[nandoal]

Anyone ever sneak on a TOP 100 golf course or an exclusive private track? Anyone have any stories without getting yourself or anyone else indicted?

Yes I've done it. Actually yesterday a friend and I snuck on Oakmont and played 7 holes (Oakmont CC is bisected by the PA turnpike) the 7 farthest away from the clubhouse. #3-8 and played #2 on the way back to the car. It was amazing, as the grandstands were still up. The greens very fast, the rough was deep. An amazing amazing course!

Any one have any tips to not getting caught? Which courses are easy to get on either by sneaking on or a bride of the caddymaster like I've heard is done at Shinnecock? And what do/did you say If confronted?

To me It's ONLY golf. I replace my divots and fix a few extra balls marks on all greens.

And like I told my friend to me the #1 is key is, Just act like you belong there.

[animalistic]

[quote name='nandoal' date='Jul 10 2007, 11:23 PM' post='631278']
Anyone ever sneak on a TOP 100 golf course or an exclusive private track? Anyone have any stories without getting yourself or anyone else indicted?

Yes I've done it. Actually yesterday a friend and I snuck on Oakmont and played 7 holes (Oakmont CC is bisected by the PA turnpike) the 7 farthest away from the clubhouse. #3-8 and played #2 on the way back to the car. It was amazing, as the grandstands were still up. The greens very fast, the rough was deep. An amazing amazing course!

Any one have any tips to not getting caught? Which courses are easy to get on either by sneaking on or a bride of the caddymaster like I've heard is done at Shinnecock? And what do/did you say If confronted?

To me It's ONLY golf. I replace my divots and fix a few extra balls marks on all greens.

And like I told my friend to me the #1 is key is, Just act like you belong there.
[/q
i dont agree with that

[webmstrk9]

No, and what you've done is considered stealing.

[2DOWN3TOGO]

That's crazy and I wouldn't do it but if I did I wouldn't post it in a public forum. I think it's called trespassing and you can go to jail.

[justaman5]

that is dishonest, sorry to say that. but if u play somewhere and dont pay. its basically just stealing. i wouldnt brag about it.

[j0npeterson]

there was an article in golf digest i think a couple years ago about some guy who's snuck onto a bunch of the top 100 tracks.

i forget.. i'm sure someone remembers though.

[ERuhling]

I live close to Oakmont and I've never done it but my friends have sneaked onto to Oakmont and played on Mondays. They said that a lot of people do it and that no one cares too much. They just ask you not to do it again.

[pacdunk412]

nandoal, on Jul 10 2007, 05:23 PM, said:

Anyone ever sneak on a TOP 100 golf course or an exclusive private track? Anyone have any stories without getting yourself or anyone else indicted?

Yes I've done it. Actually yesterday a friend and I snuck on Oakmont and played 7 holes (Oakmont CC is bisected by the PA turnpike) the 7 farthest away from the clubhouse. #3-8 and played #2 on the way back to the car. It was amazing, as the grandstands were still up. The greens very fast, the rough was deep. An amazing amazing course!

Any one have any tips to not getting caught? Which courses are easy to get on either by sneaking on or a bride of the caddymaster like I've heard is done at Shinnecock? And what do/did you say If confronted?

To me It's ONLY golf. I replace my divots and fix a few extra balls marks on all greens.

And like I told my friend to me the #1 is key is, Just act like you belong there.

yea...that is trespassing and u can probably get in trouble for that but im a kid and i kinda have to say kudos to u lol
thats gotta be tought to pull off and thats gotta be pretty cool haha
i dont think that i would ever do that..ive only done it once at a semi-private course but only played 7

[Coach]

Can one of the moderators pull this thread?

Thanks

[MKGolfer]

There's people out there trying to make a living on maintaining these golf courses... thus the green fees. If you can't afford to pay, don't play. That's just rude and extremely GHETTO.

[j0npeterson]

It's not exactly ethical and personally I don't care much when I see people do it -- as long as they keep pace. But ethics aside, I'd jump at the chance to get onto Cypress or Pine Valley without any repercussions.

As far as the "trying to making a living" argument, the course isn't losing anything if you're sneaking on. They're just not making anything -- and wouldn't have to begin with, because they weren't able to play the course in the first place. If they could've paid to get on the course, they would have. Moot point.

This isn't exactly like sneaking onto the daily fee or local muni.

