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Changes YOU'D LIKE TO SEE to the game of golf


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#271 SeaOfGreen10

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 09:58 PM

View Posthollabachgt, on 14 July 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:


The divot analogy was used to describe a scenario where the rules are written in such a way to prevent possible "grey" situations in which a player may take improper advantage of the rule or players may argue over the intent of the rule, In order to curb this behavior the rules don't permit relief.  When it comes to OB, the rules is doing the same thing. Anything less than stroke and distance leaves open the "grey" in the rules where intent comes into play

How could the intent of the rule come into play at all? The only "grey" area is determining where the ball crossed OB, which is similar to what is done for hazards. If leaves too much room for interpretation, then why do this for a hazard? If you truly believe that drop would be too much grey area, do you also believe a hazard or unplayable should be stroke and distance?

View Posthollabachgt, on 14 July 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:


When the USGA explored this possibile penalty in the early 60's the rule described a situation where the player could drop a ball within two club-lengths of where the original ball crossed the out of bounds line. Reasonable evidence was required both that the ball had gone out of bounds and as to the point of crossing. In the absence of either, stroke and distance was the only option. While it seems rather straightforward, the USGA deemed it anything but and restored the rule back to stroke and distance.

Any idea what wasn't straightforward about "drop where the ball crossed into OB"? It is done all the time for balls hit into a hazard, so I am not sure why it would suddenly become so complex when dealing with OB. Not saying the USGA didn't have a good reason, but short of hearing that reason, I'm not really willing to blindly take their word for it.

View Posthollabachgt, on 14 July 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:


Why is it more accurate. In the scenario where out of bounds is dangerously close to the line of the play, isn't in the skill of the player to properly avoid the out of bounds, as it is on both the tee shot and approach into the 17th at St. Andrews?

I ask again: If a fair punishment for hitting it into a bad spot is stroke and distance, why not make that the penalty for a hazard as well? If I hit it into an "unplayable" spot, why should I be rewarded with distance? Could it be because OB is supposed to be far from the normal field of play, but that simply isn't the case anymore?

View Posthollabachgt, on 14 July 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:


I'd argue that the developer/architect is placing the green among condos to sell condos, not as a hazard.

The most likely scenario is that the developers realized that if they used the land near the green for condos instead of a sand trap/pond/etc, they could make money off the condos while simultaneously making the hole more difficult. Win/win for them. And honestly, when the only trouble around a green is OB....they knew what they were doing.

View Posthollabachgt, on 14 July 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:


An additional tee shot among a group of 4 will take less than a minute to hit. If the player in question is unable to keep their golf ball on the course with the driver then it would be in their best interest to hit a club off of the tee that will put them in play. At the same time, since the handicap system included per hole maximums if a player hits multiple shots out of play they would be better off picking up with their maximum. Pace of play in this situation has nothing to do with how the rules are written but rather the individual.

You are telling me that you honestly believe that anywhere near the majority of golfers will be able to 1.) have a second ball ready, tee it up, get set and hit in less than a minute, 2.) make the smart but conservative decision to stop hitting their driver, and 3.) stop playing a hole and take a max score per handicap rules?

I would love if the USGA would start bringing pace of play concerns into rules decision, at least at the amateur level. Seems fairly important in growing the game. I know it won't happen, but I can dream.


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#272 metrohs

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 01:47 AM

1. No more flat-brim puma hats, or cargo shorts, for that matter. This is not a ribs cookout, this is not a skatepark. It's a golf course, dress like it. (Yes, even you, Obama).

2. Others said the same thing, but some kind of etiquette test in order to play USGA governed courses.
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#273 avrag

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:08 AM

View PostSeaOfGreen10, on 14 July 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

I ask again: If a fair punishment for hitting it into a bad spot is stroke and distance, why not make that the penalty for a hazard as well? If I hit it into an "unplayable" spot, why should I be rewarded with distance? Could it be because OB is supposed to be far from the normal field of play, but that simply isn't the case anymore?


