[lake]

Wanted to see if anybody has had the chance to read VJ Trolio's book on "The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secret Puzzle." VJ is the teaching professional at Old Waverly Golf Club in West Point, MS. He is also TGM/MORAD trained.

[hayam]

CO- Inventor of the putting ARC.

[hoganfan924]

Nope. Hadn't even heard about it until last week. I'll probably pick up a copy sometime in the near future. I'd be happy to provide a review at that time. Pretty unlikely that there's something new in it though.

[jeffy]

I just read it and liked it a lot. Some original thinking for a change. In essence, he focuses on what some others have said about Hogan: that he gets his weight over the left leg by the end of his backswing, so he can start the downswing with just a turn of the hips (as he says many times in "Five Lessons").

The author relies a lot on the driver footage of Hogan from "In Pursuit of Perfection" that was shot from directly behind him. His arguments are well thought out and he ties them in nicely with "Five Lessons" and the 1955 Life magazine article. He is convinced that Hogan withheld this information deliberately. Whether he did or not, the author makes a pretty good case that this was a mostly overlooked feature of Hogan's swing. I recommend it.

[MWL]

jeffy, on Nov 2 2007, 09:07 PM, said:

In essence, he focuses on what some others have said about Hogan: that he gets his weight over the left leg by the end of his backswing, so he can start the downswing with just a turn of the hips (as he says many times in "Five Lessons").

I think I am going to write a hogan book stating that he hit the ball whilst standing on his head..

[slicefixer]

jeffy, on Nov 2 2007, 09:07 PM, said:

I just read it and liked it a lot. Some original thinking for a change. In essence, he focuses on what some others have said about Hogan: that he gets his weight over the left leg by the end of his backswing, so he can start the downswing with just a turn of the hips (as he says many times in "Five Lessons").

The author relies a lot on the driver footage of Hogan from "In Pursuit of Perfection" that was shot from directly behind him. His arguments are well thought out and he ties them in nicely with "Five Lessons" and the 1955 Life magazine article. He is convinced that Hogan withheld this information deliberately. Whether he did or not, the author makes a pretty good case that this was a mostly overlooked feature of Hogan's swing. I recommend it.

LOL.......he's correct, but, hardly original.........Some folk's have been saying and pointing this out for, oh, 20 years or more........

[hoganfan924]

jeffy, on Nov 2 2007, 09:07 PM, said:

I just read it and liked it a lot. Some original thinking for a change. In essence, he focuses on what some others have said about Hogan: that he gets his weight over the left leg by the end of his backswing, so he can start the downswing with just a turn of the hips (as he says many times in "Five Lessons").

The author relies a lot on the driver footage of Hogan from "In Pursuit of Perfection" that was shot from directly behind him. His arguments are well thought out and he ties them in nicely with "Five Lessons" and the 1955 Life magazine article. He is convinced that Hogan withheld this information deliberately. Whether he did or not, the author makes a pretty good case that this was a mostly overlooked feature of Hogan's swing. I recommend it.

If that's the "missing piece," I won't bother picking up the book. Hogan's unique pivot is something that should catch the eye of anyone with decent swing knowledge after only examining his swing footage for a few minutes (particularly if they can frame by frame it).
How many times have you seen Slicefixer post on here about "Turning into the right leg and sitting on the left leg?" Why, here's one that's almost 2 years old!:
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?s=...st&p=104709

[btk_1]

Bump... I have to agree with Jeffy that the new VJ Trolio book is a good read and worthy of further discussion on this forum.

In a nutshell, Trolio's swing method has two key aspects: a fixed ball position and a specific backswing pivot motion...

He advises the strict use of Hogan's ball position... spotted a half inch to an inch inside the left heel. With the golfer's weight distributed 50/50... the backswing begins with the hands/arms/shoulders (in that order) moving away from the target... to add momentum, during the first 12" the club travels back, he wants the golfer to shift an additional 10% of their weight to the right foot (while maintaining the right knee flex (throughout the swing))... and when the hands reach hip height the hips begin to rotate clockwise AND AT THE SAME TIME the pelvis moves laterally toward the target. He wants the hips to have turned 45 degrees and 80% of the golfer's weight to have shifted to the left foot AS the backswing ends... and then the downswing starts with ONLY the hips rotating counter-clockwise (NO lateral motion is required because the golfer has already shifted their center of gravity over to their left pivot axis which runs along the inside of the left leg).

In a rear image of Hogan hitting a driver, Trolio makes markings (and gives calculations) that reveal that Hogan's pelvis (hips) move laterally about 4 1/2" toward the target during the backswing.

btk_1

[JeffMann]

How does he prove that Hogan has most of his weight over the left foot at the end-backswing position.

