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Does Taylor Made tip their shafts?


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#31 wobgon

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 12:14 PM

I was always told that they tip the shafts because a shaft will play softer in an adapter than straight in a head with no adapter.....For example, a shaft will play the same in an m1 adapter tipped 1 inch as it will in a glued hosel with no tipping.


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#32 Stuart G.

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 12:21 PM

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I was always told that they tip the shafts because a shaft will play softer in an adapter than straight in a head with no adapter.....For example, a shaft will play the same in an m1 adapter tipped 1 inch as it will in a glued hosel with no tipping.

That's a very common misconception but isn't true.  BBTG, bore depth, head weight - yes those all can make a difference,  but adapter or not - no, not by itself.

I believe it actually got started as a result of Titleist's practice - which actually was because of their change from the previous bore through designs to a standard bore design (which also happened at the same time they started using adapters).   TM's practices are relatively new compared to Titleist's.

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#33 Bomber_11

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 12:21 PM

Guess we'll find out!


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#34 swanry30

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 12:29 PM

View PostStuart G., on 22 November 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I was always told that they tip the shafts because a shaft will play softer in an adapter than straight in a head with no adapter.....For example, a shaft will play the same in an m1 adapter tipped 1 inch as it will in a glued hosel with no tipping.

That's a very common misconception but isn't true.  BBTG, bore depth, head weight - yes those all can make a difference,  but adapter or not - no, not by itself.

I believe it actually got started as a result of Titleist's practice - which actually was because of their change from the previous bore through designs to a standard bore design (which also happened at the same time they started using adapters).   TM's practices are relatively new compared to Titleist's.

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#35 wobgon

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 01:28 PM

View PostStuart G., on 22 November 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I was always told that they tip the shafts because a shaft will play softer in an adapter than straight in a head with no adapter.....For example, a shaft will play the same in an m1 adapter tipped 1 inch as it will in a glued hosel with no tipping.

That's a very common misconception but isn't true.  BBTG, bore depth, head weight - yes those all can make a difference,  but adapter or not - no, not by itself.

I believe it actually got started as a result of Titleist's practice - which actually was because of their change from the previous bore through designs to a standard bore design (which also happened at the same time they started using adapters).   TM's practices are relatively new compared to Titleist's.
As a matter of fact, i first heard that when I called Titleist and asked them if they tipped their shafts when the 910 first came out.....They told me they did for the reason i stated above....I know from reading your posts that you know more about this than I......While i'm at it , let me ask you....Simple question, and should be simple answer.....If i am installing a new uncut shaft in an M1 and want it to play to flex stated by the shaft manufacture, should it be installed straight in?....I know i will need to butt cut.


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#36 wobgon

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 01:30 PM

View Postswanry30, on 22 November 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 22 November 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I was always told that they tip the shafts because a shaft will play softer in an adapter than straight in a head with no adapter.....For example, a shaft will play the same in an m1 adapter tipped 1 inch as it will in a glued hosel with no tipping.

That's a very common misconception but isn't true.  BBTG, bore depth, head weight - yes those all can make a difference,  but adapter or not - no, not by itself.

I believe it actually got started as a result of Titleist's practice - which actually was because of their change from the previous bore through designs to a standard bore design (which also happened at the same time they started using adapters).   TM's practices are relatively new compared to Titleist's.

BBGM
At risk of appearing stupid, what does BBGM mean?

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#37 Roadking_6

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 01:35 PM

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 22 November 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I was always told that they tip the shafts because a shaft will play softer in an adapter than straight in a head with no adapter.....For example, a shaft will play the same in an m1 adapter tipped 1 inch as it will in a glued hosel with no tipping.

That's a very common misconception but isn't true.  BBTG, bore depth, head weight - yes those all can make a difference,  but adapter or not - no, not by itself.

