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How adjustable drivers actually work. Everyone should be required to watch this to be allowed to post on this site. Thanks Tom Wishon


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#31 TomWishon

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 04:41 PM

View Postrebby, on 17 September 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:


Now what happens when we throw in a sole plate like the R11/R11S? In this case do we actually have access to all 3 variables in a single adjustable club? On the surface, it would certainly appear to be the case, although, perhaps, not in the exact manner that TM advertises it? IIRC, TM advertises the sole plate as what changes the face angle, wouldn't the sole plate change the loft (and conversely, the hosel would change the face angle, not the loft)?

It is an attempt to have access to face angle with loft, but the loft measurement indicated on the hosel sleeve and the face angle measurement indicated on the sole dial are not what the club measures for either spec when placed in the soled position.  And for the sole dial to even have a chance to affect face angle, the head has to sit on its sole.   I have all measurements of loft, lie and face angle for each of the 64 different combinations of the hosel sleeve and sole dial if anyone wants to see them but with 64 lines and 3 columns that's too many numbers to post here to flood everyone out.   Also, the company says nothing about lie being affected from either the hosel sleeve or the sole dial but it most certainly does change with each different rotation of the hosel sleeve.  


View Postrebby, on 17 September 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

As if I'm not confusing the situation enough already... It seems that Tour Edge Exotics is being even more/less confusing about what their adjustments are doing. I have to ask however, how are they getting a "loft" adjustment while still disclosing what's going on w/the face angle?


I have not had one of these Tour Edge drivers to measure but a quick inspection shows that it uses a rotational hosel sleeve just like all the others.  And the ONLY way ANY of these hosel sleeves can be made is to have the bore at an angle to the outside plane of the sleeve so that upon rotation to different positions, the shaft is angled differently into the head and with relation to the sole plane.  There is no other possible way that a hosel sleeve can be engineered.   Therefore there just is no way that ANY adjustable hosel driver can change both loft and face angle when the head is soled.  And if the head is held at a 0 face position, obviously that locks face angle always at 0, so that orientation of the head won't allow the loft and face angle to change together with each hosel adjustment.


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#32 pappaf2

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 04:50 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 17 September 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

View Posterock9174, on 17 September 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

So let me know if I got this straight.

Adjustable driver:
Soled to a 0* square position every time = adjustment changes the loft up or down

Soled as it lays, any adjustment = no effect on loft but changes face angle

Absolutely correct, but in both cases the lie angle does also change with the change in the hosel device for any of the adj hosel drivers.

Hi Tom, thanks for taking the time to put together this great video. Quick question for you. You say that the lie angle changes when you adjust the settings on any adj hosel driver. How does that relationship work?

For example, I use a cobra amp driver that has a very basic adj hosel ( square, 2* closed, 2* open ). If I adjust it to open or closed and let it sole how it wants to sit naturally how will the lie be affected? Likewise if I adjust it to open or closed and then rotate the face back to square at address how does that affect the lie angle?

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#33 TomWishon

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 05:48 PM

View Postpappaf2, on 18 September 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

Quick question for you. You say that the lie angle changes when you adjust the settings on any adj hosel driver. How does that relationship work?

For example, I use a cobra amp driver that has a very basic adj hosel ( square, 2* closed, 2* open ). If I adjust it to open or closed and let it sole how it wants to sit naturally how will the lie be affected? Likewise if I adjust it to open or closed and then rotate the face back to square at address how does that affect the lie angle?

Thanks

This is a tough one to type in a written description that can be anywhere near as clear and understandable as being face to face to illustrate in person, but I will try.  

All of the adjustments in lie and face angle have to do with the shaft being positioned at an angle to the sole and to the bore in which the sleeve is inserted.  Now when you look straight down the neck of the head, think of the face of a clock.  

When the shaft is angled toward the face side of the head at a 9 o'clock position, when you sole the head, you close the face but leave lie alone.  

When the shaft is angled toward the toe end of the head at a 12 o'clock position, when you sole the head, you make the lie more flat but you leave the face angle neutral.  

When the shaft is angled toward the rear side of the head at a 3 o'clock position, when you sole the head, you open the face but you leave lie alone.  

When the shaft is angled toward the heel end of the head at a 6 o'clock position, when you sole the head, you make the lie more upright but you leave the face angle neutral.  

Now there of course can be positions for the angle of the shaft in the sleeve that are in between these 9, 12, 3 and 6 positions.  

If the shaft is angled toward the face and toe at a 10:30 position, when you sole the head, you have a slightly closed face WITH a slightly more flat lie at the same time.  

If the shaft is angled toward the face and toe at a 1:30 position, when you sole the head, you have a slightly open face WITH a slightly more flat lie at the same time.  

If the shaft is angled toward the face and toe at a 4:30 position, when you sole the head, you have a slightly open face WITH a slightly more upright lie at the same time.  

If the shaft is angled toward the face and toe at a 7:30 position, when you sole the head, you have a slightly closed face WITH a slightly more upright lie at the same time.  

How much these specs change as the angle of the shaft changes into the head depends on how much of an angle the bore is made to be inside the sleeve with respect to the line of the hosel into which the sleeve is inserted.  The more you want the angle of the shaft to change as you rotate the sleeve, the larger the sleeve has to be in diameter AND with it the larger the hosel has to be into which the sleeve is inserted.  

Hope this helps, but I will understand if this written explanation results in a bit of a "HUH??"  reaction.

TOM

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#34 Froth

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 06:28 PM

^I love technical explanations like that Tom.  Great stuff!
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#35 Cwing

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 06:39 PM

Fantastic video. Thank you for that.

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#36 pappaf2

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 06:40 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 18 September 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

View Postpappaf2, on 18 September 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

Quick question for you. You say that the lie angle changes when you adjust the settings on any adj hosel driver. How does that relationship work?

For example, I use a cobra amp driver that has a very basic adj hosel ( square, 2* closed, 2* open ). If I adjust it to open or closed and let it sole how it wants to sit naturally how will the lie be affected? Likewise if I adjust it to open or closed and then rotate the face back to square at address how does that affect the lie angle?

