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Blade users thread (no debating clubheads!)


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#13681 jwasacz

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 07:43 AM

View PostNo Catchy Nickname, on 19 June 2017 - 04:03 AM, said:

View Post3riC, on 19 June 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

guys i'm looking to add a new driving iron to my bag, what do you guys recommend or have in your bag?

I saw on Instagram that Miura Giken ICL 601 is being released in September, but assuming i can't wait that long, any ideas?

I'm very happy with my Honma TW-U #3i. I got the #4 first, and was impressed with it. It's a hollow design, but feels decent compared to some other hollow driving irons I've hit (felt better than the Srixon u45 even, and I liked that). The #4 I use when I'm not confident in my swing; the 3i is going to have a regular spot in the bag because it fills a big gap between 7w and 4i.
Incidentally, I just saw the new Honma utility iron in the shop today (the demo model just arrived). From the back, it looks VERY nice, much more like a normal iron :yes: . Hollow construction, but forged face. Expensive, though. Can't wait to look at it from address and give it a go. At around 30,000 yen (300USD?), there's no way I'm buying one though.

Agree on Honma TW-U #3. Like it more than the Srixon u65 #3, feel is better and shape is a little smaller.


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#13682 Nard_S

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 07:54 AM

View PostFellaheen51, on 19 June 2017 - 02:46 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 18 June 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

View PostKingcat990, on 18 June 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

I felt like the E-Personal was played out. Yeah it's Epon, but that muscle design came from another golf company, and since then has been remanufactured as something new. Although they're not identical, but the evidence is staggering. Because it's successful? Perhaps. I don't know.

I believe this is the 2008 Hogan Apex:
Attachment apex.jpg

The Epon P:
Attachment gallery_18_4_121668.jpg

And another Japanese company called AFD (always find distance) pawning it off as something new:
Attachment 01.jpg

As you can see...it's nothing new. Hogan did it first. I'd rather own the Hogans 1025 than the Epon's personally (insert pun)

The blade on blade look can be found in Hogan PC's from the early 80's. It was replicated in the 99 Apex. It is an effective way to thin the top line and sole and hide muscle.

The blade on blade design of Hogans goes back further than that.  First beginning to appear with the '63 IPT (Improved Power Thrust) and then prominently with the '64 IPT III.  Remained a design feature of Hogan Apex's for the next 25+ years.  The logic of the blade on blade geometry by the designer of the '99 Apex, Jeff Sheets.  



Presented as a historical reference, not as a point of debate as to its merits.  As I interrupt, a means of centering the mass while allowing a slightly larger overall (forgiving?) club head.  Utilizing the '88 Apex "Redlines" basic design and adding a more pronounced muscle pad, which culminating in the '99's.  

Don't know about all things blades.  Highly unlikely to ever take afield many that are discussed ITT.  But I remain entirely satisfied with the '99 Apex's being my one and only primary set of players.  (Edit add: have others in inventory that do not get utilized very often.) To the point of having a backup set of heads in case I ever wear out the primary.  Should last me for the remainder of my golfing life.  

FWIW.  The Epon P's?  No thank you.  Entirely to much over design on the back side for my tastes.

Well said...........I have a backup set also and my "beaters" continue to dominate bag presence. Currently shafts are what are driving any waffling there and several alternatives I have are so clean, I do not desire to defile them with crappy play and bag chatter. :).

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#13683 Fellaheen51

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:21 AM

Ha Ha Nard.  Precisely.  The "beaters" (aka players) are the WITB set.  Thereby, not concerned with damages inflicted by actually playing said irons.  They can rattle away in the bag (sans covers of course, how else to display the wares) and I have no fear.  The backup heads are more pristine.  Have them safely stored away.  Pull them out every now and again to make sure they're OK and to fondle.  

What made these first class irons was finally getting the right shafts into them.  Find the Nippon 950's to be entirely suitable to my capabilities.  Properly adjusted, extended and gripped, made be a believer in the possibilities.  Through some degree of experimentation and trial and error.  Driven by observation and feel, not by data.  A noble pursuit for a worthy goal.
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#13684 Papa Johick

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:42 AM

View Postdciccoritti, on 11 June 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

View PostDeNinny, on 11 June 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

View Postdciccoritti, on 11 June 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

So I snuck in 9 holes on a PAR 3 course late this afternoon on my way home from visiting my mother, who is rehabbing due to a fractured pelvis. Ended up just playing 8 because there was a father with 2 very small kids on the 10th so I just scooted over to the 11th.

Anyways this is the first summer I've ever played blades thanks in large part to @DeNinny's crazy talk about how awesome blades are.
So I'm on the 17th and I remember someone on this forum who said "if you want to swing full out, just get a set of GI's or SGI's. Blades work much better with a smoother and more controlled swing". So I say to myself "Ok bud, let's see if you're right". So I take a 9 iron and put a nice smooth, controlled swing on the ball. Doesn't the ball go a full club longer and about 3 to 5 yards higher. I was blown away.

I can't wait to get back on the course and work on this some more. To me, blades are slowly started to feel like lower lofted wedges. It's an incredible feeling and I can't remember ever being this happy with my equipment. Bag is still incomplete, but I'm taking my time with what I want between my 6 iron and my driver.

Boring I know, but this is all new to me :-)

dciccoritti LOL I appreciate you opening your mind to my "crazy talk" (= physical reality, LMAO).  I'm only trying to help a fellow golfer and share what I learned on my blade using journey, that's all.

Welcome to the LIGHT side, my blade using buddy!  And FYI there's no need to take it slow.  Every stroke that you take with a "forgiving" iron is a stroke taken at a theoretical disadvantage had you taken it with a blade instead.

