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Pulling the Butt on the Downswing


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#1 dminn23

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 10:15 PM

Some people say "pull the butt of the club with left hand down the target line" in the golf swing.  Jim Hardy says two planers should try to pull the butt of the club down like they were going ot chop a board sitting at their right side.

I have found that when I pull the butt of the club, It manipulates the "inner circle" that the hands trace in the swing and takes a shortcut, rather than tracing the arc.  Also, When I pull the handle, everything slides left and my right shoulder gets trapped under.

Is the "pull the butt of the club" just bad advice period?  If you do the drill that every teacher advocates, place the arms across the chest and then turn the shoulders back and through to practice rotation, it is nearly impossible to make this movement in the golf swing by pulling the handle.  Maybe I've just done it wrong, but whatever I was doing, it was right.  

When I don't pull the handle, I can turn my shoulders like in the drill, the club is still delivered from inside - square - inside.  

Is this correct?


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#2 bam15

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 11:37 PM

I certainly wouldn't advocate it, Try and turn your lower body from the top of your backswing the lower body needs to control the upper body not reverse.

#3 leekgolf

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 11:53 PM

Swing keys have different results for different people. I know people who pull the butt of the club, it works for some, not for others. What works for me right now is compressing my right side. Sometimes it has been rolling my right foot toward the target.

The potential problem with pulling the butt is that it depends on the timing of your swivel, and the plane of your downswing. If you are under the plane (flat) it can lead to an open clubface and pushes or push slices. The answer is "it depends". Also remember, Hardy has never met a student who HE didn't think should adopt his "one plane swing".  I know he has helped a number of people, I just think there are better and more straightforward instructors out there.

#4 hayam

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 07:14 AM

To me, there is no other better way to lag


Just need to learn how to square the club head.

#5 Tanner25

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 08:24 AM

one thought one move advocates this. I posted the link on google video. just checked and it's
gone. basically, it's keep the butt end of the club at the ball, then target line to stay on plane then pull the butt end of the club to the ball on the downswing. even though it's an upper move the argument is the lower will go first in response to this move on the ds. I tried it, no results. But, I'm very impatient. Might be worth trying for a few rounds.


#6 gmoney_69

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 07:13 PM

Hayam nailed it.  The butt of the club has to be dragged downplane.  But, its not done by pulling it with the hands first.  The pivot starts from the ground up.  Weight gets shifted to the left foot,  hips pull the shoulders, shoulders pull the arms, arms pull the hands.  Then, the hands drag the butt of the club downplane, creating clubhead lag.  The body pulls the hands, but the hands have to know where the club needs to go.  They have to be the smart ones in the pivot process and not let the body bully them around.

Also, it's ok it the hands take a straight line path, once they reach shoulder high, during the downswing.  The clubhead will still move in a circular orbit.  It's also ok for the hands to move in a circular path if you desire.

#7 BallSpinner

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 07:50 PM

View Postdminn23, on Feb 9 2008, 07:15 PM, said:

Pulling the Butt on the Downswing, Bad Advice?

Depends on whose butt it is.

#8 ChrisM84

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 12:13 AM

Mind in the hands.



"Learn to wallop the ball with your pivot, with your hands giving the orders" - Brian Manzella

#9 hayam

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 02:45 AM

View PostChrisM84, on Feb 11 2008, 12:13 AM, said:

Mind in the hands.



"Learn to wallop the ball with your pivot, with your hands giving the orders" - Brian Manzella


That have Ben Doyle written ALL over.

"Strike it with an Attitude"

#10 justaman5

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 08:13 AM

Another swing thought, but same idea. Keep the button on your golf glove always facing away from you.  Even on the down swing. It does the same thing.  You might have to try it to visualize it.

