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Changes YOU'D LIKE TO SEE to the game of golf


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#61 hollabachgt

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 09:27 AM

 crater_divots, on 29 June 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

 Kenny Lee Puckett, on 29 June 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

you could argue a move to a 15 club rule. every player has one yardage gap at either the top or bottom of the bag because we have to prioritize carrying one more wood/hybrid vs wedge or vice versa.

I kind of disagree (but not passionately, so this will be my only rebuttal)

I think that golf being a game of skill means that players should be rewarded by their ability to hit different shots in different situations. I'd be happy if the max club rule was 12. Make people learn to hit different trajectories to cover different yardage gaps.

I'd like to take it a bit further and reduce the count to 10 clubs. It would return shotmaking back to the game, force players to make hard decisions in how they construct their bags, would reduce the cost for players trying to get into the game as they don't feel compelled to buy as much equipment, and has the potential to encourage players playing from shorter tees.


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#62 hollabachgt

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 09:32 AM

 Medic, on 29 June 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I have said it before and caught a lot of flak for it, but no player should ever be penalized due to the laziness of another. I am referring to footprints in bunkers that go unraked and landing in divots in the fairway.

Just yesterday I got one of the best drives of the day on a hard par 5 drawing it around the corner and placing myself into a great position to layup. Unfortunately my ball was in a deep divot and I had to swing down a little more with a wedge just to advance it. I took a bogey on the hole because my layup distance was too far out to get it close, I pulled the shot into the sand, and didn't get it up and down. And all because another player was too lazy to fill their divot with sand that is provided on each and every cart.

Where I come from that's simple known as rub of the green and has been an integral part of playing the game for over 400 years. Why does the golfing ground need to be "pristine"?

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#63 avrag

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:04 AM

The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.
I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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#64 NJpatbee

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:13 AM

The only change I would make is the definition of a hazard, which is currently only water and sand.  In reality, areas like steep inclines, cliffs, thick dense brush or forest, and similar areas are either too dangerous to go looking for a ball or for all practical purposes the all cannot be found, especially in a few minutes.  You may as well have hit in a pond.  I would keep the OB and lost ball rule for areas not marked as hazards.  Of course, the USGA and R&A would have to come up with a reasonable and clear definition of "hazard", which I would volunteer to help define.  It's nice to comment on, but there has been too much golf played according to the current rules and it would change the "integrity"  of the game.   I just wish the original founders of our modern game would have defined a hazard differently.

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#65 Argonne69

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:23 AM

 Medic, on 30 June 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

 Argonne69, on 29 June 2015 - 09:28 PM, said:

 Medic, on 29 June 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I have said it before and caught a lot of flak for it, but no player should ever be penalized due to the laziness of another. I am referring to footprints in bunkers that go unraked and landing in divots in the fairway.

Just yesterday I got one of the best drives of the day on a hard par 5 drawing it around the corner and placing myself into a great position to layup. Unfortunately my ball was in a deep divot and I had to swing down a little more with a wedge just to advance it. I took a bogey on the hole because my layup distance was too far out to get it close, I pulled the shot into the sand, and didn't get it up and down. And all because another player was too lazy to fill their divot with sand that is provided on each and every cart.

Simple. Learn to hit from a divot, as it's part of the game. When your ball hits a tree, and bounces back into the fairway, do you want to be required to pick up the ball and throw it into the trees? Lucky and bad breaks are part of the game, and even out over time.

I do agree that lazy a-holes should fix their divots.

Not a good comparison. Divot represents something that was not a part of the course design. The tree was. And my point has always been that no one player should be penalized by another players laziness.

For hundreds of years, golf has more or less lived by one prime rule: play it as it lies (through the green). Yes, it sucks to be in a divot, or a footprint in a bunker, along the edge of the rough, on a downhill lie, on a wet patch of turf, etc. That's the rub of the green. For every bad break you have, you'll likely get an offsetting good break.

