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No Wrist Break Swing


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#1 kirkj01

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 11:54 AM

Hello all,

I have been enjoying reading some of the posts in this section of the forum and thought I would start my own...

A few months ago while searching for the secret swing I tried swinging without breaking my wrists at all.  I had always run into problems regarding whether I was breaking too early or too late etc etc.  Coupled with the new swing I went to heavier stiffer irons (& driver).  I also went to a 10 finger grip and increased the pressure of my grip...  making sure I maintained the angle between the club and the forearms throught.

I can honesly say that after parcticing this method for some time I have never hit the ball any better.   I am a competent golfer who has shot quite a few rounds at par or slightly less.  My driver SS is around 115.My consistency has increased dramatically.

One problem I do have is that I tend to turn over my approach shots a bit.  To try and counter this I am going to get my short irons bent flat a little more as well as put on larger grips.  I am hoping this will help this.

With my driver I have taken to teeing the ball up around 3 inches...  it takes some practice to get used to this..  but again the results have been overwhelming.  I feel the new deep face drivers complement my new driver swing.  I have also insert a 95g shaft which helps with the feel as well as tempo.

My swing stops at the top with the club pointing at about 12 or 1 o'clock when looking from the front.  But the clubhead is pointing straight away from my arms (if you understand) - no wrist breakwhatsoever.  I keep both my knees flexed and concentrate to keep my posture as good as possible.  I feel that when I get my hands and club face back to the ball I am striking down in it with great power.  Maybe not any more speed but with a lot more strength - which I feel is why I am hitting the ball as well as I am and as far as I ever have...  if not further.  And again the 'shorter' backswing increases my consistency.

So I guess what I am asking here is has anyone tried a similar swing and are you having similar results?  Any strong points or negatives?

I have read other swing thoughts...  S&T and Moe Norman style golf amongst others...  I don't believe that this method is a copy, or particularly similar, to either of these.  I have noticed Tiger's swing at contact and through the ball he does not break his wrist/angle for a considerable period of time.  I guess this is where I first thought of this idea.  (My hands perhaps ar not strong enough to do this using a normal overlap or interlocking grip.)

My short wedge game has also improved considerably.

All comments and feedback welcome.

Thanks


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#2 wildwilly911

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 12:16 PM

115 mph with no wrist ****, who you kidding, you cant rotate that fast. show a video please

#3 kirkj01

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 01:45 PM

unfortunately i am not presently able to post a video of my swing.  if i could i would.

wildwilly i don't think 115 is an out of the ordinary swing speed - so am surprised that you do not believe me.  

it is not my body that rotates this fast rather the clubhead.  the head is a long way away from the tee and has a lot of stored potential when it is at the top of the backsing (so to speak).  give it a try i think you will be surprised how much speed you can get by pulling your arms down and still keeping the wrists firm.  i guess in reality the wrists do break to an extent - but i try to reduce this as much as i can.  (it probably also helps that i am reasonably tall.)

anyway i was hoping for more constructive comments / thoughts or opinions from anyone that may also have tried this.

cheers

#4 themouth1

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 01:54 PM

I am with Wild Willie.  There is NO way you can swing at 115 with the driver and have zero wrist ****.  NO way.  I would bet that if you are swinging this fast, you have some wrist **** and just do not see it.  I need to see video.  115 with the driver is VERY out of the ordinary as well.  I have worked in the fitting industry for years and I fit about one person a year that swings over 110.  I think it is about one a month that is over 100.  The average for a decent golfer is the low 90s.

Edited by themouth1, 22 August 2007 - 02:43 PM.


#5 ApexGrind

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 02:15 PM

Have you ever video taped yourself with the new swing? Or had someone try to catch you at the top of your back swing with a camera? You might be suprised.

My major swing fault is over swinging a bit. Hasn't hurt me too much until I got a 983K driver with a 45" shaft. With the driver I try to take what *feels* like a 1/4 back swing (ok, 1/2) with hardly any wrist ****. I would swear that I get the club head only to the 12 o'clock position. Friends always comment "What... that wasn't much different than usual". Sure enough, on camera I'm getting it all the way to parallel. Wrists all the way cocked.

Edited by ApexGrind, 22 August 2007 - 02:19 PM.


#6 golfasaurus

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 03:06 PM

Not going to debate whether your swing speed of 115 is achieve with wrist **** or not. The average golfer's swing speed is more like in the 80s mph. So I would have to say that 115 is not out of the ordinary (my friends 150 mph swing speed probably is), but it is still not something common.
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#7 ApexGrind

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 03:20 PM

View Postgolfasaurus, on Aug 22 2007, 01:06 PM, said:

The average golfer's swing speed is more like in the 80s mph. So I would have to say that 115 is not out of the ordinary ....