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#11 slicefixer

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 10:15 AM

As long as the PIVOT/Core is PULLING the butt of the club and your arms aren't behind your arse your in business........however, the PIVOT/Core also PULLS the butt of the club "low and left" which releases LAG........you simply PULL the butt "down" and don't ALLOW the Core to "pull it low and left" and your going to be inconsistent in RELEASING the lag and THAT causes all kinds of problems...the butt of the club MUST "work DOWN and AROUND"........."you create lag (which is great) but have no idea how to release it and you've got a HUGE problem"......"power with no idea how to use it"........deadly combo for hitting it a pretty long way waaaay off line....... :)

Edited by slicefixer, 11 February 2008 - 10:23 AM.


#12 kevcarter

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 10:24 AM

View Postslicefixer, on Feb 11 2008, 09:15 AM, said:

As long as the PIVOT/Core is PULLING the butt of the club and your arms aren't behind your arse your in business........however, the PIVOT/Core also PULLS the butt of the club "low and left" which releases LAG........you simply PULL the butt "down" and don't ALLOW the Core to "pull it low and left" and your going to be inconsistent in RELEASING the lag and THAT causes all kinds of problems...the butt of the club MUST "work DOWN and AROUND"........."you create lag (which is great) but have no idea how to release it and you've got a HUGE problem"......"power with no idea how to use it"........deadly combo for hitting it a pretty long way waaaay off line....... :)

SliceFixer,

I LOVE this Hogan lesson. Is this correct?



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#13 slicefixer

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 10:30 AM

View PostKevCarter, on Feb 11 2008, 11:24 AM, said:

View Postslicefixer, on Feb 11 2008, 09:15 AM, said:

As long as the PIVOT/Core is PULLING the butt of the club and your arms aren't behind your arse your in business........however, the PIVOT/Core also PULLS the butt of the club "low and left" which releases LAG........you simply PULL the butt "down" and don't ALLOW the Core to "pull it low and left" and your going to be inconsistent in RELEASING the lag and THAT causes all kinds of problems...the butt of the club MUST "work DOWN and AROUND"........."you create lag (which is great) but have no idea how to release it and you've got a HUGE problem"......"power with no idea how to use it"........deadly combo for hitting it a pretty long way waaaay off line....... :)

SliceFixer,

I LOVE this Hogan lesson. Is this correct?



Kevin


(chuckle :D )........THAT piece of footage is what got ME going in the right direction when I was "lost in golf Siberia" many years ago.......It's NOT exactly accurate as to what he did in his swing, but, the "FEEL" IS accurate........in the video he doesn't show how he released it but the visual of the transition is fantastic!  THAT video (the only "lesson" Mr. Hogan ever gave on tape for the general public as far as I know) turned my game/golfswing around 100%....... ;)

Edited by slicefixer, 11 February 2008 - 10:43 AM.


#14 kevcarter

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 10:33 AM

View Postslicefixer, on Feb 11 2008, 09:30 AM, said:

View PostKevCarter, on Feb 11 2008, 11:24 AM, said:

View Postslicefixer, on Feb 11 2008, 09:15 AM, said:

As long as the PIVOT/Core is PULLING the butt of the club and your arms aren't behind your arse your in business........however, the PIVOT/Core also PULLS the butt of the club "low and left" which releases LAG........you simply PULL the butt "down" and don't ALLOW the Core to "pull it low and left" and your going to be inconsistent in RELEASING the lag and THAT causes all kinds of problems...the butt of the club MUST "work DOWN and AROUND"........."you create lag (which is great) but have no idea how to release it and you've got a HUGE problem"......"power with no idea how to use it"........deadly combo for hitting it a pretty long way waaaay off line....... :)

SliceFixer,

I LOVE this Hogan lesson. Is this correct?



Kevin


(chuckle :D )........THAT piece of footage is what got ME going in the right direction when I was "lost in golf Siberia" many years ago.......It's NOT exactly accurate as to what he did in his swing, but, the "FEEL" IS accurate........in the video he doesn't show how he released it but the visual of the transition is fantastic!  THAT video (the only "lesson" Mr. Hogan ever gave on tape for the general public as far as I know) turned my game/golfswing around 100%....... ;)

Thanks SliceFixer.

