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Manual de la Torre Method


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#901 juststeve

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 03:03 PM

 oikos1, on 26 February 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

Like this:

moe norman.gif

Yes but not to the same extent.  Norman had a very wide stance, mine is relatively narrow.  Norman exhibited a lot of lateral leg drive to get to the ball that far forward.  The swing I was taught just orbits a stationary swing center.  With my feet that wide my swing would never get to the ball.

BTW.  Played one day with Norman and Manny at MCC.  Never seen anyone hit the ball as straight and consistent as Norman.  Just unbelievable.

Steve


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#902 sjcc

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 12:35 PM

 juststeve, on 26 February 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

 sjcc, on 23 February 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

Driver position.

How far forward in your stance can you play the driver given that you want to hit up on the ball? Aim a bit to the right and catch the ball just past low point as the club comes back inside your target line?

I'm just returning to Mdlt after a two year stint beginning in 2010. This time around, thanks to this thread, my understanding is much clearer. I'll be going all in....

Probably Manny's most controversial teaching is that every full swing, no matter the club, should begin with the club head in the center of the stance.  Probably a majority of good teachers disagree, and I have in the past as well.

First, why this teaching?  In Manny's opinion what thew golfers he taught needed most to play better and enjoy the game more was consistency.  He wanted his players to be able to make consistent contact with the ball and send it consistently toward the target.  Much of his teaching is directed at that very thing, consistency.  In his view having the club in the center of the stance at the beginning of the swing led to a consistent back swing path, forward swing path, and low spot in the swing.  He fully understood that the method wasn't optimal for producing maximum distance with the driver, but felt the opportunity to be more consistent outweighed the minor loss in distance.

When I was much younger I asked Manny about moving the driver up in my stance.  I didn't know then what I know now about how backspin limits distance, but I did know most other golfers were playing the ball much further forward with the driver than I was.  Manny somewhat reluctantly endorsed my forward ball position experiment with two notes of caution.  1)  It should remain my intention to swing the club on an arc around a fixed swing center even though I was starting the swing with the club head and ball further forward.  He felt like my athleticism and arm speed would move the arc sufficiently forward to assure good contact.  2)  He cautioned me quite sternly about the effect moving the club head forward at address would have on my shoulder alignment.   Moving the club head forward opens the shoulders which, without compensations, produces an outside take away and a forward swing too much to the left.  Because of this he had me readjust my shoulder before I began to swing by taking the right shoulder back from the line until the plane of my shoulders seemed parallel to the plane of the target line.  This I founds hard to do day in and day out on a consistent basis.  

As a result of this experiment I concluded that with the ball forward I was hitting the ball a little further but that my direction suffered.  I returned to a set up with the club head in the center of my stance and the ball 2 or 3 inches to the left of the club head.  From that position I was able to strike the ball squarely in the back with a level angle of attack.

Sorry for the long answer but it wasn't a simple question.

Steve

Thank you Steve, appreciate the detailed response.

I experimented some on the range last Sunday. I found that for me a good driver position was just inside left heel, probably 5 or 6 inches forward of center. Like you I addressed the ball with the club in the center of my stance and that kept my shoulders parallel to target line. My stance is not too wide, within shoulder width. I hit about 75% of the drives where I was aiming, nice high ball flight. Most of the misses (left) were because I didn't tame the shoulders. I put a SkyPro device on the shaft and this showed I was hitting up on the ball between plus 1 and plus 2 degrees. With the ball any further back in my stance I was hitting down on it some.

I think modern (driver and ball)  equipment does dictate a more foreword ball position versus the equipment I played starting out in the early '70s. I'll do some more range time with my renewed focus on mdlt, but the ball flight I saw was so much better than my previous body driven swing. I'm excited about golf again.

Thank you for your contributions to this topic.


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#903 juststeve

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 12:38 PM

 sjcc, on 27 February 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

 juststeve, on 26 February 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

 sjcc, on 23 February 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

Driver position.

How far forward in your stance can you play the driver given that you want to hit up on the ball? Aim a bit to the right and catch the ball just past low point as the club comes back inside your target line?

I'm just returning to Mdlt after a two year stint beginning in 2010. This time around, thanks to this thread, my understanding is much clearer. I'll be going all in....

Probably Manny's most controversial teaching is that every full swing, no matter the club, should begin with the club head in the center of the stance.  Probably a majority of good teachers disagree, and I have in the past as well.