I've read many of your posts and enjoyed them all. I definitely owe you a big thank you because my new journey is very exciting, eye opening and all though this might rub some the wrong way, my swing and focus is actually improving. I'm hitting it better now then I've ever hit it before and the creativity aspect that I've always enjoyed in my short game is now seeping into my iron game. Thanks again :-)

I know this was a bit ago, but f ninja hasn't said it already, if you want hard info/fact that blades are no detriment to your game (or heck even better) then olay 10 rounds with the blades and then 10 rounds with your other irons. That will really open your eyes. It certainly did for this mid handicap
Eh who cares

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#13685 Nard_S

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:43 AM

View PostFellaheen51, on 19 June 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

Ha Ha Nard.  Precisely.  The "beaters" (aka players) are the WITB set.  Thereby, not concerned with damages inflicted by actually playing said irons.  They can rattle away in the bag (sans covers of course, how else to display the wares) and I have no fear.  The backup heads are more pristine.  Have them safely stored away.  Pull them out every now and again to make sure they're OK and to fondle.  

What made these first class irons was finally getting the right shafts into them.  Find the Nippon 950's to be entirely suitable to my capabilities.  Properly adjusted, extended and gripped, made be a believer in the possibilities.  Through some degree of experimentation and trial and error.  Driven by observation and feel, not by data.  A noble pursuit for a worthy goal.

I've contemplated a re-shaft on them and since I landed a real nice shaft puller and have several projects to hone my skills with,  it may yet happen. But first I have to settle on a swing plane I can live with and from yesterday's round it feels like I need to go back to the future and put my hands where I was always comfortable having them. Until that is settled stock 99's get the call. they are my comfortable shoes.


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#13686 Christen_The_Sloop

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:05 AM

View PostBigmean, on 19 June 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

View PostChristen_The_Sloop, on 19 June 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

View PostBigmean, on 18 June 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

Haha, touche.  I mean, he only hit it 300yds FFS.  How downwind does one need to be to hit a long iron 300yds?  It wasn't a hurricane, holy F%^&.

I am guilty of looking up brooks irons.  Never knew there was a Jpx like that.  I also love that tommy is pumping those blue Nike woods.

A 300 yard long iron is not totally mind blowing. Daly was doing that with a one-iron in the 1990s. Also, I have a titleist t-mb 3 iron that I hit on a flat course anywhere from 220 into the wind to 260 down wind. From an elevated tee in firm conditions down wind... Not crazy.

I might get flamed by people who only drive it 220 on a good day, but oh well.

Also impressive was the 178 PW patches, err ah tommy hit on that par 3.  Dudes were hitting 8, I think he just launched one up there and stuffed it.   I get you and I get how conditions dictate, hell that one hole I saw Justin Thomas with a 118 swing land a drive 260 cause in wind etc.  fox commentating couldn't be more off, but I like the stats on all the drives and ball tracker for almost all the shots.   Didn't even mind the glitches that happened.

Some of the iron distances blow me away. I was a long hitter with the irons back in the day (of Titleist Professionals and Maxfli Revolutions) and to see 180 pitching wedges is a little bit of a headshaker. But, then Is the PW loft the same as the 8 iron or 7 iron I used to hit that distance? Albeit the pros that are playing now are lot more competitive and use all they can to train to get their bodies in condition and I just sat on the couch and hit the bong, but, uh... what were we talking about again?
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#13687 No Catchy Nickname

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:12 AM

View PostChristen_The_Sloop, on 19 June 2017 - 09:05 AM, said:

View PostBigmean, on 19 June 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

View PostChristen_The_Sloop, on 19 June 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

View PostBigmean, on 18 June 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

Haha, touche.  I mean, he only hit it 300yds FFS.  How downwind does one need to be to hit a long iron 300yds?  It wasn't a hurricane, holy F%^&.

I am guilty of looking up brooks irons.  Never knew there was a Jpx like that.  I also love that tommy is pumping those blue Nike woods.

A 300 yard long iron is not totally mind blowing. Daly was doing that with a one-iron in the 1990s. Also, I have a titleist t-mb 3 iron that I hit on a flat course anywhere from 220 into the wind to 260 down wind. From an elevated tee in firm conditions down wind... Not crazy.

I might get flamed by people who only drive it 220 on a good day, but oh well.

Also impressive was the 178 PW patches, err ah tommy hit on that par 3.  Dudes were hitting 8, I think he just launched one up there and stuffed it.   I get you and I get how conditions dictate, hell that one hole I saw Justin Thomas with a 118 swing land a drive 260 cause in wind etc.  fox commentating couldn't be more off, but I like the stats on all the drives and ball tracker for almost all the shots.   Didn't even mind the glitches that happened.

Some of the iron distances blow me away. I was a long hitter with the irons back in the day (of Titleist Professionals and Maxfli Revolutions) and to see 180 pitching wedges is a little bit of a headshaker. But, then Is the PW loft the same as the 8 iron or 7 iron I used to hit that distance? Albeit the pros that are playing now are lot more competitive and use all they can to train to get their bodies in condition and I just sat on the couch and hit the bong, but, uh... what were we talking about again?

Yep, more than the long drives with lots of run, it was the extraordinary short iron distances that blew me away. 220 yard 7i shots and the like.
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#13688 NRJyzr

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:38 AM

View PostChristen_The_Sloop, on 19 June 2017 - 09:05 AM, said:

View PostBigmean, on 19 June 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

View PostChristen_The_Sloop, on 19 June 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

View PostBigmean, on 18 June 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

Haha, touche.  I mean, he only hit it 300yds FFS.  How downwind does one need to be to hit a long iron 300yds?  It wasn't a hurricane, holy F%^&.

I am guilty of looking up brooks irons.  Never knew there was a Jpx like that.  I also love that tommy is pumping those blue Nike woods.

A 300 yard long iron is not totally mind blowing. Daly was doing that with a one-iron in the 1990s. Also, I have a titleist t-mb 3 iron that I hit on a flat course anywhere from 220 into the wind to 260 down wind. From an elevated tee in firm conditions down wind... Not crazy.