Doesn't "average" roughly equate to "ordinary"?  What's your percentile cutoff for "out of the ordinary"?

Edited by ApexGrind, 22 August 2007 - 03:21 PM.


#8 Redhaze737

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 04:12 PM

View Postkirkj01, on Aug 22 2007, 08:45 AM, said:

unfortunately i am not presently able to post a video of my swing.  if i could i would.

wildwilly i don't think 115 is an out of the ordinary swing speed - so am surprised that you do not believe me.  

it is not my body that rotates this fast rather the clubhead.  the head is a long way away from the tee and has a lot of stored potential when it is at the top of the backsing (so to speak).  give it a try i think you will be surprised how much speed you can get by pulling your arms down and still keeping the wrists firm.  i guess in reality the wrists do break to an extent - but i try to reduce this as much as i can.  (it probably also helps that i am reasonably tall.)

anyway i was hoping for more constructive comments / thoughts or opinions from anyone that may also have tried this.

cheers

I think you may think you aren't using any wrist ****, but in reality you are. I would think you are probably creating lag on the downswing. It's one of those 'what you feel and what's real' kind of things. In a recent Jim Hardy DVD release he suggests taking the club to the top with no wrist **** in the right wrist so it's not unheard of. Your swing speed is on the high end so that's why you are getting some negative responses when you say you use no wrist ****. Even if the club head is at the end of the club your body turn would have to be very fast to create the speed without help of a wrist **** or lag on the downswing. If you have a friend who can video your swing it might be interesting for you. In the meantime, if what you're doing is working that's what counts right?

#9 Jim_0068

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 05:24 PM

Slicefixer has a junior that he teaches that has a backswing that is fairly short with zero wrist **** (on the backswing). During transition the student does create wrist **** and whacks the hell out of it. Probably the best ballstriker of the group of juniors he teaches when i went to go visit him for a week. However i didn't get to see his "star pupil" this one had to be second best without a doubt.

If it works for you, then don't worry about it. As my mentor brian manzella would say, "the ball only knows what the clubhead is doing." So essentially, make the club work in a way that allows YOU to hit the ball how YOU want.

Edited by Jim_0068, 22 August 2007 - 05:25 PM.


#10 larrybud

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 08:09 PM

View Postkirkj01, on Aug 22 2007, 12:54 PM, said:

My swing stops at the top with the club pointing at about 12 or 1 o'clock when looking from the front.  But the clubhead is pointing straight away from my arms (if you understand) - no wrist breakwhatsoever.  I keep both my knees flexed and concentrate to keep my posture as good as possible.  I feel that when I get my hands and club face back to the ball I am striking down in it with great power.  Maybe not any more speed but with a lot more strength - which I feel is why I am hitting the ball as well as I am and as far as I ever have...  if not further.  And again the 'shorter' backswing increases my consistency.

Sorry, I don't buy it.  Post a video to prove us all wrong.  If your club is pointing to 12 o'clock with no wrist ****, that means your left arm is pointing to 12 o'clock.  

I also don't buy the SS.  How are you measuring it?  HoganFan has a SS meter and I can fool it with an over the top swing, and I have a lot of lag..  I had a 122SS the other day.  I'm probably realistically around high 90's.


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#11 nj21

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 08:46 PM

I'm the total opposite from you.  I feel like I am more consistent when I have a full wrist ****.  If I don't I just don't hit the ball as good.

#12 mcputter

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 08:53 PM

To the naked eye, the 'no wrist break swing' is about what J.B. Holmes swing looks like. However, when analyzed further he's got tremendous lag and rotation on the downswing.
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#13 hoganfan924

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 07:52 AM

This isn't as crazy an idea as it sounds, but what feels like zero wrist **** actually will easily turn into a full 90 deg. wrist **** in transition.  I use a swing like this to hit punch shots and it's very consistent.  Feels very firm wristed like I'm trying to hold off any wrist **** but sure enough, on video = 90 deg. at the top (angle between left forearm and shaft).  This swing actually looks quite a bit like Steve Stricker's iron swing, and he aint too shabby.  If that's what you're really doing, 115 mph isn't out of the question at all.  I've also seen a couple of players over the years that can absolutely kill the ball with a very stiff wristed action.  Rare and unconventional, but possible.