The basic problem I have with the divot or bunker issue is that it'll quickly degrade into a lift, and place on practically every shot. Not all divots are created equal. There are craters, and there are mostly healed divots. Unlike normal GUR that's marked, whether a piece of turf is worthy of relief will become a point of contention. There are already enough players rolling their ball in the fairway, so if one doesn't want to play by the rules, it's no skin off my back in a casual round. 'Doesn't mean the rules have to change.

'Same goes for OB. Dems the rules. If you don't want a stroke and distance penalty, don't sail the ball of the course property. Instead, aim at the water hazard on the other side. :taunt:


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#66 MountainKing

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:31 AM

 bazinky, on 30 June 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

I with the guys that would like to see a change to the rules regarding landing in divots in the fairway. I'm just not sure what the proper rule change should be to keep things equitable and not make it too difficult to interpret/or implement. I don't like being penalized for hitting the shot I'm trying to hit.

Other issues (such as footprints in bunkers) involve a miss, so I'm fine with getting screwed. I hate listening to people b**** about bunker conditions. In my opinion, they are supposed to be penal. I'd be all for getting rid of rakes, period.

Bunkers are suppose to be penal but there's also a bit of skill that can be used to recover from them, however a lot of the bunkers around here are almost impossible to play out of due to conditions of the bunker which include lack of sand. Luck is part of the game, but you shouldn't have to rely solely on good/bad luck to play a shot out of a bunker.  If you get rid of rakes and make their conditions poor/penal then why not just put stakes around the bunkers? Eventually they'll get to a point where people will just take unplayable lies because it's the lesser of two evils and the bunkers just become another hazard like water.  Bunkers should be penal but playable.

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#67 hollabachgt

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:46 AM

 MountainKing, on 30 June 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

Bunkers should be penal but playable.

Bunkers should also be penal enough that players avoid them, and should not expect that a ball can be extracted from them in one stroke.

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#68 crater_divots

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:47 AM

 avrag, on 30 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.

You have a valid point, but in application it's not so simple.

I'm a huge believer that the pro game and the amateur game should mirror each other as much as possible. The rules that every golfer plays by should be as uniform as possible. They might play longer, tighter holes with higher rough, but the game itself shouldn't be dramatically different.

Most PGA tour stops either eliminate OB, or have it in areas that players will never get to. We've all seen Phil or Tiger over the years bomb a drive into wastelands that are impossible to get to... but they climb in there to hit out. The whole course and area is in play.

Contrast that with a lot of the courses amateurs play. I played a 140 yard par 3 the other day with the green surrounded by woods 10 yards past the green. The entire woods were O.B. Get a bad hop off of the tee and you might have a perfect look for an up-and-down chip for par, but by the rules you're re-teeing 3.

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#69 Medic

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:53 AM

 hollabachgt, on 30 June 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

 Medic, on 29 June 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I have said it before and caught a lot of flak for it, but no player should ever be penalized due to the laziness of another. I am referring to footprints in bunkers that go unraked and landing in divots in the fairway.

Just yesterday I got one of the best drives of the day on a hard par 5 drawing it around the corner and placing myself into a great position to layup. Unfortunately my ball was in a deep divot and I had to swing down a little more with a wedge just to advance it. I took a bogey on the hole because my layup distance was too far out to get it close, I pulled the shot into the sand, and didn't get it up and down. And all because another player was too lazy to fill their divot with sand that is provided on each and every cart.

Where I come from that's simple known as rub of the green and has been an integral part of playing the game for over 400 years. Why does the golfing ground need to be "pristine"?
But it's not rub of the green. It is "hey too bad you played later than the lazy slob too good to make it better than he found it".
Land on leaves, sticks, hills, rough, bare grassless areas - that is rub of the green.
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#70 Argonne69

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:55 AM

 hollabachgt, on 30 June 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

 MountainKing, on 30 June 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

Bunkers should be penal but playable.

Bunkers should also be penal enough that players avoid them, and should not expect that a ball can be extracted from them in one stroke.

Agreed. I've never been in a bunker that was unplayable. Buried lies, fried eggs, hardpan, wet sand, footprints, leaves, etc. are all playable. The introduction of rakes is relatively new to golf. We've become spoiled.


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#71 Argonne69

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:57 AM

 crater_divots, on 30 June 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

 avrag, on 30 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.

