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Could this be true?


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#1 sclay419

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 07:26 PM

Wow, after reading this article, I found it hard to argue against the prognosis. We've become a "right now" society and if you're not good, why keep trying? Pretty sad commentary.


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Edited by sclay419, 17 February 2016 - 07:27 PM.

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#2 Hot Rod 71

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 07:27 PM

I got an error message when I opened the link. The article is no longer available.
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#3 b.helts

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 07:34 PM

came up for me?

edited to add: kind of wished it hadn't. Agree with dude below me, with a few exceptions like the WITB story from a high school tournament where the dude bagged on a bunch of kids with "normal" sets of clubs.

Edited by b.helts, 17 February 2016 - 07:39 PM.


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#4 tannyhoban

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 07:35 PM

Let's Be Honest...golfwrx.com kicks golf.com's arse.  And drivel like that article proves why.

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#5 Hot Rod 71

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 07:46 PM

It finally worked for me after a few tries.

Golf is a difficult sport, and many of today's youth would rather focus on activities that provide instant gratification, like X-Box, which is how many of them prefer to participate in sports.

When i was a kid a bunch of us from the neighborhood would discuss playing football on the bus ride home, and then we'd all meet and play for hours. Now, kids talk about playing football on the bus ride home and then sit on their couches and play each other for hours on X-Box Live. Sad.

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#6 MadGolfer76

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 07:54 PM

So 96 shots take longer than 78? If only there was someone here who had been hammering that home for years on end... :russian_roulette:

Still, golf isn't struggling because of slow play. Golf has always been slow. It's a goal post discussion because all the bloated businesses that grew under the last decade are shrinking away, and those companies want us to think there is a "problem" in order to encourage changing the game itself to fit their new business model. All of these sites pander to OEM's - don't believe anything they say. The only problem is their growing irrelevance.

Edited by MadGolfer76, 17 February 2016 - 07:57 PM.

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#7 tannyhoban

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 07:54 PM

Here's the thing.  What exactly is the point?  What does "golf" think it should be?  Every sport has evolved with each succeeding generation, kids don't do the sandlot much anymore - so what. I enjoyed that stuff, but that's what we knew then.

All this hand wringing about the state of golf is so much fu fu.  And this forum and that article get exactly zero eyeballs without devices, a bit ironic.

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#8 BobbyDPlaysGolf

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 08:32 PM

The sad thing is the article is right. I just took a solo golf trip and I kept getting paired with guys that were shooting 120+ from the whites. One round in particular seemed like every hole was a scavenger hunt and occasionally I would get to hit a shot. When you get paired with guys like that, nothing against them, it's not that fun. You don't get time to really digest your shot because you don't know if the guy is going to chip one into you, you can't really walk ahead of them in the fairway for the same reason either. Slow play is bad enough, but constantly helping 3 people find their golf ball and being alert to everyone of their shots is a bit distracting. We fell way behind and I knew we were holding the course up, those are things I don't like to worry about when I'm playing.
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#9 MtlJeff

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 08:43 PM

People don't quit basketball or soccer because they are bad at it...there are plenty of mens leagues all over the place in these sports filled with people who are the equivalent of a 20 index in golf.

All these opinions on why golf is struggling are dumb. There is no secret. It is not the most expensive sport in the world, and it's not the most time consuming....but it's in the higher half of both of these things. There are many sports and activities that you can do for less money and less time. I have many married friends who had a choice between giving up their hockey league or giving up their golf league once they had kids. I don't know any that chose golf. They play hockey once or twice a week, the game is an hour long, and the cost of the league is half that of a golf membership. This is just one example but it's true of basketball leagues, cross training, soccer leagues etc etc etc

Golf is a sport for people with higher amounts of time and higher then average incomes. People don't quit because they are "bad"....trust me go to your local men's basketball league, there's people who can't make layups that are perfectly happy playing
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#10 thug the bunny

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 08:48 PM

More handwringing about the state of the game. And comparing golf to bridge is a waay improper analogy. By it's very nature (eg, the physical act of striking a ball so it flies far into the air hundreds of yards), golf is approximately 50,000 orders of magnitude more engaging than bridge.

Regarding the skill vs. pace issue, I don't know how people can argue that pace has no relationship to skill level. If you are constantly hunting for your ball and taking 100 strokes to finish 18, and you multiply that by 4 golfers in a group, how are they supposed to get around in 3 hrs? Yes, yes, I also know (just like everyone who is going to reply with examples of high hc players they know who play fast) some high hc anomalies who move along nicely, but, for one thing, they have been playing for centuries, and for another thing, whenever I play with them I always think to myself if they had just taken their time with their PSR rather than just stepping up and swiping at the ball, they might have hit it better rather than the 100 yd skank into the weeds to the right, for which we will all have to spend another 2 minutes searching....

