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Better to hit it hard and learn to hit straight or vice versa?


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#31 BeerPerHole

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 11:59 PM

View Postleezer99, on 30 November 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

View Postdsales, on 29 November 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

Juniors I work with have won over 200 events in last 4 years. In kids, speed development is critical. In their development years, they have two speed windows. Train for speed first and foremost.  Especially since results in kids golf really doesnt matter in grand scheme of things.  

My experience illustrates that developing speed is more difficult outside of speeed windows.  I do have a number of very good speed programs but nothing has ever createdD the results that of speeed training from early age.

What sort of speed development can kids under 12 do?  I was under the impression that their fast twitch muscles don't even develop until puberty.
No, the window is around 11 for boys. Might be a little different for girls. It's strange, but it works.


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#32 thug the bunny

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 12:41 AM

I don't know, I have observed many shots by kids, including my stepson and daughter throughout their HS careers, and their results from overswinging are the exact same for adults - bad.
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#33 heavy_hitter

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:01 AM

View PostBeerPerHole, on 07 June 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 30 November 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

View Postdsales, on 29 November 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

Juniors I work with have won over 200 events in last 4 years. In kids, speed development is critical. In their development years, they have two speed windows. Train for speed first and foremost.  Especially since results in kids golf really doesnt matter in grand scheme of things.  

My experience illustrates that developing speed is more difficult outside of speeed windows.  I do have a number of very good speed programs but nothing has ever createdD the results that of speeed training from early age.

What sort of speed development can kids under 12 do?  I was under the impression that their fast twitch muscles don't even develop until puberty.
No, the window is around 11 for boys. Might be a little different for girls. It's strange, but it works.

Actually, according to TPI, the speed window for boy's is 7-9 and 13-16.  Girl's Speed Window is 6-8 and 11-13.

The Strength window for boy's is 12-18 month after PHV (Peak Height Velocity).  For girl's it is immediately after PHV or at the onset of menarche.

Endurance window for boy's and girl's is at the onset of PHV.

Skill Window for boy's is 9-12 and for Girl's it is 8-11.

Flexibility window for boy's and girl's is 6-10.

PHV for boy's usually occurs around 14 while for girl's PHV occurs around 12.

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#34 thug the bunny

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 12:34 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 08 June 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

View PostBeerPerHole, on 07 June 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 30 November 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

View Postdsales, on 29 November 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

Juniors I work with have won over 200 events in last 4 years. In kids, speed development is critical. In their development years, they have two speed windows. Train for speed first and foremost.  Especially since results in kids golf really doesnt matter in grand scheme of things.  

My experience illustrates that developing speed is more difficult outside of speeed windows.  I do have a number of very good speed programs but nothing has ever createdD the results that of speeed training from early age.

What sort of speed development can kids under 12 do?  I was under the impression that their fast twitch muscles don't even develop until puberty.
No, the window is around 11 for boys. Might be a little different for girls. It's strange, but it works.

Actually, according to TPI, the speed window for boy's is 7-9 and 13-16.  Girl's Speed Window is 6-8 and 11-13.

The Strength window for boy's is 12-18 month after PHV (Peak Height Velocity).  For girl's it is immediately after PHV or at the onset of menarche.

Endurance window for boy's and girl's is at the onset of PHV.

Skill Window for boy's is 9-12 and for Girl's it is 8-11.

Flexibility window for boy's and girl's is 6-10.

PHV for boy's usually occurs around 14 while for girl's PHV occurs around 12.

Who determined these data? To determine these data with any degree of confidence you would need to perform a long term (10 years at least) study using fairly large sample populations - at least 50 boys and 50 girls, taking trackman measurements maybe every other month from each subject for 10 years, about 10 swings for every club in the bag. (And you should track the same 100 kids through the entire 10 years - just measuring random kids and correlating their ages to the results introduces too many unknown variables.) So that's 14x10x6x10 = 1400 data points per subject which is 140,000 data points overall (where each data point actually consists of multiple data like distance, club speed, dispersion, etc). Then you would have to perform T tests, ANOVAs, and other statistical tests to determine which differences in the data are statistically significant. Did this really happen? Otherwise, these 'windows' are just subjective opinion. I find it highly suspect trying to fit kids into these 'windows' instead of simply making a determination in real time on an individual basis.
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#35 heavy_hitter

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 01:01 PM

View Postthug the bunny, on 08 June 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 08 June 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

View PostBeerPerHole, on 07 June 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 30 November 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

View Postdsales, on 29 November 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

Juniors I work with have won over 200 events in last 4 years. In kids, speed development is critical. In their development years, they have two speed windows. Train for speed first and foremost.  Especially since results in kids golf really doesnt matter in grand scheme of things.  

