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Fitting Tall Golfers With NO Chart or Preconceived Ideas!


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#61 rybo

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 04:14 PM

View PostRichieHunt, on 17 November 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

First, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your thought and effort.  As somebody that is 6’4” tall, I can perfectly agree with you that most of the irons in particular I feel like I’m hunching well over.  Put an 8-iron in my hand and I’m not particularly looking forward the shot.  So I’m really hoping that some of my skepticism is proven wrong…hell, just for the amount of effort and thought you put in alone makes me want you to be correct.

And that being said, my gut tells me you’re onto something.

My concerns are the following:
  • The MOI of the club
  • The overall weight balance/distribution of the club
  • Length and its impact on distance, particularly yardage gapping and directional control
I’m a big believer in fitting to MOI.  Not only has it been very beneficial to me but I have fitted MOI for roughly 100 different golfers, tested diligently against the placebo effect and really believe it works.  The issue is that you’re likely to find clubs that are way too hefty.  My experience with fitting for MOI is that too heavy with short clubs and wedges usually means fat shots and with longer clubs it usually means thin shots.

Of course, you could get very light shafts and hopefully find a bend profile of the shaft that fits your swing.  But then the club becomes to head heavy and you’re likely to hit high launching and spinny shots.

I also have noticed how easy and accurately it is to hit Wishon’s Sterling Single Length 5-iron and 6-iron which are built to an 8-iron length.  Perhaps it is the club head design, but it feels like it is hard to curve your shot with those shorter clubs.  And conversely, if I had very long shafted irons, I think that the curvature would likely be too great.

My initial impressions is that we may be overemphasizing what ‘good posture’ is.  To me, there is a lack of real scientific study on what good posture is.  We see a lot of the all time great ballstrikers with the shoulders rolled/hunched over.  Jack Nicklaus is a good example:

Posted Image

But at the same time, chiropractors will tell you that the rolled shoulders is not a healthy prospect.  So the question is if the shoulders should be rolled as seen by players like Nicklaus or perhaps there is a better way to setup to the ball?

I think this also begs the question if we have head weights and shaft weights correct to begin with.  Perhaps we should be fitting for length first as  you prescribed and then have clubs designed, not only from a lie angle perspective, but from a weight perspective…based on the longer length clubs.

RH

let me start with what I think is the very obvious one.  In the picture of Jack's setup, his chin is in the middle of his hands.  Find me a tall player with short clubs who can attain this position, its nearly impossible.  He is also not bent very much at the waist.  This is the setup us tall people want, but can't attain unless we have longer clubs.

I do not have a MOI machine, its the one machine I don't own.  Honestly I never got all that caught up in it.  Still adding weight anywhere along a club increases MOI.  So using a heavier grip and a bit lighter shaft and normal heads I would suspect these longer clubs would have quite similar MOI's to shorter clubs.

Again using lighter shafts and a bit heavier grips seems to make the overall balance of the club work.  I am finding 95 grams to be something of a sweet spot for myself.  A little bit heavier and I definitely notice it. The gentleman in the pictures loved a 38"/66* wedge that had no weight removed from a 50* loft head and a 95 grams shaft. It only had a midsize grip too. He loved the bit heavier head weight feel of it, while I thought it was a bit of a sledgehammer.  So things like how a club feels as always are going to be very subjective to the individual.

My distances with the clubs have been within a few yards of what they were.  Interestingly with the lob wedge I lost 5 yards going longer, the rest of the clubs have been maybe 3 or 4 yards longer. I am pulling the same clubs for the same distances as before.  But what needs to be understood is what the golfer does with a club that is too short.  The club head comes into impact toe down.  After a few hits of seeing the ball go right (right handed golfer) they consciously or subconsciously start closing the face more.  So now they have a club at impact that is toe down and a bit closed.   Well a closed clubface is delofted.  So that 46* pitching wedge now becomes 44* or so but this is just to get the ball on the right line.  Give them a proper length club and the club can now use it's loft properly.  Then the supposed fix for this is making it more upright, which really is only making the situation worst since it will effectively make the club play shorter..  They have a club that is already too short, and bending a club upright makes the distance between the center of the club face and the end of the handle closer.   The correct fix to all of this craziness is to simply provide the tall player with a club of proper length for their body proportions.


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#62 rybo

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 04:25 PM

View Post03SMURF, on 17 November 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

With shoes on, I'm 6'3", 39" WTF and 62-62.5" shoulder to floor. My current set was fit to me at +0.5" and 4* up. Anything below 6 iron my common miss is on the toe and often thin. Even my solid shots favor the toe side some. This winter I'm thinking about building some Maltby irons and wedges to experiment with much longer lengths and try to maintain std lie angles. Only thing that worries me is shaft flex. If I hardstep X100's once or maybe even twice I would probably be ok.

Your contact towards the toe side is screaming for longer lengths.  This may be the number indicator for needing longer lengths.  Don't try to sneak up on it.  Give yourself too much and work down from there.  You may be surprised.

DG X100's are going to be quite heavy.  Attempting to use shaft weights I was used to is where I went wrong for so long.

39" WTF is quite high, this is why the low limit length test is so critical.  It can accommodate all of your body proportions and be done in about 15 seconds.

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#63 baudi

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 04:30 PM

Very interesting topic. I am a true believer of a balanced club (= the giant advantage of speed matched MOI set) but what I do not understand are the OEMs and component manufacturers are extremely conservative when it comes to the specs of their heads.

There is no official standard but it is strange that it is still pretty tough to find lighter weight heads on the market to match longer clubs. I know Mizuno uses lighter heads as well as Titleist for over length clubs . For MOI matching this leads to much better results since the full shaft is delivered at impact. I am not a believer in a lighter shaft as the solution.  
Even worse is that only a few come with external weight plugs. (like Ping or Pxg (glued :swoon: ). Best option came from Geotech but is no longer available.

Edited by baudi, 17 November 2016 - 04:42 PM.


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#64 scottaz

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 05:01 PM

I use x100's. They may feel like sledgehammers for some but work well for me. I'm around d6-7. The wedges are a little heavier.

The real key for anyone going down this road is finding a really great club maker to get the weight right for you. It can be done. He told me he could get me lighter if I needed it but no need yet. May want to when I get a little older.

Edited by scottaz, 17 November 2016 - 05:04 PM.

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#65 Golfrnut

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 05:37 PM

View Postrybo, on 17 November 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

Lie angle changes do not change length.  This is a fact.  A club will measure the same length whether bent from 0* to 90*.

Going more upright will only change hand height but this will also in turn cause swing plane to be more steep.

We do not measure straight up and down when at play, so you are trying to mix two different methods of measurements.  The length and lie compliment each other to create the right position at address and through the swing.

But, if you want to also get technical, in the method that many measure clubs...lie angle changes measured length as well, so your assumption is wrong.  Some places assume it's sitting on a flat surface and measuring up the shaft.  Many do not do it this way, and measure using a fixture/club ruler that measures using a set angle based on 60* I think?  Lie angle changes will certainly make differences there.  So it depends on how you want to look at "what the club length is".  Like many things, there is no standard.

As far as the lie angle controlling swing plane, this IS NOT a fact, so please do not try to present it as such.  

Quote

Now the tall individual who is almost for sure starting with a club that is too short, hand height changes are an illusion for length change.  Length does not change effective lie angle for those starting with clubs that are too short.  A club must be a proper length first for any change in lie angle to be effective.

This is not necessarily the case, so do not try to present that as a fact.

As for an illusion?  Based on what?  Geometry is an illusion?

http://blog.hirekogo...b-interrelated/



Quote

If these much shorter LPGA women can handle longer drivers I'm pretty sure taller players can. Maybe the worst argument ever.  And the point I believe you are missing is the extra length is easier to hit since it allows the head to be in the proper orientation at impact.  

Funny that you say it's the worst argument, considering there are at least 100 threads in this very forum that talk about consistency gains and ball speed INCREASES when going to a shorter length driver.  Not to mention launch monitor results and the other people that actually fit people at a high level advocating for the exact same thing.  Consistent contact is far and away the BIGGEST problem people have, and you can see it in the monitor results that they post on here.  It's not spin problems, or anything else, it's making consistent contact.  And 99% of them are misdiagnosing the root cause, so I know for a fact that the majority of people that aren't making proper contact do know that they aren't, because they are trying to fix 100 other things that aren't the issue.  For every 100 posts on here that have monitor results, about 5% actually have good contact numbers that are useful.  The number that can't control a driver at that length FAR outnumber those who could.

Why do you think that Titleist is now offering a shorter length offering?  I think they went to 44.5" now?  When they come out and say directly what the reasoning is behind it.

