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What's wrong with Ben Hogan's Five Lessons?


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#1 FlyFish

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 03:24 PM

People commonly question what the shortcomings of Ben Hogan's Five Lessons are.

I think that Ben pretty much got it right with Five Lessons.

Although the description of the grip was a great attempt, the actual implementation puts the grip too much in the palm of the left hand.  This will spell disaster for many slicers.

The image of binding the arms together has been called into question.  I interpret this visualization as what modern teachers refer to as "connection."  The "headcover drill" is pretty much the same thing, is it not?

His swing has been characterized as flat, but Hogan himself says in Five Lessons that his shallow plane is a product of his short height.  Taller players will naturally have a steeper plane.

Some "gurus" of late have claimed that Ben Hogan centered his weight over his left leg on the backswing.  I believe this to be patently false as photos clearly show him lifting up his left heel during the backswing.  He also says as much that it is OK to lift the left heel off of the ground in Five Lessons.

I am on the fence about his description of the convex left wrist at impact though.  I think that this angle varies by player.

His description of the stance (opening for shorter clubs) is right on the money, IMO, but I would have liked him to talk more about weight distribution as well.

Any thoughts?

Edited by FlyFish, 16 January 2008 - 03:27 PM.


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#2 Dariusz J.

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 04:50 PM

Well, "5 Lessons" is my favourite golf instruction book. Mr.Hogan should make a remark, though, "for better golfers" on the cover. It may be disastrous for those who never feared a hook or never were able to hit the ball from the inside.

As per your thoughts, I agree with most of them, except:

Some "gurus" of late have claimed that Ben Hogan centered his weight over his left leg on the backswing. I believe this to be patently false as photos clearly show him lifting up his left heel during the backswing. He also says as much that it is OK to lift the left heel off of the ground in Five Lessons.

Hogan transferred his weight to left side during the second part of the downswing. This move enabled him to unwind the body freely and strongly. The fact that his left heel lifted a bit in some swings does not exclude having the majority of the weight at this leg. The weight was located at the inside part of his balls and toes. He could "crush a can" with his heel at the start of the downswing and feel it much better when transferring the rest of his body weight to the heel of his left foot and swing the whole body to the left.

Cheers

#3 slicefixer

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 05:22 PM

I've probably typed as much about Mr. Hogan and 5 Lesson's as anyone on this site.........numerous things in the book are described in a manner that does NOT represent what he actually did in reality..........BUT, he was writing the book from "feel" and "images" of his swing, etc. so I've always given him a HUGE "pass" in regards to the "contradictions"/"INaccurarcies," etc.  I can tell you that I've spent a LOT of time trying to figure out WHAT he did from WHAT he THOUGHT he did.........as have a bunch of others............the "elastic stretch" image is a GREAT example of ONE thing I spent a LOT of time trying to "translate".........figured it out too and that's why all of "my" players who I've worked with for any substantial amount of time will have a downswing that exhibits a lot of "Hogan"........

As for the weight issue........this is EASY.........with an iron, or any shot he wanted to "compress," I have NO doubt that his weight was 'on his left side" at the top of his backswing.........BUT, he DID TRANSFER weight to the right......example, IF he started with 70% favoring the left side at address I'll GUARANTEE you that he had LESS weight "left" at the top of his backswing........as an example, starts with 70% and at the top 57% (numbers I'm using for examples as I have no way of definitively telling the exact amounts)..........Anyway, the argument should be whether he TRANSFERRED weight to his right in his backswing (which he did) OR whether he "stacked and tilted" as SOME (who are WRONG) have suggested......btw, with a driver I have NO doubt that his weight favored his RIGHT side at the top........in his later years he actually had a bit of "sway-load" in his backswing and his head DID move to the right..........

Edited by slicefixer, 16 January 2008 - 05:29 PM.


#4 Dariusz J.

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 05:59 PM

View Postslicefixer, on Jan 16 2008, 05:22 PM, said:

As for the weight issue........this is EASY.........with an iron, or any shot he wanted to "compress," I have NO doubt that his weight was 'on his left side" at the top of his backswing.........BUT, he DID TRANSFER weight to the right......example, IF he started with 70% favoring the left side at address I'll GUARANTEE you that he had LESS weight "left" at the top of his backswing........as an example, starts with 70% and at the top 57% (numbers I'm using for examples as I have no way of definitively telling the exact amounts)..........