Jeff.

[Lsutiger]

I do not know VJ personally, but I am playing golf with him next Tuesday at Old Waverly. A friend of mine knows him really good. I will ask a couple of questions about the book. Will update later.

[hoganfan924]

Nothing new there btk (I hope you're not from Witchita!*). I'd certainly question the 80% weight on the left foot though. Perhaps what VJ was never informed of was that Hogan didn't like this aspect of his own swing. A very,very reliable source informed me that Hogan had to set up more 50/50 because of his battered left side (post accident) and create the hip slide in his backswing. He did not teach that move to others and would tell them when questioned about it "Why would you want to swing like a cripple!"

That's why I'm not bothering to pick up the book. Slicefixer already has me working on a set-up and pivot that will get me close to Hogan's position without the extra slide.

*BTK - Bind, Torture, Kill - Code name of a serial killer from Witchita named Dennis Rader (guess I watch too much "forensic files!")

[btk_1]

JeffMann, on Nov 29 2007, 05:24 PM, said:

How does he prove that Hogan has most of his weight over the left foot at the end-backswing position.

Jeff.

Jeffman,

I don't recall Trolio proving how much weight Hogan moved over to his left foot in his calculations... it could be his implication taken from viewing how far Hogan's center of gravity moves in the rearview image (he defines the center of gravity as 1 1/2" below the navel and between the navel and spine - and closer to the spine).

Something I should add that I didn't mention is (as you know) Hogan's head stays steady throughout his pivot motion... therefore, his spine angle tilt to the right (set at address) increases as the lumbar moves laterally left during the backswing.

btk_1

[Roy D Mercer]

"..Hogan didn't like this aspect of his own swing"

[Roy D Mercer]

"Hogan didn't like this aspect of his own swing" ???

I'm calling you out.

I've never, ever, heard, read, or seen that remark attributed to Hogan directly or by any of his fellow Colonial members, friends, colleagues, pros, book, video, or interview. I doubt that Ben Hogan didn't like anything about his own golf swing givin he was just about the hardest working S.O.B. ever to play this stinking game. If he kept something in his game there was a reason as it had proven itself under the harshest of tournament tests. He never considered himself a cripple either.

Roy D.

[themouth1]

Roy D Mercer, on Nov 30 2007, 01:22 PM, said:

"Hogan didn't like this aspect of his own swing" ???

I'm calling you out.

I've never, ever, heard, read, or seen that remark attributed to Hogan directly or by any of his fellow Colonial members, friends, colleagues, pros, book, video, or interview. I doubt that Ben Hogan didn't like anything about his own golf swing givin he was just about the hardest working S.O.B. ever to play this stinking game. If he kept something in his game there was a reason as it had proven itself under the harshest of tournament tests. He never considered himself a cripple either.

Roy D.

What a surprise. Roy D Mercer calling someone out..."Just how big a boy are you?"...

[lake]

Roy D Mercer, on Nov 30 2007, 05:22 PM, said:

I'm calling you out.

Roy D.

How big a boy r ya? Coudn't resist.... Did you get a chance to read the book and if so what did you think?

[hoganfan924]

Roy D Mercer, on Nov 30 2007, 06:22 PM, said:

"Hogan didn't like this aspect of his own swing" ???

I'm calling you out.

I've never, ever, heard, read, or seen that remark attributed to Hogan directly or by any of his fellow Colonial members, friends, colleagues, pros, book, video, or interview. I doubt that Ben Hogan didn't like anything about his own golf swing givin he was just about the hardest working S.O.B. ever to play this stinking game. If he kept something in his game there was a reason as it had proven itself under the harshest of tournament tests. He never considered himself a cripple either.

Roy D.

Don't have to believe it if you don't want to. Was told to me by Tom Bertrand, who worked with John Schlee (who took lessons for several years from Hogan). Bertrand helped Schlee write "Maximum Golf" which had much of it's basis (as I understand it) in what Schlee learned from Hogan. Bertrand wrote "The Secret of Hogan's Swing." Haven't read Maximum Golf myself, but I'm told that Schlee advocated an "impact fix" type of set-up with more of a pure rotary motion.

[slicefixer]

Roy D Mercer, on Nov 30 2007, 07:22 PM, said:

"Hogan didn't like this aspect of his own swing" ???

I'm calling you out.

I've never, ever, heard, read, or seen that remark attributed to Hogan directly or by any of his fellow Colonial members, friends, colleagues, pros, book, video, or interview. I doubt that Ben Hogan didn't like anything about his own golf swing givin he was just about the hardest working S.O.B. ever to play this stinking game. If he kept something in his game there was a reason as it had proven itself under the harshest of tournament tests. He never considered himself a cripple either.