[wedgetoafoot]

While I don't agree with sneaking onto a course. I have to say that there is no way sneaking onto a course puts the owner or membership at some type of financial disadvantage. This would only happen if enough people who would have paid to play there started sneaking on and cannibalizing the market for the golf course. They are not missing out on tee times because someone sneaks on during some off peak time, unless that person would have paid otherwise. I guess it could hurt the reputation of a private club, but this is not news worthy, so who cares. If you must do it, keep it to yourself because that is like bragging to a bunch of accountants that you didn't pay your taxes.

Ok above poster and I were typing at the same time...anyway, I second his opinion.

[Trxjw]

I've never snuck onto a course to play it.. don't think it would be worth it IMO.

However, I grew up on the South Fork of Long Island and we played Southampton HS during my varsity golf career. Their home course is Southampton CC which is right next door to Shinnecock and on the 4th green / 5th tee you get a great look at the famed course. I couldn't resist teeing up a ball and hitting at the green that was closest to us (the 1st or 10th, I'm not 100% on the course layout). I don't think I made it. Probably a few yards more than I had in the bag.

[italianstallion]

Tenementrock, on Jul 10 2007, 11:34 PM, said:

wedgetoafoot, on Jul 10 2007, 09:38 PM, said:

While I don't agree with sneaking onto a course. I have to say that there is no way sneaking onto a course puts the owner or membership at some type of financial disadvantage. This would only happen if enough people who would have paid to play there started sneaking on and cannibalizing the market for the golf course. They are not missing out on tee times because someone sneaks on during some off peak time, unless that person would have paid otherwise. I guess it could hurt the reputation of a private club, but this is not news worthy, so who cares. If you must do it, keep it to yourself because that is like bragging to a bunch of accountants that you didn't pay your taxes.

Ok above poster and I were typing at the same time...anyway, I second his opinion.

Besides that, there's the direct maintenance cost incurred by everyone who hits shots on that course. You take divots, step all over the greens, leave broken tee bits on tee boxes, etc.

Exactly what I was going to say!

I work at a course, and I bust people all the time who try to sneak out on hole 1 after getting off the 18th green. We don't have starters there all day, but many people think that the first tee (although a good distance from the proshop) is never watched. However, you can ask the many groups I've had to confront, it surely is. Call me a rat, but the way I see it is they are attempting to take advantage of not only the course and it's owner, but me and my fellow employees.

Easier to sneak onto the back portion of the course like you guys did, but that is stealing in my mind. You may think your actions are harmless because it was just you and a friend. However, imagine if 1000 golfers snuck onto those holes every year. That's extra foot traffic, and over 5000 extra divots and ball marks, which can really add up.

There's this notion that all golf courses are huge profit machines. While owners do pretty good, theres also alot of money that goes into day to day operations and upkeep of the course.

Again, pretty smart idea to post your adventures in fence hopping for the world to see (end sarcasm)

[zojo]

While the majority attitude towards this topic is apparently one of disgust, I still find that these stories are intriguing to read and sometimes humorous. If someone has a story about how they have already snuck onto a golf course, I don't see any way a person on this forum is going to change what already happened, so you might as well continue to tell these stories because some other people might enjoy reading them

[drpino]

second the above...post away with the stories!!!

[Furrankee]

Tiger Woods snuck on. Phil Mickelson snuck on. J.J. Henry snuck on. Countless ther PGA pros have also.

It doesn't mean it's right. It just means that it happens.

Those that tell you "that is trepassing and that is a no - no" are the same people that get silently pissed if you mark your ball with a tee.

I am a 3+ handi. I pay for all my green fees. I replace divots, play the ball as it lies, fix more than a handful of ball marks, pick leaves and loose impediments, clear away sand, play honors golf, socialize and really get to know the player I'm with. And you know what? I was the same way when I playing at a 12+ handicap.

But even I sneak on once in a while. Why? Because it's easy to do at my course. Those golfers in here that wag their finger at FREE GOLF probably play on a course where every hole is in some way difficult to go on without interrupting other golfers. They probably have seen kids sneak on and ruin their experience on the golf course that day. Life happens. We don't fully stop at stop signs. We exceed the speed limit. Short change on tips. Buy off-campus exams.

[brian2kgt]

furrankee, on Jul 11 2007, 01:17 AM, said:

Tiger Woods snuck on. Phil Mickelson snuck on. J.J. Henry snuck on. Countless ther PGA pros have also.

It doesn't mean it's right. It just means that it happens. So tell your stories.