Anyway, all this prophesying is just drama, and the argument of time needed to play is manufactured, although I'm amazed at the number of golfers who buy into it. There are a plethora of other activities that take a long time to complete and yet are not wanting for participants. When was the last time you heard a fisherman complain about how long it took him to go fishing? Actually, it's usually the opposite, right? "Wish I could have stayed out there all day..."

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#11 MtlJeff

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 08:57 PM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 17 February 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

So 96 shots take longer than 78? If only there was someone here who had been hammering that home for years on end... :russian_roulette:

Still, golf isn't struggling because of slow play. Golf has always been slow. It's a goal post discussion because all the bloated businesses that grew under the last decade are shrinking away, and those companies want us to think there is a "problem" in order to encourage changing the game itself to fit their new business model. All of these sites pander to OEM's - don't believe anything they say. The only problem is their growing irrelevance.

It's an interesting point. Golf had a boom, and now golf companies are struggling due to bloated product offerings and short sighted marketing practices. Few OEMs are profitable. While i dont disagree with you, i think even independant of the golf OEMs, the growing disparity of wealth (this has been talked about ad nauseum) over the past 20-30 years is inevitably going to hurt a sport like golf.

If you are 35, there's a good chance you grew up in a single income family. That just doesn't happen anymore. Both parents have to work and even still the average net worth of Americans and Canadians is not very high, and job security is at an alltime low as far as i'm concerned. The target market for golfers is shrinking. As the percentage of the population that can afford it comfortably without skimping on everything is a lot smaller then it used to be
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#12 thug the bunny

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 09:09 PM

View PostBobbyDPlaysGolf, on 17 February 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

The sad thing is the article is right. I just took a solo golf trip and I kept getting paired with guys that were shooting 120+ from the whites. One round in particular seemed like every hole was a scavenger hunt and occasionally I would get to hit a shot. When you get paired with guys like that, nothing against them, it's not that fun. You don't get time to really digest your shot because you don't know if the guy is going to chip one into you, you can't really walk ahead of them in the fairway for the same reason either. Slow play is bad enough, but constantly helping 3 people find their golf ball and being alert to everyone of their shots is a bit distracting. We fell way behind and I knew we were holding the course up, those are things I don't like to worry about when I'm playing.

Haha, but shortly now, there will be a bunch of WRXers who will adamantly argue  that those guys could have played in 3 hrs if they played ready golf!
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#13 thug the bunny

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 09:19 PM

View PostMtlJeff, on 17 February 2016 - 08:43 PM, said:

People don't quit basketball or soccer because they are bad at it...there are plenty of mens leagues all over the place in these sports filled with people who are the equivalent of a 20 index in golf.

All these opinions on why golf is struggling are dumb. There is no secret. It is not the most expensive sport in the world, and it's not the most time consuming....but it's in the higher half of both of these things. There are many sports and activities that you can do for less money and less time. I have many married friends who had a choice between giving up their hockey league or giving up their golf league once they had kids. I don't know any that chose golf. They play hockey once or twice a week, the game is an hour long, and the cost of the league is half that of a golf membership. This is just one example but it's true of basketball leagues, cross training, soccer leagues etc etc etc

Golf is a sport for people with higher amounts of time and higher then average incomes. People don't quit because they are "bad"....trust me go to your local men's basketball league, there's people who can't make layups that are perfectly happy playing

As usual MJ, you're analysis is spot on. It's a synergistic intersection of multiple variables - time, difficulty, cost, demographics, etc.

Still, I am certain golf ain't goin nowhere. It's just too damn captivating. Kayaking is time and cost intensive, but will never just go away because it is so awesome. How about skiing? Cost and time intensive. Is there any talk about skiing dying (I really don't know)?
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#14 ratspros

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 09:37 PM

I'm sorry but this article is garbage and any argument that golf is struggling due to pace of play is garbage as well. Golf in the past was a 4+ hour game, golf is currently a 4+ hour game and I dare guess that golf in the future will be a 4+ hour game.

The "while we're young" slogan doesn't promote faster play. What it does is show people who aren't golfers and might want to become a golfer is that golfers in general are the most impatient and hurried people on the planet.

Seriously look at the threads here. Someone plays a round of golf in 4:25min instead of 4:02min and the world ends. Waited 13min on every shot, guys ahead had no clue, etc etc...

You want golf to flourish like it did in the late 80's early 90's. Start selling it for what it is. A nice LOOONG afternoon with the family or buddies. Take all the time in the world, we are golfing and having fun.  Trust me people won't be THAT slow. They weren't in the 80's and 90's. People who complain about slow play are the death of growing the game.

The only reason I care about growing the game is from a purely selfish standpoint. I have a 2year old and 4 year old. Both girls. Both love coming to the course with me and both love golf and I want them to have other girls and boys to play with because I know soon it's not going to be cool to hang out with dad at the country club.

So stop whining about everything that is wrong with golf. There is so much more right with golf that we should be talking about. The buddy who got his first hole in one, the single that joined you and is now your friend 5 years later, the time you could've cheated in a grade 10 math test but you remembered a fellow competitor in a junior tournament being called out for cheating you thought better in that moment.