Quote

A toe down fairway wood or driver is a very real issue.  I would love to see a Trackman study on a driver that is truly too short with an upward angle of attack.  Guarantee it will be a slice!  Toe down with upward AOA produces a very open face.

Is it?  People have been playing toe high drivers for years now due to the excessive length that OEMs have cranked out and the attempt at using the lie angle to effect shot shape and counteract the biggest miss of most amateur golfers...the slice.  Guess what, they still slice.  With low lofted clubs, lie angle matters very little in terms of shot shape.

Quote

So as a tall individual I can get longer pants, bigger gloves, bigger grips, larger shirts, but I'm expected to play with clubs that are literally several inches too short.  Every other sport in existence I can get properly sized equipment for my size, just not golf......why?  It has made things easier, not harder.  I don't have to manipulate the clubs like when they were too short.

There again, I'm not going to dispute what YOU need.  But you are trying to speak in a lot of absolutes, and some things that you are presuming are factual but are not.  People are finicky creatures, associating things to a few people do not necessarily make it true for the masses.

5' 11", 71", however you want to draw that up.  But I'm not speaking in relevance to me.  I have also built quite a few clubs both over and under length for people, had them on my monitor, etc.  I'm not exactly looking at this from a blind man's perspective.


Edit:  clarified my lie vs length measurement a little better.

Edited by Golfrnut, 17 November 2016 - 07:00 PM.

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#66 rybo

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 07:41 PM

Golfrnut

I'll start with the last first then go in order.

So with you being 5' 11" you've literally never in your life had to experience clubs that were way too short for you.  Seriously, you personally have no experience with the issues tall people deal with.  You have the luxury of walking into any store and they will have clubs from putter to driver that you can use. I would love to see you hit that 31" wedge just so you had an idea what's it's like.  You can make it work but it's not right, because it doesn't fit you.  And if shorter clubs were the answer to every swing problem then everybody would be playing really short clubs.


The reference to the 0* and 90* situation was only to show extremes.  Sometimes people are a little too literal.  Regardless there is no way changing lie angle changes the length of a shaft. Take an uncut shaft, stick it in any head, measure whatever that length is and now bend it up or down.  Did this uncut shaft change length?  of course not.  Take a 35"/64* wedge and bend it to 68* now measure the length using the traditional method along the back shaft and it will still measure 35".  This is due to the fact the shaft is the hypotenuse of a right triangle, you change angle A then only side 2 changes, nothing happens to the hypotenuse.  The only way to change shaft length is by using a longer or shorter (cut) shaft

Lie angle will effect swing plane.  The more upright the club is the closer the ball moves towards the golfer.  A closer ball requires a more upright swing plane just to hit it.  Moving a ball closer for a tall golfer is a crime.  A club with a 64* lie angle has to come back to impact at 64* to be in it's proper orientation.


Big difference between physically making a shaft longer and moving the hand height up.  One literally makes the shaft longer the other is an illusion used by OEM's to make it seem like a club is longer to protect against high swing weights.  The reality is when making a club more upright the effective playing length, the distance between the center of the face and the end of the grip, only becomes shorter.  The original Ben Hogan company measured clubs from the center of the face to the end of the grip for this very reason.


Why do you think that Titleist is now offering a shorter length offering?  I think they went to 44.5" now?  When they come out and say directly what the reasoning is behind it.

Because half of the population on the planet is under 5' 9"!  A full 50% of their market is vertically challenged.  I'm very sure there is a high percentage of these people who will benefit from a shorter length driver.  But that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about the exceptionally tall golfer and their needs.  Not only are we taller but all of our body parts change at a faster rate.  



Is it?  People have been playing toe high drivers for years now due to the excessive length that OEMs have cranked out and the attempt at using the lie angle to effect shot shape and counteract the biggest miss of most amateur golfers...the slice.  Guess what, they still slice.  With low lofted clubs, lie angle matters very little in terms of shot shape.

It absolutely is for the TALL individual. Drivers just like irons are designed for the masses.  Those of us over 6' 2" don't fit the 3 standard deviations of normal size.  'Most normal golfers' are not over 6' 2" tall, don't have shoulders several inches higher and wider, have longer legs, much higher WTF lengths, etc.  Why is it so inconceivable that driver length just like iron length would need to be longer for those of us who reside in the 1% for height?  The only thing that matters is the head coming into impact in the proper orientation.  If you are over 6' 2" you are going to have a hell of a time getting the head into its proper orientation.  It will likely be a bit toe down for us. Add in an upward angle of attack with a club that is too short and it's a recipe for disaster.   It's not a bad thing just make the proper adjustments to the equipment

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#67 Golfrnut

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 08:06 PM

View Postrybo, on 17 November 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

Golfrnut

I'll start with the last first then go in order.

So with you being 5' 11" you've literally never in your life had to experience clubs that were way too short for you.  Seriously, you personally have no experience with the issues tall people deal with.  You have the luxury of walking into any store and they will have clubs from putter to driver that you can use. I would love to see you hit that 31" wedge just so you had an idea what's it's like.  You can make it work but it's not right, because it doesn't fit you.  And if shorter clubs were the answer to every swing problem then everybody would be playing really short clubs.


The reference to the 0* and 90* situation was only to show extremes.  Sometimes people are a little too literal.  Regardless there is no way changing lie angle changes the length of a shaft. Take an uncut shaft, stick it in any head, measure whatever that length is and now bend it up or down.  Did this uncut shaft change length?  of course not.  Take a 35"/64* wedge and bend it to 68* now measure the length using the traditional method along the back shaft and it will still measure 35".  This is due to the fact the shaft is the hypotenuse of a right triangle, you change angle A then only side 2 changes, nothing happens to the hypotenuse.  The only way to change shaft length is by using a longer or shorter (cut) shaft    

Lie angle will effect swing plane.  The more upright the club is the closer the ball moves towards the golfer.  A closer ball requires a more upright swing plane just to hit it.  Moving a ball closer for a tall golfer is a crime.  A club with a 64* lie angle has to come back to impact at 64* to be in it's proper orientation.


Big difference between physically making a shaft longer and moving the hand height up.  One literally makes the shaft longer the other is an illusion used by OEM's to make it seem like a club is longer to protect against high swing weights.  The reality is when making a club more upright the effective playing length, the distance between the center of the face and the end of the grip, only becomes shorter.  The original Ben Hogan company measured clubs from the center of the face to the end of the grip for this very reason.


Why do you think that Titleist is now offering a shorter length offering?  I think they went to 44.5" now?  When they come out and say directly what the reasoning is behind it.

Because half of the population on the planet is under 5' 9"!  A full 50% of their market is vertically challenged.  I'm very sure there is a high percentage of these people who will benefit from a shorter length driver.  But that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about the exceptionally tall golfer and their needs.  Not only are we taller but all of our body parts change at a faster rate.  



Is it?  People have been playing toe high drivers for years now due to the excessive length that OEMs have cranked out and the attempt at using the lie angle to effect shot shape and counteract the biggest miss of most amateur golfers...the slice.  Guess what, they still slice.  With low lofted clubs, lie angle matters very little in terms of shot shape.

It absolutely is for the TALL individual. Drivers just like irons are designed for the masses.  Those of us over 6' 2" don't fit the 3 standard deviations of normal size.  'Most normal golfers' are not over 6' 2" tall, don't have shoulders several inches higher and wider, have longer legs, much higher WTF lengths, etc.  Why is it so inconceivable that driver length just like iron length would need to be longer for those of us who reside in the 1% for height?  The only thing that matters is the head coming into impact in the proper orientation.  If you are over 6' 2" you are going to have a hell of a time getting the head into its proper orientation.  It will likely be a bit toe down for us. Add in an upward angle of attack with a club that is too short and it's a recipe for disaster.   It's not a bad thing just make the proper adjustments to the equipment


You ovbiously have some misconceptions about cause and effect in terms of club changes. Prime example, Matt Kuchar. Sub 45" and one of the flattest planes out there. He hits it pretty good, no?  Again, your fact aren't facts. You are trying to make it into fact, but it isn't.

It may very well work for you, but you can look around, the studies have been done and the results are out there and easy to duplicate....most golfers cannot handle the additional length to their benefit.  There is a point of diminishing returns.

On a side note, I would enjoy seeing an honest launch monitor report of you clubs at the extended lengths. No fudging numbers, just an honest asessment.

Edited by Golfrnut, 17 November 2016 - 08:09 PM.

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#68 TLT_Dan

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 08:35 PM

View Postrybo, on 16 November 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

Dan,

While we are going to fit people better then they currently are being fit, I have no issue with changes in hand height. I am only concerned with getting the low length limit figured correctly. After that if you wish to keep a single hand height so be it. If you wish to use some other incrementle change in hand height well that's great too. For us tall people, finding the proper length for the short clubs is absolutely critical.

