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The "Natural swing motion" and the "Hands"

natural hands

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#61 FatReed

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 05:49 PM

View Post1lovegolf24, on 26 March 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

FarReed,

Thanks for the video. I am also a fan of Tom Tomasello who believes the hands control the swing.

@ 6:20

https://www.youtube....h?v=V1JkT2ZLwos

Also, IMHO, Hogan Figured this out also.

Watch the first 10 sec of this video.

https://www.youtube....h?v=hQQRwHAZ2Ik

Here is my personal beliefs from the start of my journey. it is really corny, but has always been my belief that a swing is the same as a throw motion and developed,executed naturally.

https://www.youtube....h?v=dZnkqpVy0x8


Lastly, it is surprising how often the word natural comes up in golf analysis and instruction lately???????????

Thanks Lovegolf. I have watched the Tomasello videos 100 times; same for Yoda videos. They could be talking about how to bake a cake and it would be enjoyable.

I enjoyed your personal journey video.

Interesting to me that Yoda teaches TGM, which most find highly technical yet, in the midst of his teachings, he kind of sneaks in there the notion you raise about simply directly the hands and they will control the rest.

I have other external cues that carry similar automatisms, particularly with putting, chipping and short pitch shots. Personally, I have found the focus of club path away and back through the ball to be almost full proof. Just visualize the path away and back, and the hands deliver the goods without a single other thought.

Edited by FatReed, 27 March 2015 - 10:34 AM.


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#62 1lovegolf24

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:07 AM

View PostFatReed, on 26 March 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

View Post1lovegolf24, on 26 March 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

FarReed,

Thanks for the video. I am also a fan of Tom Tomasello who believes the hands control the swing.

@ 6:20

https://www.youtube....h?v=V1JkT2ZLwos

Also, IMHO, Hogan Figured this out also.

Watch the first 10 sec of this video.

https://www.youtube....h?v=hQQRwHAZ2Ik

Here is my personal beliefs from the start of my journey. it is really corny, but has always been my belief that a swing is the same as a throw motion and developed,executed naturally.

https://www.youtube....h?v=dZnkqpVy0x8


Lastly, it is surprising how often the word natural comes up in golf analysis and instruction lately???????????

Thanks Lovegolf. I have watched the Tomasello videos 100 times; same for Yoda videos. They could be talking about how to bake a cake and it would be enjoyable.

I enjoyed your personal journey video.

Interesting to me that Yoda teaches TGM, which most find highly technical yet, in the midst of his teachings, he kind of sneaks in there the notion you raise about simply directly the hands and they will control the rest.

I have other external cues that carry similar automatisms, particularly with putting, chipping and short pitch shots. Personally, I have found the focus of club path away and back through the ball to be almost full proof. Just visualize the path away and back, and the hands body deliver the goods without a single other thought.


FatReed,

Thanks for the post. Very interesting comment on visualization.

In my personal opinion, eventually, even the path of the club and hands become secondary to the feel of the club in the hands and their intent.

At that point the club is an absolute extension of the hand, arm, body. Once that level is reached, it becomes a point or place on the object(ball) we want to strike that matches up with a point or place of the club we want to strike it with that match up. I would liken this to the simple, natural motion of slapping something with the hand in which I never think of the path of the hand but rather a matching of force to object.
Same with the progression of hand ball, to ping pong to tennis.
From that we naturally progress through trial and error and reflection to develop shots by feel(hands).

Here is a great video, (part 2 of 8) in which Tigers refers to natural and pressure, along with the role the hands play in executing shots. The whole series is rather good, IMO and really gives an insight to how each of us is an individual and have to figure out the game for ourselves regarding what works.

https://www.youtube....89B32474B58D451

Edited by 1lovegolf24, 27 March 2015 - 10:12 AM.


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#63 FatReed

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 11:10 AM

Lovegolf,

To use walking as example, it does not need to be taught, and all healthy humans develop the 'skill' in the exact same and repeatable fashion. Golf, on the other hand, seems to come naturally in a very non-proficient manner after a certain age (please see below). Namely, nearly all golfers tend to naturally have the same 'hit' impulse that results in the same ineffective sequence that appears over and over on courses and ranges across the globe. So, what comes natural is typically highly ineffective. It starts with an OTT move that results in the same compensations that allows one to actually hit the ball (OTT --> too steep --> EE to shallow --> and a flip to save). As with walking, although improper, a motion gets ingrained and is very difficult to change.