I believe it actually got started as a result of Titleist's practice - which actually was because of their change from the previous bore through designs to a standard bore design (which also happened at the same time they started using adapters).   TM's practices are relatively new compared to Titleist's.
As a matter of fact, i first heard that when I called Titleist and asked them if they tipped their shafts when the 910 first came out.....They told me they did for the reason i stated above....I know from reading your posts that you know more about this than I......While i'm at it , let me ask you....Simple question, and should be simple answer.....If i am installing a new uncut shaft in an M1 and want it to play to flex stated by the shaft manufacture, should it be installed straight in?....I know i will need to butt cut.
That is what I did with mine. Got an Untipped shaft and installed it straight in. With the AD GP line, the stiffest part of the shaft is in the tip so tipping it essentially makes this shaft softer.

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#38 Roadking_6

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 01:38 PM

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

View Postswanry30, on 22 November 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 22 November 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I was always told that they tip the shafts because a shaft will play softer in an adapter than straight in a head with no adapter.....For example, a shaft will play the same in an m1 adapter tipped 1 inch as it will in a glued hosel with no tipping.

That's a very common misconception but isn't true.  BBTG, bore depth, head weight - yes those all can make a difference,  but adapter or not - no, not by itself.

I believe it actually got started as a result of Titleist's practice - which actually was because of their change from the previous bore through designs to a standard bore design (which also happened at the same time they started using adapters).   TM's practices are relatively new compared to Titleist's.

BBGM
At risk of appearing stupid, what does BBGM mean?
Bottom of Bore to Ground Measurement. Essentially how much putting a head on a shaft will ad to the total length. 44" shaft and put the head on it plays 45", you have a 1" BBGM if I understand correctly. I am not a builder but just what I get from all the reading.

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#39 Stuart G.

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 01:52 PM

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 22 November 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I was always told that they tip the shafts because a shaft will play softer in an adapter than straight in a head with no adapter.....For example, a shaft will play the same in an m1 adapter tipped 1 inch as it will in a glued hosel with no tipping.

That's a very common misconception but isn't true.  BBTG, bore depth, head weight - yes those all can make a difference,  but adapter or not - no, not by itself.

I believe it actually got started as a result of Titleist's practice - which actually was because of their change from the previous bore through designs to a standard bore design (which also happened at the same time they started using adapters).   TM's practices are relatively new compared to Titleist's.
As a matter of fact, i first heard that when I called Titleist and asked them if they tipped their shafts when the 910 first came out.....They told me they did for the reason i stated above....I know from reading your posts that you know more about this than I......

What I learned about the reasons for Titlest choice to start tipping their driver shafts came from the Titleist reps on the Team Titleist forum.   So while I can't specifically address any inconsistencies for info coming out of Titleist, here are a few thoughts.  Take them for what they are, just my opinions.

1) The "adapter" being the reason is true in an indirect sense (just for Titleist) since the change to use an adapter also meant the change to no longer using a bore through design.  It's a jump that's just as easy for the Titleist folks as it is for the rest of us    2) The alternative explanation of wanting aftermarket shafts to play similar in the newer standard bore/adapter heads as they used to play in the previous model bore through heads makes a lot of sense to me so I think it's very believable.  3) IF I remember correctly, unlike the TM heads, the BBTG for the 910 was 1.5" and the head weight wasn't very excessive. 4) despite the BBTG seeming to get longer in some of the newest Titlest driver heads, the list of shafts that get tipped 'extra' by Titleist seems to be getting smaller and smaller each year.


View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

While i'm at it , let me ask you....Simple question, and should be simple answer.....If i am installing a new uncut shaft in an M1 and want it to play to flex stated by the shaft manufacture, should it be installed straight in?....I know i will need to butt cut.

I hate that question :-)     "play to flex stated by the shaft manufacturer" is one of the most meaningless statements in the golf equipment business.  Or maybe it's more accurate to say it's a statement with so many different meanings that it's useless.  So no, it's not really a simple question.

We commonly use the phrase, "to play as designed" and then for that we compare the head specs (weight, BBTG, bore depth) to the 'standards' of 200 gm, 1.5", ~1-1/4".   And based on the differences choose an amount of tipping.    However, this isn't as accurate as one my think (again in my opinion).  Driver head specs are changing so much that it's hard to really know what the specs the shaft designers used.    But M1 BBTG is 1-3/4" so that would give us 1/4" tipping.  Bore depth is really a non-issue with the M1 and you'll have to provide the actual weight.   Usually it's about 1/2" for each 10 gm over the 200 gm 'standard'.   And yes, you do include the weight of the adapter with the weight of the head.