Golf is AWESOME and it's not going anywhere. The while we're young ads with the best intentions came off wrong. Let's start sharing stories of awesomeness on the golf course. The drive pitch and putt contest is awesome and gets buzz with the kids. Kids don't need instant gratification, in fact I would say with watching my two girls they prefer something that takes time to be good at than instant gratification. Instant gratification is boring, becoming good at something that's hard and exciting.

My girls both suck hard core at skating/hockey, seriously they are terrible.  They both wake up every day wanting to go to the community rink.  kids, just like they want discipline, want challenge. I often wonder is it the kids that want this instant gratification or is it the parents because it's a whole lot easier for me as a parent to sit my kids in front of the YouTube than it is for me to constantly pick them up off the ice or put them back in the proper stance when swinging a golf club.  Also when I watch my kids succeed I feel good. I really do. Watching them struggle to balance on skates or remember how to grip a golf club hurts. It really does hurt.  Maybe it's us parents that are causing this instant gratification without realizing doing so it's boring the sh!t out of our kids.

End rant. Golf is awesome, don't shine a spotlight on minuscule short coming about the game but shine that spotlight on what is awesome about the game.

I have friends for life, I have become more honest, I have enjoyed more family time, I have saved a life. All because of golf.  

GOLF IS AWESOME!!!!!

Edited by ratspros, 17 February 2016 - 09:40 PM.


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#15 thug the bunny

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 10:47 PM

View Postratspros, on 17 February 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'm sorry but this article is garbage and any argument that golf is struggling due to pace of play is garbage as well. Golf in the past was a 4+ hour game, golf is currently a 4+ hour game and I dare guess that golf in the future will be a 4+ hour game.

The "while we're young" slogan doesn't promote faster play. What it does is show people who aren't golfers and might want to become a golfer is that golfers in general are the most impatient and hurried people on the planet.

Seriously look at the threads here. Someone plays a round of golf in 4:25min instead of 4:02min and the world ends. Waited 13min on every shot, guys ahead had no clue, etc etc...

You want golf to flourish like it did in the late 80's early 90's. Start selling it for what it is. A nice LOOONG afternoon with the family or buddies. Take all the time in the world, we are golfing and having fun.  Trust me people won't be THAT slow. They weren't in the 80's and 90's. People who complain about slow play are the death of growing the game.

The only reason I care about growing the game is from a purely selfish standpoint. I have a 2year old and 4 year old. Both girls. Both love coming to the course with me and both love golf and I want them to have other girls and boys to play with because I know soon it's not going to be cool to hang out with dad at the country club.

So stop whining about everything that is wrong with golf. There is so much more right with golf that we should be talking about. The buddy who got his first hole in one, the single that joined you and is now your friend 5 years later, the time you could've cheated in a grade 10 math test but you remembered a fellow competitor in a junior tournament being called out for cheating you thought better in that moment.

Golf is AWESOME and it's not going anywhere. The while we're young ads with the best intentions came off wrong. Let's start sharing stories of awesomeness on the golf course. The drive pitch and putt contest is awesome and gets buzz with the kids. Kids don't need instant gratification, in fact I would say with watching my two girls they prefer something that takes time to be good at than instant gratification. Instant gratification is boring, becoming good at something that's hard and exciting.

My girls both suck hard core at skating/hockey, seriously they are terrible.  They both wake up every day wanting to go to the community rink.  kids, just like they want discipline, want challenge. I often wonder is it the kids that want this instant gratification or is it the parents because it's a whole lot easier for me as a parent to sit my kids in front of the YouTube than it is for me to constantly pick them up off the ice or put them back in the proper stance when swinging a golf club.  Also when I watch my kids succeed I feel good. I really do. Watching them struggle to balance on skates or remember how to grip a golf club hurts. It really does hurt.  Maybe it's us parents that are causing this instant gratification without realizing doing so it's boring the sh!t out of our kids.

End rant. Golf is awesome, don't shine a spotlight on minuscule short coming about the game but shine that spotlight on what is awesome about the game.

I have friends for life, I have become more honest, I have enjoyed more family time, I have saved a life. All because of golf.  

GOLF IS AWESOME!!!!!

rats, I would give you a hundred 'likes' if I could. Great post.

And, like you implied, I think that the whole 'while we are young',' play in under 3 hrs no matter your skill level' campaign is actually having the opposite effect than that which was intended, and is actually driving new players away from the game. I know when my wife started playing the first couple years, even though we were keeping pace with the group in front, occasional balls hit near us from the group behind, along with the classic 'hands on hips' and 'folded arms' postures would freak her out and just make her play even worse, making her play even slower, which made her play worse, etc, etc....