Roy D.

(first of all, due to your "handle," I have a hunch your a "sheeet disturber" rather than seriously trying to make a point....

Roy, your wrong......go get yourself a copy of the Venturi interview and you can HEAR it and SEE it coming from the man's mouth........he criticizes his own swing/game on several occasions and VERY "harshly" IMOP.....you can also buy a copy of John Schlee's "Maximum Golf" tapes/book on Ebay (IF you can find one) and you'll see/read the quotes for yourself........just because you know some members @ Colonial or your a "member @ Colonial" doesn't mean you know much at all.......I KNOW several members @ Colonial, have played there on numerous occasions over the years (in fact, one of my best buddies/golf students is one of the best players EVER to come out of Colonial), and have found, as a whole, they don't know much about the man at all and, believe you me, I ASKED..........now, Shady is a different story, as I'm sure you know, or should know, Mr. Hogan spent basically NO time at Colonial once Shady was built.......don't know the exact year Shady was built, but, it's been around for quite some time........at least the mid 60's/late 50's........he died on July 25, 1997 so it could have been as long as 40 years since he'd spent any significant amount of time @ Colonial.......So, I ask you, as Mr. Hogan was a VERY private person, how much could these "Colonial members" really know?

Go do some REAL research before you "call out" a person who's dedicated years and years of his time/money to RESEARCH the man, his golf swing, and golf game.........to say you haven't heard this remark "by any of his fellow Colonial members" and because of that fact you REALLY "know" Mr. Hogan and are some kind of "Hogan expert" is a bit of a joke.......IMOP.....bout' like saying, "I'm from Ft. Worth so I KNOW Mr. Hogan".......but, go get the Venturi inteview, Schlee's book, or even "Hard Case From Texas" and you CAN see/read/hear for yourself........

[Swingtheclub]

It never fails to amaze me how much you guys worship the swing of a man that played his last competitive golf before most of you were born

Heck the only things I remember him playing in was the 66 masters and a shells wonderful world of golf with Sam Snead.

That and remember I am old.

Now do not get me wrong, although I do not agree with a lot of things in the Hogan swing, I certainly do not dismiss it. Or his contribution to the game.

I just do not understand how you guys talk about him like he was a god or something or why anyone would want to write a book about the missing secret.

I guess its the same type of thing as the people that worship Moe Norman and his golf swing.

Its funny Trevino may be the best ball striker since Hogan and no one wants to copy his swing.

[slicefixer]

kenk7us2002, on Nov 30 2007, 09:57 PM, said:

It never fails to amaze me how much you guys worship the swing of a man that played his last competitive golf before most of you were born

Heck the only things I remember him playing in was the 66 masters and a shells wonderful world of golf with Sam Snead.

That and remember I am old.

Now do not get me wrong, although I do not agree with a lot of things in the Hogan swing, I certainly do not dismiss it. Or his contribution to the game.

I just do not understand how you guys talk about him like he was a god or something or why anyone would want to write a book about the missing secret.

I guess its the same type of thing as the people that worship Moe Norman and his golf swing.

Its funny Trevino may be the best ball striker since Hogan and no one wants to copy his swing.

Well, I grew up around a VERY successful PGA Tour player who was very good friends with Mr. Hogan so that got me started.......then when I was a young boy and already a golf nut, I watched "Follow the Sun" and that added to my admiration for the man........then, my father, uncle, and I were following Miller @ Colonial one year in the late 60's (when I was a wee pup) and low and behold Mr. Hogan was walking between 6 tee and 7 green and my father saw him.......told me, "there goes the great Ben Hogan"........I didn't believe him as he and my uncle were constantly "yankin' my chain"......but after the 3rd time he told me this I KNEW he wasn't kidding.......I ran down the rough between 6 and 7 fwy's and caught him.........tugged at his sweater........asked him, "are you the great Ben Hogan?"........he smiled, tossled my hair, put his arm around me and we walked an visited for about 50 - 100 yards, whereupon he tossled my hair again, and signed my lil' badge and wished me great luck with my golf game.........so that's why I "worship" the man to an extent......plus, I was playing @ Shady Oaks in 84' with a member who was a dear friend of Mr.Hogan......after the round he introduced me to him again........spoke for coupla' minutes.......priceless.........this same man made it possible for me to actually watch Mr. Hogan hit balls (from about 200 yards away) oneday when he was practicing on the short course @ Shady....it's either a short course or an extra nine, can't remember.....doesn't matter anyway.......he was preparing to go shoot some ads @ Riviera for the Hogan Company..........anyway, he was practicing to prepare himself and his swing for the shoot........and he WAS a "cripple' as he could barely walk from the pile of balls to the cart and back, but, when that club was inserted into his hands it was exactly like pluggin' an extension cord into a fine piece of machinary.......he came to life.......still pured it even though he as 71 years old and crippled...........That's WHY I have an unending fascination and admiration for the man.........he overcame the suicide of his dad when he was 8 or 9........had NO money growing up.....POOR.......was tormented by the other caddies at Glen Garden due to his small size.......ran out of money on 3 different occasions when he first turned professional while all the while his childhood buddy, Byron Nelson, was kickin' butt..........then, right when all of his hard work was paying off, he's almost killed in an auto accident......told he might not walk again and that "tournament golf" was DEFINITELY over.......less than a year later he loses to Snead in a playoff at LA......hell, I could go on and on and on with different reasons to admire the man.......most wouldn't involve his golf swing at all.........truth be told, I admire Mr. Hogan MORE for his perseverance, heart, guts, determination, and his willingness to NOT let "life" keep him from succeeding........probably more than I do his golf swing.........I believe in LEARNING from Mr. Hogan's golf swing and NOT copying it anyway........