But how do you know you really want the shaft to play as it was designed to play?   Which brings us to:

The best way to approach it is by comparing the specs of your driver to whatever the specs were in the club you used to demo the shaft that lead you to choose that shaft (assuming you you want it to feel the same as in the demo).  To really determine amount of tipping, we need some actual reference point from the players experience that we want to match.  

If you've never actually demo'd the shaft or the specs of the demo club are not available (no actual reference point based on experience), it's usually best to start with no tipping for a driver, actually take the club out to test it and then go back and tip more if the results of the test warrant it.    In some other cases, past experiences with other shafts can lead us to a good estimate.   e.g.  we know we liked shaft A with X tipping in this set-up, and we know the relative stiffness or bend profile of shaft B, then we might be able to guess at how much tipping you'd like in shaft B.    But even that's still a guess and it's best to err on the side of less tipping than more.


I know, a long winded answer that just seemed to avoid answering the question.

Edited by Stuart G., 22 November 2016 - 02:02 PM.


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#40 wobgon

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 05:43 PM

View PostStuart G., on 22 November 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 22 November 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I was always told that they tip the shafts because a shaft will play softer in an adapter than straight in a head with no adapter.....For example, a shaft will play the same in an m1 adapter tipped 1 inch as it will in a glued hosel with no tipping.

That's a very common misconception but isn't true.  BBTG, bore depth, head weight - yes those all can make a difference,  but adapter or not - no, not by itself.

I believe it actually got started as a result of Titleist's practice - which actually was because of their change from the previous bore through designs to a standard bore design (which also happened at the same time they started using adapters).   TM's practices are relatively new compared to Titleist's.
As a matter of fact, i first heard that when I called Titleist and asked them if they tipped their shafts when the 910 first came out.....They told me they did for the reason i stated above....I know from reading your posts that you know more about this than I......

What I learned about the reasons for Titlest choice to start tipping their driver shafts came from the Titleist reps on the Team Titleist forum.   So while I can't specifically address any inconsistencies for info coming out of Titleist, here are a few thoughts.  Take them for what they are, just my opinions.

1) The "adapter" being the reason is true in an indirect sense (just for Titleist) since the change to use an adapter also meant the change to no longer using a bore through design.  It's a jump that's just as easy for the Titleist folks as it is for the rest of us 2) The alternative explanation of wanting aftermarket shafts to play similar in the newer standard bore/adapter heads as they used to play in the previous model bore through heads makes a lot of sense to me so I think it's very believable.  3) IF I remember correctly, unlike the TM heads, the BBTG for the 910 was 1.5" and the head weight wasn't very excessive. 4) despite the BBTG seeming to get longer in some of the newest Titlest driver heads, the list of shafts that get tipped 'extra' by Titleist seems to be getting smaller and smaller each year.


View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

While i'm at it , let me ask you....Simple question, and should be simple answer.....If i am installing a new uncut shaft in an M1 and want it to play to flex stated by the shaft manufacture, should it be installed straight in?....I know i will need to butt cut.

I hate that question :-) "play to flex stated by the shaft manufacturer" is one of the most meaningless statements in the golf equipment business.  Or maybe it's more accurate to say it's a statement with so many different meanings that it's useless.  So no, it's not really a simple question.

We commonly use the phrase, "to play as designed" and then for that we compare the head specs (weight, BBTG, bore depth) to the 'standards' of 200 gm, 1.5", ~1-1/4".   And based on the differences choose an amount of tipping. However, this isn't as accurate as one my think (again in my opinion).  Driver head specs are changing so much that it's hard to really know what the specs the shaft designers used. But M1 BBTG is 1-3/4" so that would give us 1/4" tipping.  Bore depth is really a non-issue with the M1 and you'll have to provide the actual weight.   Usually it's about 1/2" for each 10 gm over the 200 gm 'standard'.   And yes, you do include the weight of the adapter with the weight of the head.