Those that tell you "that is trepassing and that is a no - no" are the same people that get silently pissed if you mark your ball with a tee.

I am a 3+ handi. I pay for all my green fees. I replace divots, play the ball as it lies, fix more than a handful of ball marks, pick leaves and loose impediments, clear away sand, play honors golf, socialize and really get to know the player I'm with. And you know what? I was the same way when I playing at a 12+ handicap.

But even I sneak on once in a while. Why? Because it's easy to do at my course. Some of the golfers in here that wag their finger probably play on a course where every hole is in some way difficult to go on without interrupting other golfers. You just don't understand.

......

nandoal, on Jul 10 2007, 06:23 PM, said:

Anyone ever sneak on a TOP 100 golf course or an exclusive private track? Anyone have any stories without getting yourself or anyone else indicted?

Yes I've done it. Actually yesterday a friend and I snuck on Oakmont and played 7 holes (Oakmont CC is bisected by the PA turnpike) the 7 farthest away from the clubhouse. #3-8 and played #2 on the way back to the car. It was amazing, as the grandstands were still up. The greens very fast, the rough was deep. An amazing amazing course!

Any one have any tips to not getting caught? Which courses are easy to get on either by sneaking on or a bride of the caddymaster like I've heard is done at Shinnecock? And what do/did you say If confronted?

To me It's ONLY golf. I replace my divots and fix a few extra balls marks on all greens.

And like I told my friend to me the #1 is key is, Just act like you belong there.

Sharing stories is one thing but asking for tips on how not to get caught and asking where the best places to sneak on is a little much. And whatever way you want to justify it, it is still illegal. Fixing a few extra ball marks on the greens doesn't make it any better.

[FlyFish]

The moral relativism comes into play regarding motive. Sneaking onto a public course to avoid paying green fees is indeed stealing. However, there is some mystique to sneaking onto a private course - not because you don't want to pay green fees - but because of it's exclusivity.

I wouldn't pull a stunt like that as an adult. The closest that I've come is being let onto a private course for free because I knew somebody in the pro shop. The original poster is right - just dress and act the part and everyone else assumes you are member.

[j0npeterson]

hmm. now that i think about it, if i was given the right opportunity, i would sneak onto a select group of courses.

but believe me, i would feel terrible for sneaking onto augusta and cypress. i don't know what i would do with myself. lol...

i do find it a little odd more people wouldn't take the opportunity if the risk was minimal.

[nikeblades]

so...lets hear some more stories about sneaking on. thats what the topics about, not about how some people cry about it. if i snuck on to a great golf course, hell yea i would brag about it, u would be a lil beezy (i figured i cant cuss on here so take a guess) if u didnt.

[jonnyb03]

INTEGRITY comes to mind. But you know what it has no effect on my life and givin the chance i would do it to. It is not hurting the course's profit no one that works there will miss a meal because of it you know why? They are.. now heres the key phrase "PRIVATE CLUBS" that means people pay annual dues not daily. Plus its not like he stole a hot dog and soda from the club house which would set the club back maybe $.50 but hey. Keep on keepin on you rebels.

jonnyb

[Charlie_Foxtrot]

Coach, on Jul 10 2007, 05:57 PM, said:

Can one of the moderators pull this thread?

Thanks

[webmstrk9]

People who state they have no impact on the course while sneaking on. Well, anytime you take a divot, you impact the ground. Anytime your ball lands on the green and makes a pitch mark. Even though you think you leave the course in the same shape that you snuck on, it is never the same after you leave.

[Bobcat43]

I used to grab 3-4 clubs and ride my 10 speed down the road 2 miles to our local CC. I'd stash the bike in the woods and skip around in the late evening play whatever shots I could without getting caught. Keep in mind I was between 9-13 years old. That doesn't make it right.

But this was what my summer vacations were based around. Both my parents worked and rarely had time to take me to a course. I would periodically get caught by the assistant pro. He was always trying to intimidate us but it didn't work. My parents found out and suggested I get a job as a caddy (and range picker!) at the club (after I was allowed out of the yard again). That way I could play legit on Mondays. Well, needless to say there wasn't much demand for a caddy at the club (damn carts!). But I would always get a loop a couple times a week from 2 of the top women at the club. Both were scratch and they took it upon themseves to teach me a lot about the game.

