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Hogan: play closed to open clubface


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#1 provx

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 02:35 PM

i study hogans swing a lot, but something has been confusing me lately. i know hogan stated he thought the secret was to play golf with the clubface moving closed to square through impact. but also he fans the club open on the backswing and makes a swing where he can release as fast as possible without fearing the hook. i don't see hwo the open clubface at the top and playing from closed to square at impart go hand in hand.


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#2 slicefixer

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 03:22 PM

i hogan stated he thought the secret was to play golf with the clubface moving closed to square through impact.  


Could I ask you WHERE and from WHOM you got this information??  Email if you prefer........in all my years of studying Mr. Hogan......life/golf swing/career.......I've NEVER heard that un'.......like Vazquez and the right knee........

Anyway, Mr. Hogan defnitely did NOt go from "closed to open".......:bb2:

#3 hoganfan924

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 03:28 PM

View Postslicefixer, on Nov 14 2007, 03:22 PM, said:

i hogan stated he thought the secret was to play golf with the clubface moving closed to square through impact.  


Could I ask you WHERE and from WHOM you got this information??  Email if you prefer........in all my years of studying Mr. Hogan......life/golf swing/career.......I've NEVER heard that un'.......like Vazquez and the right knee........

Anyway, Mr. Hogan defnitely did NOt go from "closed to open".......:bb2:

Slice,

I vaugely recall something about this in Hardy's "master class" book, and we all know what you think about that :clapping:

Hardy did say something about how this had been "misinterpreted" over the years due to how golfers have changed the definition of what constitutes closed & square.

#4 provx

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 04:36 PM

ahh, of course it was from the master class book. because hogan's clubface was square to square throughout the swing it was defined as closed to open because back then the correct path of the clubface was thought to be open to closing around the swingpath. sorry for the confusion. i don't really "read" golf books because i think most the times the suggestions do more harm than good so in this case it led to a partially understanding of the material.

#5 slicefixer

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 08:57 PM

LOL........figures...... :bb2:

Hogan played from a square to open clubface which allowed him to "freewheel" AROUND (rotate HARD left) without fearing LEFt.........now, that being said he had a "shot" where he would intentionally "hold" the face what FELt like open well into his throughswing (more of a down the line "hold shot") and you can see the difference in some of his finishes.......Alexander's book has several still pics of this and it's plainly evident........but, make no mistake about it, with his "stock shot" he didn't block it one bit (close to open is a "block release".....which is the ultimate in contradiction of terms......hehehe...in the right hands it's a very effective way to play too.......:clapping:)

Edited by slicefixer, 14 November 2007 - 08:57 PM.


#6 scores

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 10:27 PM

Hoganfan924 stop reading that stuff its nbad for u r golf game

#7 slicefixer

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 11:31 PM

View Posthoganfan924, on Nov 14 2007, 04:28 PM, said:

View Postslicefixer, on Nov 14 2007, 03:22 PM, said:

i hogan stated he thought the secret was to play golf with the clubface moving closed to square through impact.  


Could I ask you WHERE and from WHOM you got this information??  Email if you prefer........in all my years of studying Mr. Hogan......life/golf swing/career.......I've NEVER heard that un'.......like Vazquez and the right knee........

Anyway, Mr. Hogan defnitely did NOt go from "closed to open".......:bb2:

Slice,

I vaugely recall something about this in Hardy's "master class" book, and we all know what you think about that :clapping:

Hardy did say something about how this had been "misinterpreted" over the years due to how golfers have changed the definition of what constitutes closed & square.


Well then, according to Hardy I might be wrong.....but, then again, Hardy has Hogan "starting lawnmowers" and then using a "throwover move" to overcome it....... :vava: hehehe........but, according to MY definition, Hogan was anything but "closed to open" and I've got a LOt of footage to prove it too.........;) :friends: :taunt:

Edited by slicefixer, 16 November 2007 - 08:31 AM.