Thanks

This is a tough one to type in a written description that can be anywhere near as clear and understandable as being face to face to illustrate in person, but I will try.  

All of the adjustments in lie and face angle have to do with the shaft being positioned at an angle to the sole and to the bore in which the sleeve is inserted.  Now when you look straight down the neck of the head, think of the face of a clock.  

When the shaft is angled toward the face side of the head at a 9 o'clock position, when you sole the head, you close the face but leave lie alone.  

When the shaft is angled toward the toe end of the head at a 12 o'clock position, when you sole the head, you make the lie more flat but you leave the face angle neutral.  

When the shaft is angled toward the rear side of the head at a 3 o'clock position, when you sole the head, you open the face but you leave lie alone.  

When the shaft is angled toward the heel end of the head at a 6 o'clock position, when you sole the head, you make the lie more upright but you leave the face angle neutral.  

Now there of course can be positions for the angle of the shaft in the sleeve that are in between these 9, 12, 3 and 6 positions.  

If the shaft is angled toward the face and toe at a 10:30 position, when you sole the head, you have a slightly closed face WITH a slightly more flat lie at the same time.  

If the shaft is angled toward the face and toe at a 1:30 position, when you sole the head, you have a slightly open face WITH a slightly more flat lie at the same time.  

If the shaft is angled toward the face and toe at a 4:30 position, when you sole the head, you have a slightly open face WITH a slightly more upright lie at the same time.  

If the shaft is angled toward the face and toe at a 7:30 position, when you sole the head, you have a slightly closed face WITH a slightly more upright lie at the same time.  

How much these specs change as the angle of the shaft changes into the head depends on how much of an angle the bore is made to be inside the sleeve with respect to the line of the hosel into which the sleeve is inserted.  The more you want the angle of the shaft to change as you rotate the sleeve, the larger the sleeve has to be in diameter AND with it the larger the hosel has to be into which the sleeve is inserted.  

Hope this helps, but I will understand if this written explanation results in a bit of a "HUH??"  reaction.

TOM

Nope that was a nice explanation, thanks Tom.
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#37 craniac76

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 06:38 AM

I have two adjustable drivers.  Taylormade R1 v2 and Nike Covert Tour 2.0.  When I add the loft on R1, it does closed the face considerably.   However, with Nike when I adjust the loft from 10.5 to 12.5, the face angle doesn't look closed at all.   Can anyone explain this?

BTW I hate closed face driver because my misses are hooks.

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#38 Wooderson

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 07:07 AM

Tom you keep talking about this in terms of in the soled position.  The question is if you make an adjustment with one of these sleeves, make the same exact grip, and apply the same exact swing and hit the ball will it change launch?  The answer is yes.  Therefore they do what they are designed to do.
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#39 Pigems

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 07:17 AM

Great video, thanks for sharing :)
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#40 TomWishon

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 08:43 AM

View PostWooderson, on 19 September 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

Tom you keep talking about this in terms of in the soled position.  The question is if you make an adjustment with one of these sleeves, make the same exact grip, and apply the same exact swing and hit the ball will it change launch?  The answer is yes.  Therefore they do what they are designed to do.

Of course any of the adj hosel drivers will show a change in ball flight when you change the hosel setting and then sole the club.   But the change when you do this is a change in the shot shape brought about from the change in the face angle or the lie angle and not the loft - because if you SOLE the head, the rotation of the hosel piece changes the face angle and the lie angle at the same time but not the loft.  

The whole basis for fitting is to know exactly what the loft, face angle and lie specs of the club are that the golfer uses so when you see ball flight that is not yet optimal, you then can know what to change on either the loft, face angle or lie, and how much to change which one(s) so that you can end up with the golfer's best shot results.  

With the adj hosel drivers, you do not know precisely what the loft, lie and face angle is for any of the hosel device changes because the companies do not tell you exactly what is the loft, what is the lie, what is the face angle, for each hosel setting, and for whether you sole the head or hold it square behind the ball.  If these companies put our multiple charts - one for what each spec really is when you sole the head and when you hold it square, then they would be in a position where golfers could know exactly what the loft, face angle and lie specs are for each hosel setting, for the soled and for the hold square behind the ball address positions.  

In the past, you always got this information because every company followed the same exact way of defining loft, face angle and lie by soling the head and taking the measurements in that position only.  I am not saying these adj hosel drivers cannot work for golfers.  of course they do.  I am just saying that the way these companies did their adj hosel drivers makes the selection of the loft, lie and face angle a guessing game - rotate, hit, see what happens, rotate, hit, see what happens - until you get the results you want.   But when you get there through trial and experimentation, do you then really know what your loft, lie and face angle is that you and your swing need to get your best results?  

That's fine if people want to go through a trial and experimentation process.  But fitting really becomes so much more of a controlled, precise, effective, predictive process when you know exactly what the loft, face angle and lie specs of the club are that the golfer uses so when you see ball flight that is not yet optimal, you then can know what to change on either the loft, face angle or lie, and how much to change which one(s) so that you can end up with the golfer's best shot results.


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#41 ParadoxTheatre

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 09:19 AM

Great video! I guess when I think about it, I have always (whether I do it consciously or subconsciously) tried to square the face of woods at address. My misses with driver (and fairway woods) tend to be pulls, snap hooks, or pushes--no real dominant miss to any one side. When I started hitting my 4 wood, and started getting some wild push fades that I wasn't used to when hitting off the tee, it made more sense when I discovered the 4.75 open face angle and 18.75 static loft angle on the thing. with specs like that, if I actually do square the face, it'll have an effective loft around 15--which with my steep attack angle doesn't do me much good if I intend on using it like a 4 wood.

I also have a G25 10.5 head with a face angle closer to +7 and a static loft of 15.5. Once again, by the time I square the face, the effective loft is too low.

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#42 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 11:33 AM

View Postcraniac76, on 19 September 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

I have two adjustable drivers.  Taylormade R1 v2 and Nike Covert Tour 2.0.  When I add the loft on R1, it does closed the face considerably.   However, with Nike when I adjust the loft from 10.5 to 12.5, the face angle doesn't look closed at all.   Can anyone explain this?