First, why this teaching?  In Manny's opinion what thew golfers he taught needed most to play better and enjoy the game more was consistency.  He wanted his players to be able to make consistent contact with the ball and send it consistently toward the target.  Much of his teaching is directed at that very thing, consistency.  In his view having the club in the center of the stance at the beginning of the swing led to a consistent back swing path, forward swing path, and low spot in the swing.  He fully understood that the method wasn't optimal for producing maximum distance with the driver, but felt the opportunity to be more consistent outweighed the minor loss in distance.

When I was much younger I asked Manny about moving the driver up in my stance.  I didn't know then what I know now about how backspin limits distance, but I did know most other golfers were playing the ball much further forward with the driver than I was.  Manny somewhat reluctantly endorsed my forward ball position experiment with two notes of caution.  1)  It should remain my intention to swing the club on an arc around a fixed swing center even though I was starting the swing with the club head and ball further forward.  He felt like my athleticism and arm speed would move the arc sufficiently forward to assure good contact.  2)  He cautioned me quite sternly about the effect moving the club head forward at address would have on my shoulder alignment.   Moving the club head forward opens the shoulders which, without compensations, produces an outside take away and a forward swing too much to the left.  Because of this he had me readjust my shoulder before I began to swing by taking the right shoulder back from the line until the plane of my shoulders seemed parallel to the plane of the target line.  This I founds hard to do day in and day out on a consistent basis.  

As a result of this experiment I concluded that with the ball forward I was hitting the ball a little further but that my direction suffered.  I returned to a set up with the club head in the center of my stance and the ball 2 or 3 inches to the left of the club head.  From that position I was able to strike the ball squarely in the back with a level angle of attack.

Sorry for the long answer but it wasn't a simple question.

Steve

Thank you Steve, appreciate the detailed response.

I experimented some on the range last Sunday. I found that for me a good driver position was just inside left heel, probably 5 or 6 inches forward of center. Like you I addressed the ball with the club in the center of my stance and that kept my shoulders parallel to target line. My stance is not too wide, within shoulder width. I hit about 75% of the drives where I was aiming, nice high ball flight. Most of the misses (left) were because I didn't tame the shoulders. I put a SkyPro device on the shaft and this showed I was hitting up on the ball between plus 1 and plus 2 degrees. With the ball any further back in my stance I was hitting down on it some.

I think modern (driver and ball)  equipment does dictate a more foreword ball position versus the equipment I played starting out in the early '70s. I'll do some more range time with my renewed focus on mdlt, but the ball flight I saw was so much better than my previous body driven swing. I'm excited about golf again.

Thank you for your contributions to this topic.

Remember that most PGA tour players, males, hit slightly down on their drivers.

Steve

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#904 sjcc

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 01:23 PM

 juststeve, on 27 February 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

 sjcc, on 27 February 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

 juststeve, on 26 February 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

 sjcc, on 23 February 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

Driver position.

How far forward in your stance can you play the driver given that you want to hit up on the ball? Aim a bit to the right and catch the ball just past low point as the club comes back inside your target line?

I'm just returning to Mdlt after a two year stint beginning in 2010. This time around, thanks to this thread, my understanding is much clearer. I'll be going all in....

Probably Manny's most controversial teaching is that every full swing, no matter the club, should begin with the club head in the center of the stance.  Probably a majority of good teachers disagree, and I have in the past as well.

First, why this teaching?  In Manny's opinion what thew golfers he taught needed most to play better and enjoy the game more was consistency.  He wanted his players to be able to make consistent contact with the ball and send it consistently toward the target.  Much of his teaching is directed at that very thing, consistency.  In his view having the club in the center of the stance at the beginning of the swing led to a consistent back swing path, forward swing path, and low spot in the swing.  He fully understood that the method wasn't optimal for producing maximum distance with the driver, but felt the opportunity to be more consistent outweighed the minor loss in distance.

When I was much younger I asked Manny about moving the driver up in my stance.  I didn't know then what I know now about how backspin limits distance, but I did know most other golfers were playing the ball much further forward with the driver than I was.  Manny somewhat reluctantly endorsed my forward ball position experiment with two notes of caution.  1)  It should remain my intention to swing the club on an arc around a fixed swing center even though I was starting the swing with the club head and ball further forward.  He felt like my athleticism and arm speed would move the arc sufficiently forward to assure good contact.  2)  He cautioned me quite sternly about the effect moving the club head forward at address would have on my shoulder alignment.   Moving the club head forward opens the shoulders which, without compensations, produces an outside take away and a forward swing too much to the left.  Because of this he had me readjust my shoulder before I began to swing by taking the right shoulder back from the line until the plane of my shoulders seemed parallel to the plane of the target line.  This I founds hard to do day in and day out on a consistent basis.  