#8 hoganfan924

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 08:31 AM

View Postscores, on Nov 15 2007, 10:27 PM, said:

Hoganfan924 stop reading that stuff its nbad for u r golf game

lol Scores,

Just 'cause I read them, doesn't mean I believe them.  I read a lot of golf books.  I like learning about different ideas and swing theories, it's the main thing that drew me to this board to begin with.  But, I also scrutinize what I read and if I cannot find supporting video (or good swing sequence) evidence or (in some cases) cannot duplicate a described motion in slow motion in a way that makes sense to me to produce the desired result, then I discard it.  I disagree with many of the golf swing ideas out there, and while Hardy has some good ideas, several of them I don't agree with.  Other books I think aren't worth the paper they're printed on.  I've found that many books and articles use reference materials that actually 100% contradict the theory that they are proposing.  Posting on this board led me to meet Slicefixer, who's ideas perfectly dovetailed with my own and filled in some of the holes in my swing knowledge.  I've yet to find any contradictions or inconsistencies in his swing theory.  As a result, this board has been more helpful to my golf swing and swing knowledge than any golf book I've ever read.

#9 slicefixer

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 08:35 AM

View Posthoganfan924, on Nov 16 2007, 09:31 AM, said:

View Postscores, on Nov 15 2007, 10:27 PM, said:

Hoganfan924 stop reading that stuff its nbad for u r golf game

lol Scores,

Just 'cause I read them, doesn't mean I believe them.  I read a lot of golf books.  I like learning about different ideas and swing theories, it's the main thing that drew me to this board to begin with.  But, I also scrutinize what I read and if I cannot find supporting video (or good swing sequence) evidence or (in some cases) cannot duplicate a described motion in slow motion in a way that makes sense to me to produce the desired result, then I discard it.  I disagree with many of the golf swing ideas out there, and while Hardy has some good ideas, several of them I don't agree with.  Other books I think aren't worth the paper they're printed on.  I've found that many books and articles use reference materials that actually 100% contradict the theory that they are proposing.  Posting on this board led me to meet Slicefixer, who's ideas perfectly dovetailed with my own and filled in some of the holes in my swing knowledge.  I've yet to find any contradictions or inconsistencies in his swing theory.  As a result, this board has been more helpful to my golf swing and swing knowledge than any golf book I've ever read.


Keep diggin'.......you'll find a hole eventually.......(clue me in when you do....... :bb2:)  (btw, thanks!)

#10 ej002

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 10:12 AM

I have a question - what exactly do you mean by closed to open / or square to open?  

From what i am getting from this post - is that you are talking about impact, and if that is the case, I cant comprehend how that happens.


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#11 mcputter

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 11:46 AM

View Postej002, on Nov 16 2007, 10:12 AM, said:

I have a question - what exactly do you mean by closed to open / or square to open?  

From what i am getting from this post - is that you are talking about impact, and if that is the case, I cant comprehend how that happens.

I believe this thread refers to having a shut or closed clubface at the top of the swing (clubface pointing at the sky) or shortly thereafter and coming down thru impact with a minimum of clubface or forearm rotation - Lee Trevino and David Duval come to mind. The closed clubface at the top can come from a strong grip, a bowed left wrist at the top, or both.

Regarding Ben Hogan, I may be all wrong, but I believe Tom Bertrand in his ...'Secrets..' book stated that (for a 'standard' shot) while Hogan had a cupped left wrist ('open' at the top), his first move down (not including the lower body move that initiated the downswing) was to uncup the left wrist-undo the 'twist' that he made during the takeaway and straighten or slightly bow the left wrist which would square or slightly 'close' the clubface to the swing arc, then he could simply rotate his body thru impact without any excess arm or hand rotation and hit that slight fade, effectively blocking out the left side of the course.

Maybe Tom will clarify, Schleeman where are you?
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#12 ej002

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 12:51 PM

View Postmcputter, on Nov 16 2007, 12:46 PM, said:

View Postej002, on Nov 16 2007, 10:12 AM, said:

I have a question - what exactly do you mean by closed to open / or square to open?  

From what i am getting from this post - is that you are talking about impact, and if that is the case, I cant comprehend how that happens.

I believe this thread refers to having a shut or closed clubface at the top of the swing (clubface pointing at the sky) or shortly thereafter and coming down thru impact with a minimum of clubface or forearm rotation - Lee Trevino and David Duval come to mind. The closed clubface at the top can come from a strong grip, a bowed left wrist at the top, or both.

Regarding Ben Hogan, I may be all wrong, but I believe Tom Bertrand in his ...'Secrets..' book stated that (for a 'standard' shot) while Hogan had a cupped left wrist ('open' at the top), his first move down (not including the lower body move that initiated the downswing) was to uncup the left wrist-undo the 'twist' that he made during the takeaway and straighten or slightly bow the left wrist which would square or slightly 'close' the clubface to the swing arc, then he could simply rotate his body thru impact without any excess arm or hand rotation and hit that slight fade, effectively blocking out the left side of the course.