OB is NOT ON THE COURSE.
Players should do their best to play golf on the golf course, not anywhere else. Golf balls are dangerous missiles. It makes sense that hitting it off the course, to places where people who do not play golf might be in danger, is punished more severely than anything else. And that is even (and especially) true for the stupid new golf courses with too much OB, where any OB shot could end up hitting a kid in the head, when the kid is simply playing in the garden.
You are supposed to keep your ball on the course for a reason. If that means hitting a tee shot with a 7-iron, so be it. If a golf course forces you to do that all the time and you don't like it, avoid playing that course. It might be the only way to stop the construction of courses like that.

Edited by avrag, 15 July 2015 - 03:09 AM.

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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#274 rsj1360

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 05:07 AM

View Postmetrohs, on 15 July 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

1. No more flat-brim puma hats, or cargo shorts, for that matter. This is not a ribs cookout, this is not a skatepark. It's a golf course, dress like it. (Yes, even you, Obama).

2. Others said the same thing, but some kind of etiquette test in order to play USGA governed courses.
One change I'd like to see is golfers stop worrying about what other golfers wear and learn to mind their own business.

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#275 BillyZ2

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 06:57 AM

View Postavrag, on 15 July 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

View PostSeaOfGreen10, on 14 July 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

I ask again: If a fair punishment for hitting it into a bad spot is stroke and distance, why not make that the penalty for a hazard as well? If I hit it into an "unplayable" spot, why should I be rewarded with distance? Could it be because OB is supposed to be far from the normal field of play, but that simply isn't the case anymore?


OB is NOT ON THE COURSE.
Players should do their best to play golf on the golf course, not anywhere else. Golf balls are dangerous missiles. It makes sense that hitting it off the course, to places where people who do not play golf might be in danger, is punished more severely than anything else. And that is even (and especially) true for the stupid new golf courses with too much OB, where any OB shot could end up hitting a kid in the head, when the kid is simply playing in the garden.
You are supposed to keep your ball on the course for a reason. If that means hitting a tee shot with a 7-iron, so be it. If a golf course forces you to do that all the time and you don't like it, avoid playing that course. It might be the only way to stop the construction of courses like that.
You're supposed to keep your ball out of hazards as well, so why not take a stroke AND distance for being errant enough to hit it into the lake? Face it, hitting it OB or into a lake are equally bad, and should be treated the same: Penalty stroke and drop where it went out. Provisionals make golf a pita to play, get rid of them!


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#276 hollabachgt

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 08:41 AM

View PostSeaOfGreen10, on 14 July 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

How could the intent of the rule come into play at all? The only "grey" area is determining where the ball crossed OB, which is similar to what is done for hazards. If leaves too much room for interpretation, then why do this for a hazard? If you truly believe that drop would be too much grey area, do you also believe a hazard or unplayable should be stroke and distance?

Any idea what wasn't straightforward about "drop where the ball crossed into OB"? It is done all the time for balls hit into a hazard, so I am not sure why it would suddenly become so complex when dealing with OB. Not saying the USGA didn't have a good reason, but short of hearing that reason, I'm not really willing to blindly take their word for it.

I ask again: If a fair punishment for hitting it into a bad spot is stroke and distance, why not make that the penalty for a hazard as well? If I hit it into an "unplayable" spot, why should I be rewarded with distance? Could it be because OB is supposed to be far from the normal field of play, but that simply isn't the case anymore?