My experience illustrates that developing speed is more difficult outside of speeed windows.  I do have a number of very good speed programs but nothing has ever createdD the results that of speeed training from early age.

What sort of speed development can kids under 12 do?  I was under the impression that their fast twitch muscles don't even develop until puberty.
No, the window is around 11 for boys. Might be a little different for girls. It's strange, but it works.

Actually, according to TPI, the speed window for boy's is 7-9 and 13-16.  Girl's Speed Window is 6-8 and 11-13.

The Strength window for boy's is 12-18 month after PHV (Peak Height Velocity).  For girl's it is immediately after PHV or at the onset of menarche.

Endurance window for boy's and girl's is at the onset of PHV.

Skill Window for boy's is 9-12 and for Girl's it is 8-11.

Flexibility window for boy's and girl's is 6-10.

PHV for boy's usually occurs around 14 while for girl's PHV occurs around 12.

Who determined these data? To determine these data with any degree of confidence you would need to perform a long term (10 years at least) study using fairly large sample populations - at least 50 boys and 50 girls, taking trackman measurements maybe every other month from each subject for 10 years, about 10 swings for every club in the bag. (And you should track the same 100 kids through the entire 10 years - just measuring random kids and correlating their ages to the results introduces too many unknown variables.) So that's 14x10x6x10 = 1400 data points per subject which is 140,000 data points overall (where each data point actually consists of multiple data like distance, club speed, dispersion, etc). Then you would have to perform T tests, ANOVAs, and other statistical tests to determine which differences in the data are statistically significant. Did this really happen? Otherwise, these 'windows' are just subjective opinion. I find it highly suspect trying to fit kids into these 'windows' instead of simply making a determination in real time on an individual basis.

Dr. Greg Rose Titleist Performance Institute  

You would still have to make a determination in real time.  That is why these instructors have the parents of junior golfers measure their kids growth on a weekly basis.  It also isn't very hard to determine these growth windows like you are  suggesting.  These windows of motor and physical development in kids have been studied for decades.  There isn't much difference transferring from any other physical/athletic development to golf.

I wouldn't send my kid to an instructor that was not TPI certified.  These guys are money.

http://www.mytpi.com...parent_workshop
http://www.authorstr...ppt-powerpoint/

Edited by heavy_hitter, 08 June 2017 - 01:03 PM.


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#36 leezer99

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 01:09 PM

View Postthug the bunny, on 08 June 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 08 June 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

View PostBeerPerHole, on 07 June 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 30 November 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

View Postdsales, on 29 November 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

Juniors I work with have won over 200 events in last 4 years. In kids, speed development is critical. In their development years, they have two speed windows. Train for speed first and foremost.  Especially since results in kids golf really doesnt matter in grand scheme of things.  

My experience illustrates that developing speed is more difficult outside of speeed windows.  I do have a number of very good speed programs but nothing has ever createdD the results that of speeed training from early age.

What sort of speed development can kids under 12 do?  I was under the impression that their fast twitch muscles don't even develop until puberty.
No, the window is around 11 for boys. Might be a little different for girls. It's strange, but it works.

Actually, according to TPI, the speed window for boy's is 7-9 and 13-16.  Girl's Speed Window is 6-8 and 11-13.

The Strength window for boy's is 12-18 month after PHV (Peak Height Velocity).  For girl's it is immediately after PHV or at the onset of menarche.

Endurance window for boy's and girl's is at the onset of PHV.

Skill Window for boy's is 9-12 and for Girl's it is 8-11.

Flexibility window for boy's and girl's is 6-10.

PHV for boy's usually occurs around 14 while for girl's PHV occurs around 12.