Got to high school and our home matches were played at the CC and I had a huge advantage against my teammates and other players. But the cool part of the story is that about 15 years after the last time I was caught I ran into the assistant pro at a very upscale driving range (more of a learning center, if you will) near my then new home (in another part of the state). He didn't remember me until I refreshed his memory. Anyways I ended up taking some lessons from him and he really helped my game.

So while I don't think it right to trespass, I be a hippocrit if I just damned the whole thing. And honestly if sneaking a few holes when I was 12 was the worst thing I did (it wasn't by the way), well then that's better then sitting in front of the tv for 16 hours a day. That small bit of law breaking probably helped me become the person I am today. I certainly have more respect for this great game because of it (in a round about way).

[muxi87]

I grew up in a single family home with a Dad that had to work pretty much all day every day to provide for my brother and I...we weren't poor or anything by any means--we actually lived in a nice neighborhood and has nice stuff, but that lifestyle was started when my parents were together, so he worked extra hard and overtime to keep us from having to change lifestyles...

...Okay, on to the point...

I decided that I wanted to take up golf...but as we all know, golf is a VERY EXPENSIVE sport--even in the lowest form such as off brand clubs, driving range, and daily fee run down courses. There's ABSOLUTELY no way I wouldn't been able to learn the game and become the golfer I am today without sneaking on to the local country club EVERY SINGLE MONDAY (rain or shine I was there). I was fortunate enough to get to know the owner of the local driving range, so I picked balls to be able to hit for free, but there's just a lot of golf you can't learn on a range--you have to get out on the course...so I snuck on. I didn't mean any harm, I fixed TONS of ballmarks (both mine and probably every other one that was made that week), left the course as I found it (minus a few balls in the woods as I'd walk the woods to supply myself with balls to play with), and learned the game there.

To this day, I've never played an honest round at that course...I've moved to another city, and am a member of a country club there, but wherever I am, when the conversation comes up about my hometown and the country club there, I can carry on a conversation about the course and how it played because of all those rounds. Who knows, maybe someday I'll make it big in life or golf, and I'll go to the club, find my honest way on, and possibly even share my story with the pro there...hmmm...maybe not

[cwglum]

Love to hear stories like this. Provided that you respected the course as you mentioned, regret nothing and enjoy the fact that you got to play a few holes out there. As noted above, many tour players and senior tour players can probably recount a few tales of sneaking onto golf courses.

We've all done things that we weren't "supposed" to do, but such is life. Anyone who says that they haven't needs to take a good look in the mirror. Some things are worth the risk, and most interesting stories are of tales like this.

[Platapus]

I play at a usually pretty legit muni that annually hosts my county amateur tournament. Its only like 15 bucks for me to play during the week and 25 on weekends. Anyway me and my Dad spend a lot of money there and after we hit the range and practice green at night we usually sneak out, but ocasionally I just go to the starter if he's still there he'll let me play a few w/o paying. The only time I got caught was when I went out on 14(it's through the woods and hardly visible) and just as I finished my routine and stepped up to the ball this new guy comes up and ices me right there telling me to go. I don't think he knew who I was because now there are no problems. I feel pretty lucky to play on a decent course with people who respect the quality of my game and let me have a few free practice holes. And also Tiger Woods even said in his How I Play Golf book from 2002 or so that he and his Dad would do the exact same as me and others here who have posted. As for sneaking on to prestigious private courses, I don't know, it's pretty risky and I probably wouldn't try it or reccomend it.

[alez123]

I think that people need to realize that golf is just a game. Too many people now think of things as black or white nothing in between. Stealing is not right nor any form of it. That being said, those people that view sneaking on to as stealing and punishable do you pay for every extra ball you may hit at the driving range that you happen to find next to you upon finishing your practice session that you did not pay for thus not entitled to? Also you stop and pay the proshop for any ball (not yours)that you might find while playing the course since it's not yours and you took it and it after being discarded or lost by the prior player it belonged to the course? Most people don't but that is not seen as stealing but is it not the same thing?

As to the topic I was practicing at the PGA of southern california course in Beamount,CA and after finishing my practice I was walking away from the pracitce facilty(sic) and saw that no one was on the first hole on the legends course and decided that I wanted to hit a drive from where the pros play so I decided to walk over to the first tee with only my driver and a tee/ball and let one go. As soon as I hit my drive a cart pulls up and a cart attendant and a proshop employee tell me that since I hadnot paid for green fees I would have to pay the greens fees right then and there and promptly leave. Ever since then I have never done anything like that before. But hey at least my practice paid off and I hit the fairway!

