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#1 User is offline   kklick 

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 10:00 AM

Ok here's the story. This happened yesterday at a member guest event at a local country club. It was a stroke play format.

Player A hits his second shot into a greenside bunker on a par 5. Player B (opponent) also hits his second shot into the same greenside bunker without player A noticing the shot.

Player A goes up and hits his ball out of the bunker. While raking the bunker he sees another ball in the bunker. Not knowing it was player B's ball he picks it up to identify the ball and make sure he didn't paly the wrong ball. It was not his ball so he replaced it back in the bunker.

So what rule would apply here?

Quote

12-2 Identifying Ball
The responsibility for playing the proper ball rests with the player. Each player should put an identification mark on his ball.
Except in a hazard, if a player has reason to believe a ball is his, he may lift the ball without penalty to identify it.
Before lifting the ball, the player must announce his intention to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play and mark the position of the ball. He may then lift the ball and identify it provided that he gives his opponent, marker or fellow-competitor an opportunity to observe the lifting and replacement. The ball must not be cleaned beyond the extent necessary for identification when lifted under Rule 12-2. If the player fails to comply with all or any part of this procedure, or if he lifts his ball for identification in a hazard, he incurs a penalty of one stroke.
If the lifted ball is the player’s ball he must replace it. If he fails to do so, he incurs the general penalty for a breach of Rule 12-2, but there is no additional penalty under this Rule.
*Penalty for Breach of Rule 12-2:
Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.
*If a player incurs the general penalty for a breach of Rule 12-2, there is no additional penalty under this Rule.


A one stroke penalty for lifting a ball in a hazard?

Or

Quote

Rule 18. Ball at Rest Moved
18-3 By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play
a. During Search
If, during search for a player’s ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment moves the ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.
b. Other Than During Search
If, other than during search for a player’s ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment moves the ball, touches it purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided in the Rules, the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.
(Playing a wrong ball — see Rule 15-3.)
(Ball moved in measuring — see Rule 18-6.)


One stroke penalty under rule 18?

Obviously he should have just went to the green and checked the ball there to see if it was his. If not then he could have replayed the shot with no penalty since he was hitting from a hazard under rule 15-3.

Quote

15-3 Wrong Ball
a. Match Play
If a player makes a stroke at a wrong ball that is not in a hazard, he loses the hole.
There is no penalty if a player makes a stroke at a wrong ball in a hazard. Any strokes made at a wrong ball in a hazard do not count in the player’s score.
If the wrong ball belongs to another player, its owner must place a ball on the spot from which the wrong ball was first played.
If the player and opponent exchange balls during the play of a hole, the first to make a stroke at a wrong ball that is not in a hazard, loses the hole; when this cannot be determined, the hole must be played out with the balls exchanged.


Can anyone help me out here on what the proper ruling would have been?
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#2 User is offline   kittart 

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 10:34 AM

I think the 2 shot penalty referred to in 12-2 would be for playing the wrong ball rather than for checking incorectly.
I don't know the gospel answer to your question though. Someone will!
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#3 User is offline   oneplanedan 

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 10:56 AM

I have sent your ? to USGA they will e-mail me a response.
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#4 User is offline   banistr 

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 11:00 AM

As long as he hit the correct ball..ball is replaced and NO penalty.
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#5 User is offline   kklick 

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 11:18 AM

View Postkittart, on Jul 23 2007, 11:34 AM, said:

I think the 2 shot penalty referred to in 12-2 would be for playing the wrong ball rather than for checking incorectly.
I don't know the gospel answer to your question though. Someone will!


I think you're right on that. If he played the wrong ball and didn't correct it that would be a 2 stroke penaly under rule 12-2. But rule 15-3 would apply since they were in a hazard. I think identifying the ball incorrectly would result in a one stroke penalty. At least thats how I read that rule.

View Postoneplanedan, on Jul 23 2007, 11:56 AM, said:

I have sent your ? to USGA they will e-mail me a response.



Thanks. I should have thought of that. I'll be interested to hear their reply.


View Postbanistr, on Jul 23 2007, 12:00 PM, said:

As long as he hit the correct ball..ball is replaced and NO penalty.


Do you have a rule to back that up?? Rule 12-2 states

Quote

or if he lifts his ball for identification in a hazard, he incurs a penalty of one stroke.
That seems pretty cut and dry. Lift a ball in a hazard and its a one stroke penalty. I assume thats why rule 15-3 is there. No penalty for playing the wrong ball out of a hazard. If you can't identify the ball you can't be sure its yours but you still have to play it.
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#6 User is offline   oneplanedan 

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 11:21 AM

Still waiting on word from USGA....but I think that there has to be some penalty for lifting ball without marking spot with tee or something I too am interested in what USGA will say
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#7 User is offline   kklick 

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 11:34 AM

Yeah I definitely think there should be a penalty for lifting the ball. He didn't let his partner or opponent know he was picking up the ball and thats the first part of identifying a ball. I also don't think you are allowed to lift a ball in a hazard period. Not even for identification. I may be missing something though so I'm not 100% sure.
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#8 User is offline   smithjohnjr 

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 12:36 PM

I am not sure he is penalized at all. If and only if he played the correct ball, then and it did not stay in the hazard, then his ball is in play, not in the hazard and he can do what he wants to. he can roll in it, pick up balls, ground his club take practice swings whatever he wants to except hit balls.


Now the question it how to approach him picking up his competitors ball. That is the breach, in the way I read it. That would be the rule I would think that would apply. What is the penalty for touching anothers ball ( sounds dirtier than it is )
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#9 User is offline   oneplanedan 

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 08:28 AM

The USGA responded " when player A lifted player B's ball they incurred a one stroke penalty 18-3b(Ball at Rest Moved by Opponent, Caddie, or Equipment in match play)and the ball must be replaced
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#10 User is offline   kklick 

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 09:16 PM

View Postoneplanedan, on Jul 26 2007, 09:28 AM, said:

The USGA responded " when player A lifted player B's ball they incurred a one stroke penalty 18-3b(Ball at Rest Moved by Opponent, Caddie, or Equipment in match play)and the ball must be replaced



Thanks. That's pretty much how I would have called it after reading all the rules.
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