As for Trevino, who says "nobody has tried to copy him"........hehehe.........first of all I don't believe in "copying" anyone.....you should LEARN from them and "paint the picture your way".......but, as far as my beliefs go, Trevino had a TREMENDOUS effect on me and my understanding of what's important in a golf swing..........can't speak for other's though.............

BTW Ken, Merry Christmas!

[MrMom]

To stir the pot, and this goes out to Slicefixer because maybe he can add some light for me.

I am only commenting on "THE missing secret" to Hogan's swing. Now before I get started I have yet to reach the big 40, but I am close. I also can hardly remember much of Palmer. I only heard about Hogan, but while I was reading one of the major golf magazines in the past three or so years I read a small article that contained an interview with Hogan's caddie. Not knowing much about Hogan it did stand out and I remember it vividly. The caddie mentioned the secrect had to do with something about the right knee, and the caddie did not elaborate. If anyone else remembers the exact article can you please note what magazine and issue for me please.

I am not a swing expert, and I have a personal guess for what the secret is. But seeing how I am not an expert and not up for being slammed like others I will refrain, but if others had an educated repsonse to how the right knee contains the secret I would appreciate any input.

Thank you for the review it means I do not need to get it now. I will be interested in Slicefixers book when he gets it ready.

[slicefixer]

MrMom, on Nov 30 2007, 10:19 PM, said:

To stir the pot, and this goes out to Slicefixer because maybe he can add some light for me.

I am only commenting on "THE missing secret" to Hogan's swing. Now before I get started I have yet to reach the big 40, but I am close. I also can hardly remember much of Palmer. I only heard about Hogan, but while I was reading one of the major golf magazines in the past three or so years I read a small article that contained an interview with Hogan's caddie. Not knowing much about Hogan it did stand out and I remember it vividly. The caddie mentioned the secrect had to do with something about the right knee, and the caddie did not elaborate. If anyone else remembers the exact article can you please note what magazine and issue for me please.

I am not a swing expert, and I have a personal guess for what the secret is. But seeing how I am not an expert and not up for being slammed like others I will refrain, but if others had an educated repsonse to how the right knee contains the secret I would appreciate any input.

Thank you for the review it means I do not need to get it now. I will be interested in Slicefixers book when he gets it ready.

Jody Vasquez......good player from Ft. Worth......actually worked for the Hogan Co.......nice guy.......shagged balls for Mr. Hogan for a year or so +/-........I think his right knee being the secret is BS.....but that's just MOP.......there is a thread from a coupla' weeks ago that deals directly with this whole "right knee" deal.......do a search on Jody Vasquez and you'll find it.......and IF I were to write a book about my thoughts on the golf swing, I'll guarantee you it won't be designed to "pimp" off of Mr. Hogan....... IMOP, that can't be said of a bunch of these "Hogan Secret" experts..........NEVER ceases to amaze me how these guy's who KNOW "Hogan's Secret" NEVER MENTIONED A WORD until both he and Mrs. Hogan were long gone...........hard to dispute something when your not around ta' do it........

[Swingtheclub]

Slice I was not trying to rag on anyone for Hogan worship. Just point out that it exist. You make a point about Byron who was kicking Hogans butt and for a while there everyone elses behind.

Many people call him the father of the modern golf swing. Yet on this forum all I hear about his Hogan.

I too admire the man I think he had a great career and was and incredible athlete. I also was a big fan of Follow the Sun.

I just was never a big fan of his golf swing or his books.