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#15 slicefixer

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 10:43 AM

View PostKevCarter, on Feb 11 2008, 11:33 AM, said:

View Postslicefixer, on Feb 11 2008, 09:30 AM, said:

View PostKevCarter, on Feb 11 2008, 11:24 AM, said:

View Postslicefixer, on Feb 11 2008, 09:15 AM, said:

As long as the PIVOT/Core is PULLING the butt of the club and your arms aren't behind your arse your in business........however, the PIVOT/Core also PULLS the butt of the club "low and left" which releases LAG........you simply PULL the butt "down" and don't ALLOW the Core to "pull it low and left" and your going to be inconsistent in RELEASING the lag and THAT causes all kinds of problems...the butt of the club MUST "work DOWN and AROUND"........."you create lag (which is great) but have no idea how to release it and you've got a HUGE problem"......"power with no idea how to use it"........deadly combo for hitting it a pretty long way waaaay off line....... :)

SliceFixer,

I LOVE this Hogan lesson. Is this correct?



Kevin


(chuckle :D )........THAT piece of footage is what got ME going in the right direction when I was "lost in golf Siberia" many years ago.......It's NOT exactly accurate as to what he did in his swing, but, the "FEEL" IS accurate........in the video he doesn't show how he released it but the visual of the transition is fantastic!  THAT video (the only "lesson" Mr. Hogan ever gave on tape for the general public as far as I know) turned my game/golfswing around 100%....... ;)

Thanks SliceFixer.

Kevin

NO worries my friend!  MY pleasure...... ;)


#16 Tanner25

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 08:45 PM

Slice,

Wd 3/4 knock down shots produce a reasonably solid iron shot? If so , what would be it's equivalent for the big headed driver?

#17 slicefixer

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 11:28 PM

View PostCaryGolfer, on Feb 11 2008, 09:45 PM, said:

Slice,

Wd 3/4 knock down shots produce a reasonably solid iron shot? If so , what would be it's equivalent for the big headed driver?

I call that shot a "chip driver" and I use to use it instead of a full 3 wood off of the tee (I call it a "3 finger shot" with an iron and that's what it's ccommonly called in pro golf)........VERY effective shot as it produced, for me, a shot that carried 230 - 240 either dead straight or a SLIGHT cut, but, it was NOT going left ......it was also MUCH easier to produce than a fullish 3 wood.....a LOT more accurate.......Now that Tiger has his golf swing going in the right direction you see him using a similar shot a lot with his 3 wood and 5 wood........VERY effective......you also see him hitting a LOT more "3 fingered irons"......when you do it correctly you hit nothing but frozen ropes......GREAT feeling......one more club and "3 finger" it in there... ;)..

Edited by slicefixer, 12 February 2008 - 01:28 AM.


#18 stevieheong

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:01 AM

I tried this technique a while back after reading it from a golf magazine and sent my scores sky high, like balooning from mid 80s to over 100s. I think it all depends on individual but if you're a high handicaper like me, at 15-16, I don't think its a good idea, at least from my perspective.

I think the downswing should be started from the top by the hips, and the turning of it.  Starting the downswing with the pull might promote an early hit (as opposed to lag, which is what we are after). I'm not a pro, but someone mentioned to me that when he started his downswing with his hips, he did feel a 'pull' on his left arm. But his hips was already rotating properly, and it was his hips that started the swing.

As for lag; I don't try to hold out the club for a late hit; I just set my wrist early, and move my hips laterally on the downswing and hopefully my swing will work itself out from there. So far, I've gotten back my game down to mid 80s again so I guess it works a little.

#19 slicefixer

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 12:56 PM

View Poststevieheong, on Feb 12 2008, 07:01 AM, said:

I tried this technique a while back after reading it from a golf magazine and sent my scores sky high, like balooning from mid 80s to over 100s. I think it all depends on individual but if you're a high handicaper like me, at 15-16, I don't think its a good idea, at least from my perspective.

I think the downswing should be started from the top by the hips, and the turning of it.  Starting the downswing with the pull might promote an early hit (as opposed to lag, which is what we are after). I'm not a pro, but someone mentioned to me that when he started his downswing with his hips, he did feel a 'pull' on his left arm. But his hips was already rotating properly, and it was his hips that started the swing.

