[ez1putt]

So in watching the replay of Tiger on 18 in the final round in Dubai, I noticed something pretty strange prior to his chip onto 18. If you pay attention, after he establishes his stance, evaluates his swing path options, then walks onto the green to find his landing spot. There is a front / ledge of some sort between his ball and the pin that he purposefully thumps the back/bottom of his wedge into. You can actually hear the thump on the audio He was clearly testing out the firmness of the green and that particular spot to see if he needed to hit it there or carry that spot. I thought it was illegal to test the firmness of the green?

Thoughts?

[bunter101]

correct. but........

[Veritas]

ez1putt, on Feb 3 2008, 06:33 PM, said:

So in watching the replay of Tiger on 18 in the final round in Dubai, I noticed something pretty strange prior to his chip onto 18. If you pay attention, after he establishes his stance, evaluates his swing path options, then walks onto the green to find his landing spot. There is a front / ledge of some sort between his ball and the pin that he purposefully thumps the back/bottom of his wedge into. You can actually hear the thump on the audio He was clearly testing out the firmness of the green and that particular spot to see if he needed to hit it there or carry that spot. I thought it was illegal to test the firmness of the green?

Thoughts?

and thumpgate begins...

[temewarrior]

haha yep. It could never be proven. If that was in fact what he was doing.......

we will never know and it doesn't matter anyways. He hit a horrible shot anyways ha-ha. Not that I'm saying it's ok to cheat if you are going to hit a crappy shot

[Pinehurst1999]

I see guys do it all the time as a method of smoothing out small bumps in your line.

[temewarrior]

Ya but your not allowed to do that until your ball is on the green....

Your not allowed to fix ball marks on the green until your ball comes to rest on it.

[Pat_Irish]

didnt see it, dont need to be proved, if it was on the line, 2 shot penalty, many have been nailed before,,,remember Wei,s first outing as a pro?

[bstone boy]

exactly!

[kevcarter]

Quote

Your not allowed to fix ball marks on the green until your ball comes to rest on it.

Sorry dude, that is not correct.

16-1c

c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player's ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.

Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.

Kevin

[Pat_Irish]

Correct Kevin, but thumping down is not considered reparing, and you are expected to confirm the damage with your marker prior to reparing

[kevcarter]

Pat,

I was only responding to the incorrect post. Just trying to avoid misconceptions.

On the ruling in the threads title... I believe you had to be there and discuss it with Mr. Woods. I believe it could have been as simple as dropping the head of his wedge, I did not see it. I believe Mr. Woods WOULD NEVER knowingly violate a rule of golf. We have officials to watch these things and I don't believe in getting involved in rulings from TV.

Kevin

[Pat_Irish]

Kevin

Didnt see it myself, so i cant comment on reality. it sonds a bit iffy,

Wish i could have a video from a tour event in china back in nov 2006,, involving a bunker, where something funny happened, but guess thast golf,,and i did feel sorry for Wei,,,she was setup i feel

[Pat_Irish]

Kevin

Didnt see it myself, so i cant comment on reality. it sonds a bit iffy,

Wish i could have a video from a tour event in china back in nov 2006,, involving a bunker, where something funny happened, but guess thast golf,,and i did feel sorry for Wei,,,she was setup i feel

[bstone boy]

Wrong "dude"

He can only repair those if he is putting. This rule applies to people putting. You are not allowed to move things or press things down in front of your golf ball unless you are PUTTING....

hence this saying "touching the line of a PUTT", not a golf shot/swing. I'm pretty sure "Mr. Woods" didn't putt that ball.





Rules of Golf - Rule 16: The Putting Green
From USGA

16-1. General
• a. Touching Line of Putt
The line of putt must not be touched except:

(i) the player may remove loose impediments, provided he does not press anything down;
(ii) the player may place the club in front of the ball when addressing it, provided he does not press anything down;
(iii) in measuring — Rule 18-6;
(iv) in lifting the ball — Rule 16-1b;
(v) in pressing down a ball-marker;
(vi) in repairing old hole plugs or ball marks on the putting green — Rule 16-1c; and
(vii) in removing movable obstructions — Rule 24-1.

(Indicating line for putting on putting green — see Rule 8-2b.)



Lifting Ball
A ball on the putting green may be lifted and, if desired, cleaned. The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted and the ball must be replaced (See Rule 20-1). • c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage
The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player's ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.

[kevcarter]

What part of the rule book don't you understand?

Rule 16-1c

c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player's ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.

Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.

Kevin

[Pat_Irish]

actually i believe you must be on the putting surface as well,,,putting from off the green has the same rules as chipping etc refered to as "through the green"

[Pat_Irish]

you answered the question Kevin

[kevcarter]

Quote

actually i believe you must be on the putting surface as well,,,putting from off the green has the same rules as chipping etc refered to as "through the green"

Sorry guys, I am quoting directly from the rule book. Am I missing something here?

Kevin

[bstone boy]

Your the one not understanding Kev

[bstone boy]

I took a class in a golf college on the rules of golf and the verbage in the rule book is often misunderstood.

I'm positive on this rule because it came up specifically in the class. The rules officials in golf tournaments have to attend these classes to even be considered for the tournament.