#14 kirkj01

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 08:53 AM

OK Thanks for the feedback guys.  I am an Australian but am currently working on a construction job in Patagonia - a long way away from any golf courses (and am going through severe withdrawal symptoms).  I am due on a holiday soon and will make sure I take a video of my swing and try and get some accurate swing / spin / speed data to post as well.

I guess one of the reasons I tried this 'new' swing was after watching Tiger's swing and noticing how long after contact he maintains firm wrists - or at least that is how it looks to me.  He does not appear to break down his left wrist until well into his through swing.  And I was thinking this was one of his strengths and the reasons he gets as much control as he does.  I could not seem to manage to copy this using my conventional swing (although that is hardly surprising). So in order to try and get to that finish I tried to limit my wrist break altogether.

Now maybe a more accurate way to describe the swing is no wrist break at all in the backswing, and an attempt to maintain the same in the through swing.  Whether this is absolutely achieved or not I guess only the videotape will prove..  but what I can say is that it does result in me striking the ball better than ever.  

As I was saying I can only do this by going to the 10 finger grip as I have reasonable small hands (medium glove).  I am reasonably sure that my left forearm does point to 12 at the top though.  There is a small amount of flex in my left elbow - but nothing excessive.  I would be interested to hear your comments about this as well. As I don't believe the left elbow needs to be fully extended.  

Thanks again though for your comments.

cheers

I am going to do a search for Steve Stricker and JB Holmes swing for interest.

#15 ApexGrind

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 01:39 PM

I have a friend who takes a stiff wristed back swing. Doesn't even get the club to the 12 o'clock position but on the transition and down swing his wrists **** normally.

I think what you're talking about is Tiger's "reach for the target" follow through? When Tiger gets to belt high in his follow through his arms and wrists are still pretty much straight. What's interesting is that it look like his forearms are almost completely crossed over. So he REALLY turns the club head over.

Edited by ApexGrind, 23 August 2007 - 01:39 PM.


#16 Milo

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 01:28 AM

View Postthemouth1, on Aug 23 2007, 02:54 AM, said:

I am with Wild Willie.  There is NO way you can swing at 115 with the driver and have zero wrist ****.  NO way.  I would bet that if you are swinging this fast, you have some wrist **** and just do not see it.  I need to see video.  115 with the driver is VERY out of the ordinary as well.  I have worked in the fitting industry for years and I fit about one person a year that swings over 110.  I think it is about one a month that is over 100.  The average for a decent golfer is the low 90s.

I imagine that there must be some discrepancy between swing speed measuring devices because low 90s with driver for a decent golfer seems slow. But it also depends on what you mean by "decent".
I had a Vector session to get my iron specs sorted out and was measured with 6 iron averaging out at 93. I did not think that was either high or low at the time but maybe these things are sometimes not calibrated correctly.

#17 themouth1

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 02:19 AM

The average golfer I fit is a 15 handicap.  They will almost always swing in the low 80s.  As the handicaps drop, clubhead speed tends to increase but, it is still rare that I see even a single digit handicap swing higher than 95.  People all think they swing faster than they do.  I would say 95% of the golfers out there play a shaft that is too stiff for them.  

As far as you go, 93 with a six iron is well above average.  There was a study that Mizuno did a few years back that said the average tour pros swing speed was 105.  There are obviously much faster guys out there but, this was the average.  This and my personal experience is what leads me to believe that most golfers overestimate their swing speed.  I think it has a lot more to do with ego than machine calibration.  

           On a side note, launch monitors can be juiced up if so desired to make the person being fit think he is hitting it further.  I don't know why someone would find it necessary to do that but...I remember when we first go our Vector and found out you could do that during the training.  I couldn't believe a manufacturer would put an option to commit fraud on their product.

#18 Milo

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 02:38 AM

Juicing up a monitor would seem to go against the reason for having one. As you say, what a daft setting to build in.
I used one in Hong Kong at a pretty reputable place. But the whole "face" issue is so pervasive that I would not be surprised if they had hyped it up a bit just to make clients down there feel a bit special.
My distances for each club are about average for middle of the road (in terms of length) tour players like David Toms, Jim Furyk, etc. I guess my swing speeds might be a bit higher to make up for a lesser quality contact.

#19 Milo

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 03:01 AM

View Postthemouth1, on Aug 24 2007, 03:54 PM, said:

For the record, David Toms hits it pretty far.  He is not as nearly as short a hitter as the TV announcers make out.


I took his numbers from what he says he hits and they are pretty much identical to mine.

Driver 285
6 iron 180
PW 125

I must hit my putter much further than him, though, because I always get much longer puts coming back than he does.