You have a valid point, but in application it's not so simple.

I'm a huge believer that the pro game and the amateur game should mirror each other as much as possible. The rules that every golfer plays by should be as uniform as possible. They might play longer, tighter holes with higher rough, but the game itself shouldn't be dramatically different.

Most PGA tour stops either eliminate OB, or have it in areas that players will never get to. We've all seen Phil or Tiger over the years bomb a drive into wastelands that are impossible to get to... but they climb in there to hit out. The whole course and area is in play.

Contrast that with a lot of the courses amateurs play. I played a 140 yard par 3 the other day with the green surrounded by woods 10 yards past the green. The entire woods were O.B. Get a bad hop off of the tee and you might have a perfect look for an up-and-down chip for par, but by the rules you're re-teeing 3.

We've also seen OB play a significant role in the outcome of major tournaments. Steve Stricker, Dustin Johnson, and Branden Grace have all recently tossed away a major win by hitting one OB.

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#72 Pigems

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:58 AM

They should make golf harder, it's too easy now ;)
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#73 Argonne69

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:58 AM

 Medic, on 30 June 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

 hollabachgt, on 30 June 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

 Medic, on 29 June 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I have said it before and caught a lot of flak for it, but no player should ever be penalized due to the laziness of another. I am referring to footprints in bunkers that go unraked and landing in divots in the fairway.

Just yesterday I got one of the best drives of the day on a hard par 5 drawing it around the corner and placing myself into a great position to layup. Unfortunately my ball was in a deep divot and I had to swing down a little more with a wedge just to advance it. I took a bogey on the hole because my layup distance was too far out to get it close, I pulled the shot into the sand, and didn't get it up and down. And all because another player was too lazy to fill their divot with sand that is provided on each and every cart.

Where I come from that's simple known as rub of the green and has been an integral part of playing the game for over 400 years. Why does the golfing ground need to be "pristine"?
But it's not rub of the green. It is "hey too bad you played later than the lazy slob too good to make it better than he found it".
Land on leaves, sticks, hills, rough, bare grassless areas - that is rub of the green.

Lazy groundskeepers. Why are there leaves in my pristine fairway?

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#74 hogans71

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:58 AM

 Medic, on 30 June 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

 Argonne69, on 29 June 2015 - 09:28 PM, said:

 Medic, on 29 June 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I have said it before and caught a lot of flak for it, but no player should ever be penalized due to the laziness of another. I am referring to footprints in bunkers that go unraked and landing in divots in the fairway.

Just yesterday I got one of the best drives of the day on a hard par 5 drawing it around the corner and placing myself into a great position to layup. Unfortunately my ball was in a deep divot and I had to swing down a little more with a wedge just to advance it. I took a bogey on the hole because my layup distance was too far out to get it close, I pulled the shot into the sand, and didn't get it up and down. And all because another player was too lazy to fill their divot with sand that is provided on each and every cart.

Simple. Learn to hit from a divot, as it's part of the game. When your ball hits a tree, and bounces back into the fairway, do you want to be required to pick up the ball and throw it into the trees? Lucky and bad breaks are part of the game, and even out over time.

I do agree that lazy a-holes should fix their divots.

Not a good comparison. Divot represents something that was not a part of the course design. The tree was. And my point has always been that no one player should be penalized by another players laziness.

I assume that before something like this is implemented, a clear and concise definition of what constitutes a "divot" would be provided.

Can't have any grey areas with such a fundamental change in the game, correct?

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#75 Argonne69

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 11:08 AM

 hogans71, on 30 June 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

 Medic, on 30 June 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

 Argonne69, on 29 June 2015 - 09:28 PM, said:

 Medic, on 29 June 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I have said it before and caught a lot of flak for it, but no player should ever be penalized due to the laziness of another. I am referring to footprints in bunkers that go unraked and landing in divots in the fairway.

Just yesterday I got one of the best drives of the day on a hard par 5 drawing it around the corner and placing myself into a great position to layup. Unfortunately my ball was in a deep divot and I had to swing down a little more with a wedge just to advance it. I took a bogey on the hole because my layup distance was too far out to get it close, I pulled the shot into the sand, and didn't get it up and down. And all because another player was too lazy to fill their divot with sand that is provided on each and every cart.