Well, I beg to differ in this point (on irons only and in a post-accident swing only). IMHO, he transferred weight to the left leg at the end of the backswing and at the top he had more weight on the left than he had at address. Look at those photos:

1. Address



weight distribution: say, 55% left side / 45 % right side

2. Halfway back



weight distribution: say, 45% left side / 55 % right side

3. Top



weight distribution: say, 65% left side / 35 % right side

4. Halfway down



weight distribution: say, 85% left side / 25 % right side

5. Impact



weight distribution: say, 95% left side / 5 % right side


I'd love to hear your comments, SliceFixer. I will gladly change my point of view if you convince me with your quality arguments.


Cheers

#5 slicefixer

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 06:14 PM

EASY Darius...........watch his HEAD.......IF it's moving FORWARD then weight IS transferring.......Mr. Hogan's HEAD NEVER worked backwards (as almost ALL S&T'rs do, with the driver anyway)......from the top it ALWAYS worked forwards to varying degrees depending on the club/shot/ERA........ from the top his head ALWAYS went forward a bit (indicating weight shift/transferrance), once again depending on the club/shot/ERA........watch the HEAD........it's placement relative to the body, ball, etc. at all times during the swing........how/where/why it "moves," etc........the HEAD (along with the position of the left hp socket compared to the left heel)  "tells MOST of the "story"......... :)


Sorry Darius, hell I didn't read your post carefully enough nor did I do a very good job of explaining myself above..........your correct in your post above with ONE "caveat"......the "winding" of the core to the right TRANSFERS weight to the right, was it enough to offset what transferred left in the "cg shift?" I dunno'......Anyway, what I posted a coupla' post up above IS more of a description of MY way of creating Mr. Hogan's backswing (ending up at the top where Mr. Hogan was AFTER the "cg shift" etc.)........I do NOT believe in the "high right hip" as it DOES necessitate the mid backswing "CG shift" and neither are essential to creating similar top of the backswing "positioning" so as to create a similar "downswing" as  Mr. Hogan's ......(btw, as I'm sure you already know, what you "see" in his pivot above (CG shift) varied GREATLY during his career)  In summary, what I've tried to do is figure out a way to "construct" the essence of Mr. Hogan's swing (the "good stuff") without the "high right hip" and "cg shift," BOTH of which I consider to be TOTALLY UNnecessary to accomplish this goal......... :(

I'll leave the above part of this post as it is pretty good advice for studying video footage........."what the weight is doing" ...etc.

Edited by slicefixer, 16 January 2008 - 08:12 PM.


#6 OldSkoolTexan

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 06:21 PM

Dude, you need a degree and diagrams to go with some of the analysis by slicefixer, but I would expect nothing less from a fellow Texan. :)  lol  

Ben Hogan's Five Lessons was the only instructor I had.   I think too many people gloss over the fundamentals and try to do a tour pro style analysis of their, usually inconsistent, golf swing.  Five Lessons rules!!

I enjoy watching Tour Pros with a similar build , or atleast height, as myself.  It gives you a good visualization of the move you should make.  I cant make a pure Ben Hogan move at 6'2", but I can make an Norman, Els or Tiger move.  The Norman and Els moves being so natural and non-technical thus feeling more comfortable and "easy".

Im no teaching pro be easy with the critique slicefixer. :(

#7 slicefixer

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 06:36 PM

View PostOldSkoolTexan, on Jan 16 2008, 07:21 PM, said:

Dude, you need a degree and diagrams to go with some of the analysis by slicefixer, but I would expect nothing less from a fellow Texan. :)  lol  

Ben Hogan's Five Lessons was the only instructor I had.   I think too many people gloss over the fundamentals and try to do a tour pro style analysis of their, usually inconsistent, golf swing.  Five Lessons rules!!

I enjoy watching Tour Pros with a similar build , or atleast height, as myself.  It gives you a good visualization of the move you should make.  I cant make a pure Ben Hogan move at 6'2", but I can make an Norman, Els or Tiger move.  The Norman and Els moves being so natural and non-technical thus feeling more comfortable and "easy".