I might get flamed by people who only drive it 220 on a good day, but oh well.

Also impressive was the 178 PW patches, err ah tommy hit on that par 3.  Dudes were hitting 8, I think he just launched one up there and stuffed it.   I get you and I get how conditions dictate, hell that one hole I saw Justin Thomas with a 118 swing land a drive 260 cause in wind etc.  fox commentating couldn't be more off, but I like the stats on all the drives and ball tracker for almost all the shots.   Didn't even mind the glitches that happened.

Some of the iron distances blow me away. I was a long hitter with the irons back in the day (of Titleist Professionals and Maxfli Revolutions) and to see 180 pitching wedges is a little bit of a headshaker. But, then Is the PW loft the same as the 8 iron or 7 iron I used to hit that distance? Albeit the pros that are playing now are lot more competitive and use all they can to train to get their bodies in condition and I just sat on the couch and hit the bong, but, uh... what were we talking about again?

You can never listen to the clubs the announcers mention on TV.  They are frequently inaccurate/inflated for various reasons, from caddies giving incorrect info to producers wanting to sell distance.

Shotlink, and the TrackMan averages frequently bandied about, show how much BS there is in what you hear on TV.   :)
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#13689 wmblake2000

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:49 AM

View PostJonesy, on 19 June 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

wmblake I dunno how you manage 2 1/2 hours at gym, I'd be broken! I gym for an hour maybe an hour and 15 max, lots of core and functional exercises for golf. It definitely helps, I've noticed increased distance as well as less fatigue on the golf course.

Played twice this weekend seeing as we had a long weekend, both times were nothing fantastic resulting in rounds of 75 and 76, both rounds started poorly (ok the one day I did have a hangover so that was my bad) and the back nine's were always better which was annoying. Still had fun out there, our course is in really good nick at the moment, the greens are rolling quick and they've firmed up nicely which makes it interesting... One of the best feelings is puring a mid length putt and knowing it's going to hold it's line then you just watch it drop.

I do about an hour of mobility exercises/stretching, 30 of speed swing stuff (1 legged, kneeling, etc) and 1 hr of strength plus a little hot tub/sauna afterwards. I am thrashed, to be sure. This is a regimen put together by an ex pro baseball pitcher now long drive guy I met on a different site.

Those are good rounds in my book. Love good greens!
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#13690 Nard_S

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:51 AM

Some time ago Davis love III said, 'do not pay attention to the clubs pros are using, they are not the same as what you buy'. Same article pointed out that that it was common for pros to de-loft about 3-4 degrees................that probably is still going on.

That being said, their efficiency is at ridiculous levels. The combining of technology and better skills has gotten to a point where the Tour is going to be forced to reel in the ball or build 8,000 + yard courses. I give it 5 years for the former.


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#13691 Christen_The_Sloop

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:52 AM

View PostNRJyzr, on 19 June 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

View PostChristen_The_Sloop, on 19 June 2017 - 09:05 AM, said:

View PostBigmean, on 19 June 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

View PostChristen_The_Sloop, on 19 June 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

View PostBigmean, on 18 June 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

Haha, touche.  I mean, he only hit it 300yds FFS.  How downwind does one need to be to hit a long iron 300yds?  It wasn't a hurricane, holy F%^&.

I am guilty of looking up brooks irons.  Never knew there was a Jpx like that.  I also love that tommy is pumping those blue Nike woods.

A 300 yard long iron is not totally mind blowing. Daly was doing that with a one-iron in the 1990s. Also, I have a titleist t-mb 3 iron that I hit on a flat course anywhere from 220 into the wind to 260 down wind. From an elevated tee in firm conditions down wind... Not crazy.

I might get flamed by people who only drive it 220 on a good day, but oh well.

Also impressive was the 178 PW patches, err ah tommy hit on that par 3.  Dudes were hitting 8, I think he just launched one up there and stuffed it.   I get you and I get how conditions dictate, hell that one hole I saw Justin Thomas with a 118 swing land a drive 260 cause in wind etc.  fox commentating couldn't be more off, but I like the stats on all the drives and ball tracker for almost all the shots.   Didn't even mind the glitches that happened.

Some of the iron distances blow me away. I was a long hitter with the irons back in the day (of Titleist Professionals and Maxfli Revolutions) and to see 180 pitching wedges is a little bit of a headshaker. But, then Is the PW loft the same as the 8 iron or 7 iron I used to hit that distance? Albeit the pros that are playing now are lot more competitive and use all they can to train to get their bodies in condition and I just sat on the couch and hit the bong, but, uh... what were we talking about again?

You can never listen to the clubs the announcers mention on TV.  They are frequently inaccurate/inflated for various reasons, from caddies giving incorrect info to producers wanting to sell distance.

Shotlink, and the TrackMan averages frequently bandied about, show how much BS there is in what you hear on TV.   :)

Yeah, and they highlight distance and don`t speak about the elevation or how downwind or how rock hard the landing area is or how shaved down the fairways are. Distance means nothing without distance control. All the power to people that hit it over 300. i think Harvey Penick has something to say about them.
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#13692 wmblake2000

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:15 AM

The thing about the distances is I watch this 210 8 iron or whatever and it's the same old story as it's always been since I began playing: how the hell do they do that? These guys are just better than I can imagine being. That's a big part of the lure. So now I can drive a ball 230-250 - as long as ever thx to better skill, better ball, better equipment. But the gap between me and a pro hasn't changed. They are still just from a different planet. I used to know a few guys right on the cusp of having their cards - would be on the tour a year then fall out. I played with them occasionally and they weren't awe inspiring - but they weren't Greg Norman either.

Edited by wmblake2000, 19 June 2017 - 10:16 AM.