[woof]

if golf isn't free for anyone from 13 to 21 i say you should steal it!! there is too many ppl who think golf is just for retired ppl or ppl who play with clients for theire fortune 500 companies ,and while thats all true and great i think that its time for all courses to implement a free for kids type deal.since Tiger came along more minoritys and children play golf than all other types of ppl combined. its time to do something to give back to golfs future community instead of take take take yah i'm sure kids growing up and young 20 somethings have side jobs and what not but after clubs balls tees gloves shoes etc etc most are lucky if they have 3 dollars to hit 30 suuuuper crappy range rocks. i know this might not be the norm around the country but i live in small town fl. usa and down here if you haven't had quadruple bi pass or a pacemaker put in then you're treated like you have zero right s on the course. so my question is (im 20) if i've been playing golf for 12 or 13 years and i play on the same course/s a few times a week and played highschool golf at this same course a few years ago and still get treated liek i'm not good enuf to play this slow muni in the summertime than why should anyone pay? i agree with the statement made above you(that extra ball on the range or maybe the few you found on the course during youre round, did you give those to the pro shop inside so they could reseel them?? or did you put it directly in your bag?) guys are all to fast in telling someone theyre stealing but when out in there situation im sure you do the same things. oh and also another q. when did golf hit 60 dollars a round in the summer at a muni for 18? how old were you? and how did you pay? if you love the game and youre playing as good as anyone else and dont tear up teh course and keep pace i see no reason a young person should have to pay to play a game. i dont go to the basketball court and pay for a ball to practice with theres just one there to encourage youth to pick up a healthy sport thst teachees you alot about life. well thats the end of my rant. and also just my humbleopinion. take it with a grain of salt maybe?? id also liek to add that i pay for all my rounds but you better belive me if i didnt have the money for whatever of a million reasons youd still know where to find me.

[j0npeterson]

ok the stories above are great. now i want to hear something about the real exclusive courses!

[webmstrk9]

There are points made, granted everyone has their opinions on 'sneaking' on to play the course. Knowingly doing something which is not right, albeit trespassing or taking a tee shot does impact the course. Taking a tee shot and then leaving your ball in the middle of the fairway, you basically littered in a simplistic view.

As for golf being a game/sport/hobby or such, that it is. Nothing in this world is free, you have to earn it. If you are unable to play golf because of money, find a job, do some chores to earn money, go work at a golf course, earn the right to play, youre not given this right. From munis to exclusive clubs, there are people working for the game we play, keeping the course and facilities in good to great shape. Our green fees pay for the maintenance of the course as well as the facilities that you're taking advantage of.

Also, for those 'sneaking on' and playing a few holes, youre cutting in front of groups and causing frustration.

As for the golfball analogy, for a fact, I do not keep any found balls albeit a prov or top flight. Along with finding a ball the owner had decided to leave it behind, so at that point it is fair game. The manager of the course did not leave the course and is trying to make a living, and you 'sneaking on' is impacting the bottomline of the course. Yes, the courses are businesses, with each business, theyre out to make money and provide a service.

EDIT: I will add this to a comment earlier in which someone stated about leaving the course as it was. Well, think about a someone walking into your garage taking your car for a spin but and replaces the amt of gas used. Is that right? No. Do you know it was taken, no, is there any impact to the value of the car, possibly. Are you impacted immediately, no, long term, again, possibly due to the mileage put on and what was done.

[woof]

I will add this to a comment earlier in which someone stated about leaving the course as it was. Well, think about a someone walking into your garage taking your car for a spin but and replaces the amt of gas used. Is that right? No. Do you know it was taken, no, is there any impact to the value of the car, possibly. Are you impacted immediately, no, long term, again, possibly due to the mileage put on and what was done.
[/quote]




thats soooo far from being even close to an even analogy. its laughable

also in 13 years of playing over a hundred courses numerouse times a piece i think im still yet to meet someone who works at a golf course (pro/owner/mngr) that is in it for the game or for the others theyre there because they got the job they wanted to play golf and get payed. not because they wanted to help teh sport. like i said there are most likely alot of exceptions but truthfully you think kids should pay to play golf? because im sure the over inflated membership fees def pay for enuf to cover teh kid who maybe plays a free round 2 to 3 times a week.

edit: im not trying to make ppl mad dont take my opinions the wrong way. this is just a great debate!

[eaglecabport]

Well I have never done this since leaving university and would have a problem doing it now but I did it as a kid (well, including up to my last year university but many still consider that age a 'kid').