But how do you know you really want the shaft to play as it was designed to play?   Which brings us to:

The best way to approach it is by comparing the specs of your driver to whatever the specs were in the club you used to demo the shaft that lead you to choose that shaft (assuming you you want it to feel the same as in the demo).  To really determine amount of tipping, we need some actual reference point from the players experience that we want to match.  

If you've never actually demo'd the shaft or the specs of the demo club are not available (no actual reference point based on experience), it's usually best to start with no tipping for a driver, actually take the club out to test it and then go back and tip more if the results of the test warrant it. In some other cases, past experiences with other shafts can lead us to a good estimate.   e.g.  we know we liked shaft A with X tipping in this set-up, and we know the relative stiffness or bend profile of shaft B, then we might be able to guess at how much tipping you'd like in shaft B. But even that's still a guess and it's best to err on the side of less tipping than more.


I know, a long winded answer that just seemed to avoid answering the question.
Maybe this will help but maybe not.....I have a shaft in a G30 installed strait in, no tipping......I want to install identical shaft brand new in an M1 430.....I like it very much in the G30 and would like it to play similar in the M1.......


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#41 apprenti23

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 09:04 PM

Are they even tipping the real deal shafts or do they only tip the made for shafts from taiwan and Vietnam?

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#42 Stuart G.

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 04:48 AM

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

Maybe this will help but maybe not.....I have a shaft in a G30 installed strait in, no tipping......I want to install identical shaft brand new in an M1 430.....I like it very much in the G30 and would like it to play similar in the M1.......

Yes it would.  Never measured the BBTG for the G30, but my Ping G has a BBTG of 1.5".   Can't say for sure but the G30 is probably the same.  You should double check that - and it should be pretty easy since it's an adjustable head.

However, using that BBTG and assuming same grip, same length and you build it to get the same swing weight (adjust the head weights to be the same), then you only need to account for the different BBTG which would be 1/4" of tipping.   However, realistically the first 1/4" of tipping is unlikely to produce any noticeable change in feel so you can probably just install it with no tipping and still get the same feel.

Now, if for some reason, if you want to change the playing length or swing weight (really head weight), some additional adjustment might be warranted.

View Postapprenti23, on 22 November 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

Are they even tipping the real deal shafts or do they only tip the made for shafts from taiwan and Vietnam?

Actually, the definitely do tip the custom upgrade shafts ('real' aftermarket shafts).  However, I don't think they tip any of the stock proprietary shafts.

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#43 juniorgolf18

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 10:08 PM

View PostStuart G., on 23 November 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

View Postwobgon, on 22 November 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

Maybe this will help but maybe not.....I have a shaft in a G30 installed strait in, no tipping......I want to install identical shaft brand new in an M1 430.....I like it very much in the G30 and would like it to play similar in the M1.......

Yes it would.  Never measured the BBTG for the G30, but my Ping G has a BBTG of 1.5".   Can't say for sure but the G30 is probably the same.  You should double check that - and it should be pretty easy since it's an adjustable head.

However, using that BBTG and assuming same grip, same length and you build it to get the same swing weight (adjust the head weights to be the same), then you only need to account for the different BBTG which would be 1/4" of tipping.   However, realistically the first 1/4" of tipping is unlikely to produce any noticeable change in feel so you can probably just install it with no tipping and still get the same feel.

Now, if for some reason, if you want to change the playing length or swing weight (really head weight), some additional adjustment might be warranted.

View Postapprenti23, on 22 November 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

Are they even tipping the real deal shafts or do they only tip the made for shafts from taiwan and Vietnam?

Actually, the definitely do tip the custom upgrade shafts ('real' aftermarket shafts).  However, I don't think they tip any of the stock proprietary shafts.

So when ordering from TM, if you get a non upcharge shaft, are you getting the knockoff version?

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#44 Stuart G.

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 04:45 AM

View Postjuniorgolf18, on 23 November 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

So when ordering from TM, if you get a non upcharge shaft, are you getting the knockoff version?