I'll try to do some more research on the USGA's experiment with the OB rule in the early 60's, but I don't expect to turn up much. Unlike water hazards, out of bounds lines are frequently not directly in the sight line of a player and can commonly be found obstructed by woods, bushes, high grass, etc. This would make pin pointing the exact place the ball crossed the line very challenging. Being that the rule required the player to precisely identify this location in order to take a drop there, it was probably determined to be exceedingly difficult and inaccurate. Which would have lead to the return of a stroke and distance penalty only. The penalty for a ball entering a water hazard and a ball crossing an out of bounds line are often compared, they should not be. Water hazards are integral elements within the design of the golfing ground, out of bounds defines where the golfing ground ends. While the impact on the play in certain situations may be similar, that does not mean the rule governing them should be. Viewing them as such is short sided as to the intent of their place.  Like the end zone pylons in football or the foul pole in baseball, the proximity of the ball to these markers determines if the ball is in play or not. If a ball flies inside the foul pole its a home run, if the ball flies outside the pole its a strike, is this a fair punishment?  The out of bounds line in golf is our foul pole and for the ball to be in play it must be played inside the boundaries of the field.

View PostSeaOfGreen10, on 14 July 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

You are telling me that you honestly believe that anywhere near the majority of golfers will be able to 1.) have a second ball ready, tee it up, get set and hit in less than a minute, 2.) make the smart but conservative decision to stop hitting their driver, and 3.) stop playing a hole and take a max score per handicap rules?

I believe that all players are capable of coming to that conclusion and should show this ability prior to playing the game.

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#277 SeaOfGreen10

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 08:43 AM

View Postavrag, on 15 July 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

View PostSeaOfGreen10, on 14 July 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

I ask again: If a fair punishment for hitting it into a bad spot is stroke and distance, why not make that the penalty for a hazard as well? If I hit it into an "unplayable" spot, why should I be rewarded with distance? Could it be because OB is supposed to be far from the normal field of play, but that simply isn't the case anymore?


OB is NOT ON THE COURSE.
Players should do their best to play golf on the golf course, not anywhere else. Golf balls are dangerous missiles. It makes sense that hitting it off the course, to places where people who do not play golf might be in danger, is punished more severely than anything else. And that is even (and especially) true for the stupid new golf courses with too much OB, where any OB shot could end up hitting a kid in the head, when the kid is simply playing in the garden.
You are supposed to keep your ball on the course for a reason. If that means hitting a tee shot with a 7-iron, so be it. If a golf course forces you to do that all the time and you don't like it, avoid playing that course. It might be the only way to stop the construction of courses like that.

Actually, if you've been following this thread, there are courses where OB is in the middle of it, so your first sentence isn't true, caps lock or not.

Your last sentence would rapidly decline golf participation. I honestly can't think of a reasonably priced course in the urban/suburban area where I live that DOESN'T have a fairly significant number of houses/public spaces near multiple fariways/greens. Just completely unrealistic to think that golf courses will ever turn down profit in any significant numbers.

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#278 SeaOfGreen10

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 08:59 AM

View Posthollabachgt, on 15 July 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

View PostSeaOfGreen10, on 14 July 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

How could the intent of the rule come into play at all? The only "grey" area is determining where the ball crossed OB, which is similar to what is done for hazards. If leaves too much room for interpretation, then why do this for a hazard? If you truly believe that drop would be too much grey area, do you also believe a hazard or unplayable should be stroke and distance?

Any idea what wasn't straightforward about "drop where the ball crossed into OB"? It is done all the time for balls hit into a hazard, so I am not sure why it would suddenly become so complex when dealing with OB. Not saying the USGA didn't have a good reason, but short of hearing that reason, I'm not really willing to blindly take their word for it.

I ask again: If a fair punishment for hitting it into a bad spot is stroke and distance, why not make that the penalty for a hazard as well? If I hit it into an "unplayable" spot, why should I be rewarded with distance? Could it be because OB is supposed to be far from the normal field of play, but that simply isn't the case anymore?