The club I did it at was a private club and ranked in the top 5 in Canada. Anyone reading this recognize it after reading the rest or may have taken part with me, let me know! I lived minutes from this course and some friends of mine were members.

I learned the game at this course by caddying. I just wanted some extra money in the summer and knew nothing about golf other than the fact that my grandparents played (not at that course). By the end of my first summer, I bought a set of used clubs from my caddy money and been addicted ever since that summer (I caddied 2 summers when I was 12 and 13).

We used to sneak on a couple holes that were across the street and the farthest part away from the clubhouse. As a very hilly and tree lined place, unless someone was down that way or driving along the adjacent road, we would never be seen. I often saw others out there at night playing a few holes and/or practicing. When I got cocky and started played some other holes, a few times security came by and I hid in the woods until they were gone. Some scary moments there as what 12 year old wants to get caught doing something like that!

Anyway, fast forward to university days and myself and about 7 others bought glow in the dark balls (travel 80% of the distance so factored that in for club selection) and snuck through an existing hole in the fence at 11:30 pm. We played about 11 holes, ending at 2 am and had a blast! I had a big flashlight so we could see the flag position on the greens. You could sure tell the difference between a mechanical player and a feel player. We had a 3 handicap friend who popped his first shot straight off the toe of the club and into the woods in front of him because he was too visual and mechanical about his swing. I was VERY fortunate to only hit one tee shot in the trees and if not for the glow in the dark ball, I never would have found it as I was looking in the wrong place!! There were rumblings of security which was why we left after 12 holes but what a blast that was!!! Putting is sure hard when only using a flashlight for reading. Thankfully by spending so much time on that course as a caddy, I knew it like the back of my hand.

Was all that the 'right' thing to do? Absolutely not. But I was a young teenager and university student and those are the kinds of things kids do! I do not regret any of it. The midnight golf is still a fond memory of mine!

Don't stress so darned much about these things, people! I know what I did was wrong and had I been caught, my tail would have been grounded forever. Kids will do as kids do. I no longer do it but recognize some do it. If someone gets caught, that is there fault for being there in the first place. I only did it at night (before dark or otherwise) when nobody else was there so I never impeded anyone (as a private club, anyone seeing me would know I was not a member and would have done something). If I was thinking about sneaking on, and there were people playing, I would turn around and go home.

[40Putts]

I live in North/Central NJ, and there is ton of very good, very private courses all within 1/2 hour or so of my house - Plainfield, Baltusrol, Somerset Hills are the biggies, but also Echo Lake and Shackamaxon in Westfield are pretty sweet too. An older friend of mine started the FGA (Free Golf Association) in the early '90's, and he played (I joined him once or twice) the above mentioned courses on Monday afternoons pretty much all summer.

He always said the more prestigious clubs were easier to sneak on, because none of the workers wanted to risk getting reamed for hassling a guy that had a right to play. The bigger clubs that have national memberships work best since not all members will know each other. He was caught every now and then, but all that ever came of it was somebody telling him to get lost before they called the police.

The key is looking like you belong - he got nipped at Baltusrol his first time because he didn't realize they didn't allow shorts.

I am not going to disagree with the above posters who say this is wrong - it is theft, no way around it. But we are talking about some of the greatest tracks in the world, and I don't care how hard you work, or how much you're worth, a lot of us would never get in the doors legitimately...so in this case, I think it is worth the trip to confession.

[woof]

those are soem good stories. a few years back a couple of buddies and i would sneak onto a small executive course behind teh driving range and play the back nine at 8:30 or 9:00 pm when no one was around and hone our short game good memories.

[dpriester]

woof.....

I find myself disagreeing with most of your logic but that may be a generational thing since I'm 59.

But....you do touch on some interesting thoughts:

1. I grew up playing muni's that gave disounts in the summer to youths 16 and younger. If I ran a muni course, I would think I could gain some great PR by making a certain day of the week "youth day" and at least offer half-price on that day to youths 16 and younger.

2. Question for you...in a previous note above you laid into the old dudes for acting like a group unto themselves. Older people in general do tend to ignore anyone not in their age group. That's not always because they are stuck up. Have you tried to approach them or do you treat them the same way? It is a two way street.

[scores]

If your MOMMY and DADDY were not rich you would do it toooo!!

Yep I did it in college no $$$'s paid for that myself with a shovel and a back ache. Not so much when I was young JR memberships were real cheap paid for my own!