Maybe Tom will clarify, Schleeman where are you?


To me what you say makes perfect sense.  But with the cupped wrist at top (open) going to square or closed by "uncupping" = "open - to - square/closed".    BUT the thread begins "closed to open"

So if Hogan's clubfaced is closed in relation to the arc on the way down, but then how could it OPEN again?

#13 mcputter

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 01:44 PM

To me what you say makes perfect sense.  But with the cupped wrist at top (open) going to square or closed by "uncupping" = "open - to - square/closed".    BUT the thread begins "closed to open"

So if Hogan's clubfaced is closed in relation to the arc on the way down, but then how could it OPEN again?
[/quote]

Well, I don't claim to have studied Hogan's swing like Slicefixer, Hoganfan, Schleeman and others have. I don't know if Hogan really did get into a slightly 'closed' position at some point early in his downswing or not; or if he felt like he did but really didn't (even for the greats, ''feel' isn't always real'). I just wanted to interject my recollection of Tom Bertrand's thoughts in his Hogan book on this matter.

  But it's easy to go from 'closed (to the arc, not to the target) to open' - just pull hard with minimal hand or forearm rotation and plenty of body rotation. Look at Trevino,  early and current David Duval swings (a couple of years ago I think he tried a weaker grip and more clubface rotation).

My point is, getting back to the apparent contradiction posed by the original poster, it could [u]both[/u] be true that Hogan played from a square or open position at the top, and that he played 'closed to open' if he did make a move early in his downswing that closed the clubface and then he held off the clubface rotation with his terrific body rotation.

Edited by mcputter, 16 November 2007 - 02:17 PM.

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#14 hoganfan924

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 02:30 PM

View Postej002, on Nov 16 2007, 12:51 PM, said:

View Postmcputter, on Nov 16 2007, 12:46 PM, said:

View Postej002, on Nov 16 2007, 10:12 AM, said:

I have a question - what exactly do you mean by closed to open / or square to open?  

From what i am getting from this post - is that you are talking about impact, and if that is the case, I cant comprehend how that happens.

I believe this thread refers to having a shut or closed clubface at the top of the swing (clubface pointing at the sky) or shortly thereafter and coming down thru impact with a minimum of clubface or forearm rotation - Lee Trevino and David Duval come to mind. The closed clubface at the top can come from a strong grip, a bowed left wrist at the top, or both.

Regarding Ben Hogan, I may be all wrong, but I believe Tom Bertrand in his ...'Secrets..' book stated that (for a 'standard' shot) while Hogan had a cupped left wrist ('open' at the top), his first move down (not including the lower body move that initiated the downswing) was to uncup the left wrist-undo the 'twist' that he made during the takeaway and straighten or slightly bow the left wrist which would square or slightly 'close' the clubface to the swing arc, then he could simply rotate his body thru impact without any excess arm or hand rotation and hit that slight fade, effectively blocking out the left side of the course.

Maybe Tom will clarify, Schleeman where are you?


To me what you say makes perfect sense.  But with the cupped wrist at top (open) going to square or closed by "uncupping" = "open - to - square/closed".    BUT the thread begins "closed to open"

So if Hogan's clubfaced is closed in relation to the arc on the way down, but then how could it OPEN again?

Erik,

reread the earlier posts.  The original premise of the thread that Hogan was "closed to open" is incorrect IMO, and Slicefixer's and Hardy's (who brought the point up originally in his Masters class book).  It's a matter of definition of terms.  

At the top of the backswing, I define square as the clubface being parallel to the leading arm forearm (left forearm for Hogan).  This is different than my (and most people's) definition of square at address.  I think almost everyone would agree that square at address would be where the clubface is perpendicular to the target line.  But in relation to the left forearm, this square to target line position at address is closed to the left forearm.  So the definition of square, changes with where you are in the swing and this can be very confusing.  It has to do with the fact that when you bend your right elbow (for a righty) in taking the club back, this naturally causes some left forearm rotation and the clubface to open relative to the swing arc.   So my definitions take this into account.