Who determined these data? To determine these data with any degree of confidence you would need to perform a long term (10 years at least) study using fairly large sample populations - at least 50 boys and 50 girls, taking trackman measurements maybe every other month from each subject for 10 years, about 10 swings for every club in the bag. (And you should track the same 100 kids through the entire 10 years - just measuring random kids and correlating their ages to the results introduces too many unknown variables.) So that's 14x10x6x10 = 1400 data points per subject which is 140,000 data points overall (where each data point actually consists of multiple data like distance, club speed, dispersion, etc). Then you would have to perform T tests, ANOVAs, and other statistical tests to determine which differences in the data are statistically significant. Did this really happen? Otherwise, these 'windows' are just subjective opinion. I find it highly suspect trying to fit kids into these 'windows' instead of simply making a determination in real time on an individual basis.

http://athletics.ca/.../01/LTAD_EN.pdf

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#37 heavy_hitter

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 01:16 PM

As a side note.  I graduated from college in 1992 with a BS in physical education.  We took a kinesiology course that studied this stuff back then.  Not like I remember it though.  LOL.

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#38 AThompson_3

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:29 PM

For me the sooner a kid learns to be aggressive with their movements the better. Even if they can't control it just yet, it can be learned. It's much better to learn how to take something off than it is to have to flip a switch and not be able to find it. I wouldn't trust anyone who tells you otherwise.
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#39 PKennedy13

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 04:46 PM

Hit it straight first. Distance has no use if it's crooked and in the trees

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#40 leezer99

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 05:21 PM

View PostPKennedy13, on 23 June 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Hit it straight first. Distance has no use if it's crooked and in the trees

You're contradicting every swing coach out there right now.  Care to expound?


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#41 PKennedy13

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 05:35 PM

View Postleezer99, on 23 June 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

View PostPKennedy13, on 23 June 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Hit it straight first. Distance has no use if it's crooked and in the trees

You're contradicting every swing coach out there right now.  Care to expound?
I just don't see a point of a 12 year old hitting it say 250 and in the trees having to chip out where as a 12 year old that hits it 220 but straight. If you have always hit it straight you will always find a way to. Even if you then go and try to gain distance.

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#42 leezer99

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 05:44 PM

View PostPKennedy13, on 23 June 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 23 June 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

View PostPKennedy13, on 23 June 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Hit it straight first. Distance has no use if it's crooked and in the trees

You're contradicting every swing coach out there right now.  Care to expound?
I just don't see a point of a 12 year old hitting it say 250 and in the trees having to chip out where as a 12 year old that hits it 220 but straight. If you have always hit it straight you will always find a way to. Even if you then go and try to gain distance.

Speed windows in youth development have been defined already.  Just look at what TW did when he came on tour... hit 50% of the fairways but only had wedges in from the rough whereas his competition were hitting six or seven irons from the fairways. I think his track record kind of speaks to how distance off the tee matters more than accuracy.  Then there's this article from a week and half ago.  http://ftw.usatoday....leepers-preview

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#43 PKennedy13

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 05:47 PM

View Postleezer99, on 23 June 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:

View PostPKennedy13, on 23 June 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 23 June 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

View PostPKennedy13, on 23 June 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Hit it straight first. Distance has no use if it's crooked and in the trees

You're contradicting every swing coach out there right now.  Care to expound?
I just don't see a point of a 12 year old hitting it say 250 and in the trees having to chip out where as a 12 year old that hits it 220 but straight. If you have always hit it straight you will always find a way to. Even if you then go and try to gain distance.

Speed windows in youth development have been defined already.  Just look at what TW did when he came on tour... hit 50% of the fairways but only had wedges in from the rough whereas his competition were hitting six or seven irons from the fairways. I think his track record kind of speaks to how distance off the tee matters more than accuracy.  Then there's this article from a week and half ago.  http://ftw.usatoday....leepers-preview
you got me convinced. I said accuracy first because I used to hit it really short but could hit a blanket. I have learned to hit it further but I guess speed kills

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#44 thug the bunny

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 09:58 PM

View Postleezer99, on 23 June 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:

View PostPKennedy13, on 23 June 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 23 June 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

View PostPKennedy13, on 23 June 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Hit it straight first. Distance has no use if it's crooked and in the trees

You're contradicting every swing coach out there right now.  Care to expound?
I just don't see a point of a 12 year old hitting it say 250 and in the trees having to chip out where as a 12 year old that hits it 220 but straight. If you have always hit it straight you will always find a way to. Even if you then go and try to gain distance.