Simple. Learn to hit from a divot, as it's part of the game. When your ball hits a tree, and bounces back into the fairway, do you want to be required to pick up the ball and throw it into the trees? Lucky and bad breaks are part of the game, and even out over time.

I do agree that lazy a-holes should fix their divots.

Not a good comparison. Divot represents something that was not a part of the course design. The tree was. And my point has always been that no one player should be penalized by another players laziness.

I assume that before something like this is implemented, a clear and concise definition of what constitutes a "divot" would be provided.

Can't have any grey areas with such a fundamental change in the game, correct?

And that's the rub. <snare. cymbal>

Do I get relieve from the following two? Both look perfectly playable to me, but since they were once divots, I guess I get to lift and drop.

Posted Image

Posted Image


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#76 hollabachgt

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 11:39 AM

 Medic, on 30 June 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

 hollabachgt, on 30 June 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

 Medic, on 29 June 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I have said it before and caught a lot of flak for it, but no player should ever be penalized due to the laziness of another. I am referring to footprints in bunkers that go unraked and landing in divots in the fairway.

Just yesterday I got one of the best drives of the day on a hard par 5 drawing it around the corner and placing myself into a great position to layup. Unfortunately my ball was in a deep divot and I had to swing down a little more with a wedge just to advance it. I took a bogey on the hole because my layup distance was too far out to get it close, I pulled the shot into the sand, and didn't get it up and down. And all because another player was too lazy to fill their divot with sand that is provided on each and every cart.

Where I come from that's simple known as rub of the green and has been an integral part of playing the game for over 400 years. Why does the golfing ground need to be "pristine"?
But it's not rub of the green. It is "hey too bad you played later than the lazy slob too good to make it better than he found it".
Land on leaves, sticks, hills, rough, bare grassless areas - that is rub of the green.

The moment the ball leaves the face of your club anything that happens to it going forward is rub of the green. A shot that ends of in a divot had a 99.99999% chance of ending up anywhere but that divot, so why should we the players or the rules get worked up over such a small possibility? If you feel that there is a lesser chance of having a struck ball end up in a divot when playing earlier in the day, why don't you? You do have the ability to control that. Would you rather play out of a divot or an overfilled divot of soft sand?

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#77 hogans71

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 11:40 AM

 Argonne69, on 30 June 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

 hogans71, on 30 June 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

 Medic, on 30 June 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

 Argonne69, on 29 June 2015 - 09:28 PM, said:

 Medic, on 29 June 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I have said it before and caught a lot of flak for it, but no player should ever be penalized due to the laziness of another. I am referring to footprints in bunkers that go unraked and landing in divots in the fairway.

Just yesterday I got one of the best drives of the day on a hard par 5 drawing it around the corner and placing myself into a great position to layup. Unfortunately my ball was in a deep divot and I had to swing down a little more with a wedge just to advance it. I took a bogey on the hole because my layup distance was too far out to get it close, I pulled the shot into the sand, and didn't get it up and down. And all because another player was too lazy to fill their divot with sand that is provided on each and every cart.

Simple. Learn to hit from a divot, as it's part of the game. When your ball hits a tree, and bounces back into the fairway, do you want to be required to pick up the ball and throw it into the trees? Lucky and bad breaks are part of the game, and even out over time.

I do agree that lazy a-holes should fix their divots.

Not a good comparison. Divot represents something that was not a part of the course design. The tree was. And my point has always been that no one player should be penalized by another players laziness.

I assume that before something like this is implemented, a clear and concise definition of what constitutes a "divot" would be provided.

Can't have any grey areas with such a fundamental change in the game, correct?

And that's the rub. <snare. cymbal>

Do I get relieve from the following two? Both look perfectly playable to me, but since they were once divots, I guess I get to lift and drop.

Posted Image

Posted Image

The potential for abuse would be epic.

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#78 MountainKing

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 11:51 AM

 avrag, on 30 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.