I am curious how TLT could possibly account for all the variations in the human body from person to person.

A full TLT fitting rack has 16 different length series - Where a series 0 is for a very short person and series 15 which is for a very, very tall person. Each series has a 4 iron at 58 lie, a 7 at 61 lie and a PW at 64 lie - then of course the series are all different lengths going from short to tall. By starting with a WTF you get a target of 3 or 4 series to begin testing with.

The goal is to get the player standing athletic with an initial 7 iron test. When the player begins to feel athletic he himself determines if he finally is standing tall enough and feels and swings athletically. Once this stage of testing is done, the player is introduced to the 4 iron - finding no change in his address, no grip change. Then the PW is introduced and again - because of the math modelling - the player again remains very athletic with virtually no change in their address. Now the correct length / lie fit has been determined for this player.

Two players who are the same height, but have different body structures, may play a completely different series from each other. It is the combination of math modelled length's and lie's that keeps the player athletic.

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#69 rybo

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 08:51 PM

View PostGolfrnut, on 17 November 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

View Postrybo, on 17 November 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

Golfrnut

I'll start with the last first then go in order.

So with you being 5' 11" you've literally never in your life had to experience clubs that were way too short for you.  Seriously, you personally have no experience with the issues tall people deal with.  You have the luxury of walking into any store and they will have clubs from putter to driver that you can use. I would love to see you hit that 31" wedge just so you had an idea what's it's like.  You can make it work but it's not right, because it doesn't fit you.  And if shorter clubs were the answer to every swing problem then everybody would be playing really short clubs.


The reference to the 0* and 90* situation was only to show extremes.  Sometimes people are a little too literal.  Regardless there is no way changing lie angle changes the length of a shaft. Take an uncut shaft, stick it in any head, measure whatever that length is and now bend it up or down.  Did this uncut shaft change length?  of course not.  Take a 35"/64* wedge and bend it to 68* now measure the length using the traditional method along the back shaft and it will still measure 35".  This is due to the fact the shaft is the hypotenuse of a right triangle, you change angle A then only side 2 changes, nothing happens to the hypotenuse.  The only way to change shaft length is by using a longer or shorter (cut) shaft

Lie angle will effect swing plane.  The more upright the club is the closer the ball moves towards the golfer.  A closer ball requires a more upright swing plane just to hit it.  Moving a ball closer for a tall golfer is a crime.  A club with a 64* lie angle has to come back to impact at 64* to be in it's proper orientation.


Big difference between physically making a shaft longer and moving the hand height up.  One literally makes the shaft longer the other is an illusion used by OEM's to make it seem like a club is longer to protect against high swing weights.  The reality is when making a club more upright the effective playing length, the distance between the center of the face and the end of the grip, only becomes shorter.  The original Ben Hogan company measured clubs from the center of the face to the end of the grip for this very reason.


Why do you think that Titleist is now offering a shorter length offering?  I think they went to 44.5" now?  When they come out and say directly what the reasoning is behind it.

Because half of the population on the planet is under 5' 9"!  A full 50% of their market is vertically challenged.  I'm very sure there is a high percentage of these people who will benefit from a shorter length driver.  But that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about the exceptionally tall golfer and their needs.  Not only are we taller but all of our body parts change at a faster rate.  



Is it?  People have been playing toe high drivers for years now due to the excessive length that OEMs have cranked out and the attempt at using the lie angle to effect shot shape and counteract the biggest miss of most amateur golfers...the slice.  Guess what, they still slice.  With low lofted clubs, lie angle matters very little in terms of shot shape.

It absolutely is for the TALL individual. Drivers just like irons are designed for the masses.  Those of us over 6' 2" don't fit the 3 standard deviations of normal size.  'Most normal golfers' are not over 6' 2" tall, don't have shoulders several inches higher and wider, have longer legs, much higher WTF lengths, etc.  Why is it so inconceivable that driver length just like iron length would need to be longer for those of us who reside in the 1% for height?  The only thing that matters is the head coming into impact in the proper orientation.  If you are over 6' 2" you are going to have a hell of a time getting the head into its proper orientation.  It will likely be a bit toe down for us. Add in an upward angle of attack with a club that is too short and it's a recipe for disaster.   It's not a bad thing just make the proper adjustments to the equipment


You ovbiously have some misconceptions about cause and effect in terms of club changes. Prime example, Matt Kuchar. Sub 45" and one of the flattest planes out there. He hits it pretty good, no?  Again, your fact aren't facts. You are trying to make it into fact, but it isn't.

It may very well work for you, but you can look around, the studies have been done and the results are out there and easy to duplicate....most golfers cannot handle the additional length to their benefit.  There is a point of diminishing returns.

On a side note, I would enjoy seeing an honest launch monitor report of you clubs at the extended lengths. No fudging numbers, just an honest asessment.

When I get some I'll be happy to post them. What specifically would you like?

Matt Kuchar is no where near as flat as he used to be.  He totally overhauled his swing a few years ago to get away from that very flat swing.  This is when he became very consistent.

I only care about helping the 1% of the population that is over 6' 2", which again you are not. I do find it hilarious that someone who is not tall is again attempting to dictate to those of us who are very tall.  You are literally the problem with the industry. Fit in this box because that's all I know....don't go outside what the chart says.

I can guarantee you those shorter drivers Titleist, Callaway and Cobra are releasing this year are not meant for the exceptionally tall.  Honestly the OEM's are not concerned with us.

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#70 rybo

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 09:00 PM

I live about 1 mile from Tiburon, should I go over and let the women know those long drivers are too hard to control?!?!


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#71 Golfrnut

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 09:05 PM

View Postrybo, on 17 November 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

View PostGolfrnut, on 17 November 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

View Postrybo, on 17 November 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

Golfrnut

I'll start with the last first then go in order.

So with you being 5' 11" you've literally never in your life had to experience clubs that were way too short for you.  Seriously, you personally have no experience with the issues tall people deal with.  You have the luxury of walking into any store and they will have clubs from putter to driver that you can use. I would love to see you hit that 31" wedge just so you had an idea what's it's like.  You can make it work but it's not right, because it doesn't fit you.  And if shorter clubs were the answer to every swing problem then everybody would be playing really short clubs.


The reference to the 0* and 90* situation was only to show extremes.  Sometimes people are a little too literal.  Regardless there is no way changing lie angle changes the length of a shaft. Take an uncut shaft, stick it in any head, measure whatever that length is and now bend it up or down.  Did this uncut shaft change length?  of course not.  Take a 35"/64* wedge and bend it to 68* now measure the length using the traditional method along the back shaft and it will still measure 35".  This is due to the fact the shaft is the hypotenuse of a right triangle, you change angle A then only side 2 changes, nothing happens to the hypotenuse.  The only way to change shaft length is by using a longer or shorter (cut) shaft    

Lie angle will effect swing plane.  The more upright the club is the closer the ball moves towards the golfer.  A closer ball requires a more upright swing plane just to hit it.  Moving a ball closer for a tall golfer is a crime.  A club with a 64* lie angle has to come back to impact at 64* to be in it's proper orientation.


Big difference between physically making a shaft longer and moving the hand height up.  One literally makes the shaft longer the other is an illusion used by OEM's to make it seem like a club is longer to protect against high swing weights.  The reality is when making a club more upright the effective playing length, the distance between the center of the face and the end of the grip, only becomes shorter.  The original Ben Hogan company measured clubs from the center of the face to the end of the grip for this very reason.


Why do you think that Titleist is now offering a shorter length offering?  I think they went to 44.5" now?  When they come out and say directly what the reasoning is behind it.

Because half of the population on the planet is under 5' 9"!  A full 50% of their market is vertically challenged.  I'm very sure there is a high percentage of these people who will benefit from a shorter length driver.  But that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about the exceptionally tall golfer and their needs.  Not only are we taller but all of our body parts change at a faster rate.  



Is it?  People have been playing toe high drivers for years now due to the excessive length that OEMs have cranked out and the attempt at using the lie angle to effect shot shape and counteract the biggest miss of most amateur golfers...the slice.  Guess what, they still slice.  With low lofted clubs, lie angle matters very little in terms of shot shape.