There have been many instances where players have been penalized for this. That is why you never see players fixing ball marks and things until they are "putting" the ball.

[kevcarter]

What am I not understanding? Just trying to keep things straight. Did you look at my post to see what part of your quoted text I was responding to? What am I missing? I'm not trying to be a jerk, just want to be sure correct information is put forth here. I believe the rule I posted is pretty self explanatory!

Kevin

[kevcarter]

I've been attending rules workshops since you were born. I've also attended the advanced workshops and made the top score classification with the USGA. There are hundreds of officials better than me, but I can certainly hold my own here. I want to know how the bolded portion of my post can possibly be mis-read. If you can't read black and white, I give up.

Kevin

[Irridium]

No Point citing USGA Rules, It was a EURO Event with Euro Rules

[bstone boy]

it's ok. I don't think any of us are trying to be jerks. It's just coming across like that. You just need to read the entire rule. Not just the part that you are posting.

Look at the beginning of the rule. This rule is referring to "the line of putt"

so if you are doing anything besides putting....this rule does not apply. Tiger was not putting. So this rule is not the right ruling for the situation.

If tiger was putting then you would be correct.

Ok enough time on this post. My wife wants the comp. and I'm missing the bowl game and dinner.

later

[kevcarter]

With the exception of the availability of a couple of local rules, the USGA and R&A rules are now identical.

Kevin

[bstone boy]

since I was born?? wow...how do you even know how old I am??

unreal

I'm out.

[Pat_Irish]

Maybe we are all in agreement and getting mixed up, but i am open to correction but many players who actually overshoot the green repair plug marks on their way ascross the green, But i also know that banging a club and or dropping a club on you line can be testing, in the last few months i actually saw a guy being pulled for practising a chip forward of where his ball lay, as it was deemed he had not improved his line he was given the ok ( it was about 5 yards ahead) But he was brought out to re-enact what he had done

[kevcarter]

c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player's ball lies on the putting green.

How can you possibly say this does not apply to when a ball mark can be fixed?

Kevin

[Pat_Irish]

Ok I am lost, if i putt out of a bunker are the rules different from if i use a wedge?,,Rules of golf cover 2 things as i understand through the green and on the green,,wrong?,,,nothing to do with the type of stroke used ie,,putting

[kevcarter]

Quote

Ok I am lost, if i putt out of a bunker are the rules different from if i use a wedge?,,Rules of golf cover 2 things as i understand through the green and on the green,,wrong?,,,nothing to do with the type of stroke used ie,,putting

You are NOT lost at all. Someone else is confused and making you lose track of what you know is right.

Kevin

[tbhuskie8]

Nothing was said during the broadcast so why does all this matter? He won. It obviously wasn't viewed as a big deal by anyone else.

[ericld]

Was he thumping the green or some fairway area leading up? He is more than welcome to thump the fairway right up to the green.

When it becomes the green which is a surface that the ball will roll across, modifying and repairing is ruled upon in various ways.

[scubus]

I haven't had any classes, so I may be totally in correct, but...

Rule 16 in total is about the putting surface.

Rule 16 - 1a is about the line of the putt.

Rule 16 - 1c discusses repairing ball marks etc.

Both subsections fall under 16 because they discuss the green; however, each is a different rule and they don't have anything to do with each other. bstone boy is referencing subsection "a" and applying it to subsequent subsections. That is incorrect as I understand things. KevCarter is correct, section "c" discusses the repair of ball marks etc. on the green and that rule is applied without regard to whether the player is putting or not. You may repair ball marks anytime, anywhere.

By the way, rule 16-1d specifically mentions testing the green by "rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface of the green." You may not drag your putter along the surface to test the grain, no mention of tapping, so Tiger failed to break the rule. In addition, if the rule is read the way bstone boy suggests, testing the green would be acceptable as long as you did not intend to putt on your next stroke. I doubt that is correct.

[Skaffa77]

ericld, on Feb 3 2008, 09:50 PM, said:

Was he thumping the green or some fairway area leading up? He is more than welcome to thump the fairway right up to the green.

When it becomes the green which is a surface that the ball will roll across, modifying and repairing is ruled upon in various ways.

Since my memory isn't quite what it used to be, can someone confirm where he tapped...green or fairway?

I know the replay is on right now, but I won't be able to watch. If he did thump the green, might be worth writing in to a news organization to see what the ruling might be? Tournament is over so he's still the winner, but for clarification, I'd be interested to hear officially how the R&A/USGA would rule on it...

[kevcarter]

Rule 16

a. Touching Line of Putt

The line of putt must not be touched except:

(i) the player may remove loose impediments, provided he does not press anything down;
(ii) he player may place the club in front of the ball when addressing it, provided he does not press anything down;
(iii) in measuring - Rule 18-6;
(iv) in lifting or replacing the ball - Rule 16-1b;
(v) in pressing down a ball-marker;
(vi) in repairing old hole plugs or ball marks on the putting green - Rule 16-1c; and
(vii) in removing movable obstructions - Rule 24-1.