A lot of WRXers should realize that they are at (or say they are at) the 90 percentile. OK, you are a 20 hc, and you can determine distance, wind, lie, angle into the green, elevation, trajectory, and rollout, all in 5 seconds. Good for you. Most 20 cappers ARE NOT like you! Now that I reconsider, if you can do all that well in 5 sec, why aren't you a 8 hc? We keep hearing from high cappers who boast that they can play in under 3 hrs. Maybe if you played OVER 3 hrs you might score better.

You ever go fishing and just want to get it over with as fast as possible? I just still can't wrap my mind around that concept. I'm doing something I love but I want to get it over with as fast as possible. Whaaa?

Edited by thug the bunny, 17 February 2016 - 11:06 PM.

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#16 MadGolfer76

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 11:15 PM

View PostMtlJeff, on 17 February 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 17 February 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

So 96 shots take longer than 78? If only there was someone here who had been hammering that home for years on end... :russian_roulette:

Still, golf isn't struggling because of slow play. Golf has always been slow. It's a goal post discussion because all the bloated businesses that grew under the last decade are shrinking away, and those companies want us to think there is a "problem" in order to encourage changing the game itself to fit their new business model. All of these sites pander to OEM's - don't believe anything they say. The only problem is their growing irrelevance.

It's an interesting point. Golf had a boom, and now golf companies are struggling due to bloated product offerings and short sighted marketing practices. Few OEMs are profitable. While i dont disagree with you, i think even independant of the golf OEMs, the growing disparity of wealth (this has been talked about ad nauseum) over the past 20-30 years is inevitably going to hurt a sport like golf.

If you are 35, there's a good chance you grew up in a single income family. That just doesn't happen anymore. Both parents have to work and even still the average net worth of Americans and Canadians is not very high, and job security is at an alltime low as far as i'm concerned. The target market for golfers is shrinking. As the percentage of the population that can afford it comfortably without skimping on everything is a lot smaller then it used to be

As in all things, there is ebb and flow, and the market will eventually come to rest at a sustainable point. The only question for me is how much of the spirit of the game gets lost along the way due to people who are ten years late already in noticing the writing on the wall.

The interesting thing about those old pie charts on economic disparity we've both seen, is that the point where two incomes become commonplace in American and Canadian households is never identified. That shift is never highlighted and is veiled in convenient statistics to hide the fact that much more used to be possible with a single income. Thank you 80's-era President (not).
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#17 Medic

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 11:57 PM

I guess being in Florida I have a different perspective on things. We have access to play all year long. I have played for about 30 years now down here and here's a few indisputable facts - not just conjecture of guesses.
  • There are plenty of young people coming up into the game. Every fall, when school starts, the high school teams clutter up the courses with their coaches practicing for the fall season. Each team has about 20 members with an equal split between boys and girls. On the range it becomes evident; while some are new to the game some have some real talent. No doubt they will continue playing after HS.
  • Each winter our courses are full. The prices go from $15 to 50 in summer up to $45 to 200 in winter for the exact same courses. And yet they stay full. In the past 5 winters or so I have seen increases in both the number of players in the area teeing it up and in the prices being paid.
  • Only a couple of local courses closed. Both were mismanaged. The other courses I frequent seem to be well cared for, get lots of play, and seem to have a fairly stable future. The incredible amounts of rain definitely cause some damages. But the course management, on my properties, got ahead of things and those courses and still very nice.

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#18 Hot Rod 71

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 08:16 AM

View Postratspros, on 17 February 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

Kids don't need instant gratification, in fact I would say with watching my two girls they prefer something that takes time to be good at than instant gratification. Instant gratification is boring, becoming good at something that's hard and exciting.

I often wonder is it the kids that want this instant gratification or is it the parents because it's a whole lot easier for me as a parent to sit my kids in front of the YouTube than it is for me to constantly pick them up off the ice or put them back in the proper stance when swinging a golf club.

I agree 100% with the above.  Kids want instant gratification because its what they have learned; its what their parents have taught them.  

Its now commonplace to see young people with some sort of device in their hands, even at a very young age.  Its become a way for parents to manage their behavior (keep them quiet and occupied) with little effort.
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#19 HoosierMizuno

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 09:56 AM

imagine going fishing and getting to the dock and seeing that you have to wait 20 minutes before putting boat in the water even thought dock manager told you it was wide open. then you finally hit the water, cast and reel your line in. now you are not allowed to recast until the guy in the boat near you casts. you are waiting patiently while he struggles to get the worm on the hook. he practices his awful casting form not once, not twice, but no less than four times. he finally casts and the worm flies off the hook. he now gets a redo.  you are still waiting. he finally manages to successfully cast and reel in his line. you do the same and then get to watch again as he doesn't realize its his turn. he's fumbling around in his cooler or checking his twitter feed........

willing to bet fishermen would have a little different take on the 'wish i could've been out there all day' if this is how it went.
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#20 Chief Illiniwek

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 10:57 AM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 17 February 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:

View PostMtlJeff, on 17 February 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 17 February 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

So 96 shots take longer than 78? If only there was someone here who had been hammering that home for years on end... :russian_roulette:

Still, golf isn't struggling because of slow play. Golf has always been slow. It's a goal post discussion because all the bloated businesses that grew under the last decade are shrinking away, and those companies want us to think there is a "problem" in order to encourage changing the game itself to fit their new business model. All of these sites pander to OEM's - don't believe anything they say. The only problem is their growing irrelevance.