It absolutely is for the TALL individual. Drivers just like irons are designed for the masses.  Those of us over 6' 2" don't fit the 3 standard deviations of normal size.  'Most normal golfers' are not over 6' 2" tall, don't have shoulders several inches higher and wider, have longer legs, much higher WTF lengths, etc.  Why is it so inconceivable that driver length just like iron length would need to be longer for those of us who reside in the 1% for height?  The only thing that matters is the head coming into impact in the proper orientation.  If you are over 6' 2" you are going to have a hell of a time getting the head into its proper orientation.  It will likely be a bit toe down for us. Add in an upward angle of attack with a club that is too short and it's a recipe for disaster.   It's not a bad thing just make the proper adjustments to the equipment


You ovbiously have some misconceptions about cause and effect in terms of club changes. Prime example, Matt Kuchar. Sub 45" and one of the flattest planes out there. He hits it pretty good, no?  Again, your fact aren't facts. You are trying to make it into fact, but it isn't.

It may very well work for you, but you can look around, the studies have been done and the results are out there and easy to duplicate....most golfers cannot handle the additional length to their benefit.  There is a point of diminishing returns.

On a side note, I would enjoy seeing an honest launch monitor report of you clubs at the extended lengths. No fudging numbers, just an honest asessment.

When I get some I'll be happy to post them. What specifically would you like?

Matt Kuchar is no where near as flat as he used to be.  He totally overhauled his swing a few years ago to get away from that very flat swing.  This is when he became very consistent.

I only care about helping the 1% of the population that is over 6' 2", which again you are not. I do find it hilarious that someone who is not tall is again attempting to dictate to those of us who are very tall.  You are literally the problem with the industry. Fit in this box because that's all I know....don't go outside what the chart says.

I can guarantee you those shorter drivers Titleist, Callaway and Cobra are releasing this year are not meant for the exceptionally tall.  Honestly the OEM's are not concerned with us.


There again, Kutcher.  Professional tour player, shorter driver, flat swing. And he's what? 6'4"?  You can't pick and choose here, and he's still flatter than a lot of people.  Again, the facts aren't facts as you say are.  You are trying to turn "you" into "us" and "we".  That math doesn't work. The same was already discussed in the other thread that's currently in the "cooler". You just refuse to accept it for what it is because it disagrees with your opinions on it. That's fine, you are entitled to do that, still doesn't make it true.

Pot call kettle? Might want to look at some of your previous posts.  You are trying to force your opinions as fact and that other know nothing about what they are talking about, literally the exact same thing as you are accusing others of doing.  I do find that to be pretty entertaining.
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#72 rybo

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 09:28 PM

In no way am I attempting to turn me into us. The fact is taller people need longer clubs. Will there be exceptions to this like kuchar....absolutely. The facts are tall people have higher shoulders and higher WTF measurements, this dictates the need for longer clubs to accommodate their proportions.  

Not sure what math you think doesn't work, but this most definitely works.

I refuse to accept it because the paradigm is incorrect. I have lived the paradigm for 35 years of golfing life. The paradigm is broke and needs to change!  Give tall golfers the length they need. Why is this such a problem for you?  It literally makes zero sense that an exceptionally tall individual would not need a longer club.

It's so frustrating that in other sports I get equipment appropriate for my size.  Cycling and skiing are my two other sports I do, and I have no issue getting appropriately sized equipment.   Golf it's like pulling teeth and I have to give up my first born. Rediculous!

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#73 forefrazier

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 09:37 PM

FWIW:

I am 6'-5" and have read through most of the other threads as well as following this one. I very much appreciate what Rybo is putting out here for us tall folks to digest. He has ideas that might work or make golf more enjoyable for us...Why is that a bad thing? Not even a little bit of feeling from me when reading his IDEAS (Who cares if they are FACTS or not) that he is trying to force anything on anyone. We can decide if we might want to try it out or not.

There of course are always going to be the few that are more engineering minded and don't want any creative change. Must do all things by the numbers and everything has to be absolutes and facts.

Really hope this doesn't turn into one for the Cooler as I quite enjoy the reading and hope to experiment with longer lengths a bit myself, especially in the shorter irons.

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#74 Golfrnut

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 09:50 PM

You just spent half your thread trying to prove to me that length and lies are an illusion in fitting...none of past though processes are worth anything to the tall golfer.  Anyone who disagrees has no understanding or idea what they are talking about. "We" are what's wrong with the industry. Too short of clubs cause upright swing planes. Anyone over 6'2" doesn't fit into the current system. Less than standard length drivers cause toe down conditions for tall people. Changing the lie angle will just make them steep. The list goes on. All this sound familiar?

I just debunked it all with one guy...one guy

My point is...your proof wasn't proof.  Height doesn't "dictate" anything in this. That would be like saying there is a standard. There isn't, never will be. There is what works and what doesn't work...and it's dependent on the idividual.
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#75 Galanga

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 09:58 PM

I appreciate Rybo's ideas and have run with them, and it has help me. I am on the low end of the tall guy problem at 6'1".  Never felt comfortable even at 1/2" over which was the standard iron fitting. Always felt I was getting in my own way during the swing.

With the irons, I went about 1.5-1.75 inches over Titleist MB standard and stuck with the MB standard lies (after messing around with various lengths, I ended up using 4.44% over standard lengths across the board). Went with lighter and stiffer shafts (88 grams irons and 50 grams in driver in X). I am either now dead on a perfect fit or within 1/2" - would have never gotten here without Rybo expressing his ideas.  I have changed my irons and my driver thus far - next are the hybrids and fairway woods (will go 80ish grams hybrids and 60ish grams for fwy woods in X).

Decided to ignore swing weight and am liking the feel of the clubs. More comfortable at setup, better rhythm, freer swing, hit center more often and probably 20 yards longer and straighter with driver and about 10 yards longer and more accurate with the irons in the early going. Took only a few buckets to get comfortable. Draws come easily now, but, can still fade it. It is working for me. I am currently a 4.8 cap. FWIW.

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#76 rybo

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 10:04 PM

ok then why are you here?  You are not tall and really have nothing to add that would help us exceptionally tall golfers.

Your Kuchar example literally proves nothing. You've debunked nothing. I fully stated there will be exceptions. He's an exception.

I've have stated numerous times in both posts that shoulder height and arm length are the measurements that need to be used for determining length. I provided a method that uses a bare shaft and a head to determine a staring length. Very simple, easy and produces a very repeatable result.  It takes every body proportion into account. Let me guess, this is no good either?!?

So what length do you think I should be using? Because apparently what I am using in no way works with what you think I should be using. The game literally became so much easier the last few weeks it's crazy. I'm sure this upsets you.


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#77 rybo

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 10:05 PM

Thank you Firefrazier and Galanga, you guys get it!

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#78 rybo

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 10:44 PM

On a lighter note, I picked up the Steelfiber i95 X's this afternoon. Unfortunately they won't be built until maybe Sunday at the earliest more likely Monday as I'm headed to Miami for the weekend.  Lots of tequila with the wife! I'll check in on the thread time permitting.

Also ordered a Recoil 95 Prototype F5 to try in another wedge.

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#79 bladehunter

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 11:34 PM

Op.  I'll say again. Wonderful thread !  I only wish it existed 2 years ago when I started  on my journey.  I finally ended up with same length Pw - lw and 5/16 between each from 9-3 iron.   I lengthened various sets gradually and each time hit the ball better.  I would quit the game if I had to go back to standard length.  I used to not be able to hit a sand wedge 80 yards but could hit a 8 iron 165 or more.  Turns out is was length.  
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#80 bladehunter

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 11:42 PM

View PostGolfrnut, on 17 November 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

View Postrybo, on 17 November 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

Golfrnut

I'll start with the last first then go in order.

So with you being 5' 11" you've literally never in your life had to experience clubs that were way too short for you.  Seriously, you personally have no experience with the issues tall people deal with.  You have the luxury of walking into any store and they will have clubs from putter to driver that you can use. I would love to see you hit that 31" wedge just so you had an idea what's it's like.  You can make it work but it's not right, because it doesn't fit you.  And if shorter clubs were the answer to every swing problem then everybody would be playing really short clubs.


The reference to the 0* and 90* situation was only to show extremes.  Sometimes people are a little too literal.  Regardless there is no way changing lie angle changes the length of a shaft. Take an uncut shaft, stick it in any head, measure whatever that length is and now bend it up or down.  Did this uncut shaft change length?  of course not.  Take a 35"/64* wedge and bend it to 68* now measure the length using the traditional method along the back shaft and it will still measure 35".  This is due to the fact the shaft is the hypotenuse of a right triangle, you change angle A then only side 2 changes, nothing happens to the hypotenuse.  The only way to change shaft length is by using a longer or shorter (cut) shaft    

Lie angle will effect swing plane.  The more upright the club is the closer the ball moves towards the golfer.  A closer ball requires a more upright swing plane just to hit it.  Moving a ball closer for a tall golfer is a crime.  A club with a 64* lie angle has to come back to impact at 64* to be in it's proper orientation.


