[atlanta golfer]

Two big questions came to the surface today during a match.

1. We are playing a new course. I hit into the woods. From the tee, we don't know if this is staked hazard or OB, not staked at all, is the ball lost, or if found, is it playable. So I hit a provisional, declaring it as such. The provisional ball lands safely in the fairway. Now we go looking for the ball. I think if we find red stakes, I can take a drop. If we find white stakes, I am OB and play my provisional. If the ball cannot be found, I play my provisional. But I do find the ball, however, it is unplayable. Can I play my provisional? The real questions here is, when you play a provisional, how many different situations does it apply to? Can I say "I'm hitting a provisional in case the first ball is lost, OB, or unplayable? And if in a hazard, I will take the drop?"

2. Many of the holes we are playing border a large lake. Also, the water level is lower than normal, exposing lots of sand, dirt, and rocks. There is a pretty clear line where grass rough ends, and the dirt, sand, and rocks begin. None of these boundaries are staked as a hazard. So if I hit into the lake, or hit into the exposed dirt and rocks, is this considered a hazard, or not? Or do I just need to ask the Pro at the course?

Thanks for any advice.

[DemolitionMan]

atlanta golfer, on Aug 19 2007, 12:08 PM, said:

Two big questions came to the surface today during a match.

1. We are playing a new course. I hit into the woods. From the tee, we don't know if this is staked hazard or OB, not staked at all, is the ball lost, or if found, is it playable. So I hit a provisional, declaring it as such. The provisional ball lands safely in the fairway. Now we go looking for the ball. I think if we find red stakes, I can take a drop. If we find white stakes, I am OB and play my provisional. If the ball cannot be found, I play my provisional. But I do find the ball, however, it is unplayable. Can I play my provisional? The real questions here is, when you play a provisional, how many different situations does it apply to? Can I say "I'm hitting a provisional in case the first ball is lost, OB, or unplayable? And if in a hazard, I will take the drop?"

2. Many of the holes we are playing border a large lake. Also, the water level is lower than normal, exposing lots of sand, dirt, and rocks. There is a pretty clear line where grass rough ends, and the dirt, sand, and rocks begin. None of these boundaries are staked as a hazard. So if I hit into the lake, or hit into the exposed dirt and rocks, is this considered a hazard, or not? Or do I just need to ask the Pro at the course?

Thanks for any advice.

1. A provisional ball may be declared only when you think the first ball is lost or out of bounds. If your balls goes into an area that you are not sure how it is staked or how the ball ended up, you can declare a provisional ball.

If it is red stakes, you must have reasonable evidence that your ball is in the hazard at which time you can take a drop. If the surrounding area is rough where a ball can be lodged, then unless you see the ball, you may not have reasonable evidence.

If it is white stakes, yes, go play the provisional.

If the ball cannot be found, and you have no reasonable evidence it is in a red staked hazard, yes, play the provisional.

If you find the ball and it is not in a hazard, either play it or declare it unplayable and proceed under the rules for a drop or go back to the tee. You cannot play the provisional if you find the ball.

Technically, you can just say "provisional ball" or just about any statement that contains those words, provisional means for a ball that is lost or OB, you do not need to say in case it is unplayable or in a hazard as those conditions are not allowed. You only got to play a drop if it turns out red staked because you did not know.

2. It is a hazard, an unmarked one, proceed under rule 26-1, and probably 26-1c if the lake is large and prevents drops behind the hazard.

[smithjohnjr]

I didnt think you could hit a provisional for hazard. Only for OB or really reasonable evidence for lost.

[CooGAR]

You can't hit a provisional for a hazard......BUT, it you did not know there was a hazard where you hit your first ball, then you can drop at the hazard as if the provisional was never hit.

[paulyb]

I emailed the USGA about using your provisional if you find the original ball unplayable. No can do. Must re-tee.

[hbear]

Yup if you find your 1st ball, you MUST play it. (provided it's in bounds)

Happens a lot at tournaments when guys hit their first into the junk...play a provisional into the fairway, and don't look too hard for their first if they are better off not finding it.

Which is why most savy playing partners will help look along the edge but not so far in that if the ball is found it's dead.

[akanacl]

atlanta golfer, on Aug 19 2007, 12:08 PM, said:

Two big questions came to the surface today during a match.