That's not going to happen - like other sports the rules need to evolve to keep up with how things are being built.  In a hazard you have the option to hit the ball as it lays, OB you don't have the option, that's the penalty difference.  The rules are based on the professional game and the professional game and professional courses have evolved a lot differently than the amateur game has.  I only would like to see the rules change from a selfish stand point of I get sick of sitting on the course for hours.

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#79 Argonne69

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 11:55 AM

 hogans71, on 30 June 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:


The potential for abuse would be epic.

As I've noted previously, I think it would quickly degenerate into lift, clean, and drop on practically all shots. GUR and immovable obstructions all have clear definitions. A "divot" does not, and I think it would be impossible to come up with a concise definition. There are so many types of turf irregularities. On top of that, divots heal over time, but they go through a transition. At what point in the transition do they cease to be a divot, and become an irregularity?

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#80 Argonne69

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 11:58 AM

 MountainKing, on 30 June 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

 avrag, on 30 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.


That's not going to happen - like other sports the rules need to evolve to keep up with how things are being built.  In a hazard you have the option to hit the ball as it lays, OB you don't have the option, that's the penalty difference.  The rules are based on the professional game and the professional game and professional courses have evolved a lot differently than the amateur game has.  I only would like to see the rules change from a selfish stand point of I get sick of sitting on the course for hours.

I don't understand why you believe OB slows down play. If anything, the act of determining where a ball crossed the course boundary, and executing the drop, would take more time than hitting a provisional. Heck, I see guys pull a 2nd ball out of their pocket and tee it up before the original ball has even hit the ground.

One hits a ball that looks like it might be OB, declares a provisional, tees it up, and fires away. If you then walk to the first ball and see that it's OB, you play your second. No delay.


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#81 MountainKing

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 11:58 AM

 hollabachgt, on 30 June 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

 MountainKing, on 30 June 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

Bunkers should be penal but playable.

Bunkers should also be penal enough that players avoid them, and should not expect that a ball can be extracted from them in one stroke.


I don't know a single golfer that would be considered an average golfer that has ever yelled "get in the bunker" or intentionally hit toward a bunker.....I'm a decent bunker player myself and even I cringe a bit when I end up in one.  A tough bunker is one thing but with the way you're looking to take it they will just become unplayable lies for most golfers which will result in the opposite. Heck in some tournaments there's bunkers I've seen that have not been taken care of and I've thought about taking an unplayable, if you take raking away they'll just become wastelands. You don't want them to become just another hazard on the course.  I dunno, maybe I'm totally off base with my thinking?

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#82 Golf Monkey

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 12:02 PM

 MountainKing, on 30 June 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

 avrag, on 30 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.


That's not going to happen - like other sports the rules need to evolve to keep up with how things are being built.  In a hazard you have the option to hit the ball as it lays, OB you don't have the option, that's the penalty difference.  The rules are based on the professional game and the professional game and professional courses have evolved a lot differently than the amateur game has.  I only would like to see the rules change from a selfish stand point of I get sick of sitting on the course for hours.

Every course has Out of Bounds, it's where the course stops and the rest of the world begins!

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#83 MountainKing

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 12:04 PM

 Argonne69, on 30 June 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

 MountainKing, on 30 June 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

 avrag, on 30 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.


That's not going to happen - like other sports the rules need to evolve to keep up with how things are being built.  In a hazard you have the option to hit the ball as it lays, OB you don't have the option, that's the penalty difference.  The rules are based on the professional game and the professional game and professional courses have evolved a lot differently than the amateur game has.  I only would like to see the rules change from a selfish stand point of I get sick of sitting on the course for hours.

I don't understand why you believe OB slows down play. If anything, the act of determining where a ball crossed the course boundary, and executing the drop, would take more time than hitting a provisional. Heck, I see guys pull a 2nd ball out of their pocket and tee it up before the original ball has even hit the ground.

One hits a ball that looks like it might be OB, declares a provisional, tees it up, and fires away. If you then walk to the first ball and see that it's OB, you play your second. No delay.