BTW I hate closed face driver because my misses are hooks.

By "closed" I presume you mean when resting on the ground. If that is the case, it is the design of the Covert sole that allows you to make the changes and still have the club appear "open" at rest. That is why they designed the sole to have a relatively thin area that rests on the ground. It gives the clubhead the same tendency as an iron clubhead so that FA is not an issue when changes are made to the hosel adjustment. The Cobra Amp Cell and Bio Cell line with the "Smart Pad" sole design do the same thing to some extent.

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#43 Wooderson

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 06:45 AM

Tom I was in no way trying to say don't get fit.  I'm in your corner on that one.  I just know there are people who have jumped to conclusions that the adjustable sleeves don't work.  They do work just not in a way people would think.

Now I would like to open a little dialogue with you for learning purposes.  You state that the sleeves do change the club head to shaft relationship along the lie angle axis and rotational axis.  If it affects the club in this manner than how can it not also affect the club to shaft relationship along the axis of the club face?  Now I am not talking about when soled in a spec gauge.  I am talking about relationship of head position to the shaft.
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#44 cxx

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 07:15 AM

I'm sorry but I think that some golfers, Tom included, are clinging to the past by holding to the soled loft measurement for "woods".  It is easier to think of the adjustable woods as we think of irons.  Holding the face angle at address is part of the setup.

Aside from the soled loft, the bendable hosel driver could be bent to any of the positions of the adjustable hosel driver (and some that are outside the range of any particular adjustable hosel arrangement) with equivalent results. It's just a bit harder to do.

The face angle/loft is really about delivering the club head square to the ball rather than the look at address.  I think that is the whole idea behind the closed face "draw" driver.  Thats what the slice golfer needs to deliver a more square clubface to the ball. Before the draw driver most had to hood the face closed to get a square hit.  More commonly on golfwrx, we have the quest for the "open faced" driver that helps prevent hooks.

I think the clearest example of the modern driver is the Covert, which has a limited sole that won't interfere the rather large range of loft settings.  I don't know anyone who says that these settings don't work or are too complicated to use without instruction.

Edited by cxx, 20 September 2014 - 07:17 AM.


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#45 Cwebb

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 06:49 PM

View Postcraniac76, on 19 September 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

I have two adjustable drivers.  Taylormade R1 v2 and Nike Covert Tour 2.0.  When I add the loft on R1, it does closed the face considerably.   However, with Nike when I adjust the loft from 10.5 to 12.5, the face angle doesn't look closed at all.   Can anyone explain this?

BTW I hate closed face driver because my misses are hooks.

Most Taylormade's have a "two touch point sole" in how they rest on the ground.  It effectively creates a wide sole that really wants to sit at whatever the face angle is.  On the R1's and R11's that have the dial "ASP" adjustment....that is the back touch point....which is way back on the sole away from the face.

Other drivers only have a single touch point that is much closer to the face...with the back of the sole "relieved" or "cut away".  This effectively creates a narrow sole width, that is much closer to an iron, that can be opened or closed easily.  This creates much less of a defined angle at which they will want to sit

Edited by Cwebb, 20 September 2014 - 06:53 PM.


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#46 Forged4ever

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 06:31 PM

View Postjldavis73, on 17 September 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

For once, I feel a little bit smarter after watching something on YouTube.  Thanks!
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#47 Farrow

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:48 AM

So in the first portion of this video Tom clearly shows us that specs were measured one way with “wood” woods, and that there was a shift to a new method once metal woods hit the scene.  So why does one jump in technology deserve a redefinition of spec measurements, but the newest jump does not?  Was the “wood” woods method not used for “decades and decades” as Tom so clearly points out about the “green machine”?  Sometimes the way things were done in the past becomes antiquated and there is a need for a new process.  It seems to me that this video is more of a marketing video for his own product than a purely educational piece.

And his statements about adjustable drivers muddling up the fitting process are totally absurd.  With a trained fitter these adjustable clubs can make fittings much simpler and faster.  The trial and error method is only for people who grab a club off the rack and take it to the range on their own without any knowledge of club fitting.  If a club fitter is worth his beans at all, he can fit using the new technology with no problem.  If anything, the new tech gives fitters more options.  Say someone wants to be fit for an SLDR (I have no loyalty or interest in TaylorMade, it’s just an example), the fitter can choose from 9.5°, 10.5°, 12°, and 14° lofts.   They also have the ability to change settings on the fly.  Say the “lower” setting on the adapter seems to give you the best shot shape, but the 9.5° head launches slightly too low, the fitter can easily swap it out for a 10.5° head on the same setting.  And where the fitter comes in is being able to take the guess work out of it and start with a setting that will most likely fit the golfer and fine tune from there.  This is the same as has been done for years in the past with “traditional” clubs. It's just that now all the fitter needs to adjust the club to your specs is a wrench instead of a specialized clamp that most shops would never have to begin with.

Lastly, no golfer brings the club head into impact with the exact same setup that they had at address.  The golf swing is dynamic and therefore the dynamic loft is much more important than static loft.  Of course from a fitting stand point you have to start with the correct static loft to get the correct dynamic loft, but just because a golfer lets the club sole on the ground before a shot does not by any means indicate that’s the same orientation the club will be in when it meets the ball.  Therefore, perhaps a redefined method for measuring loft was needed all along.  Just because a certain method has been used for years and years does not mean it’s the best way or the correct way.  If the world ran on that logic we’d all still be living in caves wearing animal skin leotards.

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#48 TMBob

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 11:18 AM

Some what confused here and have included a few examples of why,

So I buy a fixed hosel driver and it's custom fit to my specs. (lie, loft and fa) It is custom fit this way to help me hit the ball straighter based on my main miss because I cannot square the club up at impact. I start to learn how to square the ball up at impact and now what? Pretty clear, you need a new driver to match your correction.  If this was the same case with an adjustable head, are you saying that I could not just make an adjustment to the orientation of the sleeve to match my swing changes?  

So I buy an adjustable driver in a loft that has worked for me in the past in a fix headed driver. I prefer a open look at address which I could not find in a fixed hosel version so I set the sleeve on open. I aline my grip to match this open position based on the club while being soled, but when I address the ball with my driver, I do not sole the driver to the ground. I grip the driver based on the grip looking square and the face angle looking open. I never soled the head at address.....is the club not open and have a slightly lower loft?

Also, When Tom mentioned his sleeves, and why they were different then the others, it just flew right by me. Can someone explain the difference please.

After watching the video, I am interested in getting fit for a custom fixed head mainly because of lie angle. ( I need a flatter lie, or at least I think so as most of the newer heads seem to have a rocker sole that when I address it, the toe is sitting very high up. Or I need to try a much shorter shaft which Tom's charts agrees with)

Seems to me the biggest effect on face angle and loft are the players hands at impact and how they grip the shaft, followed by how they swing at the ball and how their eyes perceive what a square face is.

This thread make me want to pull out my bent open TM Tour SQ again....no more adjustable heads for me! Oh wait....that means no more shaft Ho'ing.  



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#49 Farrow

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 12:41 PM

View PostTMBob, on 22 September 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Also, When Tom mentioned his sleeves, and why they were different then the others, it just flew right by me. Can someone explain the difference please.

There's no difference in the technology. His sales pitch is that he provides a 3 page booklet with all the specs listed out for each method of measurement.

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#50 TomWishon

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 01:28 PM

View PostWooderson, on 20 September 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

Tom I was in no way trying to say don't get fit.  I'm in your corner on that one.  I just know there are people who have jumped to conclusions that the adjustable sleeves don't work.  They do work just not in a way people would think.

I have tried very hard in my writing and in this video to say that the adjustable hosel drivers will display the loft stated on the hosel within normal +/- tolerances as long as the golfer holds the face square to the ball.  And so if the golfer knows that he does not need an open or closed face angle and then if he knows that with these adj hosel drivers he is supposed to always hold the face square to the ball and not let it rest on the sole, he will get the loft stated on the sleeve, or close to it.   Anyone who jumps to the conclusion that I am saying the adj hosel drivers are bad for ALL golfers is not listening closely enough.  As you say, they don't deliver their stated loft in the manner that all the companies used to make their drivers, which was to always base the loft, lie and face angle spec measurements on soling the driver to sit flat on its sole on the ground in the address position.   So as long as the golfer knows that he has to always hold the face square, he gets the loft within tolerances as stated on the sleeve.  Thing is, in all my digging into this area, I have yet to see or read that any of the companies say you have to hold the face square with the driver like you do with an iron for this to work as advertised.  

View PostWooderson, on 20 September 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

Now I would like to open a little dialogue with you for learning purposes.  You state that the sleeves do change the club head to shaft relationship along the lie angle axis and rotational axis.  If it affects the club in this manner than how can it not also affect the club to shaft relationship along the axis of the club face?  Now I am not talking about when soled in a spec gauge.  I am talking about relationship of head position to the shaft.

Whenever you sole the driver to sit flat on its sole, whether on the ground or in a specs measurement gauge, as the angle of the shaft changes in the head, the loft never changes but the lie and the face angle do change.  Soling the driver head to sit flat on its sole has been the only way that every single golf company and every single clubhead production factory did these measurements - up until the time that the major companies began to make drivers with the adjustable hosel sleeve.  I believe the problem most golfers have with my attempts to clarify all this is that they themselves do not have any experience in head design and head specs measurement. They own an adjustable hosel driver, they found a setting that works for them and so anything I say to try to clarify this confusing issue is taken as either me being wrong or me attacking the big companies.

If you take any iron and bend the hosel in a direction toward or away from the target, the reason this changes loft is because you ALWAYS position the iron face square in the specs machine every time you want to measure the specs of the iron head.  But with woods, if you bend the hosel in the same exact direction, if you then follow the manner of wood head positioning and measurement in the specs gauge used by every company since head specs measurement machines were invented, that bend or change of the angle of the shaft into the head now results in a lie and or face angle change, not a loft change.  Again it is only if you choose to measure the woodhead specs the same way you do an iron head specs that you will see a loft change from a bend of the hosel or a change in the angle of the shaft into the head via an adjustable hosel device.  

Again, I have said before that if these companies wish to now change the way they define and measure loft in wood heads to now be like it has been done on irons, that is their choice and they have the right to do that.  But for companies that choose to make this change in woodhead loft measurement, it is simply my opinion as a 28 yr designer and long time clubfitting researcher that this is not a good thing for the golfers who do need a face angle change along with needing a specific loft to optimize their launch angle and angle of attack.   Adj hose drivers are fine for those golfers who only need a square face angle - as long as they know that to get the loft change they have to hold the face square after each hosel sleeve position change.  

Those here on WRX or elsewhere who do have experience in measuring driver head specs over many years do know that what I am saying is absolutely right, because they are used to knowing how driver head loft, lie and face angle was measured forever leading up to this era of the modern adjustable hosel drivers.  I also realize that for those who continue to doubt, the only way I could probably prove to them I am right is if they were right here next to me in my shop so I could show them the measurement of these heads and the specs that result from both soling the driver as was the norm, to turning the face square each time the sleeve is adjusted.  

Seriously, anyone who finds themselves in Durango, CO at anytime in the future is welcome to stop in and I would be glad to show this to them and I guarantee you that they would walk away with a big "Aha, I understand now".


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#51 AUDuffer

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 01:45 PM

View PostFarrow, on 22 September 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

View PostTMBob, on 22 September 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Also, When Tom mentioned his sleeves, and why they were different then the others, it just flew right by me. Can someone explain the difference please.
There's no difference in the technology. His sales pitch is that he provides a 3 page booklet with all the specs listed out for each method of measurement.

Bitter much?
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#52 TomWishon

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 01:50 PM

View Postcxx, on 20 September 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

I'm sorry but I think that some golfers, Tom included, are clinging to the past by holding to the soled loft measurement for "woods".  It is easier to think of the adjustable woods as we think of irons.  Holding the face angle at address is part of the setup.

It certainly can be seen as being consistent to now say we need to change the way we measure loft on a woodhead to be the same as how we have always done it on irons.  I get that.  But when you do that, you eliminate the face angle as ever being a fitting spec for a golfer who needs misdirection correction and can't or won't get that from taking lessons and practicing to groove the straight hitting swing characteristics.  

I may disagree but I get it when a straight hitting golfer has no sympathy for a golfer who slices or hooks the ball too much.  But for these slicers and hookers who can't or won't take lessons or who don't have the athletic ability to improve their swing to get rid of the slice/hook, for those golfers every clubfitter on the planet with any experience knows that face angle is THE most effective way to reduce a slice or hook and thus help the golfer keep the ball more in play.  And since the vast majority of golfers do have slicing problems, some with hooking problems, to make a change in how the loft of a wood is measured that also eliminates face angle as being a possible fitting spec for game improvement is not good.  

View Postcxx, on 20 September 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Aside from the soled loft, the bendable hosel driver could be bent to any of the positions of the adjustable hosel driver (and some that are outside the range of any particular adjustable hosel arrangement) with equivalent results. It's just a bit harder to do.

Yes, there is no question that few clubmakers yet have a separate bending machine to secure a driver or wood head to allow the hosel to be bent.  The reason of course is I think we are the only company offering drivers, woods and hybrids capable of being easily bent for lie and face angle change so their use of the machine would be limited to only my designs for now.  If they don't get much call to to this, they can't/won't spend another chunk of change to get a second bending machine.   so as it stands now, the clubmakers who want to obtain a driver/wood/hybrid in which they can ask for any face angle with any lie angle on each different loft model of head do ask us to do the bends.  

View Postcxx, on 20 September 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

But the key thing in this that I think many are missing because they don't have the technical experience in design is that you can't get the loft AND lie AND face angle each to a specific spec on the same head with an adj hosel sleeve.  If you SOLE the adj hosel driver, you can get a handful of face angles that are locked together with a handful of lie angles but the loft remains what it is as produced on the head body.  Or if you always hold the adj hosel driver square, you get different loft angles that are locked together with a handful of lie angles, but you get no face angle option because to get the loft/lie change you always have to hold the driver square.  

The face angle/loft is really about delivering the club head square to the ball rather than the look at address.  I think that is the whole idea behind the closed face "draw" driver.  Thats what the slice golfer needs to deliver a more square clubface to the ball. Before the draw driver most had to hood the face closed to get a square hit.  More commonly on golfwrx, we have the quest for the "open faced" driver that helps prevent hooks.

I think the clearest example of the modern driver is the Covert, which has a limited sole that won't interfere the rather large range of loft settings.  I don't know anyone who says that these settings don't work or are too complicated to use without instruction.

You are absolutely right in saying that the way a closed or open face works to reduce a slice or hook is to allow the same swing that brings about the slice or hook to now deliver the face less open or less closed because you are starting with the face more closed or more open than before.  But to get this, the golfer has to sole the head or at least address the ball with the more closed or more open face sitting there behind the ball pointing more left or pointing more right to begin with.  

And yes, you are right in saying that if a golfer has a driver with a face angle that is not helping to reduce his slice or hook, some golfers have figured it out that if they rotate the head more closed they can reduce that slice and if they rotate that head more open they can reduce a hook.  BUt when you do this, you do also change the loft when you rotate that head - lower if you turn the face closed and higher if you turn the face open.   And that may or may not result in the golfer getting his optimal launch angle when he does turn the face more open or more closed to help reduce the hook or slice.

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#53 Farrow

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 01:58 PM

View PostAUDuffer, on 22 September 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

View PostFarrow, on 22 September 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

View PostTMBob, on 22 September 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Also, When Tom mentioned his sleeves, and why they were different then the others, it just flew right by me. Can someone explain the difference please.
There's no difference in the technology. His sales pitch is that he provides a 3 page booklet with all the specs listed out for each method of measurement.

Bitter much?

No bitterness involved. Just answering the question someone asked.

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#54 TomWishon

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 02:17 PM

View PostTMBob, on 22 September 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Some what confused here and have included a few examples of why,

So I buy a fixed hosel driver and it's custom fit to my specs. (lie, loft and fa) It is custom fit this way to help me hit the ball straighter based on my main miss because I cannot square the club up at impact. I start to learn how to square the ball up at impact and now what? Pretty clear, you need a new driver to match your correction.  If this was the same case with an adjustable head, are you saying that I could not just make an adjustment to the orientation of the sleeve to match my swing changes?  

So I buy an adjustable driver in a loft that has worked for me in the past in a fix headed driver. I prefer a open look at address which I could not find in a fixed hosel version so I set the sleeve on open. I aline my grip to match this open position based on the club while being soled, but when I address the ball with my driver, I do not sole the driver to the ground. I grip the driver based on the grip looking square and the face angle looking open. I never soled the head at address.....is the club not open and have a slightly lower loft?

If any golfer is custom fit for the loft, lie and face angle that he needs for each of the three specs, and if the face angle is closed to reduce his slice, if later on he changes his swing to now get rid of the slice moves in the swing, that closed face will now hook or pull the ball.   If this hook or pull is taking the ball more out of play, then yes, he needs to be re fit for a different driver so its loft, lie and face angle now each are set up to best match to the new way he swings the club.   Thing is, this doesn't happen very often in the game (sadly so I will say) because,  1) most golfers either do not have the money or time or commitment to taking the lessons and then doing the work to really re groove the swing with the correct fundamentals.  I wish that were so but that just is the way it has always been.  Only a very small number of golfers end up doing this.   2) here's the bigger one - most golfers who slice the ball do not have the athletic ability to change from the outside in path or open hands position through impact to then deliver the face square with a square face angle driver.  

But yes, for those who slice the ball 15 yds or more and get fit correctly for loft, lie and face angle, if they do improve the swing to achieve a more square path and more square delivery of the face from their release will need to get re fit with a new loft and new face angle to achieve their best results.  

Can this same thing be done with an adj hosel driver?  Sometimes but not every time, and at the least it will be confusing for most to figure out how to do this.   The help of a good clubmaker with experience in measuring head specs would help in the process.   But this is a maybe not a for sure because of the fact that if you use the sleeve to change the face angle, there is only one loft and one lie that is going to go along with that face angle because the mechanics of the sleeve dictate these specs are locked together and cannot be had independently of each other.  

So let's say as an example that the golfer did slice the ball and someone with knowledge got him set up with his adj hosel driver to use the sleeve to put it into a closed face angle position and to tell the golfer to always sole the driver that way or hold it with that face closed to reduce his slice.  At that closed face angle, there is one loft on the head only.  And let;s say that loft with that face angle happened to be good for the golfer for his best launch angle for his speed and angle of attack.   Now let's say the golfer takes lessons, works on his swing, and does achieve a more square path and face delivery in his swing.   If he then just rotates and holds the face square, the loft is now higher and probably doesn't fit his swing.   or if he has the hosel adjusted so that it now is square when soled, whether he gets the right loft after this then is a tossup that depends on whether he was soling the driver when its adapter was rotated so the soled position was a closed face or whether he was holding the face closed.

Either way, it is far more of a trial and experimentation guessing game with the adj hosel driver because of the simple fact that the loft, lie and face angle are locked together to each other with no ability for each to be changed separate of each other.  

View PostTMBob, on 22 September 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Also, When Tom mentioned his sleeves, and why they were different then the others, it just flew right by me. Can someone explain the difference please.

After watching the video, I am interested in getting fit for a custom fixed head mainly because of lie angle. ( I need a flatter lie, or at least I think so as most of the newer heads seem to have a rocker sole that when I address it, the toe is sitting very high up. Or I need to try a much shorter shaft which Tom's charts agrees with)

Seems to me the biggest effect on face angle and loft are the players hands at impact and how they grip the shaft, followed by how they swing at the ball and how their eyes perceive what a square face is.

This thread make me want to pull out my bent open TM Tour SQ again....no more adjustable heads for me! Oh wait....that means no more shaft Ho'ing.  

On my adjustable driver, there are a few differences from the others.   Engineering wise, I made the sleeve so that when the head is soled to get the lie and face angle changes, the range in open to closed and range in upright to flat are within a more narrow range.   For example, the face angle ranges from 3 hook to 3 open and the lie locked together with that ranges from 60.25 to 56.  Other adjustables when soled in each different hosel sleeve position have much wider swings in face angle and lie than that - with many being from 6 to 7 open to 2 to 3 closed.  

But a big thing with my adj hosel driver is simply the fact that with each head comes a brochure that has separate spec charts to tell you what loft, lie and face angle you get for each of the 8 sleeve positions for whether the head is soled or whether the head is held square behind the ball.  If you sole the driver, there is one chart that tells you the loft stays what it is on the head model (we offer a 9.5 and 11 versions) and tells you what the lie and face angle change are for each different sleeve position.

Then there are two other charts that tell you what the loft and lie change is for each of the two models when you hold the face square in the address position.

the reason this is different is because I know of none of the other companies that clearly say "this is the loft, this is the lie, this is the face angle when you sole the head, and this is the loft, this is the lie, this is the face angle when you hold the head square."   I just wanted to be sure we were crystal clear in telling people what each of the three specs are for the two different ways one could use the driver, soled or held square.  

Hope this helps,
TOM

24

#55 TomWishon

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 02:31 PM

View PostFarrow, on 22 September 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:


There's no difference in the technology. His sales pitch is that he provides a 3 page booklet with all the specs listed out for each method of measurement.

First off, see my post #54 in this thread to learn what the booklet is for and why it puts a different, more clear approach on us trying to tell the clubmakers and golfers "this is the loft, this is the lie, this is the face angle when you sole the head, and this is the loft, this is the lie, this is the face angle when you hold the head square."   To my knowledge none of the other companies offering an adj hosel driver clearly state what each of the three specs is for each position for the two different ways a golfer might address the ball.   Most just talk about loft and don;t say anything about soled vs held square position of use.  Some talk a little about lie or face angle but don't clearly state X number of degrees up or flat or open or closed.  So we're just trying to be as crystal clear with every spec in every possible manner of use for every hosel position so people will know precisely what each spec is.

As to your comment that the video is a "sales pitch"  This video is the start of us beginning to offer a Wishon Golf Video magazine for our clubmaker customers.  So yes, it is aimed at our direct clubmaker market to both explain everything about adjustable hosel drivers to better educate them, and it is done to explain how our approach of the bendable hosel on drivers and woods can be better for achieving a wider range of loft, lie and face angle specs for a golfer than can be had with any adjustable hosel driver, including ours.

In a perfect world, when we do a video magazine like this for our clubmaker market, I would love to have in house server capability so we would not have to put it up on You Tube or any other video sharing service site.  If we had that type of in house server capacity then videos like this that we created chiefly for our clubmaker customers would only see it and learn from it and hear our technical discussions.  But we don't have that kind of in house server capacity to hold up to possibly thousands of simultaneous hits so we have to put our clubmaker information up on You Tube - which means of course every one can see it.   Which of course is fine, but as we produce these Wishon Golf video magazine segments to educate our clubmakers and also tell them about our models, when non clubmakers see them for sure they can take the attitude that it is a sales pitch.  But the only "sales pitch" in this is simply a fact that ANY company that would choose to do a bendable hosel driver/wood will be able to offer a wider range of the three key specs of loft, lie and face angle and done all independent of each other.   No adj hosel driver can do that, not even mine and we freely admit that simply in the effort to get the facts and truths out about fitting technology for golfers.  


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#56 tmcbigblue

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 03:25 PM

What would the loft of my bio cell+ be in the 8.5 draw setting soling the club showing the face with the closed face?  Thanks for the great video Tom!  Love reading your stuff and I look forward to trying some of your great designs.

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#57 rybo

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 03:55 PM

Tom,

Since your perspective on loft is such that the club must be measured from the soled position, then how do these bendable hosel drivers adjust loft?  You may be able to hand pick another loft but surely it can not be bent to change loft, only face angle and lie can bent.  Lets say I have a 9*-919THI and it has a 0* face angle, 59* lie angle and 9* of loft.  It is determined that the lie angle and face angle are producing the desired start direction and ball flight curvature, however the launch is a little low.  There is no way this head can be bent to add loft, only the lie and face angle can be adjusted.


Exactly how accurate is this brochure for the adjustable driver?  There has to be manufacturing tolerances, and it looks to be the standard +1/-1 loft.  So unless every head is measured for loft and then is matched with a brochure that has a the correct loft, the information in the 939AHT brochure is only as accurate as the manufacturing tolerances.

I was in Colorado this summer just didn't have the time to get to Durango, but I will.

Edit: Cleaned up a sentence.

Edited by rybo, 22 September 2014 - 04:15 PM.


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#58 cxx

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 04:41 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 22 September 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

View Postcxx, on 20 September 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

I'm sorry but I think that some golfers, Tom included, are clinging to the past by holding to the soled loft measurement for "woods".  It is easier to think of the adjustable woods as we think of irons.  Holding the face angle at address is part of the setup.

It certainly can be seen as being consistent to now say we need to change the way we measure loft on a woodhead to be the same as how we have always done it on irons.  I get that.  But when you do that, you eliminate the face angle as ever being a fitting spec for a golfer who needs misdirection correction and can't or won't get that from taking lessons and practicing to groove the straight hitting swing characteristics.  

I may disagree but I get it when a straight hitting golfer has no sympathy for a golfer who slices or hooks the ball too much.  But for these slicers and hookers who can't or won't take lessons or who don't have the athletic ability to improve their swing to get rid of the slice/hook, for those golfers every clubfitter on the planet with any experience knows that face angle is THE most effective way to reduce a slice or hook and thus help the golfer keep the ball more in play.  And since the vast majority of golfers do have slicing problems, some with hooking problems, to make a change in how the loft of a wood is measured that also eliminates face angle as being a possible fitting spec for game improvement is not good.  

View Postcxx, on 20 September 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Aside from the soled loft, the bendable hosel driver could be bent to any of the positions of the adjustable hosel driver (and some that are outside the range of any particular adjustable hosel arrangement) with equivalent results. It's just a bit harder to do.

Yes, there is no question that few clubmakers yet have a separate bending machine to secure a driver or wood head to allow the hosel to be bent.  The reason of course is I think we are the only company offering drivers, woods and hybrids capable of being easily bent for lie and face angle change so their use of the machine would be limited to only my designs for now.  If they don't get much call to to this, they can't/won't spend another chunk of change to get a second bending machine.   so as it stands now, the clubmakers who want to obtain a driver/wood/hybrid in which they can ask for any face angle with any lie angle on each different loft model of head do ask us to do the bends.  

View Postcxx, on 20 September 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

But the key thing in this that I think many are missing because they don't have the technical experience in design is that you can't get the loft AND lie AND face angle each to a specific spec on the same head with an adj hosel sleeve.  If you SOLE the adj hosel driver, you can get a handful of face angles that are locked together with a handful of lie angles but the loft remains what it is as produced on the head body.  Or if you always hold the adj hosel driver square, you get different loft angles that are locked together with a handful of lie angles, but you get no face angle option because to get the loft/lie change you always have to hold the driver square.  

The face angle/loft is really about delivering the club head square to the ball rather than the look at address.  I think that is the whole idea behind the closed face "draw" driver.  Thats what the slice golfer needs to deliver a more square clubface to the ball. Before the draw driver most had to hood the face closed to get a square hit.  More commonly on golfwrx, we have the quest for the "open faced" driver that helps prevent hooks.

I think the clearest example of the modern driver is the Covert, which has a limited sole that won't interfere the rather large range of loft settings.  I don't know anyone who says that these settings don't work or are too complicated to use without instruction.

You are absolutely right in saying that the way a closed or open face works to reduce a slice or hook is to allow the same swing that brings about the slice or hook to now deliver the face less open or less closed because you are starting with the face more closed or more open than before.  But to get this, the golfer has to sole the head or at least address the ball with the more closed or more open face sitting there behind the ball pointing more left or pointing more right to begin with.  

And yes, you are right in saying that if a golfer has a driver with a face angle that is not helping to reduce his slice or hook, some golfers have figured it out that if they rotate the head more closed they can reduce that slice and if they rotate that head more open they can reduce a hook.  BUt when you do this, you do also change the loft when you rotate that head - lower if you turn the face closed and higher if you turn the face open.   And that may or may not result in the golfer getting his optimal launch angle when he does turn the face more open or more closed to help reduce the hook or slice.


Even though I think the iron equivalent perspective is a good one, I do think there is a little more to it than just the shaft/face angle, especially when we are talking about drivers that were not designed for the adjustable hosel.  Some of the new drivers are shaped to look good at address in a variety of adjustments.  I guess they are rounder.  I've had some non-adjustable drivers that had a very specific orientation and seemed to work well only in that orientation.

The thing about the adjustable hosel drivers for hookers and slicers is that they don't have to get a draw driver or whatever the open faced equivalent would be.  They can play the same clubs as everyone else. There was a bit of stigma associated with offset or draw drivers even though they worked great for some players. Some people who needed them wouldn't get them.

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#59 TomWishon

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 05:39 PM

View Postrybo, on 22 September 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

Tom,

Since your perspective on loft is such that the club must be measured from the soled position, then how do these bendable hosel drivers adjust loft?  You may be able to hand pick another loft but surely it can not be bent to change loft, only face angle and lie can bent.  Lets say I have a 9*-919THI and it has a 0* face angle, 59* lie angle and 9* of loft.  It is determined that the lie angle and face angle are producing the desired start direction and ball flight curvature, however the launch is a little low.  There is no way this head can be bent to add loft, only the lie and face angle can be adjusted.


Exactly how accurate is this brochure for the adjustable driver?  There has to be manufacturing tolerances, and it looks to be the standard +1/-1 loft.  So unless every head is measured for loft and then is matched with a brochure that has a the correct loft, the information in the 939AHT brochure is only as accurate as the manufacturing tolerances.

I was in Colorado this summer just didn't have the time to get to Durango, but I will.


The bendable hosel driver or wood or hybrid do NOT change loft from the bend, as long as the head is soled.  the bend only changes lie or loft based on the direction you bend the hosel.   So when we do hand select for loft, we have to get a whole box of the same head model and start measuring each one until we find the loft due to +/- tolerance that the clubmaker wants.  Once that is found, then we can bend the hosel if he also wants a specific face angle or lie or both on the same head.  

So yes, with normal loft tolerances of +/-1, +1/2 / -1 or +1 / - 1/2 on the heads, we can only accept hand select picks for lofts within each head model's tolerance for loft.  And even then sometimes we have to sort through 20, 30, 40 heads of the same model to find that loft the clubmaker wants that is different than the head model's designed loft spec.    

But with the 919 drivers, this is why I designed 4 different loft versions of 9, 11, 13, 15.5.  With the 4 models and with the + 1/2 / - 1 tolerance on loft, with enough time we can find any loft from 8 up to 16 within these 4 different models.  so loft is a hand select thing.  Then once we find the loft the clubmaker wants, if he also wants a different face angle and or a different lie angle, we then can bend the head to get those specs.  Hence why we can offer loft, lie and face angle independently of each other.   Yes, that can take a little more time but we do take it seriously to try our best to deliver all specs to what the clubmaker wants for his golfers.  

So in your example, if you have this 9* loft with 59* lie and 0* face angle and you feel the face angle and lie are good but the launch is too low, we would not bend it for loft because you can't do that while still soling the head to get the 0 face with 59* lie.  What we would do is to hand select another head with a higher loft as per what you think you would need to get the ball up more as you wish to do, and then set the face angle at 0 and lie at 59 to go with that other driver with more loft.   Thus you get the two specs you are happy with to stay exactly the same and the loft is increased by virtue of hand selecting a model with higher loft than 9.  

Yes for sure there are +/- tolerances on our adjustable driver so the specs listed on the brochure sent with each of these heads does list the design specs for the head + each hosel position.  But the hosel sleeves are really +/-0 on their manufacture because they are all CNC machined, so any tolerance differences are from the head body's production so the specs on the brochure will tend to only run different when the head body specs are in the tolerance zone of + 1/2 / -1/2 for this head.   Pretty darn close.  but we will do hand select for the head body of the adjustable driver so if a clubmaker wants it dead on the loft and face angle and lie spec for the body of the head, we do that for the clubmakers who ask.   Reason that the body of the 939AHT is +1/2 / -1/2 is because of two reasons -  1) this is a true bar forged body, not a plate formed head.  Done with double forging dies for each body part and then robotically welded.  So these things bring the normal tolerance down lower than usual on a driver head.   2) I do have the foundry measure every spec on the head and report those to me with each head marked.  That I do pay more for and it is something that I spent tons of hours triple checking with the foundry during pre production work so they are exactly on the same page as me for how to fixture the heads for spec measurements so they and I never disagree on these specs.  But also because this is a much more expensive head, I do check every one of these that comes into the warehouse.   So yes, the 939 adjustable can have a slight tolerance difference, but it is as small as it can possibly be.

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#60 Farrow

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 05:46 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 22 September 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

View PostFarrow, on 22 September 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:


There's no difference in the technology. His sales pitch is that he provides a 3 page booklet with all the specs listed out for each method of measurement.

First off, see my post #54 in this thread to learn what the booklet is for and why it puts a different, more clear approach on us trying to tell the clubmakers and golfers "this is the loft, this is the lie, this is the face angle when you sole the head, and this is the loft, this is the lie, this is the face angle when you hold the head square."   To my knowledge none of the other companies offering an adj hosel driver clearly state what each of the three specs is for each position for the two different ways a golfer might address the ball.   Most just talk about loft and don;t say anything about soled vs held square position of use.  Some talk a little about lie or face angle but don't clearly state X number of degrees up or flat or open or closed.  So we're just trying to be as crystal clear with every spec in every possible manner of use for every hosel position so people will know precisely what each spec is.

As to your comment that the video is a "sales pitch"  This video is the start of us beginning to offer a Wishon Golf Video magazine for our clubmaker customers.  So yes, it is aimed at our direct clubmaker market to both explain everything about adjustable hosel drivers to better educate them, and it is done to explain how our approach of the bendable hosel on drivers and woods can be better for achieving a wider range of loft, lie and face angle specs for a golfer than can be had with any adjustable hosel driver, including ours.

In a perfect world, when we do a video magazine like this for our clubmaker market, I would love to have in house server capability so we would not have to put it up on You Tube or any other video sharing service site.  If we had that type of in house server capacity then videos like this that we created chiefly for our clubmaker customers would only see it and learn from it and hear our technical discussions.  But we don't have that kind of in house server capacity to hold up to possibly thousands of simultaneous hits so we have to put our clubmaker information up on You Tube - which means of course every one can see it.   Which of course is fine, but as we produce these Wishon Golf video magazine segments to educate our clubmakers and also tell them about our models, when non clubmakers see them for sure they can take the attitude that it is a sales pitch.  But the only "sales pitch" in this is simply a fact that ANY company that would choose to do a bendable hosel driver/wood will be able to offer a wider range of the three key specs of loft, lie and face angle and done all independent of each other.   No adj hosel driver can do that, not even mine and we freely admit that simply in the effort to get the facts and truths out about fitting technology for golfers.  

Again, the modern adjustable driver gives the average golfer more options for a custom fit. Sure you might be able to bend your fixed shaft head to some in between number, but really you're talking about fractions of a degree at that point. The huge brick wall standing in front of the fixed hosel club is that exclusivity of getting it customized. There are very few shops out there with the proper equipment to bend a fixed hosel driver, fairway, or hybrid, and just as small a number of qualified people to do the work.

The adjustable hosel club brings custom fitting into the hands of the masses and there's no way you're going to be able to get custom setup clubs into the hands of as many golfers with a fixed hosel club. It's just impractical.


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