#20 themouth1

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 03:09 AM

Quote

I must hit my putter much further than him, though, because I always get much longer puts coming back than he does.

Nice :)


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#21 themouth1

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 03:11 AM

Quote

I must hit my putter much further than him, though, because I always get much longer puts coming back than he does.

Nice :)

#22 leekgolf

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 05:42 AM

It doesn't matter what your current swing speed is or how you currently score.

There is NO SECRET to golf.

A no wristbreak swing, if that's what you are really doing is a bad idea for many reasons.

I suspect you were rolling the clubface open on the backswing before, then coming over the top on the downswing. Learn to hinge and pivot properly on the backswing, then pivot on the downswing, keeping the right shoulder moving down the plane.

I repeat, there is no secret, just few imperatives.

#23 bob in Santa Rosa

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:02 PM

Hi,
I just read your comments (below) from 5 years ago! I hope you get this.

I have evolved a no-wrist golf swing, meaning not only no wrist muscles but also no wrist cocking or rotation about the left arm. I hit the ball farther than 95% of my golfing buddies, & I am not particularly athletic or big. I might have hit it slightly farther with using wrists (e.g. 10 yards), but such a case would have been rare, and on average distance is significantly better without wrists. It is so much easier to control with no wrist motion. Fades or draws are minimal, and accuracy is easy-- all without much practice. I think the reason is that wrists can only ideally add slightly to the clubhead speed, but that is countered by having a much better body-driven swing when one doesn't have to worry about wrists, arms, or hands. To inhibit wrist cocking, I also grip the club with the shaft aiming up my lower left arm, rather than somewhat along the base of the left hand fingers.

I am stiffer with age now (62), so my back swing is fairly short. Without wind, I will fly a typical drive ~ 220 yards. My important swing thoughts are:

1) Take the club back by turning your torso, trying to avoid "cocking" your left arm relative to your chest; i.e., try to keep your upper left arm perpendicular to your chest rather than folding it across your chest at the shoulder joint.

2) During the backswing takeaway, take care NOT to rotate your left wrist or lower left arm. For me, the helpful image is to lead the backswing with the inside of the left wrist, and keeping this flat part of the wrist always perpendicular to the ARC of the clubhead. This is a major cause for better consistency and control, since now the wrist rotation is nearly zero degrees during a swing compared to nearly 180 degrees for a traditional swing.

3) Be sure to use only your hips, back and shoulders in your downswing. Do not involve your hands or arms. (A light grip will help to keep your hands out of it). Note that the downswing begins with the inside of the left wrist still moving perpendicular to the arc of the club-- NOT with the outside heel of left the hand leading the way down.

This no-wrist swing sure works for me & I have to roll my eyes when I see people advocating using their wrists.

Comments are welcomed!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

View Postkirkj01, on 22 August 2007 - 11:54 AM, said:

Hello all,

I have been enjoying reading some of the posts in this section of the forum and thought I would start my own...

A few months ago while searching for the secret swing I tried swinging without breaking my wrists at all.  I had always run into problems regarding whether I was breaking too early or too late etc etc.  Coupled with the new swing I went to heavier stiffer irons (& driver).  I also went to a 10 finger grip and increased the pressure of my grip...  making sure I maintained the angle between the club and the forearms throught.

I can honesly say that after parcticing this method for some time I have never hit the ball any better.   I am a competent golfer who has shot quite a few rounds at par or slightly less.  My driver SS is around 115.My consistency has increased dramatically.

One problem I do have is that I tend to turn over my approach shots a bit.  To try and counter this I am going to get my short irons bent flat a little more as well as put on larger grips.  I am hoping this will help this.

With my driver I have taken to teeing the ball up around 3 inches...  it takes some practice to get used to this..  but again the results have been overwhelming.  I feel the new deep face drivers complement my new driver swing.  I have also insert a 95g shaft which helps with the feel as well as tempo.

My swing stops at the top with the club pointing at about 12 or 1 o'clock when looking from the front.  But the clubhead is pointing straight away from my arms (if you understand) - no wrist breakwhatsoever.  I keep both my knees flexed and concentrate to keep my posture as good as possible.  I feel that when I get my hands and club face back to the ball I am striking down in it with great power.  Maybe not any more speed but with a lot more strength - which I feel is why I am hitting the ball as well as I am and as far as I ever have...  if not further.  And again the 'shorter' backswing increases my consistency.

So I guess what I am asking here is has anyone tried a similar swing and are you having similar results?  Any strong points or negatives?