It's not the act that you're describing, it's the weekend warrior who insists on playing everything by the rules who gets out there, determines it's OB by a foot then decides to trek back to the tee and start over, or the guy who decides he wants to tin cup it and hit 10 tee shots because they all keep slicing OB.   I must be the only person who ends up behind these guys because I get funny looks when I tell them stories of this stuff.  

Since you're local to me you'll get this one, Tanna Farms last year on hole 2 we're waiting and waiting for this group in front of us only to see the cart head back our way, guy says he finally found it OB and had to re-tee, so he does and it heads straight right again to the road, few minutes later he's back again...we ask to play through and he said the group in front of them was slow so there's no point, so he tees back up and finally gets one in play.  A few holes later here he comes again....if the rules let him drop he would have dropped and hit and at least if that one went out he'd be making forward progress.  I'm not saying we're turning a 5 hour round into a 3 hour round but at least this could keep things progressing in the right direction.

BTW - most people here aren't good judges of the average golfer, you and I both get the process and can play it accordingly and within a timely manner, the rest of the world tends to struggle with basic concepts like provisional balls and moving along....and it's for that group alone I'd like a few things changed to save my sanity!

Edited by MountainKing, 30 June 2015 - 12:06 PM.


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#84 MountainKing

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 12:07 PM

 Golf Monkey, on 30 June 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

 MountainKing, on 30 June 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

 avrag, on 30 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.


That's not going to happen - like other sports the rules need to evolve to keep up with how things are being built.  In a hazard you have the option to hit the ball as it lays, OB you don't have the option, that's the penalty difference.  The rules are based on the professional game and the professional game and professional courses have evolved a lot differently than the amateur game has.  I only would like to see the rules change from a selfish stand point of I get sick of sitting on the course for hours.

Every course has Out of Bounds, it's where the course stops and the rest of the world begins!

Personally I think we should just do away with out of bounds, you find it you play it even if it's in the middle of the subdivision, the world should be our golf course!

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#85 Kingkat54

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 12:19 PM

I would have the USGA throw away the current Rules book.

Start over and simplify  it. ALL PENALTIES should be ONE STROKE! Period! No more OB tees, re tee stuff. Good to nearest entry and drop, add a stroke and play!!!!!!!
Too many to mention, but simple would be best!

Golf Magazine had about 10 simple Rules of Golf a few years ago. THAT would be a good start.


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#86 LouieLouie

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 01:05 PM

Ok, so I'm a completely average golfer to the point that I don't maintain a handicap (except on this website i'm a +4, I think my real handicap is in the 25+ range). Can someone please explain to me, (genuinely asking not trying to pick a fight) how could someone abuse the rule of taking a ball out of a divot if it is in the fairway? Wouldn't you just be dropping your ball in the fairway? Also, for those groundskeepers that might be on here, would it be better to have 1 very large divot in the fairway or 2 small to medium sized divots? Again not trying to pick a fight. I guess my point is, how much are you really improving your lie, if your ball is in the fairway to begin with, and what is best for the playing surface?

On a different topic, I would like to see the cup size increase to about 7 or 8 inches. I don't like the fact that the ball can barely fit between the flag pole and the edge of the cup. If it is a windy day then the flag can literally make it impossible for the ball to fit into the cup on one side of the hole. In addition to this, it might improve the speed of the game if the flag is to no longer be removed even while putting. All this being said, I don't like the 12"-15" holes that are out there, that is way too large! (Insert, "that's what she said joke!")

Edited by LouieLouie, 30 June 2015 - 01:06 PM.

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#87 Wardell Stone

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 01:09 PM

 avrag, on 30 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.

Point taken but all the old school people who want to never touch the ball, rub of the land, those are the breaks etc are also often times the guys who sit around bitching about 5 hour rounds. The game needs to be played at a quicker pace for everyone involved, anything that can reasonably be done to do that in a non tournament setting should be applauded and encouraged. There is a big difference between tournament golf and recreational golf.
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#88 Argonne69

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 01:10 PM

 MountainKing, on 30 June 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

 Argonne69, on 30 June 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

 MountainKing, on 30 June 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

 avrag, on 30 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.