Now we go looking for the ball. I think if we find red stakes, I can take a drop. If we find white stakes, I am OB and play my provisional. If the ball cannot be found, I play my provisional.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

If the area is red staked, and you cannot find your ball in the hazard, you can not play your provisional. You have 4 options: 2 club lengths from point of entry, back to the tee, other side of the hazard no closer to the hole, a line from the point of entry back as far as you want keeping the point of entry and the pin in line.

On kinda of a contrarian note, I was told by our head pro the USGA recently changed a rule regarding provisionals. He said a provisional can now be played if a ball has been hit into a hazard, to aid the pace of play.

[Newman]

akanacl, on Aug 20 2007, 09:11 PM, said:

atlanta golfer, on Aug 19 2007, 12:08 PM, said:

Two big questions came to the surface today during a match.

Now we go looking for the ball. I think if we find red stakes, I can take a drop. If we find white stakes, I am OB and play my provisional. If the ball cannot be found, I play my provisional.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

If the area is red staked, and you cannot find your ball in the hazard, you can not play your provisional. You have 4 options: 2 club lengths from point of entry, back to the tee, other side of the hazard no closer to the hole, a line from the point of entry back as far as you want keeping the point of entry and the pin in line.

On kinda of a contrarian note, I was told by our head pro the USGA recently changed a rule regarding provisionals. He said a provisional can now be played if a ball has been hit into a hazard, to aid the pace of play.

That makes no sense because there's already a definitive procedure in place regarding a ball lost inside a hazard. There's no advantage to be gained with a change like that. Why would anyone take the "stroke and distance" penalty if they didn't have to? I'm gonna drop at every opportunity and save myself a crap load of yardage.

On the other hand, I help run, and administer the rules for a local semi-competitive tour where I live. We have instituted a "tour only" local rule modification to Rule 28, to help speed up play if needed. It reads as follows...

Provisional ball played, Original ball found but unplayable:

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

Local Rule alternative to option "a": In consideration of Pace of Play, if a player declares his ball unplayable, and has already played a provisional ball, and wishes to proceed under option “a” of the rule, he may declare his provisional to be in play and proceed from that point, applying the appropriate stroke and distance penalty as prescribed by the rule, instead of returning to the spot of the previous stroke.

We know that Rule 27-2c states that a provisional ball must be abandoned if the original ball is found within the time allowed, but this is solely a "pace of play" issue for us and nothing more, so that the player doesn't have to go all the way back to where the previous stroke was played if b and c are not reasonable options in the player's situation. And BTW, because we employ this "local rule", any scores posted in our competitive rounds are for Tour purposes only, and are not used in calculating official handicaps.

[hbear]

Part of the problem is that if you are not 100% sure your ball crossed the hazard line....how do you know it crossed the hazard line? and where did it cross the hazard line?
If you can't be sure...it's a lost ball. (Stroke and distance)

E.g. blind approach over a hill, to a green with water in front. You hit your ball, not perfect but ok...you think it's just on the green....go up to green can't find your ball. Possibly it's in the hazard...HOWEVER since nobody saw it enter the hazard, unless you can identify your ball in the hazard, you go back to where you hit your approach and rehit (stroke and distance) as you now have a lost ball.

" player may not deem his ball lost in a water hazard simply because he thinks the ball may be in the hazard. The evidence must be preponderantly in favor of its being in the hazard. Otherwise, the ball must be considered lost outside the hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1. "

[akanacl]

Newman, on Aug 20 2007, 07:44 PM, said:

akanacl, on Aug 20 2007, 09:11 PM, said:

atlanta golfer, on Aug 19 2007, 12:08 PM, said:

Two big questions came to the surface today during a match.

Now we go looking for the ball. I think if we find red stakes, I can take a drop. If we find white stakes, I am OB and play my provisional. If the ball cannot be found, I play my provisional.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

If the area is red staked, and you cannot find your ball in the hazard, you can not play your provisional. You have 4 options: 2 club lengths from point of entry, back to the tee, other side of the hazard no closer to the hole, a line from the point of entry back as far as you want keeping the point of entry and the pin in line.

On kinda of a contrarian note, I was told by our head pro the USGA recently changed a rule regarding provisionals. He said a provisional can now be played if a ball has been hit into a hazard, to aid the pace of play.

That makes no sense because there's already a definitive procedure in place regarding a ball lost inside a hazard. There's no advantage to be gained with a change like that. Why would anyone take the "stroke and distance" penalty if they didn't have to? I'm gonna drop at every opportunity and save myself a crap load of yardage.