Im no teaching pro be easy with the critique slicefixer. :(



You can LEARN from Mr. Hogan's swing and input a great deal of it into YOUR swing......doesn't matter if your 5'2" or 6' 8".......kicker is the CLUBS have to fit you properly so that your spine isn't tilted "over" too much........THAT does make it very difficult to "emulate"/"ingrain" the "essence" of his golf swing..........."rounded"......."rotational"........."circular"........."left"........etc.

#8 OldSkoolTexan

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 06:48 PM

View Postslicefixer, on Jan 16 2008, 05:36 PM, said:

View PostOldSkoolTexan, on Jan 16 2008, 07:21 PM, said:

Dude, you need a degree and diagrams to go with some of the analysis by slicefixer, but I would expect nothing less from a fellow Texan. :)  lol  

Ben Hogan's Five Lessons was the only instructor I had.   I think too many people gloss over the fundamentals and try to do a tour pro style analysis of their, usually inconsistent, golf swing.  Five Lessons rules!!

I enjoy watching Tour Pros with a similar build , or atleast height, as myself.  It gives you a good visualization of the move you should make.  I cant make a pure Ben Hogan move at 6'2", but I can make an Norman, Els or Tiger move.  The Norman and Els moves being so natural and non-technical thus feeling more comfortable and "easy".

Im no teaching pro be easy with the critique slicefixer. :(



You can LEARN from Mr. Hogan's swing and input a great deal of it into YOUR swing......doesn't matter if your 5'2" or 6' 8".......kicker is the CLUBS have to fit you properly so that your spine isn't tilted "over" too much........THAT does make it very difficult to "emulate"/"ingrain" the "essence" of his golf swing..........."rounded"......."rotational"........."circular"........."left"........etc.

True.  I have played standard lie for so long, but Im considering 1up.  Im going to move the ball back just a shade and see how that goes before I bend anything up.  I actually picked up a Hogan Apex gap wedge that is 2up, so I will see how that works on the course since its already bent. :stinker:

Where do you teach?  Up in Dallas or here in Houston?

#9 slicefixer

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 08:11 PM

View PostOldSkoolTexan, on Jan 16 2008, 07:48 PM, said:

View Postslicefixer, on Jan 16 2008, 05:36 PM, said:

View PostOldSkoolTexan, on Jan 16 2008, 07:21 PM, said:

Dude, you need a degree and diagrams to go with some of the analysis by slicefixer, but I would expect nothing less from a fellow Texan. :)  lol  

Ben Hogan's Five Lessons was the only instructor I had.   I think too many people gloss over the fundamentals and try to do a tour pro style analysis of their, usually inconsistent, golf swing.  Five Lessons rules!!

I enjoy watching Tour Pros with a similar build , or atleast height, as myself.  It gives you a good visualization of the move you should make.  I cant make a pure Ben Hogan move at 6'2", but I can make an Norman, Els or Tiger move.  The Norman and Els moves being so natural and non-technical thus feeling more comfortable and "easy".

Im no teaching pro be easy with the critique slicefixer. :(



You can LEARN from Mr. Hogan's swing and input a great deal of it into YOUR swing......doesn't matter if your 5'2" or 6' 8".......kicker is the CLUBS have to fit you properly so that your spine isn't tilted "over" too much........THAT does make it very difficult to "emulate"/"ingrain" the "essence" of his golf swing..........."rounded"......."rotational"........."circular"........."left"........etc.

True.  I have played standard lie for so long, but Im considering 1up.  Im going to move the ball back just a shade and see how that goes before I bend anything up.  I actually picked up a Hogan Apex gap wedge that is 2up, so I will see how that works on the course since its already bent. :stinker:

Where do you teach?  Up in Dallas or here in Houston?


Just N of "BF Egypt".......Texarkana.........:stinker:

#10 Rod

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 11:07 PM

Maybe Im wrong, but I think his lesson on the grip is a must read for any golfer.

In his weight transfer, to me it looks as if he kinda releases his left knee and falls forward slightly to initiate it.  Check out the Hogan Grid video on utube.


Sort of off topic...is it me or did AJ Bonar steal Hogan's "supination" move and rename it his own "magic move"??


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#11 OldSkoolTexan

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 11:35 PM

View PostRod, on Jan 16 2008, 10:07 PM, said:

Maybe Im wrong, but I think his lesson on the grip is a must read for any golfer.