I'll try to do some more research on the USGA's experiment with the OB rule in the early 60's, but I don't expect to turn up much. Unlike water hazards, out of bounds lines are frequently not directly in the sight line of a player and can commonly be found obstructed by woods, bushes, high grass, etc. This would make pin pointing the exact place the ball crossed the line very challenging. Being that the rule required the player to precisely identify this location in order to take a drop there, it was probably determined to be exceedingly difficult and inaccurate. Which would have lead to the return of a stroke and distance penalty only. The penalty for a ball entering a water hazard and a ball crossing an out of bounds line are often compared, they should not be. Water hazards are integral elements within the design of the golfing ground, out of bounds defines where the golfing ground ends. While the impact on the play in certain situations may be similar, that does not mean the rule governing them should be. Viewing them as such is short sided as to the intent of their place.  Like the end zone pylons in football or the foul pole in baseball, the proximity of the ball to these markers determines if the ball is in play or not. If a ball flies inside the foul pole its a home run, if the ball flies outside the pole its a strike, is this a fair punishment?  The out of bounds line in golf is our foul pole and for the ball to be in play it must be played inside the boundaries of the field.

I can concede that it could be difficult to precisely determine where a ball crossed OB when OB is far from the field of play. However, I still believe that is outdated, as OB often is right in play.

And I don't buy the idea that that explanation means you HAVE to use stroke and distance. If I hit a massive hook into a water hazard on a different hole, guess what, it is going to be just as hard to figure out a precise drop spot. So again, I say if you want to eliminate any grey area or approximation, hazards need to be stroke and distance too. It is hypocritical to say you don't want grey areas in drops, then turn around and say hazards are fine because they are USUALLY easy to determine, being close to play.

And I think the baseball analogy fits for when the rule was made. But among today's courses, it would be like if minor league ball parks put their foul poles in left and right center, instead of down the line, to cut down on space needed for the stadium.


View Posthollabachgt, on 15 July 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

I believe that all players are capable of coming to that conclusion and should show this ability prior to playing the game.

But that isn't reality, as much as I wish it were.

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#279 rsj1360

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 09:02 AM

View PostSeaOfGreen10, on 15 July 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

View Postavrag, on 15 July 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

View PostSeaOfGreen10, on 14 July 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

I ask again: If a fair punishment for hitting it into a bad spot is stroke and distance, why not make that the penalty for a hazard as well? If I hit it into an "unplayable" spot, why should I be rewarded with distance? Could it be because OB is supposed to be far from the normal field of play, but that simply isn't the case anymore?


OB is NOT ON THE COURSE.
Players should do their best to play golf on the golf course, not anywhere else. Golf balls are dangerous missiles. It makes sense that hitting it off the course, to places where people who do not play golf might be in danger, is punished more severely than anything else. And that is even (and especially) true for the stupid new golf courses with too much OB, where any OB shot could end up hitting a kid in the head, when the kid is simply playing in the garden.
You are supposed to keep your ball on the course for a reason. If that means hitting a tee shot with a 7-iron, so be it. If a golf course forces you to do that all the time and you don't like it, avoid playing that course. It might be the only way to stop the construction of courses like that.

Actually, if you've been following this thread, there are courses where OB is in the middle of it, so your first sentence isn't true, caps lock or not.

Your last sentence would rapidly decline golf participation. I honestly can't think of a reasonably priced course in the urban/suburban area where I live that DOESN'T have a fairly significant number of houses/public spaces near multiple fariways/greens. Just completely unrealistic to think that golf courses will ever turn down profit in any significant numbers.
My take on this thread is "changes you'd LIKE to see". No one said the changes had to be realistic or ever going to happen. As I said before if I was king of golf there would be no houses/yards within 100 yards (or maybe more?) of the playing area of the course.

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#280 BillyZ2

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:49 PM

Judging where a ball enters a hazard, and a ball entering an out of bounds line seem "equally" as easy and equally as hard. If you can determine where a ball enters a hazard then you are intelligent enough to know the location out of bounds. The key ingredient: Honesty!


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#281 5UnderPar18

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 08:25 PM

Red stakes only. There is no reason for yellow stakes and 2 different colors with different rules confuses a lot of people. Also a ball crosses the margin of the hazard on the opposite side and bounces back in to the hazard when it is marked yellow they have to come back the the original side is too severe. 2 clubs no nearer on the side it last entered or back as far as you want keeping point of entry between you and hole. Done. IF THAT’S NOT POSSIBLE, obviously they have to drop on their original side.