On the other hand, I help run, and administer the rules for a local semi-competitive tour where I live. We have instituted a "tour only" local rule modification to Rule 28, to help speed up play if needed. It reads as follows...

Provisional ball played, Original ball found but unplayable:

<div align="center">If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

Local Rule alternative to option "a": In consideration of Pace of Play, if a player declares his ball unplayable, and has already played a provisional ball, and wishes to proceed under option “a” of the rule, he may declare his provisional to be in play and proceed from that point, applying the appropriate stroke and distance penalty as prescribed by the rule, instead of returning to the spot of the previous stroke.

We know that Rule 27-2c states that a provisional ball must be abandoned if the original ball is found within the time allowed, but this is solely a "pace of play" issue for us and nothing more, so that the player doesn't have to go all the way back to where the previous stroke was played if b and c are not reasonable options in the player's situation. And BTW, because we employ this "local rule", any scores posted in our competitive rounds are for Tour purposes only, and are not used in calculating official handicaps.

</div>

Yes Newman you are right. I think I cleared this up today with our head pro. At my club we have several tee shots which you must carry 200+ over red staked hazards, which are deep, have severe downslopes to the stakes, and its almost impossible to find a ball. They use a local rule to allow provisionals to aid the pace of play for tournaments. Does that sound right? I'm a rules rookie sorry about the uninformed post. I'll just read from now on!!

[Joe Schmoe]

hbear, on Aug 21 2007, 01:15 AM, said:

Part of the problem is that if you are not 100% sure your ball crossed the hazard line....how do you know it crossed the hazard line? and where did it cross the hazard line?
If you can't be sure...it's a lost ball. (Stroke and distance)

E.g. blind approach over a hill, to a green with water in front. You hit your ball, not perfect but ok...you think it's just on the green....go up to green can't find your ball. Possibly it's in the hazard...HOWEVER since nobody saw it enter the hazard, unless you can identify your ball in the hazard, you go back to where you hit your approach and rehit (stroke and distance) as you now have a lost ball.

" player may not deem his ball lost in a water hazard simply because he thinks the ball may be in the hazard. The evidence must be preponderantly in favor of its being in the hazard. Otherwise, the ball must be considered lost outside the hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1. "

why not post the full decision?

The term “reasonable evidence” in Rule 26-1 is purposely and necessarily broad so as to permit sensible judgments to be reached on the basis of all the relevant circumstances of particular cases. As applied in this context, a player may not deem his ball lost in a water hazard simply because he thinks the ball may be in the hazard. The evidence must be preponderantly in favor of its being in the hazard. Otherwise, the ball must be considered lost outside the hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1. Physical conditions in the area have a great deal to do with it. For example, if a water hazard is surrounded by a fairway on which a ball could hardly be lost, the existence of reasonable evidence that the ball is in the hazard would be more likely than if there was deep rough in the area. Observing a ball splash in a water hazard would not necessarily provide reasonable evidence as splashing balls sometimes skip out of hazards. It would depend on all the circumstances.

[dauntless2]

I'm still confused regarding this rule. So if I hit a ball into a lateral hazard marked with red line and can't find the ball, I can dropped a ball within 2 club length from where the ball entered the hazard. Do I give myself one stroke penalty or 2 strokes penalty (one for hazard and one for lost ball)?

[atlanta golfer]

Your alternatives are one or the other.

If you reasonably believe the ball is in the hazard, then take a drop at the appropriate place and take one stroke penalty.

If you do not think the ball is in the hazard and it is lost perhaps in tall grass or brush, then you go back to where you hit the shot and hit another one, and take a penalty stroke. (loss of stroke and distance).

[avrag]

Newman, on Aug 21 2007, 04:44 AM, said:

akanacl, on Aug 20 2007, 09:11 PM, said:

On kinda of a contrarian note, I was told by our head pro the USGA recently changed a rule regarding provisionals. He said a provisional can now be played if a ball has been hit into a hazard, to aid the pace of play.

That makes no sense because there's already a definitive procedure in place regarding a ball lost inside a hazard. There's no advantage to be gained with a change like that. Why would anyone take the "stroke and distance" penalty if they didn't have to? I'm gonna drop at every opportunity and save myself a crap load of yardage.

Of course it makes sense. The "No provisional ball, when ball might be lost in hazard"-rule is one of the stupidest rules in golf and should be changed right away.