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#13693 nzio

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:20 AM

Yeah and my 8 iron goes like 145 max. The gap is enormous

Edited by nzio, 19 June 2017 - 10:21 AM.

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#13694 Nard_S

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:37 AM

I am in awe of gap too. The depth of talent is something also.

But I would like to see shot making and ball control to be a bigger factor in tournament level play.

Make that and the wind a bigger factor by a ball that is higher spinning and less aerodynamic. More liquid center like. Reeling in driver size a bit would be plus.

Sorry don't mean to sound like an old curmudgeon. :)  Need to be careful, the Ranger will come after this bear.

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#13695 NRJyzr

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:40 AM

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think it's a big deal.  A couple years ago, just by swinging smoother (which is REALLY hard for me to do), I was hitting my Ping ISI 7 iron 180 yds.  I was an out of shape 51 year old at the time.  

Now, if *I* could do *that*, it's a no brainer the younguns can hit it farther.  While eating pizza and watching video on their phones.

I really see this as much ado about nothing.  Distance is self limiting.  Tony Finau could hit it a lot farther than he does, but he throttles down for control.  Hell, Jack did that, too.  

People forget Jack was hitting 330+ yard drives with the J's Professional Weapon.  With a wound ball.  At Senior events.

What we see now has always been there.

Edited by NRJyzr, 19 June 2017 - 10:59 AM.

The Ever Changing Bag!

Driver:  King LTD, HZRDUS 75 6.5 at 44½" --or-- R9 SuperDeep, Motore F1 85 X at 43½"

3w:  Stage 2 Tour 14.5°, BiMatrix X at 42½"

3h Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S and 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
--or--
2-PW Golden Ram TW282, Precision 6.5

SW:  Ram TG-898 56°, NV105 S  --or--  Golden Ram TW282 56°, Precision 6.5
LW:  Maltby Design 60°, NV105 S  --or--  Maltby Design 60°, DGS300 tipped 1"
Putter:  Tad Moore Pro 1 P  --or--  some form of 8802-ish blade  --or--  Ping Anser  --or-- Mizuno TPM-2
Balls:  in no particular order...  Wilson Staff FG Tour or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Vice Pro Neon
Shoes by New Balance
Pure Pro grips, various colors

15

#13696 Nard_S

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 11:21 AM

View PostNRJyzr, on 19 June 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

Speaking of Koepka's 'Zunos....

Take a look at his WITB here on WRX.  He has 4-PW, but then has a 48° and 52° Vokey.  The stock PW on the JPX Tours is 46°.  For him to carry a 48° on top of that, he has to have them bent strong, ala PMick's or Day's SOP with their irons.

I find it kind of funny.  :)

edited to add:  I was going to say something about Hogan's blade on blade, but I think Fella beat me to it (and nailed it).  It's just CG manipulation, and possibly a way to get a bit of substance behind shots a little higher on the face. Most blades don't do well with those, perhaps the Hogans do a bit better?

I've thought about scoring Hogans at some point, but I've just never done it.  Maybe one day I will...

This rings true to me. They feel best struck a groove or two higher than others.

16

#13697 tgoodspe1991

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 11:52 AM

View PostNard_S, on 19 June 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

Some time ago Davis love III said, 'do not pay attention to the clubs pros are using, they are not the same as what you buy'. Same article pointed out that that it was common for pros to de-loft about 3-4 degrees................that probably is still going on.

That being said, their efficiency is at ridiculous levels. The combining of technology and better skills has gotten to a point where the Tour is going to be forced to reel in the ball or build 8,000 + yard courses. I give it 5 years for the former.

What I don't get is... why would they do this? If you're going to deloft a 9-iron 4* from, say 42* to 38*, why not just use a 38* 8-iron?!

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17

#13698 Nard_S

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:15 PM

View Posttgoodspe1991, on 19 June 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 19 June 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

Some time ago Davis love III said, 'do not pay attention to the clubs pros are using, they are not the same as what you buy'. Same article pointed out that that it was common for pros to de-loft about 3-4 degrees................that probably is still going on.

That being said, their efficiency is at ridiculous levels. The combining of technology and better skills has gotten to a point where the Tour is going to be forced to reel in the ball or build 8,000 + yard courses. I give it 5 years for the former.

What I don't get is... why would they do this? If you're going to deloft a 9-iron 4* from, say 42* to 38*, why not just use a 38* 8-iron?!

A bit complicated but my guess is that the ball allowed for it to happen, if it flies straighter and cheats the wind better, then why not deloft and effectively get the accuracy of a 9 with the distance of an 8. Old school clubs had a 50 degree PW. Why? They needed the added loft to greater offset back spin from side spin because the ball was harder to control and the wind had a greater  effect on it.

Jack was bombing 330 in senior events but he was using a better tech. He could do it when he was in his prime but persimmon and balata added a lot of risk. The guy rarely aired it out in tournaments then, now the envelope of airing out is much higher and the risk much lower.

18

#13699 NRJyzr

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:31 PM

View PostNard_S, on 19 June 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

View Posttgoodspe1991, on 19 June 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 19 June 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

Some time ago Davis love III said, 'do not pay attention to the clubs pros are using, they are not the same as what you buy'. Same article pointed out that that it was common for pros to de-loft about 3-4 degrees................that probably is still going on.

That being said, their efficiency is at ridiculous levels. The combining of technology and better skills has gotten to a point where the Tour is going to be forced to reel in the ball or build 8,000 + yard courses. I give it 5 years for the former.

What I don't get is... why would they do this? If you're going to deloft a 9-iron 4* from, say 42* to 38*, why not just use a 38* 8-iron?!

A bit complicated but my guess is that the ball allowed for it to happen, if it flies straighter and cheats the wind better, then why not deloft and effectively get the accuracy of a 9 with the distance of an 8. Old school clubs had a 50 degree PW. Why? They needed the added loft to greater offset back spin from side spin because the ball was harder to control and the wind had a greater  effect on it.