As for lag; I don't try to hold out the club for a late hit; I just set my wrist early, and move my hips laterally on the downswing and hopefully my swing will work itself out from there. So far, I've gotten back my game down to mid 80s again so I guess it works a little.


It didn't work for you, more than likely anyway, because you did it with the ARMS and that's not correct........you don't PULL the butt with the arms the butt is PULLED by the correct use of the LEFT side and that can only be done IF the LEFT side is stretched properly in the backswing.......which is greatly dependant upon SETTING UP correctly, etc.

#20 leekgolf

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 05:20 PM

View Poststevieheong, on Feb 12 2008, 06:01 AM, said:

I tried this technique a while back after reading it from a golf magazine and sent my scores sky high, like balooning from mid 80s to over 100s. I think it all depends on individual but if you're a high handicaper like me, at 15-16, I don't think its a good idea, at least from my perspective.

I think the downswing should be started from the top by the hips, and the turning of it.  Starting the downswing with the pull might promote an early hit (as opposed to lag, which is what we are after). I'm not a pro, but someone mentioned to me that when he started his downswing with his hips, he did feel a 'pull' on his left arm. But his hips was already rotating properly, and it was his hips that started the swing.

As for lag; I don't try to hold out the club for a late hit; I just set my wrist early, and move my hips laterally on the downswing and hopefully my swing will work itself out from there. So far, I've gotten back my game down to mid 80s again so I guess it works a little.


No question it didn't work. If you TRY to pull the butt with your arms, bad things can happen. If you use what TGM guys call "power accumulator #4", you will make great swings. Bottom line, the pivot (turn) starting with the lower body pulls the arms, with the left arm riding on the chest a little bit (acc. #4), then at "release" the arms come off of the chest and through the ball. The feeling is one of pulling, but pulling by the core muscles, not the arms.

Honestly, if you can learn to do that, coupled with a flat left wrist, you won't be a 15 anymore.


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#21 Tanner25

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:05 PM

Thx, Slice

#22 slicefixer

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:14 PM

View Postleekgolf, on Feb 12 2008, 06:20 PM, said:

View Poststevieheong, on Feb 12 2008, 06:01 AM, said:

I tried this technique a while back after reading it from a golf magazine and sent my scores sky high, like balooning from mid 80s to over 100s. I think it all depends on individual but if you're a high handicaper like me, at 15-16, I don't think its a good idea, at least from my perspective.

I think the downswing should be started from the top by the hips, and the turning of it.  Starting the downswing with the pull might promote an early hit (as opposed to lag, which is what we are after). I'm not a pro, but someone mentioned to me that when he started his downswing with his hips, he did feel a 'pull' on his left arm. But his hips was already rotating properly, and it was his hips that started the swing.

As for lag; I don't try to hold out the club for a late hit; I just set my wrist early, and move my hips laterally on the downswing and hopefully my swing will work itself out from there. So far, I've gotten back my game down to mid 80s again so I guess it works a little.


No question it didn't work. If you TRY to pull the butt with your arms, bad things can happen. If you use what TGM guys call "power accumulator #4", you will make great swings. Bottom line, the pivot (turn) starting with the lower body pulls the arms, with the left arm riding on the chest a little bit (acc. #4), then at "release" the arms come off of the chest and through the ball. The feeling is one of pulling, but pulling by the core muscles, not the arms.

Honestly, if you can learn to do that, coupled with a flat left wrist, you won't be a 15 anymore.


Yep 100% Leek.........EXCEPT the arms don't have to leave the chest until WELL after impact........WELL after.........

Edited by slicefixer, 12 February 2008 - 06:18 PM.


#23 Tanner25

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:41 PM

For a high handicapper, wdn't it make more sense to say - envision you are coming out of the woods and you need to hit a 3/4 back and knock down shot through? (sometimes those are my best shots, But I end up hitting it too high because it is such a solid shot, golf's crazy - aim low and it goes high)

Thinking of thoughts such as hips go first, feel the elastic stretch of your core pulling your arms through etc - seems way to hard to execute for a high handicapper.