Big difference between physically making a shaft longer and moving the hand height up.  One literally makes the shaft longer the other is an illusion used by OEM's to make it seem like a club is longer to protect against high swing weights.  The reality is when making a club more upright the effective playing length, the distance between the center of the face and the end of the grip, only becomes shorter.  The original Ben Hogan company measured clubs from the center of the face to the end of the grip for this very reason.


Why do you think that Titleist is now offering a shorter length offering?  I think they went to 44.5" now?  When they come out and say directly what the reasoning is behind it.

Because half of the population on the planet is under 5' 9"!  A full 50% of their market is vertically challenged.  I'm very sure there is a high percentage of these people who will benefit from a shorter length driver.  But that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about the exceptionally tall golfer and their needs.  Not only are we taller but all of our body parts change at a faster rate.  



Is it?  People have been playing toe high drivers for years now due to the excessive length that OEMs have cranked out and the attempt at using the lie angle to effect shot shape and counteract the biggest miss of most amateur golfers...the slice.  Guess what, they still slice.  With low lofted clubs, lie angle matters very little in terms of shot shape.

It absolutely is for the TALL individual. Drivers just like irons are designed for the masses.  Those of us over 6' 2" don't fit the 3 standard deviations of normal size.  'Most normal golfers' are not over 6' 2" tall, don't have shoulders several inches higher and wider, have longer legs, much higher WTF lengths, etc.  Why is it so inconceivable that driver length just like iron length would need to be longer for those of us who reside in the 1% for height?  The only thing that matters is the head coming into impact in the proper orientation.  If you are over 6' 2" you are going to have a hell of a time getting the head into its proper orientation.  It will likely be a bit toe down for us. Add in an upward angle of attack with a club that is too short and it's a recipe for disaster.   It's not a bad thing just make the proper adjustments to the equipment


You ovbiously have some misconceptions about cause and effect in terms of club changes. Prime example, Matt Kuchar. Sub 45" and one of the flattest planes out there. He hits it pretty good, no?  Again, your fact aren't facts. You are trying to make it into fact, but it isn't.

It may very well work for you, but you can look around, the studies have been done and the results are out there and easy to duplicate....most golfers cannot handle the additional length to their benefit.  There is a point of diminishing returns.

On a side note, I would enjoy seeing an honest launch monitor report of you clubs at the extended lengths. No fudging numbers, just an honest asessment.

I'm not sure what that would prove ?  Are you wanting to compare standard length to over length ?  If so I'm game. But I warn you it isn't a fair fight.  My iron distances and dispersion are off the charts better longer than standard.
Where are these studies published ?  I just googled " study on tall golfers using over length clubs " and got a bunch of nonsense that are just hits on key words.   Over length hurts standard height players. But tall guys should generally use a club that's to  scale.  We don't ask junior golfers to use adults clubs , nor should 6ft 4 golfers use clubs who are designed for 5ft 8 guys.  Seems like common sense to me. I only wish the light bulb went on for me sooner

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#81 Golfrnut

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 12:40 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 17 November 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

View PostGolfrnut, on 17 November 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

View Postrybo, on 17 November 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

Golfrnut

I'll start with the last first then go in order.

So with you being 5' 11" you've literally never in your life had to experience clubs that were way too short for you.  Seriously, you personally have no experience with the issues tall people deal with.  You have the luxury of walking into any store and they will have clubs from putter to driver that you can use. I would love to see you hit that 31" wedge just so you had an idea what's it's like.  You can make it work but it's not right, because it doesn't fit you.  And if shorter clubs were the answer to every swing problem then everybody would be playing really short clubs.


The reference to the 0* and 90* situation was only to show extremes.  Sometimes people are a little too literal.  Regardless there is no way changing lie angle changes the length of a shaft. Take an uncut shaft, stick it in any head, measure whatever that length is and now bend it up or down.  Did this uncut shaft change length?  of course not.  Take a 35"/64* wedge and bend it to 68* now measure the length using the traditional method along the back shaft and it will still measure 35".  This is due to the fact the shaft is the hypotenuse of a right triangle, you change angle A then only side 2 changes, nothing happens to the hypotenuse.  The only way to change shaft length is by using a longer or shorter (cut) shaft

Lie angle will effect swing plane.  The more upright the club is the closer the ball moves towards the golfer.  A closer ball requires a more upright swing plane just to hit it.  Moving a ball closer for a tall golfer is a crime.  A club with a 64* lie angle has to come back to impact at 64* to be in it's proper orientation.


Big difference between physically making a shaft longer and moving the hand height up.  One literally makes the shaft longer the other is an illusion used by OEM's to make it seem like a club is longer to protect against high swing weights.  The reality is when making a club more upright the effective playing length, the distance between the center of the face and the end of the grip, only becomes shorter.  The original Ben Hogan company measured clubs from the center of the face to the end of the grip for this very reason.


Why do you think that Titleist is now offering a shorter length offering?  I think they went to 44.5" now?  When they come out and say directly what the reasoning is behind it.

Because half of the population on the planet is under 5' 9"!  A full 50% of their market is vertically challenged.  I'm very sure there is a high percentage of these people who will benefit from a shorter length driver.  But that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about the exceptionally tall golfer and their needs.  Not only are we taller but all of our body parts change at a faster rate.  



Is it?  People have been playing toe high drivers for years now due to the excessive length that OEMs have cranked out and the attempt at using the lie angle to effect shot shape and counteract the biggest miss of most amateur golfers...the slice.  Guess what, they still slice.  With low lofted clubs, lie angle matters very little in terms of shot shape.

It absolutely is for the TALL individual. Drivers just like irons are designed for the masses.  Those of us over 6' 2" don't fit the 3 standard deviations of normal size.  'Most normal golfers' are not over 6' 2" tall, don't have shoulders several inches higher and wider, have longer legs, much higher WTF lengths, etc.  Why is it so inconceivable that driver length just like iron length would need to be longer for those of us who reside in the 1% for height?  The only thing that matters is the head coming into impact in the proper orientation.  If you are over 6' 2" you are going to have a hell of a time getting the head into its proper orientation.  It will likely be a bit toe down for us. Add in an upward angle of attack with a club that is too short and it's a recipe for disaster.   It's not a bad thing just make the proper adjustments to the equipment


You ovbiously have some misconceptions about cause and effect in terms of club changes. Prime example, Matt Kuchar. Sub 45" and one of the flattest planes out there. He hits it pretty good, no?  Again, your fact aren't facts. You are trying to make it into fact, but it isn't.

It may very well work for you, but you can look around, the studies have been done and the results are out there and easy to duplicate....most golfers cannot handle the additional length to their benefit.  There is a point of diminishing returns.

On a side note, I would enjoy seeing an honest launch monitor report of you clubs at the extended lengths. No fudging numbers, just an honest asessment.

I'm not sure what that would prove ?  Are you wanting to compare standard length to over length ?  If so I'm game. But I warn you it isn't a fair fight.  My iron distances and dispersion are off the charts better longer than standard.
Where are these studies published ?  I just googled " study on tall golfers using over length clubs " and got a bunch of nonsense that are just hits on key words.   Over length hurts standard height players. But tall guys should generally use a club that's to  scale.  We don't ask junior golfers to use adults clubs , nor should 6ft 4 golfers use clubs who are designed for 5ft 8 guys.  Seems like common sense to me. I only wish the light bulb went on for me sooner

No, I'm speaking of right length vs wrong length, or extremes.  A lot of that, although I did not get specific so my fault for not going into detail, revolves around longer length drivers/fairways.  Willing to bet quite a bit that a properly built <45" driver will outperform one at 46"+ with almost total certainty.  You don't need to get into longer lengths than that for anyone except maybe Yao Ming and Shaq.  That's exactly why I brought up Kucher as a perfect example of why it doesn't work the way that Rybo thinks it does.  He's made plenty of "assumptions" in the other thread as well that's in the cooler.  He's making a general assumption on length based on very small samples.  iTeach told him the same things, it doesn't work the way he thinks it does in his head.