Speed windows in youth development have been defined already.  Just look at what TW did when he came on tour... hit 50% of the fairways but only had wedges in from the rough whereas his competition were hitting six or seven irons from the fairways. I think his track record kind of speaks to how distance off the tee matters more than accuracy.  Then there's this article from a week and half ago.  http://ftw.usatoday....leepers-preview

USA Today is not a source I would reference for....anything. Tiiger is an anomaly. I have seen over and over kids who swing out of their shoes and don't end up with PW out of the rough, they end up with punching 8i back to the fairway under trees. How do you explain pros starting at 50% with every new club they pull from the bag when they are on the range? Why don't they just go 100% from the start, and then dial in the accuracy? This goes against everything I have ever observed. I don't care about these 'windows'. It is easier to first capture the feel and sequencing and positions of good square contact, and then build up from there.

Where is Monte?
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#45 PKennedy13

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 10:02 PM

View Postthug the bunny, on 23 June 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 23 June 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:

View PostPKennedy13, on 23 June 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 23 June 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

View PostPKennedy13, on 23 June 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Hit it straight first. Distance has no use if it's crooked and in the trees

You're contradicting every swing coach out there right now.  Care to expound?
I just don't see a point of a 12 year old hitting it say 250 and in the trees having to chip out where as a 12 year old that hits it 220 but straight. If you have always hit it straight you will always find a way to. Even if you then go and try to gain distance.

Speed windows in youth development have been defined already.  Just look at what TW did when he came on tour... hit 50% of the fairways but only had wedges in from the rough whereas his competition were hitting six or seven irons from the fairways. I think his track record kind of speaks to how distance off the tee matters more than accuracy.  Then there's this article from a week and half ago.  http://ftw.usatoday....leepers-preview

USA Today is not a source I would reference for....anything. Tiiger is an anomaly. I have seen over and over kids who swing out of their shoes and don't end up with PW out of the rough, they end up with punching 8i back to the fairway under trees. How do you explain pros starting at 50% with every new club they pull from the bag when they are on the range? Why don't they just go 100% from the start, and then dial in the accuracy? This goes against everything I have ever observed. I don't care about these 'windows'. It is easier to first capture the feel and sequencing and positions of good square contact, and then build up from there.

Where is Monte?
thanks for backing me up. These are the reasons I was looking for


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#46 leezer99

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 05:55 AM

Kennedy - You do you then. We'll be on the green waiting for you.

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#47 thug the bunny

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 11:47 AM

View Postleezer99, on 23 June 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

View PostPKennedy13, on 23 June 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Hit it straight first. Distance has no use if it's crooked and in the trees

You're contradicting every swing coach out there right now.  Care to expound?

None of the swing coaches my stepdaughter has trained under. All the instructors I have ever known teach from the ground up and not from the top down (kids and adults alike). How the hell is any kid supposed to just start off ripping the ball? They wouldn't even be able to make contact. I don't understand..

Do you have kids?
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#48 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 04:18 PM

Once you have developed a game and a swing of your own, accuracy and consistency is the goal...if you learn speed first.

As a child, It's easier to learn how to smash it as hard as you can while being in balance and hitting the middle...then learn how to dial in a wedge.

Kids should not be taught mechanics too early.  Then you're teaching them your version of a perfect swing...which doesn't exist.  You can always knock off an excess movement or 2 later.

You can teach people to dial it down.  Hard to teach to speed up.
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#49 thug the bunny

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 10:02 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 24 June 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

Once you have developed a game and a swing of your own, accuracy and consistency is the goal...if you learn speed first.

As a child, It's easier to learn how to smash it as hard as you can while being in balance and hitting the middle...then learn how to dial in a wedge.

Kids should not be taught mechanics too early.  Then you're teaching them your version of a perfect swing...which doesn't exist.  You can always knock off an excess movement or 2 later.

You can teach people to dial it down.  Hard to teach to speed up.

OK, I'm going to bring this up with my stepdaughter's coach, interesting to see what he says..
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#50 leezer99

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 05:55 AM

View Postthug the bunny, on 24 June 2017 - 10:02 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 24 June 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

Once you have developed a game and a swing of your own, accuracy and consistency is the goal...if you learn speed first.

As a child, It's easier to learn how to smash it as hard as you can while being in balance and hitting the middle...then learn how to dial in a wedge.

Kids should not be taught mechanics too early.  Then you're teaching them your version of a perfect swing...which doesn't exist.  You can always knock off an excess movement or 2 later.

You can teach people to dial it down.  Hard to teach to speed up.

OK, I'm going to bring this up with my stepdaughter's coach, interesting to see what he says..

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