It's an interesting point. Golf had a boom, and now golf companies are struggling due to bloated product offerings and short sighted marketing practices. Few OEMs are profitable. While i dont disagree with you, i think even independant of the golf OEMs, the growing disparity of wealth (this has been talked about ad nauseum) over the past 20-30 years is inevitably going to hurt a sport like golf.

If you are 35, there's a good chance you grew up in a single income family. That just doesn't happen anymore. Both parents have to work and even still the average net worth of Americans and Canadians is not very high, and job security is at an alltime low as far as i'm concerned. The target market for golfers is shrinking. As the percentage of the population that can afford it comfortably without skimping on everything is a lot smaller then it used to be

As in all things, there is ebb and flow, and the market will eventually come to rest at a sustainable point. The only question for me is how much of the spirit of the game gets lost along the way due to people who are ten years late already in noticing the writing on the wall.

The interesting thing about those old pie charts on economic disparity we've both seen, is that the point where two incomes become commonplace in American and Canadian households is never identified. That shift is never highlighted and is veiled in convenient statistics to hide the fact that much more used to be possible with a single income. Thank you 80's-era President (not).

I have no statistics or research to back this up, but I think this is BS in my opinion. Here's my reasoning:

Think back to what is was like growing up in the supposed boom times of the 50's and 60's, or what your parents/grandparents told you it was like. Many had a father that worked and a mother raising the kids/keeping the home. They lived in a three bedroom one bathroom house. A bunch of square rooms. Shag carpet and linoleum. One tv. One radio. One car in the driveway. Clothes weren't brand name. Everybody had their everyday shoes and their Sunday shoes. The appliances were a stove and fridge. Kids activities were school and summer baseball. Free time was just playing with kids in the neighborhood. Meals were mostly homemade.

Contrast that to 2016. Many are single parents, but if you're lucky your parents are still together but yes they both "have" to work to support your 2016 lifestyle. Now you don't want some small ranch, you need an architecturally appealing house in the suburbs. Hardwood floors. Ten foot ceilings. Every kid needs their own bedroom of course. Gotta have a minimum of three bathrooms, and the master needs the jacuzzi tub. 70" flatscreen in the main living room, but don't forget the slightly smaller flat screens in the master bedroom, every kid's room, the kitchen, let's put another in the den. Three channels in the 50's? No we need 200. Oh and now every single person needs a smart phone. Don't forget a laptop or two, printer, desktop maybe, router and Internet connection. Out in the driveway? Mom's Tahoe and Dad's full sized pickup. Everybody has their name brand clothes, never mind it cost the company $2 to make the garment. We need Under Armor shirts, Lucky jeans, and a dozen Nike shoes to match our outfit for the day. Kids too. Appliances? All the old stuff the had in the 50's, only twice as big. Plus a microwave. Plus a dishwasher. Plus a bunch of other junk. Gotta have that stuff to save time. Cuz junior has hockey tonight. Then swimming lessons. Then we've got the play date. No time to cook with all that. Let's grab food at a restaurant and pay someone else to prepare it and serve it to us. No time for that? Oh let's just grab some almost as expensive but crazy unhealthy fast food.

I could go on, but you get the point. We want about ten times more "stuff" than previous generations had. But we also want to complain when it's hard to get by, even on two salaries. Waaa. Poor us.

Wow, that felt good to get out. I guess it's easier to just say Reagen screwed us...


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#21 70sSanO

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 11:20 AM

I agree that the problem is that golf is too difficult for kids these days; not because kids don't have the abilty or that the game has changed, but because there are no places for them to learn to play.

When I first started playing as a kid, I played on par 3 municipal courses.  They were cheap, had flat greens, maybe one bunker, of sorts, on the entire course, and you could play them with a handful of clubs that cost next to nothing at a thrift store.  They were the equivilant of a buinny slope in skiing.  If it was fun, you would keep playing and some took it up seriously, if not you did something else.  I would love to see kids do the same thing, but for the most part, all these courses are gone.

But if I were to choose one area that has hurt the sport, for someone just starting out, it is distance.  Distance has always been part of the the game, but it seems that as time has gone on, distance is the game.

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#22 MadGolfer76

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 12:21 PM

View PostChief Illiniwek, on 18 February 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 17 February 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:

View PostMtlJeff, on 17 February 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 17 February 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

So 96 shots take longer than 78? If only there was someone here who had been hammering that home for years on end... :russian_roulette:

Still, golf isn't struggling because of slow play. Golf has always been slow. It's a goal post discussion because all the bloated businesses that grew under the last decade are shrinking away, and those companies want us to think there is a "problem" in order to encourage changing the game itself to fit their new business model. All of these sites pander to OEM's - don't believe anything they say. The only problem is their growing irrelevance.