Here's the issue with irons.  I'm a 100% fine with longer length short irons.  Do we not swing clubs that are longer than our 9 iron?  So why can't we make our wedges the same length as an 8 iron?  Heck, Wishon will sell you an entire set that's the same length through the set.  Cobra too!  But why exactly do we need a 3 iron that's 41" long when we swing another iron perfect fine from the same set that's 2" shorter?  Why make it harder on ourselves to make solid contact.  What's the difference here between the two lengths? Another reason why the lie angle argument makes no sense.  You already swing a club that's shorter and has a higher lie angle, what makes another iron impossible to hit at the same specs?  Nothing!  This is exactly why the single-length iron concept can work.  You don't have to have A just because of B.  Saying otherwise is pure poop.  There is a minumum, I will agree, but that doesn't mean the whole set has to be treated the same way to make it work.  People use single length, 3/8", 1/4"...it can all work.  Attempting to say that a certain iron has to fall in a certain lie angle range and has to be X long in length is just simply uninformed.  Just because an gap wedge works best and puts you in the best posture when it's at a "standard" 8 iron length, doesn't mean a 3 iron has to increase by the same amount.  No reason to say that a 3 iron with an increased lie angle will not fit someone that needs the longer short irons.  You just made it the same as your 5 iron would be!  How can that be completely wrong and not work?  But by Rybo's account, it can't be done because the swing plane goes amuck?  Make sense?

If you'll notice, I did not advocate any length at all in any of my posts, for anyone with exception of the driver.  What I did state was that there was a point of diminishing returns.  I don't care what a person't height is, you can't expect to add a ton of length to a club and expect reasonable contact for most people.  As I referenced before, just look at the posted monitor results that are all around the forum.  The driver length is wide open in terms of options vs height, it's not that specific.  A 6'5" person is not going to handle a 46" long driver any better than a 5'10" person is.  Making you taller, doesn't give you any better hand/eye coordination.  He was trying to justify needing a longer driver just due to height/wrist to floor, and it just doesn't work that way.  You have 13 other clubs that are shorter, but all the sudden your driver has to be longer or it doesn't fit?  Again, it's unjustified and makes zero sense.  You can swing a 5 iron at 40" but can use a driver that's less than 46"?  It doesn't work the way he is thinking it does.  Again, why I referenced Kuchar as a perfect example as to why that it's not the case.  We can go further down the list if one likes?  Furyk is what?  6'2".  He's sub 45".  I mean...there are more.

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If you'll also notice, I did not challenge his personal results in any way shape or form.  I made it a point to say that I wasn't.

Edited by Golfrnut, 18 November 2016 - 12:48 AM.

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#82 rybo

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 05:27 AM

View PostGolfrnut, on 18 November 2016 - 12:40 AM, said:

No, I'm speaking of right length vs wrong length, or extremes.  A lot of that, although I did not get specific so my fault for not going into detail, revolves around longer length drivers/fairways.  Willing to bet quite a bit that a properly built <45" driver will outperform one at 46"+ with almost total certainty.  You don't need to get into longer lengths than that for anyone except maybe Yao Ming and Shaq.  That's exactly why I brought up Kucher as a perfect example of why it doesn't work the way that Rybo thinks it does.  He's made plenty of "assumptions" in the other thread as well that's in the cooler.  He's making a general assumption on length based on very small samples.  iTeach told him the same things, it doesn't work the way he thinks it does in his head.

I am not making general assumptions about anything.  My goal in all of this is to properly fit the taller then average golfer.  My desire to do so is born out of the utter frustration of what I have come to understand as being improperly fit for the last 35 years; even when I was on staff by one of the OEM's.  Unfortunately for you and people like iteach this is very hard to understand as you have zero direct experience with it.  The shorter is better mantra is flawed for the exceptionally tall.  Just because a club is too long for you doesn't mean it's too long for those of us who are very tall.


View PostGolfrnut, on 18 November 2016 - 12:40 AM, said:

Here's the issue with irons.  I'm a 100% fine with longer length short irons.  Do we not swing clubs that are longer than our 9 iron?  So why can't we make our wedges the same length as an 8 iron?  Heck, Wishon will sell you an entire set that's the same length through the set.  Cobra too!  But why exactly do we need a 3 iron that's 41" long when we swing another iron perfect fine from the same set that's 2" shorter?  Why make it harder on ourselves to make solid contact.  What's the difference here between the two lengths? Another reason why the lie angle argument makes no sense.  You already swing a club that's shorter and has a higher lie angle, what makes another iron impossible to hit at the same specs?  Nothing!  This is exactly why the single-length iron concept can work.  You don't have to have A just because of B.  Saying otherwise is pure poop.  There is a minumum, I will agree, but that doesn't mean the whole set has to be treated the same way to make it work.  People use single length, 3/8", 1/4"...it can all work.  Attempting to say that a certain iron has to fall in a certain lie angle range and has to be X long in length is just simply uninformed.  Just because an gap wedge works best and puts you in the best posture when it's at a "standard" 8 iron length, doesn't mean a 3 iron has to increase by the same amount.  No reason to say that a 3 iron with an increased lie angle will not fit someone that needs the longer short irons.  You just made it the same as your 5 iron would be!  How can that be completely wrong and not work?  But by Rybo's account, it can't be done because the swing plane goes amuck?  Make sense?

I have stated numerous times if someone wishes to use smaller step increments in the irons by all means do so. Went as far as posting a link to where I had used 1/8" steps and stated I had played 3/8" steps for many years.  If someone finds a better fit with a 4 iron having a 63* lie angle and a shorter length then definitely use it.  Personally I prefer doing the high length limit test as it will determine what length you naturally stop at.

When doing the low and high length tests I clearly explained the issue with lie angles in the long irons not having the same type of consistency across the OEM's and due to this I chose to subtract 1/2* per club because this closely resembled the specs on the heads being used.  The only time I dictated a specific lie angle be used, 64*, is on the wedges due to the almost 100% use of this specification.

For me a 4 iron with a 61* lie angle produced a natural length of 40.5".  I chose to leave the lie angle where it was and go with it to see what would happen.  And interestingly it turned out to be more playable compared to any shorter 4 iron I have played before it.  Again I made no attempt to dictate the fitting, the limit fittings dictated what lengths to use.   Not sure how anyone could take issue with this.

A 41" 3 iron for those of us who are extremely tall is quite normal.  There's nothing extreme about it compared with our proportions of shoulder height and WTF.  These extended lengths are our norm.

Please don't take swing plane out of context.  Specifically in the short irons, by only changing lie angle more upright, the ball moves closer to the golfer and will require the golfer to swing on a steeper plane.  There is a huge difference between raising hand height with a length increase vs raising hand height with a lie angle adjustment.


View PostGolfrnut, on 18 November 2016 - 12:40 AM, said:

If you'll notice, I did not advocate any length at all in any of my posts, for anyone with exception of the driver.  What I did state was that there was a point of diminishing returns.  I don't care what a person't height is, you can't expect to add a ton of length to a club and expect reasonable contact for most people.  As I referenced before, just look at the posted monitor results that are all around the forum.  The driver length is wide open in terms of options vs height, it's not that specific.  A 6'5" person is not going to handle a 46" long driver any better than a 5'10" person is.  Making you taller, doesn't give you any better hand/eye coordination.  He was trying to justify needing a longer driver just due to height/wrist to floor, and it just doesn't work that way.  You have 13 other clubs that are shorter, but all the sudden your driver has to be longer or it doesn't fit?  Again, it's unjustified and makes zero sense.  You can swing a 5 iron at 40" but can use a driver that's less than 46"?  It doesn't work the way he is thinking it does.  Again, why I referenced Kuchar as a perfect example as to why that it's not the case.  We can go further down the list if one likes?  Furyk is what?  6'2".  He's sub 45".  I mean...there are more.

Tall people have a different point of diminishing returns.  Average height people use a range of lengths between 35"-45.5", exceptionally tall people use a range of lengths between 37.5"-48".  Again I do not consider this extreme, I'm 7" taller, have a WTF 4" higher and have shoulders that are 6.2" higher then the average person, it's not unreasonable to use a driver that is at most 1 1/2" longer then even the most conservative standard. Tall people are just proportionately much bigger.

And there's a good reason the majority of people who do long drive are quite tall, they absolutely can 'handle' the longer driver better.  Somebody like Sadlowski is the exception.  I would go as far to say Sadlowski is the extreme in the instance of long drive.


View PostGolfrnut, on 18 November 2016 - 12:40 AM, said:

If you'll also notice, I did not challenge his personal results in any way shape or form.  I made it a point to say that I wasn't.

Really?!?!  So the request for 'seeing an honest launch monitor report of you clubs at the extended lengths. No fudging numbers, just an honest assessment' is not challenging my personal results.  That's some funny stuff right there!

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#83 bladehunter

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 07:09 AM

View PostGolfrnut, on 18 November 2016 - 12:40 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 17 November 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

View PostGolfrnut, on 17 November 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

View Postrybo, on 17 November 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

Golfrnut

I'll start with the last first then go in order.