In his weight transfer, to me it looks as if he kinda releases his left knee and falls forward slightly to initiate it. Check out the Hogan Grid video on utube.


Sort of off topic...is it me or did AJ Bonar steal Hogan's "supination" move and rename it his own "magic move"??


No doubt!  Alot of "golfers" underestimate the value of solid fundamentals: grip, stance, posture, ball position.  I personally dont get all deep into the technical analysis of weight shifting.  If anything, I keep it on my insoles and left it shift naturally as I swing.  Then again , Im definitely no Hogan.  LOL

That heavy lag/loading is something that every golfer can make use of though for sure.  Its a power move definitely....

#12 Tigersworld

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 01:11 AM

View PostDariusz J., on Jan 16 2008, 02:59 PM, said:

3. Top

Attachment th_Hogan_back_top.jpg

weight distribution: say, 65% left side / 35 % right side


I'd love to hear your comments, SliceFixer. I will gladly change my point of view if you convince me with your quality arguments.


Cheers

Dariusz

I would agree on 80% of your assessment only switch the numbers on #3 to 40% left side/ 60% right side. I believe what you are interpreting as weight shift is the very beginning off the transition and is incomplete rotation very hard to see in stills.

JuNiOR



#13 slicefixer

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 02:10 AM

View PostTigersworld, on Jan 17 2008, 02:11 AM, said:

View PostDariusz J., on Jan 16 2008, 02:59 PM, said:

3. Top

Attachment th_Hogan_back_top.jpg

weight distribution: say, 65% left side / 35 % right side


I'd love to hear your comments, SliceFixer. I will gladly change my point of view if you convince me with your quality arguments.


Cheers

Dariusz

I would agree on 80% of your assessment only switch the numbers on #3 to 40% left side/ 60% right side. I believe what you are interpreting as weight shift is the very beginning off the transition and is incomplete rotation very hard to see in stills.

JuNiOR

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jiTUWIUEfdg&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jiTUWIUEfdg&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


That's a driver and he was 60 right 40 left or thereabouts....with an iron he most probably did favor his left side a bit at the top....... as for the "cg shift," it was a necessity to overcome the "high right hip" set up (thorasic on a tilt away from the target - lumbar vertical.....NOT "in line")........"cg shift" got the lumbar/thorasic "in line" and on a "tilt" away from the target.......another result of the "cg shift" was the left hip moved toward the left heel so that at the top of his backswing he needed VERY little lateral motion to reach his left side/left pivot point/left leg and could "unwind" as hard as he liked.......

Edited by slicefixer, 17 January 2008 - 02:17 AM.


#14 Dariusz J.

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 07:04 AM

View Postslicefixer, on Jan 16 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

In summary, what I've tried to do is figure out a way to "construct" the essence of Mr. Hogan's swing (the "good stuff") without the "high right hip" and "cg shift," BOTH of which I consider to be TOTALLY UNnecessary to accomplish this goal......... :)

This sentence is very important ! I believe this question may be also important: don't you think that both "unnecessary" things, i.e. high right hip and CoG shift were only compensations for each other ?
Hogan was reported to say that he hated "the shift"...thus, you may be dead right (as usually...;-)

Cheers

#15 hoganfan924

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 09:48 AM

View PostDariusz J., on Jan 17 2008, 07:04 AM, said:

View Postslicefixer, on Jan 16 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

In summary, what I've tried to do is figure out a way to "construct" the essence of Mr. Hogan's swing (the "good stuff") without the "high right hip" and "cg shift," BOTH of which I consider to be TOTALLY UNnecessary to accomplish this goal......... :)

This sentence is very important ! I believe this question may be also important: don't you think that both "unnecessary" things, i.e. high right hip and CoG shift were only compensations for each other ?
Hogan was reported to say that he hated "the shift"...thus, you may be dead right (as usually...;-)

Cheers

Dariusz,

Read the entire thread started by "Lake" on VJ Trolio's book.  It's all there.  Here you go:

http://www.golfwrx.c...howtopic=122814

Edited by hoganfan924, 17 January 2008 - 10:04 AM.


#16 Dariusz J.

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 11:14 AM

Thanks, HoganFan. It was a good read.