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#282 FourTops

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 09:58 PM

Barring anyone who believes the rules should be tailored to their bad golf.  I apologize in advance. Happy Thanksgiving!

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#283 Golfer4Life

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:02 PM

Get 2 club length relief using the club the player intends to use for the shot.

Edited by Golfer4Life, 21 November 2018 - 10:02 PM.

PXG Derangement Syndrome, it is real.......

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#284 FourTops

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:05 PM

View PostGolfer4Life, on 21 November 2018 - 10:02 PM, said:

Get 2 club length relief using the club the player intends to use for the shot.

Like that's gonna be a popular response when they want you to say "two football fields nearer the hole".  LOL.

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#285 Golfer4Life

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:07 PM

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:05 PM, said:

View PostGolfer4Life, on 21 November 2018 - 10:02 PM, said:

Get 2 club length relief using the club the player intends to use for the shot.

Like that's gonna be a popular response when they want you to say "two football fields nearer the hole".  LOL.

Oh well, lol....

Right now a player gets about 92 inches of relief when using the driver.  It's a freaking hazard, stay out, lol.....

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#286 FourTops

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:07 PM

I think if you top your drive....you should be able to place your ball where you intended to hit your drive...389 yards...dead center.  And if you still miss the green it's not your fault....it's the club's....so place your ball 1 inch from the pin.

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#287 Golfer4Life

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:09 PM

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

I think if you top your drive....you should be able to place your ball where you intended to hit your drive...389 yards...dead center.  And if you still miss the green it's not your fault....it's the club's....so place your ball 1 inch from the pin.

Lol.....

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

I think if you top your drive....you should be able to place your ball where you intended to hit your drive...389 yards...dead center.  And if you still miss the green it's not your fault....it's the club's....so place your ball 1 inch from the pin.

That's called Millenials Golf, lol...
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#288 FourTops

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:12 PM

View PostGolfer4Life, on 21 November 2018 - 10:09 PM, said:

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

I think if you top your drive....you should be able to place your ball where you intended to hit your drive...389 yards...dead center.  And if you still miss the green it's not your fault....it's the club's....so place your ball 1 inch from the pin.

Lol.....

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

I think if you top your drive....you should be able to place your ball where you intended to hit your drive...389 yards...dead center.  And if you still miss the green it's not your fault....it's the club's....so place your ball 1 inch from the pin.

That's called Millenials Golf, lol...

"Millennial's Golf".....BWWHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

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#289 Golfer4Life

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:13 PM

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:12 PM, said:

View PostGolfer4Life, on 21 November 2018 - 10:09 PM, said:

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

I think if you top your drive....you should be able to place your ball where you intended to hit your drive...389 yards...dead center.  And if you still miss the green it's not your fault....it's the club's....so place your ball 1 inch from the pin.

Lol.....

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

I think if you top your drive....you should be able to place your ball where you intended to hit your drive...389 yards...dead center.  And if you still miss the green it's not your fault....it's the club's....so place your ball 1 inch from the pin.

That's called Millenials Golf, lol...

"Millennial's Golf".....BWWHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

No, no, no, Millenials, lol....
PXG Derangement Syndrome, it is real.......

Equipment:

A bag full of PXG’s
Non Titleist Welded Neck 35/330g SC 009

“Check your Ego at the Club House and Play the Correct Tees”

19

#290 FourTops

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:18 PM

View PostGolfer4Life, on 21 November 2018 - 10:13 PM, said:

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:12 PM, said:

View PostGolfer4Life, on 21 November 2018 - 10:09 PM, said:

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

I think if you top your drive....you should be able to place your ball where you intended to hit your drive...389 yards...dead center.  And if you still miss the green it's not your fault....it's the club's....so place your ball 1 inch from the pin.