It's an interesting point. Golf had a boom, and now golf companies are struggling due to bloated product offerings and short sighted marketing practices. Few OEMs are profitable. While i dont disagree with you, i think even independant of the golf OEMs, the growing disparity of wealth (this has been talked about ad nauseum) over the past 20-30 years is inevitably going to hurt a sport like golf.

If you are 35, there's a good chance you grew up in a single income family. That just doesn't happen anymore. Both parents have to work and even still the average net worth of Americans and Canadians is not very high, and job security is at an alltime low as far as i'm concerned. The target market for golfers is shrinking. As the percentage of the population that can afford it comfortably without skimping on everything is a lot smaller then it used to be

As in all things, there is ebb and flow, and the market will eventually come to rest at a sustainable point. The only question for me is how much of the spirit of the game gets lost along the way due to people who are ten years late already in noticing the writing on the wall.

The interesting thing about those old pie charts on economic disparity we've both seen, is that the point where two incomes become commonplace in American and Canadian households is never identified. That shift is never highlighted and is veiled in convenient statistics to hide the fact that much more used to be possible with a single income. Thank you 80's-era President (not).

I have no statistics or research to back this up, but I think this is BS in my opinion. Here's my reasoning:

Think back to what is was like growing up in the supposed boom times of the 50's and 60's, or what your parents/grandparents told you it was like. Many had a father that worked and a mother raising the kids/keeping the home. They lived in a three bedroom one bathroom house. A bunch of square rooms. Shag carpet and linoleum. One tv. One radio. One car in the driveway. Clothes weren't brand name. Everybody had their everyday shoes and their Sunday shoes. The appliances were a stove and fridge. Kids activities were school and summer baseball. Free time was just playing with kids in the neighborhood. Meals were mostly homemade.

Contrast that to 2016. Many are single parents, but if you're lucky your parents are still together but yes they both "have" to work to support your 2016 lifestyle. Now you don't want some small ranch, you need an architecturally appealing house in the suburbs. Hardwood floors. Ten foot ceilings. Every kid needs their own bedroom of course. Gotta have a minimum of three bathrooms, and the master needs the jacuzzi tub. 70" flatscreen in the main living room, but don't forget the slightly smaller flat screens in the master bedroom, every kid's room, the kitchen, let's put another in the den. Three channels in the 50's? No we need 200. Oh and now every single person needs a smart phone. Don't forget a laptop or two, printer, desktop maybe, router and Internet connection. Out in the driveway? Mom's Tahoe and Dad's full sized pickup. Everybody has their name brand clothes, never mind it cost the company $2 to make the garment. We need Under Armor shirts, Lucky jeans, and a dozen Nike shoes to match our outfit for the day. Kids too. Appliances? All the old stuff the had in the 50's, only twice as big. Plus a microwave. Plus a dishwasher. Plus a bunch of other junk. Gotta have that stuff to save time. Cuz junior has hockey tonight. Then swimming lessons. Then we've got the play date. No time to cook with all that. Let's grab food at a restaurant and pay someone else to prepare it and serve it to us. No time for that? Oh let's just grab some almost as expensive but crazy unhealthy fast food.

I could go on, but you get the point. We want about ten times more "stuff" than previous generations had. But we also want to complain when it's hard to get by, even on two salaries. Waaa. Poor us.

Wow, that felt good to get out. I guess it's easier to just say Reagen screwed us...

What you are talking about is standard of living, and is completely relevant (and actually refreshing to read vs some of the other responses there could have been). You are indeed correct that many families feel obliged to acquire more "stuff" than ever before, and end up living beyond their means. I say that observing the complete irony of such a statement on an equipment-hungry golf forum, but I digress. All of these things need to be broken out in the data along with the consideration I mentioned.

I'm not sure why you responded so strongly to my earlier post, but I did find your insight refreshing.
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#23 Chief Illiniwek

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 12:27 PM

Ya sorry it was kinda in reference to Jeff's post, and not even directed at him or you, except maybe the Reagen comment haha. It's more just a commentary on how much I hate people talking about how hard we have it and how both parents need to work, combined with our lack of time for recreation. I think the more people hear that, the more they just take it as accepted fact rather than considering why that's the case.
I enjoy reading both your posts and sometimes agree, sometimes disagree. I guess that subject just really pulled a rant out of me haha!

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#24 Forged4ever

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 12:32 PM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 18 February 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

View PostChief Illiniwek, on 18 February 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 17 February 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:

View PostMtlJeff, on 17 February 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 17 February 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

So 96 shots take longer than 78? If only there was someone here who had been hammering that home for years on end... :russian_roulette:

Still, golf isn't struggling because of slow play. Golf has always been slow. It's a goal post discussion because all the bloated businesses that grew under the last decade are shrinking away, and those companies want us to think there is a "problem" in order to encourage changing the game itself to fit their new business model. All of these sites pander to OEM's - don't believe anything they say. The only problem is their growing irrelevance.