So, SliceFixer is certain that the shift had to be done, and the culprit was his right hip going to a too-high position during the second phase of backswing.
Very well then, we have now to consider if his right hip position was deliberate (in such a situation the theory of compensations falls and Mr.Trolio is right - not that this was The Secret, but in the Newtonian 2nd Law sense) or it was just in Hogan's golf DNA and The Maestro had to react to this by making a necessary compensation.

BTW, I've watched my rear view OP swings and indeed, my right hip isn't even close to Hogan's position. It's higher than the left but definitely lower. I can't resist the feeling that Trolio wants to have (in his YouTube swing) his rear hip so high as Hogan had BY FORCE. The result is then different, as many of you pointed out in the other thread.
What is funny, the right hip may go so high when you bend left leg in the knee (to the front or to the inside) and straighten the left leg a lot with a huge hip turn. Mr.Hogan neither straightened his rear leg fully, nor his hip turn was enormous - could be something wrong with his pelvis after the accident ?


Cheers

Edited by Dariusz J., 17 January 2008 - 11:15 AM.


#17 slicefixer

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 02:29 PM

View PostDariusz J., on Jan 17 2008, 08:04 AM, said:

View Postslicefixer, on Jan 16 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

In summary, what I've tried to do is figure out a way to "construct" the essence of Mr. Hogan's swing (the "good stuff") without the "high right hip" and "cg shift," BOTH of which I consider to be TOTALLY UNnecessary to accomplish this goal......... :clapping:

This sentence is very important ! I believe this question may be also important: don't you think that both "unnecessary" things, i.e. high right hip and CoG shift were only compensations for each other ?
Hogan was reported to say that he hated "the shift"...thus, you may be dead right (as usually...;-)

Cheers


Oh yes, DEFINITELY......have stated just that on numerous occasions on here........there is NO question in MY mind that is exactly what the "cg shift" is.........simply a  "compensation"......in this case it's "a move/motion designed to OVERCOME poor set up angles"........IMOP..... :cheesy:

#18 slicefixer

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 02:35 PM

View PostDariusz J., on Jan 17 2008, 12:14 PM, said:

Thanks, HoganFan. It was a good read.

So, SliceFixer is certain that the shift had to be done, and the culprit was his right hip going to a too-high position during the second phase of backswing.
Very well then, we have now to consider if his right hip position was deliberate (in such a situation the theory of compensations falls and Mr.Trolio is right - not that this was The Secret, but in the Newtonian 2nd Law sense) or it was just in Hogan's golf DNA and The Maestro had to react to this by making a necessary compensation.

BTW, I've watched my rear view OP swings and indeed, my right hip isn't even close to Hogan's position. It's higher than the left but definitely lower. I can't resist the feeling that Trolio wants to have (in his YouTube swing) his rear hip so high as Hogan had BY FORCE. The result is then different, as many of you pointed out in the other thread.
What is funny, the right hip may go so high when you bend left leg in the knee (to the front or to the inside) and straighten the left leg a lot with a huge hip turn. Mr.Hogan neither straightened his rear leg fully, nor his hip turn was enormous - could be something wrong with his pelvis after the accident ?


Cheers


No, it's a result of the "high right hip" at SET UP.......and the "high right hip set up" is NOT necessary to end up in the same basic "positioning" as Mr. Hogan at the top of his backswing.........then his downswing is relatively easy to emulate............Dariuz, I TRIED and TRIED to figure out an ESSENTIAL reason for the "high right hip/cg shift" and could NEVER figure out a reason for either other than one CREATED the NECESSITY for the other........ELIMINATE one (high right hip/ mis-aligned lumbar spine) and the need for the other was ELIMINATED.......supposedly Mr. Hogan HATED the set up and "cg shift" so much that he told Schlee, in regards to both, "do what I say and NOT what I did".......and you can certainly see this in Schlee's own golf swing as well as in "Maximum Golf".........

#19 Dariusz J.