(Indicating line for putting on putting green - see Rule 8-2b.)

b. Lifting and Cleaning Ball

A ball on the putting green may be lifted and, if desired, cleaned. The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted, and the ball must be replaced (see Rule 20-1).

c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player's ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.

Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.

d. Testing Surface

During the stipulated round, a player must not test the surface of any putting green by rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface.

Exception: Between the play of two holes, a player may test the surface of any practice putting green and the putting green of the hole last played, unless the Committee has prohibited such action (see Note 2 to Rule 7-2).

e. Standing Astride or on Line of Putt

The player must not make a stroke on the putting green from a stance astride, or with either foot touching, the line of putt or an extension of that line behind the ball.

Exception: There is no penalty if the stance is inadvertently taken on or astride the line of putt (or an extension of that line behind the ball) or is taken to avoid standing on another player's line of putt or prospective line of putt.

f. Making Stroke While Another Ball in Motion

The player must not make a stroke while another ball is in motion after a stroke from the putting green, except that if a player does so, there is no penalty if it was his turn to play.

(Lifting ball assisting or interfering with play while another ball in motion - see Rule 22.)

Penalty for Breach of Rule 16-1:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

(Position of caddie or partner - see Rule 14-2.)
(Wrong putting green - see Rule 25-3.)

16-2. Ball Overhanging Hole

When any part of the ball overhangs the lip of the hole, the player is allowed enough time to reach the hole without unreasonable delay and an additional ten seconds to determine whether the ball is at rest. If by then the ball has not fallen into the hole, it is deemed to be at rest. If the ball subsequently falls into the hole, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke and must add a penalty stroke to his score for the hole; otherwise, there is no penalty under this Rule.

(Undue delay - see Rule 6-7.)

===============================================

16-1a describes the line of putt. Nothing there contradicts 16-1c

Again, here is 16-1c

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player's ball lies on the putting green.

Kevin

[Skaffa77]

Skaffa77, on Feb 3 2008, 10:27 PM, said:

ericld, on Feb 3 2008, 09:50 PM, said:

Was he thumping the green or some fairway area leading up? He is more than welcome to thump the fairway right up to the green.

When it becomes the green which is a surface that the ball will roll across, modifying and repairing is ruled upon in various ways.

Since my memory isn't quite what it used to be, can someone confirm where he tapped...green or fairway?

I know the replay is on right now, but I won't be able to watch. If he did thump the green, might be worth writing in to a news organization to see what the ruling might be? Tournament is over so he's still the winner, but for clarification, I'd be interested to hear officially how the R&A/USGA would rule on it...

Alright...well I did get to see the rebroadcast and his wedge thumped the fringe...not the green. Might not have been the best angle to see it, but from what I saw, it was the fringe...

Also just for illustration purposes...when his wedge hit the ground, he was twirling the club in his hand and loosened the slack on it when it hit the ground...much like if you were walking up to your tee ball twirling your driver and hitting it on the ground. Definitely did not "seem" to be anything intended to test the firmness of the surface.

Regardless...if I read the other posts correctly and he did hit the fringe with the wedge, it would not be an infraction, correct?

[ericld]

I just watched the re-run and he thumps the fringe.

The fringe is NOT the putting surface. It is NOT the green. What he did was the equivalent of thumping the fairway with an iron as you walk.

[WRXJIM]

Even if he was on the green you could hardly call it testing...

He twirls the club, and lets it hit the deck. ONCE... All while he is walking towards the hole...

You have to be one desperate Nit Picker (sore loser) to try and pull someone up on that...

Now. if he had done it a couple of times as he approached the hole you could question his motives... but certainly not once...

Im NOT saying that is/is not what he was trying to do? as I dont know what he was thinking, but he did it in such a manner that it would always be a totally subjective argument. (clever? Experience? Both most likely )

Interesting topic though Im still not sure whos right, ha ha But it has been a good read

I wish I was good enough that it made a differnce to me ha ha

[Pat_Irish]

Actually its not nit-picking or anything,its just a very intresting discussion point, its not about TW in reality, its more "rules" related, Consider this, YOU are over the green, 10 yards chipping back and right where you want to land the ball on the fringe, there is a large weed growing, to solve that little problem you go forward and take a "heavy pratice swing, and you now have a nice clear little area to try to drop the ball onto,,,so have you infringed the rules?, My opinion is yes you have, you improved your line to the hole

[kevcarter]

Pat_Irish, on Feb 4 2008, 12:05 PM, said:

Actually its not nit-picking or anything,its just a very intresting discussion point, its not about TW in reality, its more "rules" related, Consider this, YOU are over the green, 10 yards chipping back and right where you want to land the ball on the fringe, there is a large weed growing, to solve that little problem you go forward and take a "heavy pratice swing, and you now have a nice clear little area to try to drop the ball onto,,,so have you infringed the rules?, My opinion is yes you have, you improved your line to the hole

Pat,

I certainly see your point. Definitely a gray area. My opinion is that there needs to be intent, or be obvious that the area of play was improved. We will never know about the intent, but it didn't look to me as though the line of play was improved. Clearly just a guess as we were not there... I also agree, that like just about anything rules related, this has been a very interesting topic of discussion!

Kevin