I have read other swing thoughts...  S&T and Moe Norman style golf amongst others...  I don't believe that this method is a copy, or particularly similar, to either of these.  I have noticed Tiger's swing at contact and through the ball he does not break his wrist/angle for a considerable period of time.  I guess this is where I first thought of this idea.  (My hands perhaps ar not strong enough to do this using a normal overlap or interlocking grip.)

My short wedge game has also improved considerably.

All comments and feedback welcome.

Thanks


#24 golfsavvy

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:02 AM

View Postkirkj01, on 22 August 2007 - 11:54 AM, said:

Hello all,

I have been enjoying reading some of the posts in this section of the forum and thought I would start my own...

A few months ago while searching for the secret swing I tried swinging without breaking my wrists at all.  I had always run into problems regarding whether I was breaking too early or too late etc etc.  Coupled with the new swing I went to heavier stiffer irons (& driver).  I also went to a 10 finger grip and increased the pressure of my grip...  making sure I maintained the angle between the club and the forearms throught.

I can honesly say that after parcticing this method for some time I have never hit the ball any better.   I am a competent golfer who has shot quite a few rounds at par or slightly less.  My driver SS is around 115.My consistency has increased dramatically.

One problem I do have is that I tend to turn over my approach shots a bit.  To try and counter this I am going to get my short irons bent flat a little more as well as put on larger grips.  I am hoping this will help this.

With my driver I have taken to teeing the ball up around 3 inches...  it takes some practice to get used to this..  but again the results have been overwhelming.  I feel the new deep face drivers complement my new driver swing.  I have also insert a 95g shaft which helps with the feel as well as tempo.

My swing stops at the top with the club pointing at about 12 or 1 o'clock when looking from the front.  But the clubhead is pointing straight away from my arms (if you understand) - no wrist breakwhatsoever.  I keep both my knees flexed and concentrate to keep my posture as good as possible.  I feel that when I get my hands and club face back to the ball I am striking down in it with great power.  Maybe not any more speed but with a lot more strength - which I feel is why I am hitting the ball as well as I am and as far as I ever have...  if not further.  And again the 'shorter' backswing increases my consistency.

So I guess what I am asking here is has anyone tried a similar swing and are you having similar results?  Any strong points or negatives?

I have read other swing thoughts...  S&T and Moe Norman style golf amongst others...  I don't believe that this method is a copy, or particularly similar, to either of these.  I have noticed Tiger's swing at contact and through the ball he does not break his wrist/angle for a considerable period of time.  I guess this is where I first thought of this idea.  (My hands perhaps ar not strong enough to do this using a normal overlap or interlocking grip.)

My short wedge game has also improved considerably.

All comments and feedback welcome.

Thanks

You have nothing to prove.  If it works, keep doing it.  Wonder how Furyk describes his swing?

Heard one of O'Grady's swing theories was to set the hands fairly low at address and simply rotate with minimal wrist movement... don't know if that's true, but the effects of reducing wrist movement is to reduce variance in both trajectory and direction.  Pretty simple -- just take a 7-iron and stiffen your wrists and arms and watch it go lower and straighter.  Going heavier in your shafts would do something similar.  Maybe you are at 115, maybe you're not.  Your swing sounds similar to a kid I teach who KILLS it.

Stricker seems to do pretty well without a lot of wrists.  Regardless it sounds like you use 'height' and rotation vs. Daly-esque wrists.  

BTW, it would be interesting to see what you do -- PM me if you like, as I'm going to be in Gold Coast, Sydney, and Melbourne next month......l

#25 lookma_nobackswing

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:42 AM

View PostRedhaze737, on 22 August 2007 - 04:12 PM, said:

I think you may think you aren't using any wrist ****, but in reality you are. I would think you are probably creating lag on the downswing. It's one of those 'what you feel and what's real' kind of things. In a recent Jim Hardy DVD release he suggests taking the club to the top with no wrist **** in the right wrist so it's not unheard of. Your swing speed is on the high end so that's why you are getting some negative responses when you say you use no wrist ****. Even if the club head is at the end of the club your body turn would have to be very fast to create the speed without help of a wrist **** or lag on the downswing. If you have a friend who can video your swing it might be interesting for you. In the meantime, if what you're doing is working that's what counts right?

this is what i was thinking also.  JB holmes is a good example of this.  no conscious wrist **** in backswing, plenty of lag coming down.



#26 RighttoLeft

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 03:46 AM

There was an article in one of the Golf rags about 10 years ago about a kid who had lost his left hand/wrist.  He had a prosthetic on his forearm that clamped the club and held it solidly in position.  He could hit it 280-300 with ZERO wrist hinge.  He did have a HUGE shoulder turn though.




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