It's an interesting point. Golf had a boom, and now golf companies are struggling due to bloated product offerings and short sighted marketing practices. Few OEMs are profitable. While i dont disagree with you, i think even independant of the golf OEMs, the growing disparity of wealth (this has been talked about ad nauseum) over the past 20-30 years is inevitably going to hurt a sport like golf.

If you are 35, there's a good chance you grew up in a single income family. That just doesn't happen anymore. Both parents have to work and even still the average net worth of Americans and Canadians is not very high, and job security is at an alltime low as far as i'm concerned. The target market for golfers is shrinking. As the percentage of the population that can afford it comfortably without skimping on everything is a lot smaller then it used to be

As in all things, there is ebb and flow, and the market will eventually come to rest at a sustainable point. The only question for me is how much of the spirit of the game gets lost along the way due to people who are ten years late already in noticing the writing on the wall.

The interesting thing about those old pie charts on economic disparity we've both seen, is that the point where two incomes become commonplace in American and Canadian households is never identified. That shift is never highlighted and is veiled in convenient statistics to hide the fact that much more used to be possible with a single income. Thank you 80's-era President (not).

I have no statistics or research to back this up, but I think this is BS in my opinion. Here's my reasoning:

Think back to what is was like growing up in the supposed boom times of the 50's and 60's, or what your parents/grandparents told you it was like. Many had a father that worked and a mother raising the kids/keeping the home. They lived in a three bedroom one bathroom house. A bunch of square rooms. Shag carpet and linoleum. One tv. One radio. One car in the driveway. Clothes weren't brand name. Everybody had their everyday shoes and their Sunday shoes. The appliances were a stove and fridge. Kids activities were school and summer baseball. Free time was just playing with kids in the neighborhood. Meals were mostly homemade.

Contrast that to 2016. Many are single parents, but if you're lucky your parents are still together but yes they both "have" to work to support your 2016 lifestyle. Now you don't want some small ranch, you need an architecturally appealing house in the suburbs. Hardwood floors. Ten foot ceilings. Every kid needs their own bedroom of course. Gotta have a minimum of three bathrooms, and the master needs the jacuzzi tub. 70" flatscreen in the main living room, but don't forget the slightly smaller flat screens in the master bedroom, every kid's room, the kitchen, let's put another in the den. Three channels in the 50's? No we need 200. Oh and now every single person needs a smart phone. Don't forget a laptop or two, printer, desktop maybe, router and Internet connection. Out in the driveway? Mom's Tahoe and Dad's full sized pickup. Everybody has their name brand clothes, never mind it cost the company $2 to make the garment. We need Under Armor shirts, Lucky jeans, and a dozen Nike shoes to match our outfit for the day. Kids too. Appliances? All the old stuff the had in the 50's, only twice as big. Plus a microwave. Plus a dishwasher. Plus a bunch of other junk. Gotta have that stuff to save time. Cuz junior has hockey tonight. Then swimming lessons. Then we've got the play date. No time to cook with all that. Let's grab food at a restaurant and pay someone else to prepare it and serve it to us. No time for that? Oh let's just grab some almost as expensive but crazy unhealthy fast food.

I could go on, but you get the point. We want about ten times more "stuff" than previous generations had. But we also want to complain when it's hard to get by, even on two salaries. Waaa. Poor us.

Wow, that felt good to get out. I guess it's easier to just say Reagen screwed us...
I'm not sure why you responded so strongly to my earlier post, but I did find your insight refreshing.
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#25 MtlJeff

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 12:46 PM

View PostChief Illiniwek, on 18 February 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Ya sorry it was kinda in reference to Jeff's post, and not even directed at him or you, except maybe the Reagen comment haha. It's more just a commentary on how much I hate people talking about how hard we have it and how both parents need to work, combined with our lack of time for recreation. I think the more people hear that, the more they just take it as accepted fact rather than considering why that's the case.
I enjoy reading both your posts and sometimes agree, sometimes disagree. I guess that subject just really pulled a rant out of me haha!

I agree with you that some people overspend and are way too driven by consumerism, and a need to measure themselves with things (I know people that won't invite anyone over who has a bigger house then them). I do also believe this is a reflection of our Twitter age narcissism.

But even without that, I don't believe that middle or upper middle class incomes have increased in accordance with costs of living, I recall seeing some data on that too but am at work and don't want to look it up

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#26 MadGolfer76

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 01:24 PM

View PostChief Illiniwek, on 18 February 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Ya sorry it was kinda in reference to Jeff's post, and not even directed at him or you, except maybe the Reagen comment haha. It's more just a commentary on how much I hate people talking about how hard we have it and how both parents need to work, combined with our lack of time for recreation. I think the more people hear that, the more they just take it as accepted fact rather than considering why that's the case.
I enjoy reading both your posts and sometimes agree, sometimes disagree. I guess that subject just really pulled a rant out of me haha!