Merry Christmas to you Slice

[lake]

I love to watch the players of yesterday vs. today mainly because of their freedom of motion. I think a lack of video analysis lubed their joints!! Also, OEM's of today sell clubs that are light(swingweight) and feel is sacrificed for distance. When you watch Hogan's video at Seminole Golf Club he does a few slow motion swings that you can see the FEEL screaming on the screen. One of the ladies present asked, "Benny, why are swinging so slow?" Hogan replied, "At this pace I can control the golf club and everything in my swing. Whenever I'm working on something I always do it in slow motion. That way I can monitor what I'm doing." I recently witnessed a former PGA Tour player doing a similar demonstration and it was remarkable.
http://lynnblakegolf...ery.php?cat=516 Click on Hogan Home Video

As far as Mr. Hogan's secret, I personally feel that it is buried in red clay. I think it is fun to discuss his motion and what made the swing work for him...but in the long run each of us have to find our own secret. There are only a few instructors that I've witnessed that have been able to communicate the right thing(secret), in the right way for that particular individual.

Do any of ya'll still write in cursive...that's what I thought Ben Hogan's swing is written in cursive just like his logo!!!!

Cool picture of Mr. Hogan having some fun:

Attached File(s)

•  hoganhavingfun.jpg (98.21K)
  Number of downloads: 28

[slicefixer]

kenk7us2002, on Nov 30 2007, 11:59 PM, said:

Slice I was not trying to rag on anyone for Hogan worship. Just point out that it exist. You make a point about Byron who was kicking Hogans butt and for a while there everyone elses behind.

Many people call him the father of the modern golf swing. Yet on this forum all I hear about his Hogan.

I too admire the man I think he had a great career and was and incredible athlete. I also was a big fan of Follow the Sun.

I just was never a big fan of his golf swing or his books.

Merry Christmas to you Slice

LOL.....I KNOW you weren't trying to do anything beyond asking the question, "hey, why all the adulation/worship of Hogan.......there's been LOTS of other great players"....... BTW, I can 100% understand why a LOT of people would think EXACTLY the same........anyway, I was in NO way offended or anything of the sort........and MY reasons for thinking so much of Mr. Hogan are listed above.....

Btw, IMOP, Mr. Nelson wasn't the father of the modern golf swing, Hogan/Snead were as they were they first I can find who "released the club left" which, IMOP, was/is the best way to release a STEEL shaft IF you want both CONSISTENT DISTANCE and ACCURACY......

[slicefixer]

lakewoodgcc, on Dec 1 2007, 12:19 AM, said:

I love to watch the players of yesterday vs. today mainly because of their freedom of motion. I think a lack of video analysis lubed their joints!! Also, OEM's of today sell clubs that are light(swingweight) and feel is sacrificed for distance. When you watch Hogan's video at Seminole Golf Club he does a few slow motion swings that you can see the FEEL screaming on the screen. One of the ladies present asked, "Benny, why are swinging so slow?" Hogan replied, "At this pace I can control the golf club and everything in my swing. Whenever I'm working on something I always do it in slow motion. That way I can monitor what I'm doing." I recently witnessed a former PGA Tour player doing a similar demonstration and it was remarkable.
http://lynnblakegolf...ery.php?cat=516 Click on Hogan Home Video

As far as Mr. Hogan's secret, I personally feel that it is buried in red clay. I think it is fun to discuss his motion and what made the swing work for him...but in the long run each of us have to find our own secret. There are only a few instructors that I've witnessed that have been able to communicate the right thing(secret), in the right way for that particular individual.

Do any of ya'll still write in cursive...that's what I thought Ben Hogan's swing is written in cursive just like his logo!!!!

Cool picture of Mr. Hogan having some fun:

hehehe.......I tell folk's all day long every single day........"IF you really want to learn something you need to do it 60 times per day/session and in SLOW motion".....meaning not only should you actually strike a golf ball doing a particular drill 60 times in a row, but, you should also make sure and perform 60 reps in a row in SLOOOOOW motion......."IF you do something SLOW enough your brain can stay ahead of your body and you can WALK yourself through a great golf swing"........ As far as looking at "old swings" I LUV to do it too.......the Hogan tape "Hard Case From Texas" contains more classic swing footage of basically all the greats collectively than any other single source I've ever seen........SOMEBODY did a helluva' LOT of research producing those videos.......it's a BRILLIANT "looK" at Mr. Hogan......best, by far, I've seen or read period.......and I LUV Sampson's book too...........

[Swingtheclub]

Lake and Slice

You want to mess up someones mind that thinks they can play and have control of their golf swing.

Have them make a full swing in length with a driver, lets say they hit the ball 250 then tell them to make the same swing and hit it 200 yds just slow the speed.

I find that about 35 percent can manage this they are usually pretty proud of themselves

Then tell then to hit it 125 yds with the same swing just slow it down trust me they are done.

I used to do these demo's in my clinics.