No 1: when I play in a club tournament, i am usually the only one in my group who even knows that the rule exists, which often leads to endless unpleasant discussions, but since i am a judge in my "real life", i can't help but try to get things right.
No 2: There are a lot of holes, on which allowing the provisional ball when the original ball might be lost in a hazard, can speed up play considerably, because dropping at the edge of the hazard is not an option:

situation 1 (on my former home course): par three, 165 yards. a water hazard (non-lateral, yellow stakes) between tee boxes and green. the edge of the far side of the water hazard is covered with reeds, about 6 to 8 ft high, that are within the boundaries of the hazard. If you hit the green, you can only tell by the sound of the ball at impact. if you hit the reeds, you cannot tell, whether the ball has gone through and lies on the green, or whether it got caught up. If it got caught up, it CAN ONLY BE LOST INSIDE THE HAZARD. no discussion about that. but to find out, you must walk all the way around the pond to the green. if you get there and find your ball on the green, ok. if you don't find it, it can only be within the hazard, so you must return to the tee (the ladies tee, if you're clever), because it's the only legal place to drop and play another one. Now, THAT does not make sense, in my view.
situation 2 is similar on a par5 on my current home course. three small ponds in row all along the left hand side of the fairway from 100yds out to 300 yds out. all three staked red, all three have small trees and bushes growing around them. the bushes are within the boundaries of the hazards. if you pull your tee shot, it disappeares behind the trees. 80% chance, the ball is lost in one of the hazards, but it might also lie between two of the ponds, where it cannot be lost, because the grass is short there. So again, you have to go and look, as no provisional ball is allowed, because if the ball is lost, it can only be lost in the hazard. the edges of these hazards are so steep and the ground is so uneven there, that you would not want to drop within two club lenghts. so everybody who has hist wits together, goes back to the tee and plays another one, which could be achieved without the ten minutes loss of time.

[lake]

avrag, on Nov 12 2007, 06:17 PM, said:

Newman, on Aug 21 2007, 04:44 AM, said:

akanacl, on Aug 20 2007, 09:11 PM, said:

On kinda of a contrarian note, I was told by our head pro the USGA recently changed a rule regarding provisionals. He said a provisional can now be played if a ball has been hit into a hazard, to aid the pace of play.

That makes no sense because there's already a definitive procedure in place regarding a ball lost inside a hazard. There's no advantage to be gained with a change like that. Why would anyone take the "stroke and distance" penalty if they didn't have to? I'm gonna drop at every opportunity and save myself a crap load of yardage.

Of course it makes sense. The "No provisional ball, when ball might be lost in hazard"-rule is one of the stupidest rules in golf and should be changed right away.

No 1: when I play in a club tournament, i am usually the only one in my group who even knows that the rule exists, which often leads to endless unpleasant discussions, but since i am a judge in my "real life", i can't help but try to get things right.
No 2: There are a lot of holes, on which allowing the provisional ball when the original ball might be lost in a hazard, can speed up play considerably, because dropping at the edge of the hazard is not an option:

situation 1 (on my former home course): par three, 165 yards. a water hazard (non-lateral, yellow stakes) between tee boxes and green. the edge of the far side of the water hazard is covered with reeds, about 6 to 8 ft high, that are within the boundaries of the hazard. If you hit the green, you can only tell by the sound of the ball at impact. if you hit the reeds, you cannot tell, whether the ball has gone through and lies on the green, or whether it got caught up. If it got caught up, it CAN ONLY BE LOST INSIDE THE HAZARD. no discussion about that. but to find out, you must walk all the way around the pond to the green. if you get there and find your ball on the green, ok. if you don't find it, it can only be within the hazard, so you must return to the tee (the ladies tee, if you're clever), because it's the only legal place to drop and play another one. Now, THAT does not make sense, in my view.
situation 2 is similar on a par5 on my current home course. three small ponds in row all along the left hand side of the fairway from 100yds out to 300 yds out. all three staked red, all three have small trees and bushes growing around them. the bushes are within the boundaries of the hazards. if you pull your tee shot, it disappeares behind the trees. 80% chance, the ball is lost in one of the hazards, but it might also lie between two of the ponds, where it cannot be lost, because the grass is short there. So again, you have to go and look, as no provisional ball is allowed, because if the ball is lost, it can only be lost in the hazard. the edges of these hazards are so steep and the ground is so uneven there, that you would not want to drop within two club lenghts. so everybody who has hist wits together, goes back to the tee and plays another one, which could be achieved without the ten minutes loss of time.