So with you being 5' 11" you've literally never in your life had to experience clubs that were way too short for you.  Seriously, you personally have no experience with the issues tall people deal with.  You have the luxury of walking into any store and they will have clubs from putter to driver that you can use. I would love to see you hit that 31" wedge just so you had an idea what's it's like.  You can make it work but it's not right, because it doesn't fit you.  And if shorter clubs were the answer to every swing problem then everybody would be playing really short clubs.


The reference to the 0* and 90* situation was only to show extremes.  Sometimes people are a little too literal.  Regardless there is no way changing lie angle changes the length of a shaft. Take an uncut shaft, stick it in any head, measure whatever that length is and now bend it up or down.  Did this uncut shaft change length?  of course not.  Take a 35"/64* wedge and bend it to 68* now measure the length using the traditional method along the back shaft and it will still measure 35".  This is due to the fact the shaft is the hypotenuse of a right triangle, you change angle A then only side 2 changes, nothing happens to the hypotenuse.  The only way to change shaft length is by using a longer or shorter (cut) shaft    

Lie angle will effect swing plane.  The more upright the club is the closer the ball moves towards the golfer.  A closer ball requires a more upright swing plane just to hit it.  Moving a ball closer for a tall golfer is a crime.  A club with a 64* lie angle has to come back to impact at 64* to be in it's proper orientation.


Big difference between physically making a shaft longer and moving the hand height up.  One literally makes the shaft longer the other is an illusion used by OEM's to make it seem like a club is longer to protect against high swing weights.  The reality is when making a club more upright the effective playing length, the distance between the center of the face and the end of the grip, only becomes shorter.  The original Ben Hogan company measured clubs from the center of the face to the end of the grip for this very reason.


Why do you think that Titleist is now offering a shorter length offering?  I think they went to 44.5" now?  When they come out and say directly what the reasoning is behind it.

Because half of the population on the planet is under 5' 9"!  A full 50% of their market is vertically challenged.  I'm very sure there is a high percentage of these people who will benefit from a shorter length driver.  But that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about the exceptionally tall golfer and their needs.  Not only are we taller but all of our body parts change at a faster rate.  



Is it?  People have been playing toe high drivers for years now due to the excessive length that OEMs have cranked out and the attempt at using the lie angle to effect shot shape and counteract the biggest miss of most amateur golfers...the slice.  Guess what, they still slice.  With low lofted clubs, lie angle matters very little in terms of shot shape.

It absolutely is for the TALL individual. Drivers just like irons are designed for the masses.  Those of us over 6' 2" don't fit the 3 standard deviations of normal size.  'Most normal golfers' are not over 6' 2" tall, don't have shoulders several inches higher and wider, have longer legs, much higher WTF lengths, etc.  Why is it so inconceivable that driver length just like iron length would need to be longer for those of us who reside in the 1% for height?  The only thing that matters is the head coming into impact in the proper orientation.  If you are over 6' 2" you are going to have a hell of a time getting the head into its proper orientation.  It will likely be a bit toe down for us. Add in an upward angle of attack with a club that is too short and it's a recipe for disaster.   It's not a bad thing just make the proper adjustments to the equipment


You ovbiously have some misconceptions about cause and effect in terms of club changes. Prime example, Matt Kuchar. Sub 45" and one of the flattest planes out there. He hits it pretty good, no?  Again, your fact aren't facts. You are trying to make it into fact, but it isn't.

It may very well work for you, but you can look around, the studies have been done and the results are out there and easy to duplicate....most golfers cannot handle the additional length to their benefit.  There is a point of diminishing returns.

On a side note, I would enjoy seeing an honest launch monitor report of you clubs at the extended lengths. No fudging numbers, just an honest asessment.

I'm not sure what that would prove ?  Are you wanting to compare standard length to over length ?  If so I'm game. But I warn you it isn't a fair fight.  My iron distances and dispersion are off the charts better longer than standard.
Where are these studies published ?  I just googled " study on tall golfers using over length clubs " and got a bunch of nonsense that are just hits on key words.   Over length hurts standard height players. But tall guys should generally use a club that's to  scale.  We don't ask junior golfers to use adults clubs , nor should 6ft 4 golfers use clubs who are designed for 5ft 8 guys.  Seems like common sense to me. I only wish the light bulb went on for me sooner

No, I'm speaking of right length vs wrong length, or extremes.  A lot of that, although I did not get specific so my fault for not going into detail, revolves around longer length drivers/fairways.  Willing to bet quite a bit that a properly built <45" driver will outperform one at 46"+ with almost total certainty.  You don't need to get into longer lengths than that for anyone except maybe Yao Ming and Shaq.  That's exactly why I brought up Kucher as a perfect example of why it doesn't work the way that Rybo thinks it does.  He's made plenty of "assumptions" in the other thread as well that's in the cooler.  He's making a general assumption on length based on very small samples.  iTeach told him the same things, it doesn't work the way he thinks it does in his head.

Here's the issue with irons.  I'm a 100% fine with longer length short irons.  Do we not swing clubs that are longer than our 9 iron?  So why can't we make our wedges the same length as an 8 iron?  Heck, Wishon will sell you an entire set that's the same length through the set.  Cobra too!  But why exactly do we need a 3 iron that's 41" long when we swing another iron perfect fine from the same set that's 2" shorter?  Why make it harder on ourselves to make solid contact.  What's the difference here between the two lengths? Another reason why the lie angle argument makes no sense.  You already swing a club that's shorter and has a higher lie angle, what makes another iron impossible to hit at the same specs?  Nothing!  This is exactly why the single-length iron concept can work.  You don't have to have A just because of B.  Saying otherwise is pure poop.  There is a minumum, I will agree, but that doesn't mean the whole set has to be treated the same way to make it work.  People use single length, 3/8", 1/4"...it can all work.  Attempting to say that a certain iron has to fall in a certain lie angle range and has to be X long in length is just simply uninformed.  Just because an gap wedge works best and puts you in the best posture when it's at a "standard" 8 iron length, doesn't mean a 3 iron has to increase by the same amount.  No reason to say that a 3 iron with an increased lie angle will not fit someone that needs the longer short irons.  You just made it the same as your 5 iron would be!  How can that be completely wrong and not work?  But by Rybo's account, it can't be done because the swing plane goes amuck?  Make sense?

If you'll notice, I did not advocate any length at all in any of my posts, for anyone with exception of the driver.  What I did state was that there was a point of diminishing returns.  I don't care what a person't height is, you can't expect to add a ton of length to a club and expect reasonable contact for most people.  As I referenced before, just look at the posted monitor results that are all around the forum.  The driver length is wide open in terms of options vs height, it's not that specific.  A 6'5" person is not going to handle a 46" long driver any better than a 5'10" person is.  Making you taller, doesn't give you any better hand/eye coordination.  He was trying to justify needing a longer driver just due to height/wrist to floor, and it just doesn't work that way.  You have 13 other clubs that are shorter, but all the sudden your driver has to be longer or it doesn't fit?  Again, it's unjustified and makes zero sense.  You can swing a 5 iron at 40" but can use a driver that's less than 46"?  It doesn't work the way he is thinking it does.  Again, why I referenced Kuchar as a perfect example as to why that it's not the case.  We can go further down the list if one likes?  Furyk is what?  6'2".  He's sub 45".  I mean...there are more.

http://www.golfdiges...ft-on-your-game

If you'll also notice, I did not challenge his personal results in any way shape or form.  I made it a point to say that I wasn't.

I hear what your saying about the iron lengths. I don't have my set climbing at 1/2 inch lengths every step either.   And on driver I don't play one over 45 myself.  But that's a different animal.  Driver swing for me is nothing like my iron swing.  But I am not sure what either of those has to do with saying " it just doesn't work the way he thinks it does". That's a rather broad statement that sounds a bit more like " he's an idiot and couldn't possibly have sense enough to know what works for him ".    I've gotten that same look from many pros and fitters myself over the years.  Yet I manage to be a low single digit handicap that has been the only person so far to fit me into any club except driver. And I've not had a driver that was fitted by someone else  stay in my possession longer than 6 months yet.
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#84 Golfrnut

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 07:17 AM

View Postrybo, on 18 November 2016 - 05:27 AM, said:

  Please don't take swing plane out of context. Specifically in the short irons, by only changing lie angle more upright, the ball moves closer to the golfer and will require the golfer to swing on a steeper plane.

It doesn't "require" anything.  Please stop trying to make that a fact, because it isn't.