Lol.....

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

I think if you top your drive....you should be able to place your ball where you intended to hit your drive...389 yards...dead center.  And if you still miss the green it's not your fault....it's the club's....so place your ball 1 inch from the pin.

That's called Millenials Golf, lol...

"Millennial's Golf".....BWWHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

No, no, no, Millenials, lol....

So now teachers are not allowed to text them in ALL CAPS because that triggers fear.  LOL....LMAO!


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#291 FourTops

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:22 PM

My biggest gripe is this:  if you are constantly driving your ball into trees....and then trying to hit hero shots out of trees into more trees....you should be immediately escorted off the course and directly to a golf instructor.

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#292 Golfer4Life

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:27 PM

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:22 PM, said:

My biggest gripe is this:  if you are constantly driving your ball into trees....and then trying to hit hero shots out of trees into more trees....you should be immediately escorted off the course and directly to a golf instructor.

You are absolutely right.  I learned that, I don't hit hero shots.  If I'm in the woods, I'm thinking about my next clean shot, so if I can punch out 50 yards in the fairway, great!

Edited by Golfer4Life, 21 November 2018 - 10:27 PM.

PXG Derangement Syndrome, it is real.......

Equipment:

A bag full of PXG’s
Non Titleist Welded Neck 35/330g SC 009

“Check your Ego at the Club House and Play the Correct Tees”

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#293 FourTops

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:29 PM

You know...there's the "tinkerer's" who are all show and zero go.  They want to talk about that "one shot" for the next 5 years....like winning the lotto.

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#294 Golfer4Life

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:30 PM

View PostFourTops, on 21 November 2018 - 10:29 PM, said:

You know...there's the "tinkerer's" who are all show and zero go.  They want to talk about that "one shot" for the next 5 years....like winning the lotto.

Kind of like Al Bundy and his four touchdowns at Polk High, lol....

Yes, I know the type, lol...

Edited by Golfer4Life, 21 November 2018 - 10:31 PM.

PXG Derangement Syndrome, it is real.......

Equipment:

A bag full of PXG’s
Non Titleist Welded Neck 35/330g SC 009

“Check your Ego at the Club House and Play the Correct Tees”

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#295 dropkicked

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 07:07 AM

New golfers have mandatory sessions/lessons on the rules and etiquette of golf, before they are allowed onto a course for the first time.
Or
That instructors emphasize learning the rules and etiquette associated with Golf, before or while, letting them swing a club.


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#296 FourTops

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 02:39 PM

Mandatory instructional caddies for anyone over 20 cap.  That'll clear out courses PDQ for some 4 hour rounds.

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#297 Swisstrader98

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 02:57 PM

I like how your first rule is get rid of lost ball and OB penalty. Next rule is educate ppl about the game.

Dude: saying you want to get rid of certain cornerstones on the game of golf infers a certain lack of knowledge or being “educated” about why the game exists in the first place.

#geteducated

Edited by Swisstrader98, 22 November 2018 - 02:58 PM.


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#298 Golfer4Life

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 03:27 PM

View PostSwisstrader98, on 22 November 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

I like how your first rule is get rid of lost ball and OB penalty. Next rule is educate ppl about the game.

Dude: saying you want to get rid of certain cornerstones on the game of golf infers a certain lack of knowledge or being “educated” about why the game exists in the first place.

#geteducated

Whoa!  Have a drink pal!
PXG Derangement Syndrome, it is real.......

Equipment:

A bag full of PXG’s
Non Titleist Welded Neck 35/330g SC 009

“Check your Ego at the Club House and Play the Correct Tees”

28

#299 mikpga

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 03:59 PM

Less whining & moaning...

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#300 FourTops

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 04:04 PM

I think the two football field drop towards the hole from a hazard makes sense.

Hey folks....we all disagree and chew on each other at times....but HAPPY THANKSGIVING to ALL!


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