So, does an effective golf motion need to be taught, or can it be learned? There is a theory out there in the golfing world that after the age of 10, or so, learning golf becomes significantly more difficult - at least learning an effective/efficient golf swing. The theory, which I feel carries significant merit, is based on the premise that young golfers do not have the strength to overpower the weight of a golf club, and they are forced to naturally employ the laws of physics - rather than fight them. The concept of L chasing T has been made prominent on another forum, and I believe you are member on that site and have probably followed the threads to which I allude. On the surface, anyone trying to change their swing DNA will find the concepts difficult to employ. However, I believe younger golfers are forced to employ physics, as they cannot overcome (fight) physics.

So, how does one develop a swing once they have become physically mature and decide to take up the game? Worse yet, after they have ingrained a movement pattern that is so insufficient? Rather than having L chase T, they go to local teaching professionals, listen to friends, surf the web, etc and the path taken is often a dead end road. Sure, there are those that dig it out of the dirt with time, but the fact that the average golfer is not very good and not getting any better - despite modern advances in teaching and equipment.

On the flip side of the coin, how many times have you heard the story of an accomplished golfer losing their swing because they abandon the road traveled for the first 20 years of their life - what got them there - in pursuit of a change in what they largely developed naturally?

Learning the golf swing does not require anyone to learn physics, but learning to swing the club efficiently and effectively does require one to properly employ physics - not fight it. Yes, as you state, this should all come naturally and, I believe, does in young individuals who are forced to work with physics. For those who have engrained the fight against physics, the battle is immense and most often not overcome through modern teachings.

Edited by FatReed, 27 March 2015 - 12:13 PM.


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#64 1lovegolf24

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:56 PM

FatReed,

Plus 1

Great summary of problems facing golf instruction as well as information, findings and direction that may very well lead us to improvement and understanding our swing motion. Thanks

Mehlhorn had a simple approach and solution to many of the problems we face in learning naturally both at a young age and as we get older. He believed in and taught Naturalness and Learning by Association as well as being your own best teacher.

He also stated how important the hands were in the golf swing and the role they played.

It would really be interesting to hear from others what they think as well as what works for them?

Thanks again FatReed

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#65 FatReed

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 01:09 PM

For those who have traveled the wrong path, I believe the first place to start is to develop a keen awareness of gravity (club head weight). Until one learns to feel the weight of the club head through gravitational forces, they will never be able to work effortlessly with gravity (physics). Of course, this occurs through the only part of the club attached to the club - the hands.


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#66 1lovegolf24

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 05:55 PM

FatReed,

Yes , I believe that is true, and now you have ventured into Ernest Jones's territory. LOL.

Another interesting thing I have noticed is your avatar. Sir Count Yogi , if I am not mistaken?. IMO, Probably , but arguably, the greatest ball striker that ever lived.

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#67 FatReed

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 06:22 PM

View Post1lovegolf24, on 27 March 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

FatReed,

Yes , I believe that is true, and now you have ventured into Ernest Jones's territory. LOL.

Another interesting thing I have noticed is your avatar. Sir Count Yogi , if I am not mistaken?. IMO, Probably , but arguably, the greatest ball striker that ever lived.

Lovegolf,

Honestly, I have no idea who the individual is in my avatar?

Thought is was a cool picture that was golf related and seemed appropriate.

Wish there were more thought behind the process.

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#68 1lovegolf24

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 01:28 AM

https://www.youtube....h?v=2Mop20lNz5Q

Here is a comment attached to the video.

"Using 1950's technology equipment, the Count is driving the ball straight, 400 + yards with his unique 2-Move, Elliptical Arc Swing. Using 'Force' is stronger, healthier and younger than using and relying on personal physical power. The properties of 'force' are easier to do and maintain once you know how to move and think!"

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#69 1lovegolf24

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 10:04 AM

Here is a small tid bit of information but an important one in my opinion regarding the hands.

Research has told us that the brain always knows where the thumbs are.

Via Mehlhorn, Vardon believed that the thumb and forefinger are the most important fingers of the hand and in the golf swing.

However, conventional golf instruction has suggested that those same digits are swing wreckers!

Did I miss something?

So here is something I have never understood about golf instruction, how could 2 of the greatest golfers ever offer different opinions about the hands? One being Vardon and Mehlhorn, then Hogan says this, ...................

Starting @ 8:12 Hogan offers something different? A large portion of Hogan's Five Lesson was dedicated to the hands. Hogan even believe that if we changed our grip, we changed our swing?
Are we dealing with semantics, articulation here, interpretation or just personal preference? Either way the hands always seem to be the focal point of any swing motion.

https://www.youtube....h?v=34GOeyjr0Uw

Just my thoughts and more questions than answers here.

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#70 1lovegolf24

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 10:19 AM

Hogan , I believe, said, " If you change your grip, you change your whole swing".

How profound! I couldn't think of a more appropriate statement that would lead one to view the "hands" as the most important factor regarding control of ones swing motion.