A "drop area" closer to the green would be a good idea for the par 3 situation.

Joe Schmoe answered situaiton #2 under "reasonable evidence." It sounds like there should be a "drop area" there too.

[avrag]

lakewoodgcc, on Nov 13 2007, 03:33 AM, said:

A "drop area" closer to the green would be a good idea for the par 3 situation.

Joe Schmoe answered situaiton #2 under "reasonable evidence." It sounds like there should be a "drop area" there too.

well, "reasonable evidence": the problem in both stiuation is: you don't know, if the ball is lost (which would allow you to play a provisional, if it weren't for the hazard). but if it is lost, it can only be lost in the hazard, no where else.
drop areas could be a solution, but i believe club managers (and many players too) around here think that drop areas are a thing
a) only for pros
b) a little tweaking of the rules to begin with.

[lake]

What if the ball hit one of the trees in the hazard and it kicked the ball in play away from your search. My problem with not allowing a provisional in this case is the statement "you don't know." If you had evidence that the ball was in the hazard than there's no worries and you got your 5 red options. If the hazard is marked red and you can't use the 2-club length option due to course conditions than I don't see the harm in a "drop area-IMOP." The par 3 "drop area" would primarily be in place for pace-of-play IMOP. However, that being said I don't know the R&A's stance on that issue just what we Yanks do or in my case Southerner's !!

[rankoutsider]

this is getting complicated, but it should be remembered that provisional balls are a new thing meant to speed up play, and this rule was always a bad rule (it's a "made for TV" golf rule), so it isn't surprising that it gives rise to such problems. so, it is a bad rule, which i think will give rise to another bad rule which players are trying on just now: "declaring" a ball lost and a provisional in play. phil mickelson tried it in a tournament a couple of years ago in a playoff, where it would have been advantageous to play his provisional rather than retee, but his ball was found and he had to retee. you can never really declare a ball lost, but if tiger woods tells the gallery to stop looking for his ball, they would stop. if sergio did, they would find the ball (or some galleries would, anyway).

i think you guys are being too scrupulous with the phrasing about "reasonable evidence." if you hit a ball in a fairly dubious spot on the course, where you know from prior experience, or others know from prior experience, that there is a chance it is lost, even just a 50/50 chance, then you should hit a provisional. otherwise, the rule has no use whatsoever.

[lake]

rankoutsider, on Nov 13 2007, 04:55 PM, said:

this is getting complicated, but it should be remembered that provisional balls are a new thing meant to speed up play, and this rule was always a bad rule (it's a "made for TV" golf rule), so it isn't surprising that it gives rise to such problems. so, it is a bad rule, which i think will give rise to another bad rule which players are trying on just now: "declaring" a ball lost and a provisional in play. phil mickelson tried it in a tournament a couple of years ago in a playoff, where it would have been advantageous to play his provisional rather than retee, but his ball was found and he had to retee. you can never really declare a ball lost, but if tiger woods tells the gallery to stop looking for his ball, they would stop. if sergio did, they would find the ball (or some galleries would, anyway).

i think you guys are being too scrupulous with the phrasing about "reasonable evidence." if you hit a ball in a fairly dubious spot on the course, where you know from prior experience, or others know from prior experience, that there is a chance it is lost, even just a 50/50 chance, then you should hit a provisional. otherwise, the rule has no use whatsoever.

The provisional ball rule was NEW in 1921. Even newer, the 14 club max rule came out in 1939. But just yesterday in 1952 they abolished the "stymie." LOL just bustin ur chops About declaring your ball lost...just re-tee and don't say a word...bingo your hitting 3!! "Reasonable evidence" is tricky and purposely broad 26-1/1 in order to take in all relevant circumstances of particular cases.

[rankoutsider]

my understanding was the newest version of the rule that supposedly "speeds up play" was installed so TV cameras wouldn't have to watch you walk back to the tee, and the tournament could keep on a nice tight schedule. thanks for pointing out my oversight (bust away at my chops).

here is where it is certainly advantageous to declare a ball lost.

you hit in a wood, your opponent hits in the wood. you stripe your provisional down the middle, as does your opponent. he finds his ball and it is in the worst spot on the course. he has no practical remedy but reteeing. now he has to pick up a ball that's in the middle of the fairway and try to do it again. if you are smart, and allowed to, you shouldn't even look for your ball, knowing it is probably in a very bad spot, but not sure it is lost. that is what mickelson did, but they found his ball anyway, much to his chagrin.