For the M1/M2, not sure whether the fuji pro series they use is aftermarket or proprietary (they don't seem to allow for 'soft' tipping in the custom ordering so don't appear to be tipped automatically), and there is a TM Reax option still available but the rest of the stock and no-charge upgrades are not proprietary versions.

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#45 juniorgolf18

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 09:21 AM

View PostStuart G., on 24 November 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

View Postjuniorgolf18, on 23 November 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

So when ordering from TM, if you get a non upcharge shaft, are you getting the knockoff version?

For the M1/M2, not sure whether the fuji pro series they use is aftermarket or proprietary (they don't seem to allow for 'soft' tipping in the custom ordering so don't appear to be tipped automatically), and there is a TM Reax option still available but the rest of the stock and no-charge upgrades are not proprietary versions.

So of the non upcharge ones they offer, which would be the best to get? I can get anything 50% off there today thru Monday so am going to pick up an M2.  

But on 2ns thought, i get the shaft for 50% off too so any recommendations for picking up an upcharge shaft.  Need one that isn't low spin, for a elite junior girl, as around 92-95, so need some spin to get airborne. Right now has M1 with weights both in back. Also have a spare HZRDUS red shaft.


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#46 Stuart G.

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 09:36 AM

Sorry, this probably wont be as helpful as you are hoping for but the "Best" shaft for any individual is the one with the weight and bend profile that best fits that particular players swing.   There is no other way to rate the shafts independent of how it feels or performs for the player.   A firmer bend profile can reduce launch and spin for some people but it's not always that effective and for many the effects can be quite small.   The swing itself and the head loft are the more important contributing factors to launch and spin.

The shaft weight is actually and getting a good playing length are generally much more important to getting good results.

Do you have a retail store or pro shop nearby that has a TM fitting cart and thus the ability to demo and test out different shaft options?

What shaft is in the M1?  Is there anything you can tell us why you think it may or may not be a good fit for you?  

Have you had a chance to hit that HZRDUS red?  What flex and what weight is it?

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#47 juniorgolf18

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 11:34 AM

View PostStuart G., on 24 November 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Sorry, this probably wont be as helpful as you are hoping for but the "Best" shaft for any individual is the one with the weight and bend profile that best fits that particular players swing.   There is no other way to rate the shafts independent of how it feels or performs for the player.   A firmer bend profile can reduce launch and spin for some people but it's not always that effective and for many the effects can be quite small.   The swing itself and the head loft are the more important contributing factors to launch and spin.

The shaft weight is actually and getting a good playing length are generally much more important to getting good results.

Do you have a retail store or pro shop nearby that has a TM fitting cart and thus the ability to demo and test out different shaft options?

What shaft is in the M1?  Is there anything you can tell us why you think it may or may not be a good fit for you?  

Have you had a chance to hit that HZRDUS red?  What flex and what weight is it?

We have a TM rep with all the shafts. Says he's going to have the new ones after the show in December...

The M1 has the NV Orange in it. It's pretty solid but has been a little erratic early in (just had a couple weeks). Distance and carry distance. But when hit, has been long. Thinking maybe M2 forgiveness will be better.

Haven't hit the HZRDUS yet, didn't get in time before the Polo to get settled in with it. It is stiff and 62g.

It's just that today thru Monday we can get anything at 50% off and was going to pick up an M2 head and shaft comes along ;)

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#48 Stuart G.

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 05:21 AM

Erratic performance is much more often an issue of how well of a fit the playing length, shaft weight, swing weight might be as opposed to the bend profile of the shaft or even how forgiving the head is.

I understand the temptation of a good deal but you might want to consider working through this tutorial on fitting those specs before committing to any purchase otherwise you are just rolling the dice as to whether the new purchase will be any better than your current driver.

http://www.golfwrx.c...driver fitting

Edited by Stuart G., 25 November 2016 - 05:21 AM.


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#49 dunn

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Posted 26 November 2016 - 05:57 PM

Why is TM tipping shafts that the manufacturer states they require no tipping in a driver?.....seems so ridiculous to me and is bound to cause confusion and people playing too stiff a shaft.....

