth!
J40 445 (9.5)
X2 Hot Pro (15/19)
X Hot Pro (20), CLK FLi-Hi (23/26)
MP-53 6i to PW, MP-T5 (52/58)
Ping Anser 3

28

#29 BenHoganSlam1953

BenHoganSlam1953

    Professional Hacker

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,929 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 225599
  • Joined: 01/30/2013
  • Location:Quebec
  • Handicap:12.5
GolfWRX Likes : 680

Posted 01 December 2016 - 09:19 PM

 Golfbeat, on 01 December 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

Jim, I see on our range many people who practice their back swing and down swing to impact in slow motion but hardly anyone practicing a full follow though in slow motion. This also seems to be much more difficult, as least if you try to have a finish like Adam Scott. Would you say that mid to low hcp players could improve much more if they spend more time practicing the follow through in slow motion?

It wasn't until I started to pay attention to my follow-through that I was able to glue what comes before and also understand why certain things were working better for me.
J40 445 (9.5)
X2 Hot Pro (15/19)
X Hot Pro (20), CLK FLi-Hi (23/26)
MP-53 6i to PW, MP-T5 (52/58)
Ping Anser 3

29

#30 ofortuna

ofortuna

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 427 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 378320
  • Joined: 05/30/2015
  • Location:Los Angeles
  • Handicap:13
GolfWRX Likes : 132

Posted 01 December 2016 - 10:07 PM

Following with interest.

Looking forward to learning more about the difference between "feeling" a move vs visualizing it.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors