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How adjustable drivers actually work. Everyone should be required to watch this to be allowed to post on this site. Thanks Tom Wishon


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#61 TomWishon

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 05:57 PM

View Postcxx, on 22 September 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

Even though I think the iron equivalent perspective is a good one, I do think there is a little more to it than just the shaft/face angle, especially when we are talking about drivers that were not designed for the adjustable hosel.  Some of the new drivers are shaped to look good at address in a variety of adjustments.  I guess they are rounder.  I've had some non-adjustable drivers that had a very specific orientation and seemed to work well only in that orientation.

The thing about the adjustable hosel drivers for hookers and slicers is that they don't have to get a draw driver or whatever the open faced equivalent would be.  They can play the same clubs as everyone else. There was a bit of stigma associated with offset or draw drivers even though they worked great for some players. Some people who needed them wouldn't get them.

Face angle is and will always be dictated by the angle of the shaft to the plane of the sole when the head is rested flat on its sole.  That's all there is to it.  Even the old wooden wood makers knew this.  That's why wooden wood raw heads were always made with a big fat neck to allow the wood maker to bore the hole for the shaft at different angles to the sole to create different lies and different face angles.  Loft was always, always defined with the head resting flat on its sole.  

What can get in the way of this with some of today's drivers is the fact that unlike old wood designs in which the sole was dead flat from face to back, some of today's drivers are designed with some amount of face to back radius.  But all drivers of today have a sole rest spot position that is not difficult to find for consistent, repeatable loft, lie and face angle measurement for someone with a ton of head design experience.  

You are right in saying that there are some people who get fit for a more closed face angle to reduce their slice who get cajoled or made fun of by other golfers for using such a head spec.  That's really too bad when that happens and it makes me want to take a driver to that person's forehead who has decided to make fun of the slicer for using a hook face wood.  Funny though you don;t tend to hear of many cases when someone gives a hard time to a player using a more open face to reduce a hook.  Probably because too many golfers who play pretty well tend to look down condescendingly on the slicer more than they do the hooker.

In addition, you do have some golfers who have never seen nor used a hook face woodhead so when they get fit for one, they sometimes want to push the hands more forward in the address position in an effort to get rid of the hook face and make the face look more square like what they may have been used to only seeing.  This is why it is very common for us to coach clubmakers to watch for this with their golfers who slice the ball to always coach them into just leaving the head to sit on its sole so that the closed face can do its job.  Normally it only takes 2-3 shots for the slicer to learn this once they start to see the shot take off with less slice than before.

One other thing on this that you may be alluding to without knowing it.   So many drivers today are very upright in their lie angle.  Add to that the fact that all these std driver lengths today run between 45-46".  With so many golfers, they then sole the head deep on its heel with the toe sticking way up.  If you do that, you don;t get the head to sit on the major flat portion of its sole, so you can have a situation where a head could be made with a closed or open face angle and if the golfer lets it sit well into the heel side of the sole, that face angle does not show up as it was designed.  That right there is a really good reason for golfers to think about being fit for lie on the driver, if the driver allows that.


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#62 Grizpharm

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 08:59 PM

Hmmmmm. Interesting

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#63 rybo

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 03:46 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 22 September 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

View Postcxx, on 22 September 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

Even though I think the iron equivalent perspective is a good one, I do think there is a little more to it than just the shaft/face angle, especially when we are talking about drivers that were not designed for the adjustable hosel.  Some of the new drivers are shaped to look good at address in a variety of adjustments.  I guess they are rounder.  I've had some non-adjustable drivers that had a very specific orientation and seemed to work well only in that orientation.

The thing about the adjustable hosel drivers for hookers and slicers is that they don't have to get a draw driver or whatever the open faced equivalent would be.  They can play the same clubs as everyone else. There was a bit of stigma associated with offset or draw drivers even though they worked great for some players. Some people who needed them wouldn't get them.

Face angle is and will always be dictated by the angle of the shaft to the plane of the sole when the head is rested flat on its sole.  That's all there is to it.  Even the old wooden wood makers knew this.  That's why wooden wood raw heads were always made with a big fat neck to allow the wood maker to bore the hole for the shaft at different angles to the sole to create different lies and different face angles.  Loft was always, always defined with the head resting flat on its sole.  

What can get in the way of this with some of today's drivers is the fact that unlike old wood designs in which the sole was dead flat from face to back, some of today's drivers are designed with some amount of face to back radius.  But all drivers of today have a sole rest spot position that is not difficult to find for consistent, repeatable loft, lie and face angle measurement for someone with a ton of head design experience.

Since loft is not to be effected by different hosel settings on an adjustable driver, then why in your report does the R1 have loft variations for the same ASP setting (sole setting)?

Per the report the 1st open position on the ASP produced the following lofts:

12*
11.5*
11.75*
11.5*
11.5*
12*
12*
12*
11.5*
12*
11.75*
11.5*

Surely this can not happen since the soled point never moved.  A 1/2* of loft variation would be impossible. The loft should be exactly the same for every hosel setting.

After looking at the report again, each of the 7 individual ASP settings (sole setting) have loft variations for their given setting.

Edited by rybo, 24 September 2014 - 07:02 AM.


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#64 TomWishon

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 03:56 PM

View Postrybo, on 23 September 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:



Since loft is not to be effected by different hosel settings on an adjustable driver, then why in your report does the R1 have loft variations for the same ASP setting (sole setting)?


Because unlike most every other adjustable hosel driver, the R1 has that protruding sole dial.  As you rotate that dial, it protrudes different amounts from the sole which TILTS THE HEAD into different positions, which changes the loft on its own from how it makes the head tilt and turn the face in the specs gauge.  None of the other adj hosel drivers that I have seen have this additional feature that can change how the head sits on its sole.  So with the other adj hosel drivers, to get the loft change you have to always turn and hold the face square.  

That part is also true for the R1 from the standpoint of the hosel sleeve, but then when they put the protruding dial on the sole, that changes the tilt of the head when it is soled which changes both face angle and loft together, so now you have an additional thing that gets involved with the hosel sleeve to make the specs even more confusing in terms of what you actually get when you sole the R1 head.

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#65 tmfool

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 04:32 PM

all due respect to Tom - getting hung up on loft, face angle, marketing hype - is irrelevant to RESULTS

where does the ball go - and is it optimal and predictable (for me)

ever since mwt & fct became available - I open the face and put weight on the toe - in an effort to take left side of golf course out-of-play

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they all work(ed). that's all that matters

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#66 rybo

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 04:32 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 23 September 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

View Postrybo, on 23 September 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

Since loft is not to be effected by different hosel settings on an adjustable driver, then why in your report does the R1 have loft variations for the same ASP setting (sole setting)?


Because unlike most every other adjustable hosel driver, the R1 has that protruding sole dial.  As you rotate that dial, it protrudes different amounts from the sole which TILTS THE HEAD into different positions, which changes the loft on its own from how it makes the head tilt and turn the face in the specs gauge.  None of the other adj hosel drivers that I have seen have this additional feature that can change how the head sits on its sole.  So with the other adj hosel drivers, to get the loft change you have to always turn and hold the face square.  

That part is also true for the R1 from the standpoint of the hosel sleeve, but then when they put the protruding dial on the sole, that changes the tilt of the head when it is soled which changes both face angle and loft together, so now you have an additional thing that gets involved with the hosel sleeve to make the specs even more confusing in terms of what you actually get when you sole the R1 head.

I would agree with that except he measurements in the report state the loft variation is occurring on a single ASP(dial) setting.  There should be no variation in the loft for any of the hosel settings.  The dial did not move in the 1st open setting, yet there is a 1/2* of variation on loft measurements.  There are 5-12*, 5-11.5* and 2-11.75* measurements for a sole plane that did not change.

Edited by rybo, 24 September 2014 - 07:02 AM.


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#67 TomWishon

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 04:46 PM

View Posttmfool, on 23 September 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

all due respect to Tom - getting hung up on loft, face angle, marketing hype - is irrelevant to RESULTS


Beg to differ with you on that - except for the marketing hype.  That's a totally irrelevant factor.  And instead of using the term "hung up on", let's just say it is beneficial to know PRECISELY what ALL your specs are once you do find the clubs that perform the best for you and your swing.  That is the whole basis for fitting.  Other wise you have no way of knowing exactly what works best for you and what doesn't.  Why else do some here on WRX want their clubs "blueprinted" once they find the sticks they like the best?  

The clubfitter gives a golfer a test club to hit.  The clubfitter needs to know all the specs accurately so when he sees ball flight results that are good he knows the specs that are causing the shot results and knows to keep them as is.  And if he sees ball flight results that are not so good, he then has a basis upon which to choose what specs need to be changed and how much to get the ball flight results from less than good to good.  Then when the whole process is done, the specs should be known precisely so the golfer can have a far easier time knowing what works best when he gets attracted to a different club(s).

No question this can all be done in a pure trial and experimentation basis.  But that can take a lot more time, and cost a lot more money as well, to trial and error one's way into finding the best club for the golfer and his swing characteristics and feel and ball flight preferences.

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#68 TomWishon

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 04:49 PM

View Postrybo, on 23 September 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:


I would agree with that except he measurements in the report state the loft variation is occurring on a single ASP(dial) setting.  There should be no variation in the loft for any of the hosel settings.  The dial did not move in the 1st open setting, yet there is a 1/2* of variation on loft measurements.  There are 5-12*, 4-11.5* and 1-11.75* measurements for a sole plane that did not change.  

As I said, find the time to stop in here and I will be glad to prove everything I am telling you is dead on right because words in sentences are so tough to explain this clearly.  Very happy to do that for you since you have been working so hard for so long to shoot holes in what I am trying to teach here.   If I had a spare thousand I would even pay your trip here.

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#69 rybo

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 06:14 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 23 September 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

View Postrybo, on 23 September 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

I would agree with that except he measurements in the report state the loft variation is occurring on a single ASP(dial) setting.  There should be no variation in the loft for any of the hosel settings.  The dial did not move in the 1st open setting, yet there is a 1/2* of variation on loft measurements.  There are 5-12*, 4-11.5* and 1-11.75* measurements for a sole plane that did not change.  

As I said, find the time to stop in here and I will be glad to prove everything I am telling you is dead on right because words in sentences are so tough to explain this clearly.  Very happy to do that for you since you have been working so hard for so long to shoot holes in what I am trying to teach here.   If I had a spare thousand I would even pay your trip here.

Tom,

I agree with most everything you put on here and fully understand the information. You are also correct that I took a huge exception to the report put out, specifically the misinformation on the R1.  Unfortunately the report led masses of people to believe the R1 to be so far out of spec and incapable of doing what the design intended, when nothing could be further from the truth.

I, just like you, want clear and accurate information disseminated so people can improve their golf knowledge and make informed decisions on equipment.

How can a soled head with a static sole plane produce variations in loft?  It can't.  It didn't do it with wooden clubs, it doesn't do it with modern heads and it won't do it when measured in a green machine.  Yet the report states this phenomenon not only occurred but occurred for two different drivers.  Now when I asked a question with information directly taken from the report, the first response states how the ASP going up and down changes loft yet this has nothing to do with the question asked, and the follow up response only states I am trying to 'shoot holes' in your teachings.

You make great products and your promotion of true custom fitting is untouchable, however this constant bashing of OEM's is simply unnecessary.  Focus on what makes you great!

I do not have any affiliation with any OEM's and no longer play professionally so this is purely for educational purposes.

Edited by rybo, 23 September 2014 - 06:15 PM.


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#70 tmfool

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 06:19 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 23 September 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

View Posttmfool, on 23 September 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

all due respect to Tom - getting hung up on loft, face angle, marketing hype - is irrelevant to RESULTS


Beg to differ with you on that - except for the marketing hype.  That's a totally irrelevant factor.  And instead of using the term "hung up on", let's just say it is beneficial to know PRECISELY what ALL your specs are once you do find the clubs that perform the best for you and your swing.  That is the whole basis for fitting.  Other wise you have no way of knowing exactly what works best for you and what doesn't.  Why else do some here on WRX want their clubs "blueprinted" once they find the sticks they like the best?  

The clubfitter gives a golfer a test club to hit.  The clubfitter needs to know all the specs accurately so when he sees ball flight results that are good he knows the specs that are causing the shot results and knows to keep them as is.  And if he sees ball flight results that are not so good, he then has a basis upon which to choose what specs need to be changed and how much to get the ball flight results from less than good to good.  Then when the whole process is done, the specs should be known precisely so the golfer can have a far easier time knowing what works best when he gets attracted to a different club(s).

No question this can all be done in a pure trial and experimentation basis.  But that can take a lot more time, and cost a lot more money as well, to trial and error one's way into finding the best club for the golfer and his swing characteristics and feel and ball flight preferences.

your answer disregards my full post - and redirects to your agenda (again)

so you are aware - I have been professionally fit (multiple times)

the best fitters don't talk about loft, or face angle - focus more on shaft(s) and characteristics as they apply to you

the best fitters prefer to hand golfer a club and ask them to hit it - without looking at settings - so as to remove pre-conceived mental bias

once something produces optimal results - then you write down the specs

my point is simply this: once I am fit - I don't care what is says on the bottom of the club

focusing on whether loft/face angle are measured accurately is irrelevant to RESULTS (for me)

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#71 Justin_Ellis

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 11:02 PM

I loved the video and this confirmed what I already knew. Its also why I liked the first gen FCT sleeves on TM clubs.
Where I feel like a sweeping conclusion was made was stating that you are removing face angle as a fitting tool in the modern driver. If we are talking manufactures like cobra that release one driver and print loft on the sleeve I whole heartedly agree. This is the one Major flaw with their line and has me looking to other drivers as I prefer an open face angle that cannot be achieved in higher lofts, only the 7.5 config of the BCP.
Now, TM in the SLDR has at least four neutral loft configurations. While the sleeve doesn't really tell us what we need we can still fit face angle and loft. Failing to mention this to the consumer makes this more sales pitch than informative in my opinion.
What should have been said is if you need a driver that can make adjustment of face angle you must select one that has different numbers on the bottom of the club, not one that says 8.5, 9.5, 10.5 etc on the shaft adapter and gives you no information as to the neutral soled loft.
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#72 rybo

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 11:20 AM

Since I believe this is all coming down to how the club is being set up, score lines parallel vs natural resting point, the article below from another individual who has been in the industry for what seems like forever does a fantastic job of explaining why to set up the head for 0* face angle and then to measure face angle from there.

http://www.ralphmalt...rum/article/357

Edited by rybo, 24 September 2014 - 11:38 AM.


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#73 TomWishon

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 12:29 PM

View Postrybo, on 23 September 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:


You make great products and your promotion of true custom fitting is untouchable, however this constant bashing of OEM's is simply unnecessary.  Focus on what makes you great!


I can understand that because so often when someone says something in opposition to the claims of a big company, that can be construed by some as a form of bashing.  But I do believe it to be educating golfers about the facts, simply so the golfers know more and can then hopefully make better decisions about what they need to do to get equipment that allows them to play to the best of their ability.  

In the case of the adjustable hosel drivers, please let me share exactly what my thoughts were in digging into this area of club development so you can understand the motivation is to educate people about these clubs which do represent a departure from the norms of spec measurement on driver heads.

1.    When the modern adj hosel drivers came out with their claim that they changed loft, I was perplexed.  I knew these modern hosel devices did the same thing as the original adjustable hosel sleeve metal wood design that I created back in 1995.  They change the angle of the shaft into the head.  That’s all they do.  That’s all any of these devices can do.  And from my depth of experience I knew that changing the angle of the shaft into the head only changed the lie and the face angle.

2.    Simply driven by the desire to learn if there was something different going on, I obtained 4 of the adjustable hosel driver models to perform spec measurements for loft, lie and face angle for each different hosel (or sole disk) position.  Because the method of loft, lie and face angle measurement done with the green machine was THE existing standard among every golf company and every clubhead production factory, this is the method of measurement I used.

3.    Upon seeing that the specs as measured by the method of spec measurement used forever by every company were not what was stated, I soon determined that the way these adj hosel drivers could change the loft was by always holding/positioning the head in a 0* square face angle position after every hosel adjustment.  And yes, I did have the thought, “why would they do that?  Why would they depart from the method of spec measurement everyone in head design has used forever?”

4.    But then it hit me that this change could really be an area of confusion for clubmakers and golfers.  

a.    My first thought was “OK, if they want to change the way they define loft, then why don’t the companies tell golfers they have to hold the face square with each different hosel device position to get the loft change?”  After all,  the industry’s accepted method of spec measurement was originated based on soling the driver/wood head because that’s how the majority of golfers address the ball with the driver and woods.    


b.   Then it hit me that if you do hold the face square with each hosel position change to get the stated loft, that completely eliminates face angle as being a fitting spec for golfers.   For the straight hitters, that’s fine.  But since so many golfers slice or hook the ball to some degree, I believe that is not good for the majority of golfers who can benefit from a different face angle to reduce their slice or hook tendency when they play.   In my many years in this industry, when a clubmaker gets a slicer or hooker into a more closed or open face angle, the accuracy improvement results speak loud and clear.


c.    And finally, I realized that if you have a lot of golfers who sole the driver before they hit the ball, and if you have a lot of golfers who slice the ball, and if there are more golfers who are becoming interested in custom fitting, this whole matter of the adjustable hosel driver with its departure from the norm for spec measurement has just made the process of getting ALL the right specs to play their best just got a whole lot more confusing than it was before.  


d.   So I simply decided that it was important to educate the clubmakers and golfers about this to do what I can to help clear up this confusion.


That’s what led me to do the work to educate clubmakers and golfers about the modern adj hosel drivers as well as anything I write or talk about with regard to golf clubs.  Many times in my communication about the adj hosel drivers, I have said that this change in the way these companies now choose to define loft and ignore face angle is fine for the golfers who only need a square face angle and know that they have to hold or position the face square to the ball.  That’s not bashing.  That’s helping those golfers who do hit it straight know that these clubs are fine for their needs.  

But I still can’t figure out why the companies did not make a big effort to educate golfers that “when you use this driver, to get the loft change you have to hold the face square when you address the ball.”

Heck, to be honest with you, the big companies should thank me for doing this job of educating the golfers about these drivers.   My explanations probably will help more golfers use these clubs more effectively!

It is very important to know the precise loft, lie and face angle on a driver (or any club) within the process of conducting an orderly, organized, more definitive approach to Clubfitting for golfers.  And I also know the huge importance of having a specific face angle achieved independently from the loft for those many golfers who do slice or hook the ball and need help with that to enjoy the game more.  These points related to fitting are not opinions open to dissent.  They are indisputable facts.

That’s all it is.  I’m just trying to help golfers with the best information possible because there has been, is and will probably always be a ton of confusion out there about golf clubs and their performance.   That’s all I have ever tried to do in my work simply because I am the first person to want to know everything possible about anything related to golf clubs.

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#74 Cwebb

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 12:50 PM

Tom, from what I've gathered, it appears that on tour, they've been using this form of measurement for "effective loft" for a long time before the adjustable hosels became popular.  I'm not sure at what point they started doing this, but there's articles going back as far as the early 90's that references it.

So it looks like with any bending that was done to change face angle, they would/will always rotate the head to 0* in the spec gauge to measure loft.  Maybe when the techs on tour began having the ability to bend face angle was when they decided to go this route for measurement?  I know with the original small head Taylormade woods/drivers that had a very long hosel, they were doing a lot of significant bending in the later 80's and early 90's

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#75 TomWishon

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 02:16 PM

View PostCwebb, on 24 September 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Tom, from what I've gathered, it appears that on tour, they've been using this form of measurement for "effective loft" for a long time before the adjustable hosels became popular.  I'm not sure at what point they started doing this, but there's articles going back as far as the early 90's that references it.

So it looks like with any bending that was done to change face angle, they would/will always rotate the head to 0* in the spec gauge to measure loft.  Maybe when the techs on tour began having the ability to bend face angle was when they decided to go this route for measurement?  I know with the original small head Taylormade woods/drivers that had a very long hosel, they were doing a lot of significant bending in the later 80's and early 90's

From what I know, the bending of drivers done by the tech vans on tour was chiefly done for one of two reasons.  Either the player just did not like the way his driver "sat" and wanted it bent to tweak that look - meaning the face angle, or the player did always hold his driver square and thus had the bend done to try to tweak the loft for a different shot shape preference he had.   When I first became aware of this being done in the vans, I did wonder about that because none of these pre adjustable hosel drivers were made with a softer titanium for the hosel.  So they just were nigh on impossible to bend cold.  And then one time when I happened to see a driver that Vijay was using where the paint was completely blistered at the base of the hosel, I figured that the old propane torch had been used to soften the hosel enough to allow the tech to crank the hosel a bit.  

Over at the production factories, when an all 6/4 titanium driver head goes through its bend check procedure to get the lie and face angle within tolerance, all foundries who do this would have a special device that rotated the head slowly while a fixed MAPP gas torch heated the base of the hosel cherry red - this was the only way the factories could bend a titanium driver to get it within its tolerance since all the companies use the same 6/4 ti alloy for the hosel that they use for the body and face of the head too.


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#76 xgolfx

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 02:38 PM

this is the best explanation of adjustments that I have seen. Static loft versus playing loft.

CHARLEY PENNA

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#77 rybo

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 04:40 PM

Tom,

Does this make sense?

A TM 10* FCT setting + a 3O ASP setting = a Wishon 12* loft + 4* open face angle

Both heads will have:

4* open face angles
10* loft when square
12* loft when soled

And for the sake of the discussion lets say both heads have perfect specs.

Edited by rybo, 24 September 2014 - 05:38 PM.


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#78 cxx

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 07:55 PM

Somehow we have spun back to where we started.  I'm not sure that the regular golfer is confused by the adjustable hosel.  Maybe a poll is required to see whether people think that the adjustable drivers actually work.  I think most think that they do from their own experience with them.

It's better to view face angle and loft as related quantities rather than thinking that by adopting the new measurement of loft the face angle as a fitting parameter is eliminated.  If someone has a driver that is hooded at address, either from the way it lies on the ground, or the way the golfer holds it, that person is getting the benefit of a closed face angle.  Hopefully the face will be square when the clubface hits the ball.  The loft when square is the important one.

As long as we are beating a dead horse, here is a thread with a video that shows the Covert being loft adjusted keeping the same face angle.  All in effective lofts of course.
http://www.golfwrx.c...nly-face-angle/

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#79 pafill

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 08:43 PM

View Posttmfool, on 23 September 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

all due respect to Tom - getting hung up on loft, face angle, marketing hype - is irrelevant to RESULTS

where does the ball go - and is it optimal and predictable (for me)

ever since mwt & fct became available - I open the face and put weight on the toe - in an effort to take left side of golf course out-of-play

R9 430cc was a 10.5 head

RBZ Tour was a 9.0 head

SLDR 430cc is a 12.0 head

they all work(ed). that's all that matters


   Sure did try to make that point earlier. point being= hitting the ball consistently at or near the "sweet spot". Just take some impact paper and take your adjustable driver to the range. Make several adjustment until you reach the point of consistantly hitting the sweet spot . Each swing of the driver is always never the same but adjustability can get you close to your "normal" swing. The adjustment settings will surprise you.

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#80 Dinosaur

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 08:55 PM

View Postpafill, on 24 September 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

View Posttmfool, on 23 September 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

all due respect to Tom - getting hung up on loft, face angle, marketing hype - is irrelevant to RESULTS

where does the ball go - and is it optimal and predictable (for me)

ever since mwt & fct became available - I open the face and put weight on the toe - in an effort to take left side of golf course out-of-play

R9 430cc was a 10.5 head

RBZ Tour was a 9.0 head

SLDR 430cc is a 12.0 head

they all work(ed). that's all that matters


   Sure did try to make that point earlier. point being= hitting the ball consistently at or near the "sweet spot". Just take some impact paper and take your adjustable driver to the range. Make several adjustment until you reach the point of consistantly hitting the sweet spot . Each swing of the driver is always never the same but adjustability can get you close to your "normal" swing. The adjustment settings will surprise you.

ergo..is there really a need for adjustable drivers?  Once set, you shouldn't have to change it again. Get fit to start with with fixed hosel, open or closed face, optimum loft for you. Done deal.  Then again, that takes us back to the beginning of the thread. Then you say, well later on, my swing may change and I can simply adjust accordingly. Never works, because by that time you will want the newest, fad, driver that promises 20 more yards.

"Non rinunciare mai quello
che desideri...."
Go with what you know!

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#81 MadGolfer76

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 09:17 PM

View Postpafill, on 24 September 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

View Posttmfool, on 23 September 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

all due respect to Tom - getting hung up on loft, face angle, marketing hype - is irrelevant to RESULTS

where does the ball go - and is it optimal and predictable (for me)

ever since mwt & fct became available - I open the face and put weight on the toe - in an effort to take left side of golf course out-of-play

R9 430cc was a 10.5 head

RBZ Tour was a 9.0 head

SLDR 430cc is a 12.0 head

they all work(ed). that's all that matters


   Sure did try to make that point earlier. point being= hitting the ball consistently at or near the "sweet spot". Just take some impact paper and take your adjustable driver to the range. Make several adjustment until you reach the point of consistantly hitting the sweet spot . Each swing of the driver is always never the same but adjustability can get you close to your "normal" swing. The adjustment settings will surprise you.

The difference in this conversation is knowing what works versus searching randomly for the best current setting in a given club. Honestly, this stuff isn't so hard to understand.

Edited by MadGolfer76, 25 September 2014 - 09:55 AM.

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#82 farmer

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 09:40 PM

This may be a stupid question, but...I have a driver with an adjustable sleeve.  Four settings, 9 1/2 neutral, 10 1/2 closed, 8 1/2 open.  Upright, but never used.  So, I'm a reasonably square face player.  To hit it straight, the 10 1/2 and the 8 1/2 both have to get back to neutral, correct?  So, in effect, I bought a tricked out 9 1/2* driver? Which would explain why I have never seen any effect from twiddling with the settings?

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#83 rybo

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 05:59 AM

Please read:

http://www.ralphmalt...rum/article/357

Understanding and Fitting Driver Face Angle and Loft

You will rarely know the real loft of your driver even if you are reading the loft engraved on the driver head or if you are reading the loft and face angle specifications on a company’s internet site. The only way to know the real or “effective loft” of any driver is to put it into a special golf club measuring gauge and measure it accurately with a special protractor.

Posted Image
The “Special” Golf Club Gauge in my studio is capable of accurately measuring loft, lie and face angle in 1/10th degree increments. The driver shown has 55 degrees lie angle, 12.5 (12½) degrees of loft and the face angle here is purposely adjusted in the gauge to 0 degrees so the loft can be measured in the square face (hit) position. The vertical bar you see resting against the face is measuring the loft and is touching the face at ½ of the face height. The two small protruding bars on either side of the vertical bar measure the face angle and are equidistant on both sides of the horizontal face center. If the driver has a flat sole from front to back you simply press it down flat on the gauges base and measure the face angle. However, many drivers now have curved soles from front to back, so you need to know where the manufacturer intended for the club to touch the ground before you can get an accurate face angle measurement. The lie angle is measured with the sole of the club touching the gauge at the clubs horizontal face center (most, but not all manufacturers use the center of the face scoring lines as the center of the face). Conclusion; if every driver was measured as shown here, it would be a perfect apples to apples comparison from one driver to another as far as the real or “effective loft” is concerned. Maybe I should go up to my local Golf Galaxy store and measure every driver in the store as I have shown here in the photo and provide a list of the real lofts for a reference to go by?

The reasons for this are a good starting point for this discussion. The first reason is that manufacturers vary in the method and way they measure driver loft. The second reason is that some manufacturers simply put a loft number on the driver head because it is a very popular loft with driver buyers; but they want you in a different loft that they feel works better with their driver. The third reason is that manufacturing tolerances for loft, even from the very best head manufacturing companies overseas, will be plus or minus 1 degree from the specification. The fourth reason is the amount of vertical face roll that is specified. Since most modern 460cc drivers are actually hit above face center, a driver with more vertical face curvature will have a greater loft at impact than a driver with less vertical face curvature. I threw in vertical face roll since it is “real world” with modern drivers but it has no effect on the stated or measured loft which is always measured at ½ the vertical face height.  

The above reasons are why it is so important to get fit in a launch monitor or to actually see the ball flight on a driving range or the golf course. However, this does not solve our problem of comparing driver lofts before we actually test them and especially so when comparing more than one manufacturer’s drivers. This is a real grey area and a difficult one for the golfer.  

Let’s bring face angle into the equation here. The face angle on a driver is basically defined as the clubface angle when the driver is soled on a hard surface with the shaft held perfectly at a 90 degree angle to the line of flight. So, the face angle can be perfectly square (0 degrees) to the line of flight, open to the line of flight (called slice face) or closed to the line of flight (called hook face). The face angle is used in a driver to help a less skilled golfer get a better (corrected) ball flight with either a problem they have in their swing or help a more skilled golfer  get the desired ball flight (draw, fade or straight hit) from a driver. Keep in mind that hitting a ball straight, curving it to the right or curving it to the left is solely a function of the driver’s face angle and path at impact. Only three conditions can occur; the face angle can be square to the path (straight shot), closed to the path (hook or draw shot) or open to the path (slice or fade shot).

At one time, all drivers were measured for loft by using the angle formed from across the sole to the face. Irons were never measured this way; they were measured the correct way from the hosel centerline to the face in the square hit position. Today, to find the real or “effective loft” of any driver I always measure it from the hosel centerline to the face in the square position and at ½ the vertical face height. Of course as stated earlier, you need a precision golf club gauge to do it accurately. Notice I said the square position meaning the face is pointed directly at the target and the shaft is perpendicular to the target. This eliminates any built in face angle and makes it a square face. We need to know the real loft here and if we measured it with the face either open or closed; we would get a different loft reading. Manufacturers today are using both methods to state driver loft and you have no way to tell how they are doing it other than to measure the heads in a golf club gauge.

Here’s what this loft and face angle stuff means in regards to fitting. We will use a tour pro for example; to hit the ball straight and apply maximum force to the ball, a tour pro has his face angle and clubhead path perfectly square. To hit a draw, the tour pro will either adjust the face angle or the path so that the face angle at impact is from 1 to 2 degrees closed to the path. Since face angle is more of a determining factor in initial ball direction than clubhead path (80% vs. 20%); the tour pro will almost always keep the face angle square to the target and swing from 1 to 2 degrees inside out. This starts the ball slightly right of the target and the balls slight draw spin curves it back toward the target. Easier said than done. 1 degree produces a very slight draw and 2 degrees a normal draw. Over 3 degrees is a hook and over 4 degrees is a terrible hook. So you see that controlling clubhead and path properly and consistently takes some skill because we are dealing with very small amounts of angle change that affect big amounts of ball flight change.

This is why the manufacturers make different face angles. The face angle in the design will automatically open up the face on an “open or slice face angle” and automatically close the face on a “closed or hook face angle”. Of course you need to set the driver head on the ground or some hard surface for this to occur. Regardless of the face angle, you can always position the face at any angle you would like when setting up to the ball. The one thing to keep in mind here is that as you reposition the face angle at setup with your driver, you also change the actual loft angle. In other words for every degree you hold the face closed you also decrease the loft by the same amount. Conversely, if you roll the face open you will increase the loft. If a manufacturer measures their driver loft across the sole and up the face, this will be the stated loft in the specifications and probably engraved on the head. Let’s assume the stated loft is 10 degrees. Also, let’s assume this manufacturer specified a 2 degree closed or hook face angle. If this were your driver and you were a lesser skilled golfer, the 2 degree closed face angle at address would help you get a more closed or hook face angle to clubhead path at impact and this could help out with your slicing problem. However, if the more skilled golfer would play the same club and actually rotated the face to square with the target at address, he would actually be increasing the “effective driver loft” by 2 degrees. Calculation; take the 10 degree stated loft angle and add to it the 2 degrees you rolled the face open to square it with the target, this gives you an actual total of 12 degrees of loft. So, once again you have no chance at knowing what the actual “effective loft” of your driver really is without an accurate measurement gauge.

Hopefully, this is helping with explaining driver loft and also with how you use driver face angle in fitting. My personal preference for face angle for all golfers who are not trying to correct a problem is to play with a square (0 degree) face angle. This makes the club sit square when you sole it on the ground and then you can adjust the face angle at address as desired. Most tour pro’s drivers I have measured are within ½ degree of square. For average women golfers, say over a 20 handicap, I would recommend 2 or 3 degrees closed face angle and an effective loft at impact of 12 to 15 degrees. The idea here is to keep the ball from starting right of the target (a tendency of women who have a difficult time squaring the clubface coming into impact) and also to help women hit the ball higher which will give them greater distance in almost every case. Of course this is only a general statement and does not replace a good launch monitor or driving range fitting for women or any golfer for that matter.

One of the difficulties when I get general driver questions on the forum is that I do not know the actual loft on their drivers. I get questions such as,” I play with a 7 degree lofted driver and I still hit the ball too high”. Well, many 7 degree loft drivers are actually 10 degree lofted drivers when they are actually measured. So, it is very difficult for me to look for solutions. If the 7 degree were correct, I would immediately go to the shaft flex, shaft weight and shaft tip stiffness. I would also look at the club length and the head weight and swingweight. You get the point.

The launch monitor can really help us through all of this and if no launch monitor or driving range is feasible, then you really need to be fit by someone who at least has an accurate golf club gauge to measure driver loft. As a matter of fact, while I am at it here, I will add in a frequency machine as another needed piece of equipment. This is the fastest way to determine one driver’s flex feel from another when comparing them. This is only one of the factors however in fitting a golfer to the best shaft for him.

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#84 TomWishon

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 12:07 PM

View Postrybo, on 24 September 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Tom,

Does this make sense?

A TM 10* FCT setting + a 3O ASP setting = a Wishon 12* loft + 4* open face angle

Both heads will have:

4* open face angles
10* loft when square
12* loft when soled

And for the sake of the discussion lets say both heads have perfect specs.

I can't answer that because I would have to have both driver heads in my shop to check, measure and see.  I'm not familiar with your terms FCT and ASP.  Are those terms you and others use to describe the sleeve and the sole device on the R1?  If so, I do have that R1 in my shop that I measured specs from for the report I did and could set the sleeve and sole disk on those settings you describe to see and let you know.

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#85 tembolo1284

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 12:14 PM

View PostTomMatreyek, on 17 September 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

This needs to be pinned.
everything tom posts needs to be pinned.

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All shafts are S2S Stepless Steel Wishon

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#86 Cwebb

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 12:17 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 25 September 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:


I can't answer that because I would have to have both driver heads in my shop to check, measure and see.  I'm not familiar with your terms FCT and ASP.  Are those terms you and others use to describe the sleeve and the sole device on the R1?  If so, I do have that R1 in my shop that I measured specs from for the report I did and could set the sleeve and sole disk on those settings you describe to see and let you know.

FCT:  is Face Control Tech, from the adjustable hosel

ASP:  is the Adjustable Sole Plate

26

#87 rybo

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 12:27 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 25 September 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

View Postrybo, on 24 September 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Tom,

Does this make sense?

A TM 10* FCT setting + a 3O ASP setting = a Wishon 12* loft + 4* open face angle

Both heads will have:

4* open face angles
10* loft when square
12* loft when soled

And for the sake of the discussion lets say both heads have perfect specs.

I can't answer that because I would have to have both driver heads in my shop to check, measure and see.  I'm not familiar with your terms FCT and ASP.  Are those terms you and others use to describe the sleeve and the sole device on the R1?  If so, I do have that R1 in my shop that I measured specs from for the report I did and could set the sleeve and sole disk on those settings you describe to see and let you know.

That's why I included the last sentence that stated 'And for the sake of the discussion lets say both heads have perfect specs'.  Speaking purely in theory.

Also please comment on the Raplh Maltby article posted on how to measure a driver head.

Edited by rybo, 25 September 2014 - 12:29 PM.


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#88 rybo

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 12:30 PM

View PostCwebb, on 25 September 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

View PostTomWishon, on 25 September 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

I can't answer that because I would have to have both driver heads in my shop to check, measure and see.  I'm not familiar with your terms FCT and ASP.  Are those terms you and others use to describe the sleeve and the sole device on the R1?  If so, I do have that R1 in my shop that I measured specs from for the report I did and could set the sleeve and sole disk on those settings you describe to see and let you know.

FCT:  is Face Control Tech, from the adjustable hosel

ASP:  is the Adjustable Sole Plate
Thank you Cwebb.....

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#89 TomWishon

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 12:33 PM

View PostCwebb, on 25 September 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

View PostTomWishon, on 25 September 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

I can't answer that because I would have to have both driver heads in my shop to check, measure and see.  I'm not familiar with your terms FCT and ASP.  Are those terms you and others use to describe the sleeve and the sole device on the R1?  If so, I do have that R1 in my shop that I measured specs from for the report I did and could set the sleeve and sole disk on those settings you describe to see and let you know.

FCT:  is Face Control Tech, from the adjustable hosel

ASP:  is the Adjustable Sole Plate

OK, so that proves I don't read the marketing information !

29

#90 rybo

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 12:38 PM

Tom,

Lets leave TaylorMade out of the question, if you hand select a 919 driver head to have a 12* loft and a 0* face angle and then bend this head to 4* open,  what will the loft be when the face is measured in a square face angle position?

Edited by rybo, 25 September 2014 - 12:48 PM.


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