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#50 Stuart G.

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 04:46 AM

View Postdunn, on 26 November 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

Why is TM tipping shafts that the manufacturer states they require no tipping in a driver?.....seems so ridiculous to me and is bound to cause confusion and people playing too stiff a shaft.....

That's the $1,000,000.00 question.    Been asked more times than I can count and still no answer has been found.


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#51 QuickFeet

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 07:49 AM

LOL..........not sure what TaylorMade custom does with an order it receives.  Ordered an M2 through one of their Level 3 fitting centers.......nothing that I would consider unusual.

Request was 45" playing length, D2-D2.5 swing weight and Plus 4 grip with logo down.

Ha......they got one of the three right; the grip.  The one that is probably the least important.

Swing weight came at C8 and the length at 45.5".  The order went in correct, my fitter provided me a copy of the order.  The paperwork that came with the driver had the correct order specs as well.  I'm not sure how you can be off on a build this much..........custom orders should be perfect as it doesn't cost any more money/time to build it to the request.
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#52 Stuart G.

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 07:57 AM

Well, we actually see the same from all the OEM factories.  SW requests can be problematic as they tend to limit to how much weight control they have over the heads but that light when they didn't even cut to the shorter length seems a bit sloppy and rest shouldn't be all that difficult.

I hope you sent it back.

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#53 QuickFeet

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 08:04 AM

Naw..........no big deal; I do agree with you on the "sloppy" builds on custom from the OEM's though.

I'll cut to 45" and then I'll put around 6 grams of hot melt in the head.  My fitter is sending me a selection of weights for the M2.  I'll use one of the weights to get the SW up to the D2.2 range.

I ordered the Matrix White Tie 50X4; according to the Matrix published specs this shaft is supposed to have 3" parallel tip section.  I used my calipers and measured the parallel section; accounting for the tip section withing the shaft tip I'm getting 3" measured at 0.338" diameter so it appears that this shaft was not tipped; build spec sheet that came with the driver shows "Shaft Tip: Standard."

Edited by QuickFeet, 27 November 2016 - 09:41 AM.

TaylorMade M2 10.5o / Matrix White Tie 50X4 R
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#54 Valtiel

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 10:08 AM

View PostStuart G., on 27 November 2016 - 04:46 AM, said:

View Postdunn, on 26 November 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

Why is TM tipping shafts that the manufacturer states they require no tipping in a driver?.....seems so ridiculous to me and is bound to cause confusion and people playing too stiff a shaft.....

That's the $1,000,000.00 question.    Been asked more times than I can count and still no answer has been found.

It would not surprise me if given how obsessed some people are with spin numbers that TM tips their shafts so they always stack up favorably with the competition. It satisfies two key points.

1) It piques the interest of John Doe Golfer who read online that he needs to get his spin numbers down AND the more experienced player that actually does while having no negative impact on the customer that is oblivious to said numbers.

2) It explains why there has never been a concrete answer. They couldn't admit that they are stacking the deck like that.

Edited by Valtiel, 27 November 2016 - 10:09 AM.

Posted Image M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX || Posted Image 915D3 8.5* Diamana Kai'li 80x
  Posted Image  XHot 3Deep Pro 14.5* Fujikura Motore VC 8.3 Tour Spec X
| | Posted Image SQ2 13* Diamana Blueboard 83x
Posted Image Tour Issue SQ2 17* Diamana Blueboard 103x || Posted Image SQ2 15* Diamana Blueboard 93x
Posted Image Anser 20* Aldila Rogue Black 110MSI 105h Tour-X || Posted Image V-Steel 21* Project X Rifle Satin 6.5
Posted Image MP-H4 3i 21* Project X PXi 7.0
Posted Image MP-H4 4i 24* Project X PXi 7.0

Posted Image MP-59 4i-PW 27*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Posted Image Mild Raw 8620 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Posted Image  SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind
Brunswick Precision FCM 7.3 SSx1
Posted Image Special 62* Black Oxide V-Grind Brunswick Precision FCM 7.3 SSx2
Posted Image Santa Fe Bullseye shaft
                                                             WITB Thread

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#55 Stuart G.