Its like these guys in the big break when they pick a target 135 yds away and make them hit three different clubs to it.

Thats bread and butter to me I can control my swing speed I actually hit those type shots when I play.

Most kids today got one shot hard.

[Swingtheclub]

Lake and Slice

You want to mess up someones mind that thinks they can play and have control of their golf swing.

Have them make a full swing in length with a driver, lets say they hit the ball 250 then tell them to make the same swing and hit it 200 yds just slow the speed.

I find that about 35 percent can manage this they are usually pretty proud of themselves

Then tell then to hit it 125 yds with the same swing just slow it down trust me they are done.

I used to do these demo's in my clinics.

Its like these guys in the big break when they pick a target 135 yds away and make them hit three different clubs to it.

Thats bread and butter to me I can control my swing speed I actually hit those type shots when I play.

Most kids today got one shot hard.

[fendero]

For those looking the "Hard Case" DVD is on ebay.uk right now for about $24 USD including shipping. It looked like the seller had about 17 left.

[JeffMann]

btk-1

I am aware that Hogan shifted his pelvis left-laterally in the late backswing, and that would shift the weight of his lower body to the left. However, I suspect that the amount of weight shift due to this lower body move is very small in magnitude. By contrast, his spine is tilted to the right which means that his upper body and head is to the right of center. Then factor in the weight of his arms and club, which are all to the right of center, and explain to me how he could have most of his body weight on his left side at the end-backswing position.

Jeff.

[btk_1]

JeffMann, on Dec 1 2007, 08:49 AM, said:

btk-1

I am aware that Hogan shifted his pelvis left-laterally in the late backswing, and that would shift the weight of his lower body to the left. However, I suspect that the amount of weight shift due to this lower body move is very small in magnitude. By contrast, his spine is tilted to the right which means that his upper body and head is to the right of center. Then factor in the weight of his arms and club, which are all to the right of center, and explain to me how he could have most of his body weight on his left side at the end-backswing position.

Jeff.

JeffMan,

Thanks for your comments... I was hoping you would pipe in because I've read your pivot paper article and you seem to have a good grasp of human anatomy and what should be moving in a proper pivot motion.

As I stated previously, I don't think Trolio specifically proves how much weight Hogan transfers to his left foot in the backswing. You bring up some good points about the effect of the weight of the upper body/head/arms/club being right of center at the end-backswing position and how this might limit the weight transfer to the left foot.

If you had to estimate, what amount of weight do you think a golfer needs to transfer to their left foot to accomplish moving their center of gravity to their left pivot point at the end-backswing position -- thus permitting the golfer to start their downswing with an aggressive turn of the hips?

btk_1

[birdie_man]

slicefixer, on Nov 30 2007, 09:36 PM, said:

Jody Vasquez......good player from Ft. Worth......actually worked for the Hogan Co.......nice guy.......shagged balls for Mr. Hogan for a year or so +/-........I think his right knee being the secret is BS.....but that's just MOP.......there is a thread from a coupla' weeks ago that deals directly with this whole "right knee" deal.......do a search on Jody Vasquez and you'll find it.......and IF I were to write a book about my thoughts on the golf swing, I'll guarantee you it won't be designed to "pimp" off of Mr. Hogan....... IMOP, that can't be said of a bunch of these "Hogan Secret" experts..........NEVER ceases to amaze me how these guy's who KNOW "Hogan's Secret" NEVER MENTIONED A WORD until both he and Mrs. Hogan were long gone...........hard to dispute something when your not around ta' do it........

I agree 100%. There's a lot of money out there if you can convince people you know something about Hogan.

To me, if anything had to do with his right knee I think at best it was a personal "feel" or an image that helped Hogan. Some kind of "trigger" for his downswing. And that's a maybe cause I'm not sure if he talked about it himself.

And if it is something Hogan actually did I don't think it's something that...

1. would be worthy of being called any kind of all-important "secret"

2. could really help too many others (it's just a personal trigger if anything)

I mean...........you read so much of this stuff..........I even read something the other day about Hogan precisely controlling his distance with the movement of his right knee. I almost $h!t a cinder block.

[JeffMann]

btk-1

You ask-: "If you had to estimate, what amount of weight do you think a golfer needs to transfer to their left foot to accomplish moving their center of gravity to their left pivot point at the end-backswing position -- thus permitting the golfer to start their downswing with an aggressive turn of the hips?"