In my opinion based on what I've seen of the video evidence and my interpretation of what constitutes open, square and closed, for a stock shot, Hogan addressed the ball with a slightly open clubface and neutral to weak grip, he rotated his forearms, and cupped his left wrist in his backwing (which greatly assisted him in getting on his flattish swing plane), that put the face in a square to slightly open position at the top of his backswing.  In the downswing, he released the cup in his left wrist (mostly due to his lag), he rotated his body very hard, kept his upper left arm to ribcage pressure point, and delivered the clubface to the ball with a very slightly open face.  Slightly being somewhere around 1-3 degrees, IMO.  Hogan said himself, that if he wanted to draw the ball, he just dispensed with cupping the left wrist.

Hope that wasn't too confusing.

I'll add this thought which may help clarify the terms:

If there were no rotation of the clubface and shaft on the backswing, the cluface would remain perpendicular to the swing arc throughout.  Imagine a ferris wheel tipped over on a 45 deg. angle, the chairs remain perpendicular to the arc that they're travelling on.  If a clubface does that, the face would point to a location somewhere behind you and towards the sky at the top of the backswing.  By anyone's definintion, that would be severely closed.  So everyone has a definition of square at the top that takes clubface rotation into account to some degree.

Edited by hoganfan924, 16 November 2007 - 03:03 PM.


#15 ej002

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 07:34 PM

Hoganfan - you reaffirmed what I originally thought (but I was thinking open / closed in relation to the forearm the whole way - not the arc...)  Duh.  

I never really though about the face being closed in relation to the forearm at address... but it makes perfect sense.
thanks


#16 rok78

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 09:02 PM

I think it was said in bits and pieces, but I just want to make sure everyone's on the same page. In Hardy's book, when he is mentioning closed to open he is talking about hip high to hip high through impact. He is saying that if you believe the toe pointing straight up in these positions constitute a square clubface, then having the face perpindicular to the spine would give the appearance of being "closed" halfway down and "open" halfway through. He doesn't think there should be a big rolling of the forearms through impact, that this rotation should take place early in the downswing and late in the follow through.

I leave it up to you experts who have studied more Hogan than I to determine if it's what he did. But doing it the way Hardy describes had me playing with a nice fade where I felt I released fully through the ball.

But ask me about Hardy's backswing thoughts and I'll not be so agreeable.
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#17 slicefixer

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 09:14 PM

View Postrok78, on Nov 16 2007, 10:02 PM, said:

I think it was said in bits and pieces, but I just want to make sure everyone's on the same page. In Hardy's book, when he is mentioning closed to open he is talking about hip high to hip high through impact. He is saying that if you believe the toe pointing straight up in these positions constitute a square clubface, then having the face perpindicular to the spine would give the appearance of being "closed" halfway down and "open" halfway through. He doesn't think there should be a big rolling of the forearms through impact, that this rotation should take place early in the downswing and late in the follow through.

I leave it up to you experts who have studied more Hogan than I to determine if it's what he did. But doing it the way Hardy describes had me playing with a nice fade where I felt I released fully through the ball.

But ask me about Hardy's backswing thoughts and I'll not be so agreeable.


OK, I CAN buy that........."perpindicular to the arc" from hip high to hip high........friggin' SEMANtICS........ :bb2:  SOME of Hogan's swings would definitely qualify.......100%........now, as for "starting lawnmowers".......:clapping: :vava:

Edited by slicefixer, 16 November 2007 - 09:59 PM.


#18 birdie_man

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 08:20 PM

View Posthoganfan924, on Nov 16 2007, 02:30 PM, said:

Hogan said himself, that if he wanted to draw the ball, he just dispensed with cupping the left wrist.

For real?

#19 hoganfan924

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 08:23 PM

View Postbirdie_man, on Nov 18 2007, 08:20 PM, said:

View Posthoganfan924, on Nov 16 2007, 02:30 PM, said:

Hogan said himself, that if he wanted to draw the ball, he just dispensed with cupping the left wrist.

For real?

Yes, for real.  From his 8/8/1955 Life magazine article where he revealed his "secret."

#20 birdie_man

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 11:37 PM

Oh cool.  I didn't know that.  Ya learn something new everyday, ya do. :shout:

Thanks sir.


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#21 hoganfan924

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 11:59 PM

View Postbirdie_man, on Nov 18 2007, 11:37 PM, said:

Oh cool.  I didn't know that.  Ya learn something new everyday, ya do. :shout:

Thanks sir.

Now the only question is, "should we believe him?"




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