Jack was bombing 330 in senior events but he was using a better tech. He could do it when he was in his prime but persimmon and balata added a lot of risk. The guy rarely aired it out in tournaments then, now the envelope of airing out is much higher and the risk much lower.

The accuracy largely comes from the greater backspin of the higher loft, that higher spin rate reduces the effect of any axis tilt (aka side spin) to the shot.   If you deloft the club 4°, you've reduced that spin, and that angular tilt can have a larger effect.

There's a logical fallacy to the marketing we've been fed as the reason for strengthening lofts.  That is, applying any sort of concrete meaning to the club number when discussing launch conditions.

Distance is determined by ballspeed, launch angle, and spin rate (I'm sidestepping wind for the moment).  Nowhere in that equation is there a spot for the club number.  If you change the loft, everything changes.  If you change the ballspeed, such as with a different swingspeed applied, everything changes.  If you change the spin rate, everything changes.  If you change the club number, nothing changes; the shot will be completely unaffected through changing that club number.

The only change would be how you view the shot.

No one should base their shot trajectory on the club number.  If you're hitting the ball too high for the ballspeed and spin you are applying for each club in your set, and deloft your irons to counter that, you will have lowered your trajectory and your spin rate, but you will also have increased your ballspeed.  And you're still likely to be hitting it too high for the ballspeed and spin rate you're imparting on the shot.

If someone hitting it too high with Set X, maybe they should look at using a different set.   ;)

Edited by NRJyzr, 19 June 2017 - 12:34 PM.

The Ever Changing Bag!

Driver:  King LTD, HZRDUS 75 6.5 at 44½" --or-- R9 SuperDeep, Motore F1 85 X at 43½"

3w:  Stage 2 Tour 14.5°, BiMatrix X at 42½"

3h Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S and 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
--or--
2-PW Golden Ram TW282, Precision 6.5

SW:  Ram TG-898 56°, NV105 S  --or--  Golden Ram TW282 56°, Precision 6.5
LW:  Maltby Design 60°, NV105 S  --or--  Maltby Design 60°, DGS300 tipped 1"
Putter:  Tad Moore Pro 1 P  --or--  some form of 8802-ish blade  --or--  Ping Anser  --or-- Mizuno TPM-2
Balls:  in no particular order...  Wilson Staff FG Tour or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Vice Pro Neon
Shoes by New Balance
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19

#13700 mahonie

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:24 PM

View PostNard_S, on 19 June 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

View Posttgoodspe1991, on 19 June 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 19 June 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

Some time ago Davis love III said, 'do not pay attention to the clubs pros are using, they are not the same as what you buy'. Same article pointed out that that it was common for pros to de-loft about 3-4 degrees................that probably is still going on.

That being said, their efficiency is at ridiculous levels. The combining of technology and better skills has gotten to a point where the Tour is going to be forced to reel in the ball or build 8,000 + yard courses. I give it 5 years for the former.

What I don't get is... why would they do this? If you're going to deloft a 9-iron 4* from, say 42* to 38*, why not just use a 38* 8-iron?!

A bit complicated but my guess is that the ball allowed for it to happen, if it flies straighter and cheats the wind better, then why not deloft and effectively get the accuracy of a 9 with the distance of an 8. Old school clubs had a 50 degree PW. Why? They needed the added loft to greater offset back spin from side spin because the ball was harder to control and the wind had a greater  effect on it.

Jack was bombing 330 in senior events but he was using a better tech. He could do it when he was in his prime but persimmon and balata added a lot of risk. The guy rarely aired it out in tournaments then, now the envelope of airing out is much higher and the risk much lower.

I remember Mickelson saying that the advent of the Pro V1 automatically added 30 yards to his driver because he could swing flat out knowing that the side spin would be far less than a wound balata ball and he would be straighter (I am not joking!). The technology in the ball where it spins slower off the driver than it does off a wedge is the real game changer. The groove change has helped with irons to keep the spin down but nothing has been done to add spin to the driver. I took my 'new' old Mac VIP Ltd's to the range yesterday for back-to-back testing with my MP4s. Now bearing in mind that I haven't had the lofts checked, the Macs were 1.5 to 2 clubs shorter club-for-club. I put this down to the grooves...I felt like the Macs were spinning up into the sky whereas the Mizzys were more penetrating because they were imparting less spin. The benefit of the Macs is that although they were short they were very accurate. The 2-iron is addictive...at address you think that you could only hit worm burners but it gives a beautiful 'stinger' flight that is so controllable. Best fun I've had in a while...hitting draws and cuts into a flag at about 185 yards. It brought back some great memories of hitting the same shots with balata balls back in the early 1990s.

Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
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#13701 NRJyzr

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:30 PM

View Postmahonie, on 19 June 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

...the Macs were 1.5 to 2 clubs shorter club-for-club. I put this down to the grooves...I felt like the Macs were spinning up into the sky whereas the Mizzys were more penetrating because they were imparting less spin...

With apologies for nitpicking a small part of your post....

It's not the grooves.  On full shots, unless you're hitting out of the rough, grooves create a negligible effect.  Early grooveless iron testing showed an actual increase in full shot spin.

The whole thing about grooves is just more marketing, and everyone buys into it....
The Ever Changing Bag!