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:01 PM

View Postslicefixer, on Jan 17 2008, 02:35 PM, said:

No, it's a result of the "high right hip" at SET UP.......and the "high right hip set up" is NOT necessary to end up in the same basic "positioning" as Mr. Hogan at the top of his backswing.........then his downswing is relatively easy to emulate............Dariuz, I TRIED and TRIED to figure out an ESSENTIAL reason for the "high right hip/cg shift" and could NEVER figure out a reason for either other than one CREATED the NECESSITY for the other........ELIMINATE one (high right hip/ mis-aligned lumbar spine) and the need for the other was ELIMINATED.......supposedly Mr. Hogan HATED the set up and "cg shift" so much that he told Schlee, in regards to both, "do what I say and NOT what I did".......and you can certainly see this in Schlee's own golf swing as well as in "Maximum Golf".........

OK, all lego pieces match perfectly - thanks, SF...except only a little one. As we all can read here:...

http://blog.thesecre...#comment-470444

...Mr.Bertrand says that Hogan's set-up was the culprit (exactly as SliceFixer said). The remaining question is what was in his set-up that caused him to raise the rear hip high at the top ? At this pic the set-up looks pretty 'standard', at least for me:



Now, if we assumed previously that at address Hogan had a bit more weight on his left leg, his right hip should be a bit lower at set-up (look at the photo)...unless he bent his left knee much more than the right one, but I can't see him bending left knee at address...
Moreover, his swing-trigger move was to bend the right knee inwards which lowered his hip even more at the very start of the takeaway...why the heck his right hip wandered so high during backswing ?

...your comments, SF ?

Cheers

Edited by Dariusz J., 17 January 2008 - 04:04 PM.


#20 slicefixer

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:29 PM

Dariuz I deal with this EXACT same set up problem all the time and mostly with good players.......I had the same problem myself.............UPPER spine (Thorasic) is on a tilt away from the target which allows the shoulders to "tilt" away from the target so as to ALLOW the right hand to be placed on top and below the left WIHTOUT opening up the shoulders an excessive amount........shoulders will be within 5 degrees or so of dead square to the target line...........HOWEVER, the LOWER spine (lumbar) is vertical (due to "level hips"), or in the worst case scenario, actually tilted TOWARD the target (you see the hips are actually tilted "down" in this scenario).......bad deal IMOP as a number of possible movements are possible from either of these set ups and all of the possible movements "complicate" the golf swing........

What you see Mr. Hogan doing in his backswing (CG shifting) is VERY common amongst good ballstrikers who exhibit the "high right hip" set up......I have video of myself making the same move WITHOUT realizing it.....did it to create a fundamentally sound top of backswing position from a BAD set up....in fact, I CANNOT think of a SINGLE good player with the same set up errors who didn't noticably improve, look, feel, and technique, once they changed from the "high right hip" set up........not ONE........to a person they say the same thing, "my swing feels much more like 2 turns now" or something to that effect.........in actuality, from a "good" set up, they are winding and transferring weight right, then unwinding and transferring weight left........there is NO CONSCIOUS "weight shift" to the left pivot point.......it DOES occur, but, as part of the "PROCESS of UNwinding what they WOUND UP" due to the top of the backswing "angles" and use of the "left side" properly.............

Edited by slicefixer, 17 January 2008 - 05:22 PM.


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#21 provx

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:45 PM

i never thought about the spine angle being different in the lumbar and the thorasic. that makes a lot of sense that they should be aligned the same way. i too noticed i setup with a high right hip and never really thought about why.

#22 xiaoxiong

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:55 PM

View Postslicefixer, on Jan 17 2008, 04:29 PM, said:

Dariuz I deal with this EXACT same set up problem all the time and mostly with good players.......I had the same problem myself.............UPPER spine (Thorasic) is on a tilt away from the target which allows the shoulders to "tilt" away from the target so as to ALLOW the right hand to be placed on top and below the left WIHTOUT opening up the shoulders an excessive amount........shoulders will be within 5 degrees or so of dead square to the target line...........HOWEVER, the LOWER spine (lumbar) is vertical (due to "level hips"), or in the worst case scenario, actually tilted TOWARD the target (you see the hips are actually tilted "down" in this scenario).......bad deal IMOP as a number of possible movements are possible from either of these set ups and all of the possible movements "complicate" the golf swing........