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 04:25 AM

View PostValtiel, on 27 November 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 27 November 2016 - 04:46 AM, said:

View Postdunn, on 26 November 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

Why is TM tipping shafts that the manufacturer states they require no tipping in a driver?.....seems so ridiculous to me and is bound to cause confusion and people playing too stiff a shaft.....

That's the $1,000,000.00 question. Been asked more times than I can count and still no answer has been found.

It would not surprise me if given how obsessed some people are with spin numbers that TM tips their shafts so they always stack up favorably with the competition. It satisfies two key points.

1) It piques the interest of John Doe Golfer who read online that he needs to get his spin numbers down AND the more experienced player that actually does while having no negative impact on the customer that is oblivious to said numbers.

2) It explains why there has never been a concrete answer. They couldn't admit that they are stacking the deck like that.

The main flaw in that theory is that they don't tip the stock shaft - only aftermarkets - which is a extremely small percentage of the sales. So the impact on the customer base is quite tiny.   And in addition the stock shaft (which the vast majority of people testing/demoing the club will use when comparing to other clubs) itself isn't really a very low launching shaft so those wont see that same bias.


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#56 Valtiel

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 04:51 AM

View PostStuart G., on 28 November 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

View PostValtiel, on 27 November 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 27 November 2016 - 04:46 AM, said:

View Postdunn, on 26 November 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

Why is TM tipping shafts that the manufacturer states they require no tipping in a driver?.....seems so ridiculous to me and is bound to cause confusion and people playing too stiff a shaft.....

That's the $1,000,000.00 question. Been asked more times than I can count and still no answer has been found.

It would not surprise me if given how obsessed some people are with spin numbers that TM tips their shafts so they always stack up favorably with the competition. It satisfies two key points.

1) It piques the interest of John Doe Golfer who read online that he needs to get his spin numbers down AND the more experienced player that actually does while having no negative impact on the customer that is oblivious to said numbers.

2) It explains why there has never been a concrete answer. They couldn't admit that they are stacking the deck like that.

The main flaw in that theory is that they don't tip the stock shaft - only aftermarkets - which is a extremely small percentage of the sales. So the impact on the customer base is quite tiny.   And in addition the stock shaft (which the vast majority of people testing/demoing the club will use when comparing to other clubs) itself isn't really a very low launching shaft so those wont see that same bias.

Hmmm, good point. Maybe the same logic can be applied there though; make the aftermarket shafts appear/perform that much better than the stock offering in terms of spin numbers. They can't just be tipping shafts willy nilly for no reason and we all know that the only reason you do so is to stiffen the shaft and bring down launch and spin numbers.

I would think there would have to be two main groups of players coming in to buy a high end driver; the player that sees the marketing/sees it on TV and has to have the latest greatest driver that is going to turn him in to Jason Day and the player actually looking to get see the numbers and get fit. Player #1 is less likely to care about the stats so the stock shaft offerings are going to be fine more often than not. Player #2 is likely to be much more discerning and more interested in aftermarket shaft offerings and the sales guy should be able to pick up on this if he/she knows what they're doing. Player #1 was probably already going to buy the driver before he even walked in the store and Player #2 needs to see a numbers improvement to pull the trigger. What better way to accomplish that than to be sure your aftermarket options, regardless which one chosen, launch lower and spin less than the same options from another manufacturer? That is a pretty good scenario from a sales and marketing standpoint because no matter how "fair" you attempt to make a comparison with another driver, you have an inch of tipping to lower the launch and spin, something that Player #2 is going to love to see.