Driver:  King LTD, HZRDUS 75 6.5 at 44½" --or-- R9 SuperDeep, Motore F1 85 X at 43½"

3w:  Stage 2 Tour 14.5°, BiMatrix X at 42½"

3h Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S and 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
--or--
2-PW Golden Ram TW282, Precision 6.5

SW:  Ram TG-898 56°, NV105 S  --or--  Golden Ram TW282 56°, Precision 6.5
LW:  Maltby Design 60°, NV105 S  --or--  Maltby Design 60°, DGS300 tipped 1"
Putter:  Tad Moore Pro 1 P  --or--  some form of 8802-ish blade  --or--  Ping Anser  --or-- Mizuno TPM-2
Balls:  in no particular order...  Wilson Staff FG Tour or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Vice Pro Neon
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21

#13702 mahonie

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:40 PM

View PostNRJyzr, on 19 June 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

View Postmahonie, on 19 June 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

...the Macs were 1.5 to 2 clubs shorter club-for-club. I put this down to the grooves...I felt like the Macs were spinning up into the sky whereas the Mizzys were more penetrating because they were imparting less spin...

With apologies for nitpicking a small part of your post....

It's not the grooves.  On full shots, unless you're hitting out of the rough, grooves create a negligible effect.  Early grooveless iron testing showed an actual increase in full shot spin.

The whole thing about grooves is just more marketing, and everyone buys into it....

I was pondering why I was hitting the Mac 9-iron 100 yards compared to the MP4 9-iron going out to my usual 130 yards. It could be down to shaft as they are very different, but it did feel as though the Macs were just 'spinning up.' I was getting range balls on hard pan to bounce once and stop with the Macs whereas the Mizzys were releasing out. Ballflight was noticeably higher with the Macs so it could be that the dynamic loft I am presenting at impact could be higher due to the shaft. It's not really an apples for apples test, just my interpretation of the feelings that the shots were giving.
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Odyssey ProType #2
Srixon Z-Star

22

#13703 NRJyzr

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:44 PM

View Postmahonie, on 19 June 2017 - 01:40 PM, said:

View PostNRJyzr, on 19 June 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

View Postmahonie, on 19 June 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

...the Macs were 1.5 to 2 clubs shorter club-for-club. I put this down to the grooves...I felt like the Macs were spinning up into the sky whereas the Mizzys were more penetrating because they were imparting less spin...

With apologies for nitpicking a small part of your post....

It's not the grooves.  On full shots, unless you're hitting out of the rough, grooves create a negligible effect.  Early grooveless iron testing showed an actual increase in full shot spin.

The whole thing about grooves is just more marketing, and everyone buys into it....

I was pondering why I was hitting the Mac 9-iron 100 yards compared to the MP4 9-iron going out to my usual 130 yards. It could be down to shaft as they are very different, but it did feel as though the Macs were just 'spinning up.' I was getting range balls on hard pan to bounce once and stop with the Macs whereas the Mizzys were releasing out. Ballflight was noticeably higher with the Macs so it could be that the dynamic loft I am presenting at impact could be higher due to the shaft. It's not really an apples for apples test, just my interpretation of the feelings that the shots were giving.

Those VIP Limiteds are probably a full club or club and a half weaker.  That would definitely make them spin more.

Same flex shafts?
The Ever Changing Bag!

Driver:  King LTD, HZRDUS 75 6.5 at 44½" --or-- R9 SuperDeep, Motore F1 85 X at 43½"

3w:  Stage 2 Tour 14.5°, BiMatrix X at 42½"

3h Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S and 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
--or--
2-PW Golden Ram TW282, Precision 6.5

SW:  Ram TG-898 56°, NV105 S  --or--  Golden Ram TW282 56°, Precision 6.5
LW:  Maltby Design 60°, NV105 S  --or--  Maltby Design 60°, DGS300 tipped 1"
Putter:  Tad Moore Pro 1 P  --or--  some form of 8802-ish blade  --or--  Ping Anser  --or-- Mizuno TPM-2
Balls:  in no particular order...  Wilson Staff FG Tour or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Vice Pro Neon
Shoes by New Balance
Pure Pro grips, various colors

23

#13704 Nard_S

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:50 PM

I remember Mickelson saying that the advent of the Pro V1 automatically added 30 yards to his driver because he could swing flat out knowing that the side spin would be far less than a wound balata ball and he would be straighter (I am not joking!). The technology in the ball where it spins slower off the driver than it does off a wedge is the real game changer. -Mahoni

So agree. I cannot speak to the clubs you compared but I still routinely play last generation 3 piece wound (Maxfli HT100') and I play Pro V1 X. Big difference is in how the wind effects one and not so much of the other. How one rolls truer than the other on the green.  The Pro V is flat out better in everything except feel. And those HT's were sort of in between Tour 100 balata and the Pro V in tech.

Great thing these days is you can pick & choose your comfort of tech and derive a definition of the game to some extent. When I want to have fun with the wind, it's the HT's, when I want to score, Pro V1 X. I want to max the tee shot, B300S.

24

#13705 mahonie

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:54 PM

View PostNRJyzr, on 19 June 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

View Postmahonie, on 19 June 2017 - 01:40 PM, said:

View PostNRJyzr, on 19 June 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

View Postmahonie, on 19 June 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

...the Macs were 1.5 to 2 clubs shorter club-for-club. I put this down to the grooves...I felt like the Macs were spinning up into the sky whereas the Mizzys were more penetrating because they were imparting less spin...

With apologies for nitpicking a small part of your post....

It's not the grooves.  On full shots, unless you're hitting out of the rough, grooves create a negligible effect.  Early grooveless iron testing showed an actual increase in full shot spin.

The whole thing about grooves is just more marketing, and everyone buys into it....

I was pondering why I was hitting the Mac 9-iron 100 yards compared to the MP4 9-iron going out to my usual 130 yards. It could be down to shaft as they are very different, but it did feel as though the Macs were just 'spinning up.' I was getting range balls on hard pan to bounce once and stop with the Macs whereas the Mizzys were releasing out. Ballflight was noticeably higher with the Macs so it could be that the dynamic loft I am presenting at impact could be higher due to the shaft. It's not really an apples for apples test, just my interpretation of the feelings that the shots were giving.