I talk with my father quite a lot, and he grew up during the 50's and 60's. That perspective of "when did *more* become normal?" is one I am appreciative of, especially having grown up pre-internet. My dad believes that one of the key differences between those years and now is the number of jobs that involve irregular hours. Dad used to come home after work and then coach my Little League team (after I graduated he would just go out and play nine holes). Not every parent has the option of doing that anymore. Perhaps middle and upper management have more predictable schedules, but the folks that keep the lights on and the gears turning 24/7 are in a different position.

If you think about all the social variables that have employment availability at their core, it isn't hard to see how some fundamental shifts in employment expectations have far-reaching effects that translate to golf as well.

Edited by MadGolfer76, 18 February 2016 - 01:26 PM.

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#27 Chief Illiniwek

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 02:32 PM

View PostMtlJeff, on 18 February 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

View PostChief Illiniwek, on 18 February 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Ya sorry it was kinda in reference to Jeff's post, and not even directed at him or you, except maybe the Reagen comment haha. It's more just a commentary on how much I hate people talking about how hard we have it and how both parents need to work, combined with our lack of time for recreation. I think the more people hear that, the more they just take it as accepted fact rather than considering why that's the case.
I enjoy reading both your posts and sometimes agree, sometimes disagree. I guess that subject just really pulled a rant out of me haha!

I agree with you that some people overspend and are way too driven by consumerism, and a need to measure themselves with things (I know people that won't invite anyone over who has a bigger house then them). I do also believe this is a reflection of our Twitter age narcissism.

But even without that, I don't believe that middle or upper middle class incomes have increased in accordance with costs of living, I recall seeing some data on that too but am at work and don't want to look it up

I don't doubt that research exists, but I suspect I'd strongly disagree with their assessments based on my above rant. We have SO much more unnecessary junk than they did in the 50's/60's and it's not even close. No doubt the research would cite cost of living increases such as cell phone fees, Internet connections, median houses being more expensive, DirectTV bill, and the like. I also strongly disagree with your use of the word "some" when describing how many people overspend. I realize it's my opinion but I'm just on a completely different mindset than 99% of people when it comes to my spending. When I say I can afford something that means I can plop down the cash for it. When many of my buddies, who frequently tease me about being rich half jokingly, say they can afford something that means they can handle the payments. Now all that means I generally don't have as nice of stuff as a lot of my buddies, and my wife and I don't drive $40k vehicles, and we are both totally ok with that. There's a reason so many in this country have CC debt, huge house payments, etc and are burning the candle at both ends. And yes, a good portion is to blame on our politicians (both left and right) who I think have made some bad choices. But personal responsibility, along with not trying to constantly keep up with the Jones's, would go a long way towards a BUNCH of folks in this country having a healthier financial statement.

All that would result in more time and money for golf (felt I needed to tie this back in to the thread a bit lol!)

27

#28 MtlJeff

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 02:47 PM

50's and 60's is a LONG time ago man though haha, I grew up in the 80's in a single income family! And that was recently enough to have talking cars! ( in nightrider anyway)

Edited by MtlJeff, 18 February 2016 - 02:48 PM.

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#29 Bad9

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 02:48 PM

View Postthug the bunny, on 17 February 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

Regarding the skill vs. pace issue, I don't know how people can argue that pace has no relationship to skill level. If you are constantly hunting for your ball and taking 100 strokes to finish 18, and you multiply that by 4 golfers in a group, how are they supposed to get around in 3 hrs? Yes, yes, I also know (just like everyone who is going to reply with examples of high hc players they know who play fast) some high hc anomalies who move along nicely, but, for one thing, they have been playing for centuries, and for another thing, whenever I play with them I always think to myself if they had just taken their time with their PSR rather than just stepping up and swiping at the ball, they might have hit it better rather than the 100 yd skank into the weeds to the right, for which we will all have to spend another 2 minutes searching....

I find that many of the slowest players are the mid and low handicap guys who are doing the PSR's that instructors and the pros preach that they should be doing. They are also the ones most likely to insist on hunting for their ball endlessly to avoid taking a penalty and messing up their score.
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#30 MadGolfer76

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 04:13 PM

View PostMtlJeff, on 18 February 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

50's and 60's is a LONG time ago man though haha, I grew up in the 80's in a single income family! And that was recently enough to have talking cars! ( in nightrider anyway)

Didn't they have a reunion Night Rider special where they found KIT's AI in a box on a shelf after 20 years? They put him back together and he was a little pissed off?

Mizuno ST-180 10.5/Mitsubishi Tensei Blue 60s
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Mizuno Mp-54 3-Pw/Dynamic Gold s300
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