Hogan also suggested we work on the grip at least a half hr a day. Wow! You would have to ask yourself, why and what exactly would we be working on?

maybe it is the arms that should be left out of the swing?

Anyway, just thinking out loud here.

Edited by 1lovegolf24, 11 April 2015 - 10:02 PM.


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#71 1lovegolf24

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 12:35 PM

Just checking in. Been away for awhile, but never stopped searching. Went back to the beginning and figured out a few things that involve the hands that work for me.
Anyone out there with new info or old, that has helped their swing?
Cheers

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#72 1lovegolf24

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 03:04 PM

With regards to the task at hand and intent,do the hands act instinctively, react, lead,or follow the bodies motion?
I asked myself this question many times. Just wondering if anyone has figured out this relationship and still be able to golf?

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#73 Millbrook

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 05:13 PM

View Post1lovegolf24, on 26 January 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

With regards to the task at hand and intent,do the hands act instinctively, react, lead,or follow the bodies motion?
I asked myself this question many times. Just wondering if anyone has figured out this relationship and still be able to golf?

Whats more to the point have you figured it out.

PS - Your Hogan reference a couple of posts above regarding practising the grip is grossly misleading, but I suspect you know that.
All comments are made from the point of
view of my learning and not a claim
to expertise.

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#74 1lovegolf24

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 12:36 PM

I believe, based on experience from using other tools, is that the  body follows the hands, and the hands react to the weight. However, to apply this , it is a simple matter of intent to swing the weight, regardless of what does what.
With regards to the grip, maybe Hogan spent more time on the "club" grip, that fit his actual "hand" grip? I'll never really know for sure, but for me, the tool dictates my swing, if I want to hit the ball accurately and consistently.

Cheers

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#75 AlexCzervic

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 06:16 PM

View Post1lovegolf24, on 26 January 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

With regards to the task at hand and intent,do the hands act instinctively, react, lead,or follow the bodies motion?
I asked myself this question many times. Just wondering if anyone has figured out this relationship and still be able to golf?

Most people are clueless about the hands & arms. Most people attempt pivot controlled hands, most people do not have the talent necessary. Other people employ hand controlled pivot, those people enjoy effortless golf and have long careers. Both methods require educated hands. If you don't understand, figure it out or don't.

AC


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#76 northgolf

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 06:27 PM

Dialogue of the Hands

The right hand, in a fit of characteristic pride, yelled at the left hand, YOU FOOT! -- the most devastating curse it knew.

The feet. in their shame, stood by, silent as oxen.

--Don Riggs
No matter where you go, there you are.

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#77 Nard_S

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 05:53 PM

View Post1lovegolf24, on 11 April 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Hogan , I believe, said, " If you change your grip, you change your whole swing".

How profound! I couldn't think of a more appropriate statement that would lead one to view the "hands" as the most important factor regarding control of ones swing motion.

Hogan also suggested we work on the grip at least a half hr a day. Wow! You would have to ask yourself, why and what exactly would we be working on?

maybe it is the arms that should be left out of the swing?

Anyway, just thinking out loud here.

The grip is the trump card of  setup....it can have profound effects on your ball striking with little effort for the adjustment.

I clicked on this topic because I have had to address my "hitter" tendencies to overcome basic swing flaws.

Doing that has led to me to the conclusion that a great swing is one where you are both  a"hitter" and a "swinger".
Ricky Fowler and Rory are hitters who have great body command. They use both at a high level to attain the power and accuracy they possess. Nicklaus & the ultimate swinger Snead did the same.

A golf swing is about tuning the body to work at the high level your hands do in everyday life. That is why it is so difficult to do.

Cheers.

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#78 1lovegolf24

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 04:35 PM

View PostNard_S, on 23 April 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

View Post1lovegolf24, on 11 April 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Hogan , I believe, said, " If you change your grip, you change your whole swing".

How profound! I couldn't think of a more appropriate statement that would lead one to view the "hands" as the most important factor regarding control of ones swing motion.

Hogan also suggested we work on the grip at least a half hr a day. Wow! You would have to ask yourself, why and what exactly would we be working on?

maybe it is the arms that should be left out of the swing?

Anyway, just thinking out loud here.

The grip is the trump card of  setup....it can have profound effects on your ball striking with little effort for the adjustment.

I clicked on this topic because I have had to address my "hitter" tendencies to overcome basic swing flaws.

Doing that has led to me to the conclusion that a great swing is one where you are both  a"hitter" and a "swinger".
Ricky Fowler and Rory are hitters who have great body command. They use both at a high level to attain the power and accuracy they possess. Nicklaus & the ultimate swinger Snead did the same.

A golf swing is about tuning the body to work at the high level your hands do in everyday life. That is why it is so difficult to do.

Cheers.



Grip pressure?