What other reason could they possibly have?
Posted Image M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX || Posted Image 915D3 8.5* Diamana Kai'li 80x
  Posted Image  XHot 3Deep Pro 14.5* Fujikura Motore VC 8.3 Tour Spec X
| | Posted Image SQ2 13* Diamana Blueboard 83x
Posted Image Tour Issue SQ2 17* Diamana Blueboard 103x || Posted Image SQ2 15* Diamana Blueboard 93x
Posted Image Anser 20* Aldila Rogue Black 110MSI 105h Tour-X || Posted Image V-Steel 21* Project X Rifle Satin 6.5
Posted Image MP-H4 3i 21* Project X PXi 7.0
Posted Image MP-H4 4i 24* Project X PXi 7.0

Posted Image MP-59 4i-PW 27*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Posted Image Mild Raw 8620 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
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Brunswick Precision FCM 7.3 SSx1
Posted Image Special 62* Black Oxide V-Grind Brunswick Precision FCM 7.3 SSx2
Posted Image Santa Fe Bullseye shaft
                                                             WITB Thread

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#57 mulliganman30

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 08:14 PM

O.K. So, I found somewhere still able to get non-upcharge shafts for the 2016 M2 Driver.  If I order any of the no upcharge shafts like the Rogue Silver, Kuro Kage Silver Tini, or the Speeder 661 Evolution TS and I don't want the shafts tipped 1 inch I need to specify "1 inch soft".  Is that correct?

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#58 mulliganman30

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 09:59 AM

View Postmulliganman30, on 22 January 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

O.K. So, I found somewhere still able to get non-upcharge shafts for the 2016 M2 Driver.  If I order any of the no upcharge shafts like the Rogue Silver, Kuro Kage Silver Tini, or the Speeder 661 Evolution TS and I don't want the shafts tipped 1 inch I need to specify "1 inch soft".  Is that correct?

Can anyone confirm this is what needs to be specified to avoid Taylormade tipping 1 inch?

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#59 Redjeep83

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 10:19 AM

I talked with TM recently about it, had them talk with R&D. I was told usually on most it's 1/2" but, it does vary some shaft to shaft, depending on manufacturer recommendations, you can also customize it through the custom shop.On fairway woods, they believe it's closer to a full inch vs driver. I was also told they do this based on their R&D that this provides more solid feel and control with their heads

I wouldn't get it soft stepped just because you heard they tip them an inch, thats kinda asking for trouble, might work out and might not. I would go based off hitting the fitting shaft they have. If you need that softstepped or hard stepped based off hitting it. Softstepping a driver shaft is iffy when you don't know how it will perform or what TM actually did to it and why imo

Edited by Redjeep83, 23 January 2017 - 10:20 AM.


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#60 t4t3r

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:11 AM

View PostRedjeep83, on 23 January 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

I talked with TM recently about it, had them talk with R&D. I was told usually on most it's 1/2" but, it does vary some shaft to shaft, depending on manufacturer recommendations, you can also customize it through the custom shop.On fairway woods, they believe it's closer to a full inch vs driver. I was also told they do this based on their R&D that this provides more solid feel and control with their heads

I wouldn't get it soft stepped just because you heard they tip them an inch, thats kinda asking for trouble, might work out and might not. I would go based off hitting the fitting shaft they have. If you need that softstepped or hard stepped based off hitting it. Softstepping a driver shaft is iffy when you don't know how it will perform or what TM actually did to it and why imo

Softstepping and hardstepping are terms for iron shaft installation, not graphite wood shafts, and they are not really relevant in this discussion. Tip trimming is not the same thing so please don't get those terms confused.

This tipping business with TM has been going on for so long and we still seem to be getting different answers from TM themselves. I'd say the best way to handle a custom order is to get the same shaft specs of what you were specifically fitted for. That may take some work as I wouldn't be at all surprised if the fitter doesn't even know exactly what the tipping is for that specific, individual shaft to which you were fitted. If you weren't custom fitted and are just ordering on your own, I would start with whatever tipping the manufacturer recommends for whatever you're ordering. Otherwise if have experience whether that be trial and error, custom fitting, etc and know how you want the shaft to play, then the tipping options provided by TM during the order process give you a good deal of freedom
to get you dialed into exactly what you want.

If all else fails read the litany of information Stuart G has posted on this subject and he will get you headed in the right direction. :)

Edited by t4t3r, 23 January 2017 - 11:13 AM.

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