#24 slicefixer

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 07:48 PM

View PostCaryGolfer, on Feb 12 2008, 07:41 PM, said:

For a high handicapper, wdn't it make more sense to say - envision you are coming out of the woods and you need to hit a 3/4 back and knock down shot through? (sometimes those are my best shots, But I end up hitting it too high because it is such a solid shot, golf's crazy - aim low and it goes high)

Thinking of thoughts such as hips go first, feel the elastic stretch of your core pulling your arms through etc - seems way to hard to execute for a high handicapper.


EXACTLY.........I use a an old extension cord that burned up (long story....hehehe) and I stretch it between 2 shafts that I've planted into the ground about 10' or so in front of the player.......the extension cord is about 3' off of the ground.........I then tell them to "trap/compress it and hit it UNDER the cord"........rarely can they do it as the ball just won't stay down that long, but, when they create the impact conditions that are necessary to trap it down low they FEEL what I'm always preaching.........doesn't matter whether the ball goes under the cord or not....... ;)

Edited by slicefixer, 12 February 2008 - 07:49 PM.


#25 ej002

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 08:23 PM

So to "hit it under the cord" what is the feeling your are trying to accomplish, that the clubhead has to come out low and left (right for me)?

If that is what you are trying to accomlish, it sounds like a hockey stick follow through.


#26 stevieheong

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:04 PM

thanks guys, good advice all round. It's a good visualisation of a good swing! Hope to play below 80 by mid year!

#27 slicefixer

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:22 PM

View Postej002, on Feb 12 2008, 09:23 PM, said:

So to "hit it under the cord" what is the feeling your are trying to accomplish, that the clubhead has to come out low and left (right for me)?

If that is what you are trying to accomlish, it sounds like a hockey stick follow through.

I use a hockey stick with the impact bag as a drill/example...........I must admit though, I'm NOT all that well versed on the appropriate way of using a hockey stick on ICE.... ;)

#28 provx

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:36 PM

on this knock down shot. ball is back in the stance, shorter backswing, and a low follow through, and your kinda holding off the release? is this what everyone is talking about and is there more to this shot than what i described.

also is it called 3 finger shot because you are using pressure in the last 3 fingers of the left hand?

Edited by provx, 12 February 2008 - 09:50 PM.


#29 slicefixer

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 11:04 PM

View Postprovx, on Feb 12 2008, 10:36 PM, said:

on this knock down shot. ball is back in the stance, shorter backswing, and a low follow through, and your kinda holding off the release? is this what everyone is talking about and is there more to this shot than what i described.

also is it called 3 finger shot because you are using pressure in the last 3 fingers of the left hand?


Well, sort of........it would definitely FEEL like a punch or knockdown at impact IF the player is accustomed to the "toe passing the heel in the impact zone"........but, MANY times when a player is trying to "knock the ball down" they will move laterally "out ahead of it" to compress the ball and deloft the clubhead........that's a bit different than simply allowing the clubface to square up as the CORE rotates/unwinds......... ;)

#30 provx

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 11:41 PM

View Postslicefixer, on Feb 13 2008, 12:04 AM, said:

View Postprovx, on Feb 12 2008, 10:36 PM, said:

on this knock down shot. ball is back in the stance, shorter backswing, and a low follow through, and your kinda holding off the release? is this what everyone is talking about and is there more to this shot than what i described.

also is it called 3 finger shot because you are using pressure in the last 3 fingers of the left hand?


Well, sort of........it would definitely FEEL like a punch or knockdown at impact IF the player is accustomed to the "toe passing the heel in the impact zone"........but, MANY times when a player is trying to "knock the ball down" they will move laterally "out ahead of it" to compress the ball and deloft the clubhead........that's a bit different than simply allowing the clubface to square up as the CORE rotates/unwinds......... ;)


you just described me, i always get out in front and the ball starts right and goes right. i really need to work on that 9 to 3 drill you speak of, i am just having a hard time envisioning it. i know how to swing 9 to 3 with my swing, i just don't know how to do it core driven with a non handsy release.


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