I don't know if I really understand your question. I agree that one should start the downswing with an active turn of the hips, but I cannot understand why one would want one's weight already over the left pivot point at the end-backswng position. I think that it is biomechanically much better to have one's COG slightly to the right of the left pivot point at the start of the downswing. Then, by moving the COG leftwards at the start of the downswing, the torso acquires enough momentum to pivot effectively over the straightening left leg. If the COG is already over the left leg, then I think that it is much more difficult to create enough torso momentum to pivot efficiently. The S&T golfers have to use an unnatural hip thrusting maneuver to accomplish this goal because I think that they have too much weight over the left leg at the end-backswing position (IMPO - I think that it is unnatural). Ben Hogan never performed a hip thrusting maneuver. Look how much he shifted his pelvis left-laterally at the start of the downswing before he starts to pivot left-backwards around the left leg.



Jeff.

[birdie_man]

lakewoodgcc, on Nov 30 2007, 11:19 PM, said:

I love to watch the players of yesterday vs. today mainly because of their freedom of motion. I think a lack of video analysis lubed their joints!!

Agreed! You only concern yourself with how to make the ball go where it needs to go. With more emphasis on the motion "as a whole." Or at least I would say- video makes it easy for some players to get caught up in positions that don't necessarily mean anything.

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Also, OEM's of today sell clubs that are light(swingweight) and feel is sacrificed for distance.

Agreed again...! Better feel and more to load at the top....and more to pull on on the way down. I get better feel and feel like I get better impact alignments and better wallop of that ball. My next set will be at least D5 I think.

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As far as Mr. Hogan's secret, I personally feel that it is buried in red clay. I think it is fun to discuss his motion and what made the swing work for him...but in the long run each of us have to find our own secret. There are only a few instructors that I've witnessed that have been able to communicate the right thing(secret), in the right way for that particular individual.

Annnnnd- ag-reid.

There are answers out there cause every player is doing "something." (even the bad ones) There's for sure mechanics to be learned from Hogan too. (obviously)

But ya gotta know that everyone's got some different tendencies. You gotta "dig it out" yourself. Persevere. There's really nothing more important IMO.

[slicefixer]

JeffMann, on Dec 1 2007, 10:49 AM, said:

btk-1

I am aware that Hogan shifted his pelvis left-laterally in the late backswing, and that would shift the weight of his lower body to the left. However, I suspect that the amount of weight shift due to this lower body move is very small in magnitude. By contrast, his spine is tilted to the right which means that his upper body and head is to the right of center. Then factor in the weight of his arms and club, which are all to the right of center, and explain to me how he could have most of his body weight on his left side at the end-backswing position.

Jeff.

Easy.....he didn't......

[slicefixer]

JeffMann, on Dec 1 2007, 12:58 PM, said:

btk-1

You ask-: "If you had to estimate, what amount of weight do you think a golfer needs to transfer to their left foot to accomplish moving their center of gravity to their left pivot point at the end-backswing position -- thus permitting the golfer to start their downswing with an aggressive turn of the hips?"

I don't know if I really understand your question. I agree that one should start the downswing with an active turn of the hips, but I cannot understand why one would want one's weight already over the left pivot point at the end-backswng position. I think that it is biomechanically much better to have one's COG slightly to the right of the left pivot point at the start of the downswing. Then, by moving the COG leftwards at the start of the downswing, the torso acquires enough momentum to pivot effectively over the straightening left leg. If the COG is already over the left leg, then I think that it is much more difficult to create enough torso momentum to pivot efficiently. The S&T golfers have to use an unnatural hip thrusting maneuver to accomplish this goal because I think that they have too much weight over the left leg at the end-backswing position (IMPO - I think that it is unnatural). Ben Hogan never performed a hip thrusting maneuver. Look how much he shifted his pelvis left-laterally at the start of the downswing before he starts to pivot left-backwards around the left leg.



Jeff.

In that pic, which is from Tamarisk in Palms Springs, I ask you guy's this......does it look like he's "driving his right knee" or "running his right knee" at the ball/target line........... (I'll tell you what IS happening......the LEFT SIDE (primarily the left latisimus dorsi) is stretched out like a huge rubber band by his backswing pivot........in the pics it's simply "snapping back" which is why the left side is clearing out so beautifully so he can smack all hell from it with his right side........IF he were "running his right knee" then the footwork would be a LOT different.......IMOP)

[JeffMann]

SF - I don't think that he is driving his right knee actively towards the ball-target line. I think that the right knee moves near-passively, secondary to a rotation movement of the pelvis (left hip clearing action).

Jeff.

[RighttoLeft]

[btk_1]

JeffMan,

Trolio states that Hogan moved his center of gravity (defined at setup as exactly between his feet and "closer to his heels than his toes") onto his pivot axis (defined as anchored in his left foot, extending upward, approximately following his left leg) during his backswing... furthermore, he states that he transfers about 80% of his weight to his left foot to accomplish this. I'll restate my question slightly differently this time... if you had to estimate, what amount of weight do you think Hogan would have to transfer to his left foot to accomplish moving his center of gravity onto his pivot axis?