Those VIP Limiteds are probably a full club or club and a half weaker.  That would definitely make them spin more.

Same flex shafts?

I'm guessing that the Mac 9-iron is 45* versus 42* for the Mizzy but I wouldn't have thought that would account for 30 yards. The Macs have Tourney Taper #1 Stiff shafts, Mizzys have S300s...the Macs feel slightly heavier but I've no real idea on comparative swingweights.

Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
Odyssey ProType #2
Srixon Z-Star

25

#13706 NRJyzr

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:19 PM

Economy of posting!   LOL

View PostNard_S, on 19 June 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

I remember Mickelson saying that the advent of the Pro V1 automatically added 30 yards to his driver because he could swing flat out knowing that the side spin would be far less than a wound balata ball and he would be straighter (I am not joking!). The technology in the ball where it spins slower off the driver than it does off a wedge is the real game changer. -Mahoni

So agree. I cannot speak to the clubs you compared but I still routinely play last generation 3 piece wound (Maxfli HT100') and I play Pro V1 X. Big difference is in how the wind effects one and not so much of the other. How one rolls truer than the other on the green.  The Pro V is flat out better in everything except feel. And those HT's were sort of in between Tour 100 balata and the Pro V in tech.

Great thing these days is you can pick & choose your comfort of tech and derive a definition of the game to some extent. When I want to have fun with the wind, it's the HT's, when I want to score, Pro V1 X. I want to max the tee shot, B300S.

I've always found the HT-100 to be a superior wind ball.  The shot I remember the most was hitting a PW with a 20mph side wind.  I hit the ball at the left edge of the green expecting some drift, and it landed at the left edge of the green.  Didn't so much as twitch.

Now curving due to draws and fades?  Hell yeah.  My first time putting one of those in play after a couple years, I had to laugh at the little draws and fades I'd get almost randomly.  

To me, that's the biggest thing about the ball.  It's straighter.  It's not really particularly longer, other than the effects of lower spin on the longer clubs.



View Postmahonie, on 19 June 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'm guessing that the Mac 9-iron is 45* versus 42* for the Mizzy but I wouldn't have thought that would account for 30 yards. The Macs have Tourney Taper #1 Stiff shafts, Mizzys have S300s...the Macs feel slightly heavier but I've no real idea on comparative swingweights.

It's quite possible the 9 iron on those VIP Limiteds could be as weak as 48°.  The 52° PW still existed into the late 60s and early 70s, and your set, um, I mean your friend's set (LOL), are very much an early 70s club.

They could be anywhere between that and the 46° 9 iron seen in the FG-17s, which were in 1981-83.

Beyond that, it could be all sorts of things involved.  Shafts, different CG placement, varying static or swing weight, mahonie studliness....  

As for grooves, square grooves didn't come about largely until the Eye2 in 1982.  They're probably V grooves.  Your Mizunos probably also have V grooves, there are a few stories around about how Mizuno never went to square grooves in their blades.  Maybe even all irons.  <shrug>
The Ever Changing Bag!

Driver:  King LTD, HZRDUS 75 6.5 at 44½" --or-- R9 SuperDeep, Motore F1 85 X at 43½"

3w:  Stage 2 Tour 14.5°, BiMatrix X at 42½"

3h Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S and 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
--or--
2-PW Golden Ram TW282, Precision 6.5

SW:  Ram TG-898 56°, NV105 S  --or--  Golden Ram TW282 56°, Precision 6.5
LW:  Maltby Design 60°, NV105 S  --or--  Maltby Design 60°, DGS300 tipped 1"
Putter:  Tad Moore Pro 1 P  --or--  some form of 8802-ish blade  --or--  Ping Anser  --or-- Mizuno TPM-2
Balls:  in no particular order...  Wilson Staff FG Tour or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Vice Pro Neon
Shoes by New Balance
Pure Pro grips, various colors

26

#13707 mahonie

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:36 PM

View PostNard_S, on 19 June 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

I remember Mickelson saying that the advent of the Pro V1 automatically added 30 yards to his driver because he could swing flat out knowing that the side spin would be far less than a wound balata ball and he would be straighter (I am not joking!). The technology in the ball where it spins slower off the driver than it does off a wedge is the real game changer. -Mahoni

So agree. I cannot speak to the clubs you compared but I still routinely play last generation 3 piece wound (Maxfli HT100') and I play Pro V1 X. Big difference is in how the wind effects one and not so much of the other. How one rolls truer than the other on the green.  The Pro V is flat out better in everything except feel. And those HT's were sort of in between Tour 100 balata and the Pro V in tech.

Great thing these days is you can pick &amp; choose your comfort of tech and derive a definition of the game to some extent. When I want to have fun with the wind, it's the HT's, when I want to score, Pro V1 X. I want to max the tee shot, B300S.

Played some of my best golf with Tour 100 balata in the early 90s. Seemed to help with my short game which has never been great. I remember being able to play a chip shot when I could go straight for the flag and the ball would bounce once and just stop. Occasionally I would thin it and make the ball smile but the pleasure of stopping it on a sixpence was worth it.
Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
Odyssey ProType #2
Srixon Z-Star

27

#13708 RobotDoctor

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:45 PM

View PostNRJyzr, on 19 June 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

Speaking of Koepka's 'Zunos....

Take a look at his WITB here on WRX.  He has 4-PW, but then has a 48° and 52° Vokey.  The stock PW on the JPX Tours is 46°.  For him to carry a 48° on top of that, he has to have them bent strong, ala PMick's or Day's SOP with their irons.

I find it kind of funny.  :)

edited to add:  I was going to say something about Hogan's blade on blade, but I think Fella beat me to it (and nailed it).  It's just CG manipulation, and possibly a way to get a bit of substance behind shots a little higher on the face.  Most blades don't do well with those, perhaps the Hogans do a bit better?