That's not going to happen - like other sports the rules need to evolve to keep up with how things are being built.  In a hazard you have the option to hit the ball as it lays, OB you don't have the option, that's the penalty difference.  The rules are based on the professional game and the professional game and professional courses have evolved a lot differently than the amateur game has.  I only would like to see the rules change from a selfish stand point of I get sick of sitting on the course for hours.

I don't understand why you believe OB slows down play. If anything, the act of determining where a ball crossed the course boundary, and executing the drop, would take more time than hitting a provisional. Heck, I see guys pull a 2nd ball out of their pocket and tee it up before the original ball has even hit the ground.

One hits a ball that looks like it might be OB, declares a provisional, tees it up, and fires away. If you then walk to the first ball and see that it's OB, you play your second. No delay.

It's not the act that you're describing, it's the weekend warrior who insists on playing everything by the rules who gets out there, determines it's OB by a foot then decides to trek back to the tee and start over, or the guy who decides he wants to tin cup it and hit 10 tee shots because they all keep slicing OB.   I must be the only person who ends up behind these guys because I get funny looks when I tell them stories of this stuff.  

Since you're local to me you'll get this one, Tanna Farms last year on hole 2 we're waiting and waiting for this group in front of us only to see the cart head back our way, guy says he finally found it OB and had to re-tee, so he does and it heads straight right again to the road, few minutes later he's back again...we ask to play through and he said the group in front of them was slow so there's no point, so he tees back up and finally gets one in play.  A few holes later here he comes again....if the rules let him drop he would have dropped and hit and at least if that one went out he'd be making forward progress.  I'm not saying we're turning a 5 hour round into a 3 hour round but at least this could keep things progressing in the right direction.

BTW - most people here aren't good judges of the average golfer, you and I both get the process and can play it accordingly and within a timely manner, the rest of the world tends to struggle with basic concepts like provisional balls and moving along....and it's for that group alone I'd like a few things changed to save my sanity!

So why didn't his playing partners, who are probably as aggravated as you, tell him to hit a provisional?

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#89 Argonne69

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 01:13 PM

 LouieLouie, on 30 June 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Ok, so I'm a completely average golfer to the point that I don't maintain a handicap (except on this website i'm a +4, I think my real handicap is in the 25+ range). Can someone please explain to me, (genuinely asking not trying to pick a fight) how could someone abuse the rule of taking a ball out of a divot if it is in the fairway? Wouldn't you just be dropping your ball in the fairway? Also, for those groundskeepers that might be on here, would it be better to have 1 very large divot in the fairway or 2 small to medium sized divots? Again not trying to pick a fight. I guess my point is, how much are you really improving your lie, if your ball is in the fairway to begin with, and what is best for the playing surface?

What's a divot? Can you define one, and more importantly, when an "irregular" turf condition is not a divot? At what point in the regrowth of a divot does it cease to be a divot? Did you see the photos I posted above? Are each of them divots?

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#90 Argonne69

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 01:16 PM

 Wardell Stone, on 30 June 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

 avrag, on 30 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.

Point taken but all the old school people who want to never touch the ball, rub of the land, those are the breaks etc are also often times the guys who sit around bitching about 5 hour rounds. The game needs to be played at a quicker pace for everyone involved, anything that can reasonably be done to do that in a non tournament setting should be applauded and encouraged. There is a big difference between tournament golf and recreational golf.

I don't understand how playing it as it lies increases the length of the round. All the suggestions posted so far will increase the length of the round. In a divot? First, decide if it is in fact a divot. Not sure? Call over your playing partners to make a ruling. Lift and clean the ball. Drop. Oh shoot, it landed back in the divot. Redrop.

Playing a provisional does not really add any time to the round, or a miniscule amount. I would argue that it would take more time trying to figure out where the ball crossed the OB margin, then measuring 2 club length, and dropping would take longer.

If you're playing recreational golf, then feel free to play by any rules you'd like. Nobody is stopping you. We don't need to change the rules of the game because a few folks don't want to add another stroke to their score.

When my family plays Monopoly, we like to put all fines in the center, and collect the pool when you land on Free Parking. It's not in the official rules, but who cares?

Edited by Argonne69, 30 June 2015 - 01:19 PM.


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