Quote

Tall people have a different point of diminishing returns. Average height people use a range of lengths between 35"-45.5", exceptionally tall people use a range of lengths between 37.5"-48". Again I do not consider this extreme, I'm 7" taller, have a WTF 4" higher and have shoulders that are 6.2" higher then the average person, it's not unreasonable to use a driver that is at most 1 1/2" longer then even the most conservative standard. Tall people are just proportionately much bigger. And there's a good reason the majority of people who do long drive are quite tall, they absolutely can 'handle' the longer driver better. Somebody like Sadlowski is the exception. I would go as far to say Sadlowski is the extreme in the instance of long drive.

Are you really trying to sell this as a factual statement?!?  Really?!?  And trying to use long drivers as a source to back that up?!?  Long drivers are not even in consideration, their methodology for the way the club is set up is COMPLETELY different than the goals of those that play normal rounds of golf.  Have you seen the consistency of a long driver?  Do you think Monte uses the same length LD as he does during a normal course of play?  You are being absolutely ridiculous here.  Height has absolutely ZERO to do with skill, natural ability, talent, etc.  My mind is absolutely blown here that you are even trying to justify it that way.  You are way off in left field on this....
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#85 Golfrnut

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 07:27 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 18 November 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

I hear what your saying about the iron lengths. I don't have my set climbing at 1/2 inch lengths every step either. And on driver I don't play one over 45 myself. But that's a different animal. Driver swing for me is nothing like my iron swing.

My point exactly.  His justification for needing a longer driver was due to his height, and it's not a valid argument for length.  Which is where the other references came from.


Quote

But I am not sure what either of those has to do with saying " it just doesn't work the way he thinks it does". That's a rather broad statement that sounds a bit more like " he's an idiot and couldn't possibly have sense enough to know what works for him ".

Nope, not at all.  But it's obvious from previous posts that he really doesn't understand the cause/effect.  Telling me that if his driver was shorter, saying it's going to go toe down, trying to change the lie angle has to alter swing plane, etc.  You can play a 44" fairway wood, but doing the same with a driver is just an absurd thought?!?  It's glaringly obvious he's trying to justify certain things on things he doesn't quite understand.

If one wants to play a 50" driver, by all means, have a blast.  But don't try to justify saying it has to be that way because of A, B, etc. because it doesn't.

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#86 rybo

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 07:42 AM

View PostGolfrnut, on 18 November 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

View Postrybo, on 18 November 2016 - 05:27 AM, said:

  Please don't take swing plane out of context. Specifically in the short irons, by only changing lie angle more upright, the ball moves closer to the golfer and will require the golfer to swing on a steeper plane.

It doesn't "require" anything.  Please stop trying to make that a fact, because it isn't.

Quote

Tall people have a different point of diminishing returns. Average height people use a range of lengths between 35"-45.5", exceptionally tall people use a range of lengths between 37.5"-48". Again I do not consider this extreme, I'm 7" taller, have a WTF 4" higher and have shoulders that are 6.2" higher then the average person, it's not unreasonable to use a driver that is at most 1 1/2" longer then even the most conservative standard. Tall people are just proportionately much bigger. And there's a good reason the majority of people who do long drive are quite tall, they absolutely can 'handle' the longer driver better. Somebody like Sadlowski is the exception. I would go as far to say Sadlowski is the extreme in the instance of long drive.

Are you really trying to sell this as a factual statement?!?  Really?!?  And trying to use long drivers as a source to back that up?!?  Long drivers are not even in consideration, their methodology for the way the club is set up is COMPLETELY different than the goals of those that play normal rounds of golf.  Have you seen the consistency of a long driver?  Do you think Monte uses the same length LD as he does during a normal course of play?  You are being absolutely ridiculous here.  Height has absolutely ZERO to do with skill, natural ability, talent, etc.  My mind is absolutely blown here that you are even trying to justify it that way.  You are way off in left field on this....

So what changes swing plane?  You think the club has no effect on what angle the club is swung on?  So a driver and a wedge swing on the same plane? next you'll tell me club length has no effect on posture.

If you don't understand the relationship between somebody's body proportions, in the instance of golf specifically higher shoulder height and WTF lengths, requiring different length clubs then nothing I say will change your mind. Then honestly its not worth my time trying to educate you in the fitting dilemmas tall people deal with.    

You are correct height has nothing to do with skill, but it has everything to do with distance.  Distance from the ground to shoulder and from the ground to WTF is much higher for tall people.  You have two choices, make the club longer or contort the body down to the club.  But of course you've never experienced this so you think I'm just crazy guy with outlandish ideas.  Go back and read what the tall people in this thread are saying.  They understand it because they live it every time they play.

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#87 Golfrnut

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 07:50 AM

View Postrybo, on 18 November 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

You have two choices, make the club longer or contort the body down to the club. But of course you've never experienced this so you think I'm just crazy guy with outlandish ideas. Go back and read what the tall people in this thread are saying. They understand it because they live it every time they play.

You are still ignoring the example I posted above.  You play what, a 44" fairway?  So you have to contort the body down to the club?  Remember what you said when I brought up the shorter driver before?

Quote

If these much shorter LPGA women can handle longer drivers I'm pretty sure taller players can. Maybe the worst argument ever.  And the point I believe you are missing is the extra length is easier to hit since it allows the head to be in the proper orientation at impact.  A toe down fairway wood or driver is a very real issue.  I would love to see a Trackman study on a driver that is truly too short with an upward angle of attack.  Guarantee it will be a slice!  Toe down with upward AOA produces a very open face.

And....

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Drivers just like irons are designed for the masses.  Those of us over 6' 2" don't fit the 3 standard deviations of normal size.  'Most normal golfers' are not over 6' 2" tall, don't have shoulders several inches higher and wider, have longer legs, much higher WTF lengths, etc.  Why is it so inconceivable that driver length just like iron length would need to be longer for those of us who reside in the 1% for height?  The only thing that matters is the head coming into impact in the proper orientation.  If you are over 6' 2" you are going to have a hell of a time getting the head into its proper orientation.  It will likely be a bit toe down for us. Add in an upward angle of attack with a club that is too short and it's a recipe for disaster.

But because it has a different number on the club, it's now magically okay for it to be that length? You are worried about being toe down on a fairway, but you can hit a 3 iron just fine that's 3" shorter.

Doesn't the title of this thread have "preconceived ideas" in it?  You are guilty of your own accusations.

Edited by Golfrnut, 18 November 2016 - 07:53 AM.

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#88 rybo

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 07:51 AM

View PostGolfrnut, on 18 November 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 18 November 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

I hear what your saying about the iron lengths. I don't have my set climbing at 1/2 inch lengths every step either. And on driver I don't play one over 45 myself. But that's a different animal. Driver swing for me is nothing like my iron swing.

My point exactly.  His justification for needing a longer driver was due to his height, and it's not a valid argument for length.  Which is where the other references came from.


Quote

But I am not sure what either of those has to do with saying " it just doesn't work the way he thinks it does". That's a rather broad statement that sounds a bit more like " he's an idiot and couldn't possibly have sense enough to know what works for him ".

Nope, not at all.  But it's obvious from previous posts that he really doesn't understand the cause/effect.  Telling me that if his driver was shorter, saying it's going to go toe down, trying to change the lie angle has to alter swing plane, etc.  You can play a 44" fairway wood, but doing the same with a driver is just an absurd thought?!?  It's glaringly obvious he's trying to justify certain things on things he doesn't quite understand.

If one wants to play a 50" driver, by all means, have a blast.  But don't try to justify saying it has to be that way because of A, B, etc. because it doesn't.

My needing a longer driver comes from the fact my hands are several inches higher then the average person.  The length is needed to make the head level at impact. With a short driver I will have to make up the missing length by bending over too much.    Rory plays a 45.5" driver and he's a whopping 5' 8".  I am 8" taller and my driver 1" longer, this is in no way even remotely extreme.  Drivers are designed for the masses, they are not designed for people who are exceptionally tall.

So one's height in your opinion plays no role in needing longer clubs?  Truly ridiculous.  This myopic view is exactly why tall people have to find a fitter that understands the needs of the taller player.   I guess my longer legs play no role in me needing longer pants?!?!

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#89 rybo

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 08:12 AM

Here is a pic of my 3 wood that is 44 1/4". Took a picture while playing yesterday due to the tee mark left on the sole.  Perfectly centered and square. The head is in the correct orientation at impact.

IMG_4691.JPG

Prior to going longer, my tee marks were never in this location. They had the notorious 'fish hook' marks that started toe side of center at the face and hooked off the toe of the club.   Increasing the length was the fix. This club has the ability to go more upright, and that did not stop the fish hook marks.

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#90 Golfrnut

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 08:21 AM

You are still ignoring what I asked...

Feel free to actually give me an answer.  What makes the 3 wood and the driver so different?  If you hit the 3 wood at that length...why does the drive HAVE to be longer just because you are taller?

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