I've thought about scoring Hogans at some point, but I've just never done it.  Maybe one day I will...

I game a set of '99 Hogan Apex irons and they are fabulous!  Pretty forgiving as far as blades go but you still have to put a good swing on the clubs.  I have gamed many forged blades during my 31 years of playing and the '99 Apex are some of the most solid and forgiving blades I have ever hit.  Best part is that these are still relevant with today's balls.  I strongly recommend the '99 Apex irons for anyone wanting to venture into the true blade category.

I just picked up a second set of '99 Apex irons (3-E, heads only) and will have the chrome stripped and grooves modified to current day legal USGA box grooves.  I will swingweight these with lead tape once shafted and gripped.

Edited by RobotDoctor, 20 June 2017 - 05:17 PM.

Titleist 905S 9.5 degree Fujikura Pro 73 Tour Spec stiff
Titleist 906F2 15 degree Fujikura Pro 73 Tour Spec stiff (6g shaft plug)
Taylormade SLDR 2 Hybrid Fujikura Motore stiff
Ben Hogan Apex '99 blades (3-E) Nippon Modus Tour 120 stiff
Scratch Golf GW and LW Nippon Modus Tour 120 stiff
Byron Morgan Epic Day Long Pipe CU plated

28

#13709 mahonie

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:49 PM

View PostNRJyzr, on 19 June 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

Economy of posting!   LOL

View PostNard_S, on 19 June 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

I remember Mickelson saying that the advent of the Pro V1 automatically added 30 yards to his driver because he could swing flat out knowing that the side spin would be far less than a wound balata ball and he would be straighter (I am not joking!). The technology in the ball where it spins slower off the driver than it does off a wedge is the real game changer. -Mahoni

So agree. I cannot speak to the clubs you compared but I still routinely play last generation 3 piece wound (Maxfli HT100') and I play Pro V1 X. Big difference is in how the wind effects one and not so much of the other. How one rolls truer than the other on the green.  The Pro V is flat out better in everything except feel. And those HT's were sort of in between Tour 100 balata and the Pro V in tech.

Great thing these days is you can pick &amp; choose your comfort of tech and derive a definition of the game to some extent. When I want to have fun with the wind, it's the HT's, when I want to score, Pro V1 X. I want to max the tee shot, B300S.

I've always found the HT-100 to be a superior wind ball.  The shot I remember the most was hitting a PW with a 20mph side wind.  I hit the ball at the left edge of the green expecting some drift, and it landed at the left edge of the green.  Didn't so much as twitch.

Now curving due to draws and fades?  Hell yeah.  My first time putting one of those in play after a couple years, I had to laugh at the little draws and fades I'd get almost randomly.  

To me, that's the biggest thing about the ball.  It's straighter.  It's not really particularly longer, other than the effects of lower spin on the longer clubs.



View Postmahonie, on 19 June 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'm guessing that the Mac 9-iron is 45* versus 42* for the Mizzy but I wouldn't have thought that would account for 30 yards. The Macs have Tourney Taper #1 Stiff shafts, Mizzys have S300s...the Macs feel slightly heavier but I've no real idea on comparative swingweights.

It's quite possible the 9 iron on those VIP Limiteds could be as weak as 48°.  The 52° PW still existed into the late 60s and early 70s, and your set, um, I mean your friend's set (LOL), are very much an early 70s club.

They could be anywhere between that and the 46° 9 iron seen in the FG-17s, which were in 1981-83.

Beyond that, it could be all sorts of things involved.  Shafts, different CG placement, varying static or swing weight, mahonie studliness....  

As for grooves, square grooves didn't come about largely until the Eye2 in 1982.  They're probably V grooves.  Your Mizunos probably also have V grooves, there are a few stories around about how Mizuno never went to square grooves in their blades.  Maybe even all irons.  <shrug>

The loft of the 9-iron being around 48* would actually make sense...I usually hit my 52* gap wedge around 110 yards so that ties in. I am due to get the lofts and lies checked and perhaps get them regripped. I could actually swap them straight into the bag for the Mizzy 4-PW once I have done that. As a 'picker' I love the sharp leading edge.

I've never really paid that much attention to grooves apart from in wedges. I know that I get a lot more spin from something like the Nike VR Forged than the Mizzy T4s...I couldn't stand to see brand new balls shredded though :-/
Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
Odyssey ProType #2
Srixon Z-Star

29

#13710 Nard_S

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:05 PM

View Postmahonie, on 19 June 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 19 June 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

I remember Mickelson saying that the advent of the Pro V1 automatically added 30 yards to his driver because he could swing flat out knowing that the side spin would be far less than a wound balata ball and he would be straighter (I am not joking!). The technology in the ball where it spins slower off the driver than it does off a wedge is the real game changer. -Mahoni

So agree. I cannot speak to the clubs you compared but I still routinely play last generation 3 piece wound (Maxfli HT100') and I play Pro V1 X. Big difference is in how the wind effects one and not so much of the other. How one rolls truer than the other on the green.  The Pro V is flat out better in everything except feel. And those HT's were sort of in between Tour 100 balata and the Pro V in tech.

Great thing these days is you can pick &amp; choose your comfort of tech and derive a definition of the game to some extent. When I want to have fun with the wind, it's the HT's, when I want to score, Pro V1 X. I want to max the tee shot, B300S.

Played some of my best golf with Tour 100 balata in the early 90s. Seemed to help with my short game which has never been great. I remember being able to play a chip shot when I could go straight for the flag and the ball would bounce once and just stop. Occasionally I would thin it and make the ball smile but the pleasure of stopping it on a sixpence was worth it.

When I first started I was a complete poser in this sense. I always used Tour 100's. :)  For the same you liked them, around the greens. Closest thing i have come across to replicating their action is the Pro V1 X. They do not feel as good but they do bite greens nicely.


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