Here's some of Trolio's remarks that touch on your questions:

Trolio feels from a physics standpoint that the closer the center of gravity is to the pivot axis at the end-backswing, the faster a golfer can rotate their hips (body) to start the downswing. He shows a formula - according to Newton's Second Law of rotational motion - that proves maximum acceleration occurs when the center of gravity of an object is located on the pivot axis.

Trolio does mention where he feels the force comes from to initiate the hip turn that starts the downswing. He states it starts with the right foot, specifically the inside edge or instep of the right foot and then the right toe -- he relates this to Hogan's use of an extra spike in the toe of each shoe. He demonstrates by making the backswing motion with ALL the weight on the left foot, and with the right foot slightly off the ground, that it is very difficult to make a rapid hip turn to start the downswing. He further states that you can turn either the shoulders and torso to make your hips rotate, or use the muscles in your left leg to start the rotation, but he feels both are very weak moves.

Trolio bases his analysis mainly on Hogan's swings in Clem Darracott's video "Ben Hogan: In Pursuit of Perfection" filmed during the 1967 Masters -- in which Hogan stated about Saturday's back nine 30 "I think I played the best golf of my life on those last nine holes. I don't think I came close to missing a shot." Trolio further states that most films of Hogan don't show the degree of forward lateral hip movement in the backswing that Darracott's video shows. However, he states that most of the sequence shots of his swing were NOT taken while he competed or when he was preparing for competition. He mentions Hogan was very careful about whom he allowed to film his swing and analysis of post-accident swing footage reveals that his swings differed from his swings in competition.

Thanks, btk_1

[JeffMann]

btk-1

I cannot quantitate the magnitude of the amount of weight shift Hogan would have to undertake to get most of his weight [80%] on the left foot at the end-backswing. I would just be guessing! I certainly don't believe that Hogan had 80% of his weight on the left foot at the end-backswing position. I still would like to know how Trolio claims to have proven that fact.

It is difficult for me to criticise his thinking without actually reading the book. However, it sounds irrational to quote Newton's law of rotation to prove that acceleration occurs faster when the COG is near the pivot point. That may apply to physical objects rotating in space, but it cannot apply to the human body. People seem to have very little understanding of human anatomy. There is actually no "true" rotation of the pelvis. One pivots over the left femoral head in such a way that one undergoes a left hip clearing action (rotation left-backwards of the left pelvis due to the fact that the left femoral head has moved to a "new" position). Pivoting over the left femoral head is maximised if one has to slide first, because as one slides against a firming-up left thigh and "fixed" left knee, the lateral sliding force helps to push the left femoral head backwards and rightwards before weight gets on the left leg and stabilises the left thigh, and this phenomenon enables the left hip clearing pivot motion to occur efficiently. If most of the body weight is already on the left foot at the end-backswing, then two problems occur-: i) The 80% of body weight that is on the left leg, transmitted through the left thigh to the ground, impedes the ability of the left femoral head to move to a new position (back-rightwards) - because it is easier to move the left femoral head to a new position when the left thigh is unweighted, and if the left femoral head doesn't easily move to a new position, then the left hip clearing pivot action cannot properly occur. ii) Secondly, if 80% of the body weight is already on the left side, then there is less ability to use one's body weight as a"force" to move from right-to-left by pushing off the right foot. By contrast, if 80% of one's body weight is on the right foot at the end of the backswing, then it is much easier to push off the right foot. I think that pushing off the inside of the right foot is important because it shifts the pelvis left-laterally against an unweighted left thigh and that force drives the upper left thigh slightly rightwards and slightly backwards, and that re-positions the left femoral head to a "new" position before the left thigh becomes excessively weighted. If 80% of the body weight is on the left foot, thereby fixing the left femoral head in its end-backswing position, and one cannot easily push off the right foot, then how does one drive the left femoral head to a "new" position, which is necessary for the left hip clearing action to properly occur. If you think that my reasoning is faulty, try an experiment. Perform a rightwards-centered backswing (as described in my pivot paper), and start the downswing by pushing off the inside of the right foot. Note how the left-lateral pelvic slide actually pushes against an unweighted left thigh and readily moves the left thigh, and therefore the left femoral head, to a "new" position, and that the "new" position is what actually represents the left hip clearing action. I find that I can get a much faster left hip clearing action that way - compared to a situation where the left thigh is excessively weighted at the start of the downswing and no left-lateral hip slide occurs. The left-lateral hip slide against a "fixed" left knee and unweighted left thigh allows that force to deflect left-backwards and move the left femoral head to its "new" position.

Jeff.