What you see Mr. Hogan doing in his backswing (CG shifting) is VERY common amongst good ballstrikers who exhibit the "high right hip" set up......I have video of myself making the same move WITHOUT realizing it.....did it to create a fundamentally sound top of backswing position from a BAD set up....in fact, I CANNOT think of a SINGLE good player with the same set up errors who didn't noticably improve, look, feel, and technique, once they changed from the "high right hip" set up........not ONE........to a person they say the same thing, "my swing feels much more like 2 turns now" or something to that effect.........in actuality they are winding and transferring weight right, then unwinding and transferring weight left........there is NO CONSCIOUS "weight shift" to the left pivot point.......it DOES occur, but, as part of the "unwinding" due to the top of the backswing "angles" and use of the "left side" properly.............


View Postprovx, on Jan 17 2008, 04:45 PM, said:

i never thought about the spine angle being different in the lumbar and the thorasic. that makes a lot of sense that they should be aligned the same way. i too noticed i setup with a high right hip and never really thought about why.


Wow, this is eye-opening. This is SF's secret!!! :clapping:

Thanks again,

Jay

#23 extremeVFT03

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 10:55 PM

well i've been reading and rereading this book and i love it. but the thing that gets me is the elbows in part, i will say one thing if i bring both elbows in like in the pictures in the book i swing alot better and free myself up alot quicker. it felt wierd at first but im getting use to it but i dont see were he did it in any of the swing videos of him.

#24 ultra45

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 01:46 AM

View Postprovx, on Jan 17 2008, 03:45 PM, said:

i never thought about the spine angle being different in the lumbar and the thorasic. that makes a lot of sense that they should be aligned the same way. i too noticed i setup with a high right hip and never really thought about why.


can someone post pictures of a "high right hip" vs not high??

#25 mizuno67

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 11:00 AM

To Mr Slicefixer,
i am new to this forum and have just been reading about stack&tilt and the vjtrolio stuff and want to know if the stack&tilt people think they are swinging like ben hogan? as far as trolio his swing looks like a stack and tilt whatever that is . I watch hogan a lot and he moves his head to the right a lot in his backswing and this seems like it encourages him to turn his weight into the right side on his backswing and if trolio did this he would get closer to hogans swing? Do you really think hogan made compensations for his set up position or maybe these moves he made gave him power and direction? Maybe hogan said it best when he wrote do the complete opposite and you may be closer to the thruth. I am kind of behind with all these new hogan theories and since i see you writing a lot maybe you can tell me which if any of these theories is close to hogan? also include jim hardy's one plane method

thanks


#26 dirt

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 11:37 AM

This was/is a great thread.  Thanks Fellas.  When my friends ask me about the golf swing, I direct them to pages 90 to 95 in Five Lessons.  After they read that section, I advise them to start from the beginning.....keeping in mind that 90 to 95 is where you want to hang your hat.

#27 LucF

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 12:05 PM

Hogan's "Fundamentals" has helped me alot and I sometimes go back to it--as I do to Nicklaus' "Golf My Way".

An interesting read (I thought so, at least) to get some perspective on the "Fundamentals" is Leadbetter's "The Fundamentals of Hogan", where he compares his views to those of Hogan on all aspects of the setup and swing, and discusses discrepancies between what he sees Hogan doing in the photos and what Hogan says he does in the Fundamentals.

The book also has lots of very good photographs of Hogan.

#28 mizuno67

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 08:03 PM

this footage from 1967 masters yes i agree blew me away when i saw this looks like a lot of weight leaning left as he changes direction but one point have you considered what type of shot he was hitting maybe he was trying to hit a shot with extra "cut" spin on it? Maybe it was a shot into a par 5 you would have to ask the video author ( darracott?) i can remember reading somewhere ( i think in " the hogan mystique" jules alexander?) he was a master of this shot
Any thoughts?

#29 Tigersworld

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 08:28 PM







JuNiOR

#30 slicefixer

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 09:23 PM

View PostTigersworld, on Jan 20 2008, 09:28 PM, said:

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JuNiOR


Boy, where did THAT come from??  A LOT of it is HIGHLY flawed......armplane is too upright, his shaft at the top was MUCH more laid off, and the release is ALL wrong as the shoulders are square and that's a REALLY "slingy" release....(watch where the hands "disappear"......MID chest.....NOT even close......should be around "waist high")....NOT even close where it counts.........GREAT technology, but, whoever modeled it MISSED BADLY on a LOT of it........

Edited by slicefixer, 20 January 2008 - 09:34 PM.


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