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#79 1lovegolf24

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 10:14 PM

Is there really a reason why the hands return to address position at impact.

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#80 Hawkeye77

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 10:17 PM

View Post1lovegolf24, on 18 June 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

Is there really a reason why the hands return to address position at impact.

Do they?

#ilovemyselfsoikeeppostingquestionstome


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#81 juststeve

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:38 AM

View PostHawkeye77, on 18 June 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

View Post1lovegolf24, on 18 June 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

Is there really a reason why the hands return to address position at impact.

Do they?

#ilovemyselfsoikeeppostingquestionstome

I think they tend to unless you do something to prevent it.

Steve

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#82 Nosebuckle

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:10 AM

View Post1lovegolf24, on 18 June 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

Is there really a reason why the hands return to address position at impact.

A poor golf swing might do it. Your hands shouldn't be in the same position at impact.

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#83 bph7

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 11:53 AM

View PostNosebuckle, on 19 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

View Post1lovegolf24, on 18 June 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

Is there really a reason why the hands return to address position at impact.

A poor golf swing might do it. Your hands shouldn't be in the same position at impact.

This. Anyone who says otherwise does not know what they are talking about.

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#84 juststeve

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:11 PM

View PostNosebuckle, on 19 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

View Post1lovegolf24, on 18 June 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

Is there really a reason why the hands return to address position at impact.

A poor golf swing might do it. Your hands shouldn't be in the same position at impact.

It really depends on what you mean by the same position.  My hands will be a bit forward  of where they were at address, but I want them to square the face without manipulation.  For me that means that the back of my left hand is square to the target as it was at address.  

Steve

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#85 northgolf

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:41 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 19 June 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

View PostNosebuckle, on 19 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

View Post1lovegolf24, on 18 June 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

Is there really a reason why the hands return to address position at impact.

A poor golf swing might do it. Your hands shouldn't be in the same position at impact.

It really depends on what you mean by the same position.  My hands will be a bit forward  of where they were at address, but I want them to square the face without manipulation.  For me that means that the back of my left hand is square to the target as it was at address.  

Steve

That covers orientation, I quite doubt they are at the same height as well.  Forward and higher just does not check the "same position" box for me.

No matter where you go, there you are.

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#86 marte

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:45 PM

View Post1lovegolf24, on 22 April 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

I believe, based on experience from using other tools, is that the  body follows the hands, and the hands react to the weight. However, to apply this , it is a simple matter of intent to swing the weight, regardless of what does what.
With regards to the grip, maybe Hogan spent more time on the "club" grip, that fit his actual "hand" grip? I'll never really know for sure, but for me, the tool dictates my swing, if I want to hit the ball accurately and consistently.

Cheers

Ilovegolf...as this thread was started 2 1/2 years ago...I'm wondering if your game has improved after all the thought and research you've put into "the hands"?

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#87 juststeve

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:11 PM

View Postnorthgolf, on 19 June 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 19 June 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

View PostNosebuckle, on 19 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

View Post1lovegolf24, on 18 June 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

Is there really a reason why the hands return to address position at impact.

A poor golf swing might do it. Your hands shouldn't be in the same position at impact.

It really depends on what you mean by the same position.  My hands will be a bit forward  of where they were at address, but I want them to square the face without manipulation.  For me that means that the back of my left hand is square to the target as it was at address.  

Steve

That covers orientation, I quite doubt they are at the same height as well.  Forward and higher just does not check the "same position" box for me.

You are correct Sir.  Orientation is a better word for what I was trying to say.

Steve

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#88 northgolf

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:07 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 19 June 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

View Postnorthgolf, on 19 June 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 19 June 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

View PostNosebuckle, on 19 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

View Post1lovegolf24, on 18 June 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

Is there really a reason why the hands return to address position at impact.

A poor golf swing might do it. Your hands shouldn't be in the same position at impact.

It really depends on what you mean by the same position.  My hands will be a bit forward  of where they were at address, but I want them to square the face without manipulation.  For me that means that the back of my left hand is square to the target as it was at address.  

Steve

That covers orientation, I quite doubt they are at the same height as well.  Forward and higher just does not check the "same position" box for me.

You are correct Sir.  Orientation is a better word for what I was trying to say.

Steve

As said in "Roadhouse", calling me sir is like putting and elevator in an outhouse.
No matter where you go, there you are.

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#89 1lovegolf24

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 07:51 PM

Yes, I too believe the hands should pass through the same space they were at address. Of course,each person will IMO ,have their own hand position as they pass through. What surprises me is, most heads drop, yet hands don't?

Edited by 1lovegolf24, 28 June 2017 - 07:53 PM.


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#90 Lefthook

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 10:47 AM

Hands drop on Garcia. But he isn't normal.


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