As a result of this experiment I concluded that with the ball forward I was hitting the ball a little further but that my direction suffered.  I returned to a set up with the club head in the center of my stance and the ball 2 or 3 inches to the left of the club head.  From that position I was able to strike the ball squarely in the back with a level angle of attack.

Sorry for the long answer but it wasn't a simple question.

Steve

Thank you Steve, appreciate the detailed response.

I experimented some on the range last Sunday. I found that for me a good driver position was just inside left heel, probably 5 or 6 inches forward of center. Like you I addressed the ball with the club in the center of my stance and that kept my shoulders parallel to target line. My stance is not too wide, within shoulder width. I hit about 75% of the drives where I was aiming, nice high ball flight. Most of the misses (left) were because I didn't tame the shoulders. I put a SkyPro device on the shaft and this showed I was hitting up on the ball between plus 1 and plus 2 degrees. With the ball any further back in my stance I was hitting down on it some.

I think modern (driver and ball)  equipment does dictate a more foreword ball position versus the equipment I played starting out in the early '70s. I'll do some more range time with my renewed focus on mdlt, but the ball flight I saw was so much better than my previous body driven swing. I'm excited about golf again.

Thank you for your contributions to this topic.

Remember that most PGA tour players, males, hit slightly down on their drivers.

Steve

Ok, good to know. I'll try moving ball back in inch increments and check the results. More to follow. Though with a driver swing speed of 96-98mph maybe I need the 'hit up'.

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#905 delfam

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 10:01 AM

So having the ball slightly forward but the club in the center of your stance makes sense for a driver, but what about a 3 wood? And does it matter if it's tee'd up vs not?

I like playing woods slightly in front of centered (less so than before due to this method), but not sure if the above is the same for 3w/5w/hybrids/etc.


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#906 juststeve

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 10:45 AM

I always start with the club head in the center of my stance the ball on the target side.  Only when the ball is on a tee would I consider moving the ball very far forward of the club head.  Even with a three wood I want to strike the ball slightly down and forward and that becomes harder to do as the ball moves up in the stance.

Steve

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#907 slantsflood

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:48 PM

Hey Steve.  Had a question regarding Manuels teaching. It's mostly about take away and the start of the swing. He says to swing the clubhead back with both hands over the right shoulder. But in his book I read that the whole club has to move at the same time to create a swinging motion. So in my mind that means that the grip the shaft and the clubhead are all moving at the same time by the use of the hands. To me it feels like when I do that the hands were just holding on and the the arms or swing the club up to the right shoulder.  Hope that makes sense.  Thanks  

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#908 juststeve

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 09:19 AM

 slantsflood, on 16 April 2018 - 08:48 PM, said:

Hey Steve.  Had a question regarding Manuels teaching. It's mostly about take away and the start of the swing. He says to swing the clubhead back with both hands over the right shoulder. But in his book I read that the whole club has to move at the same time to create a swinging motion. So in my mind that means that the grip the shaft and the clubhead are all moving at the same time by the use of the hands. To me it feels like when I do that the hands were just holding on and the the arms or swing the club up to the right shoulder.  Hope that makes sense.  Thanks  

Manny was concerned that the club be swung and not moved in another way such as pulled, pushed or levered.  Manny defined levering the club as occurring any time when the but of the club moved in the opposite direction from the club head.  Hence the teaching that the whole cub moves at the same time in the same direction.  No leverage allowed.

When we do this with our hands are arms are involved but not consciously.  If your intention is to swing the club heads over the trail shoulder with both hands the arms will move to accommodate.

One of my faults is sometimes I slip into swinging the club back with my arm, not my hands and the result is I'm pulled off the ball rather than coiled over the ball.  Poor shots ensue.

As to a true swinging motion, it is easier to feel it than describe it.  Manny's method for teaching you to feel what a swinging motion is like was to swing a weight on the end of a string from waist high on one side to waist high on the other.  If you're swinging the string remains taught.  If you start with leverage the weight stops moving.  I, speaking for myself think a training aid sold online as the Whippy Tempo Master.  The only way to hit satisfactory shots with that is to swing it and you will soon learn what it means to swing.

Steve

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#909 slantsflood

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 11:36 AM

Thank you Steve.  Great explanation on the matter.  Another 2 questions and then I'll leave you alone lol.  Did Manny give people a saying or any feels to relieve tension before the swing starts?  And second question, are your hands a touch ahead of the clubhead at address? (slight shaft lean)  And thank you Steve for keeping the mdlt going on here.

Edited by slantsflood, 17 April 2018 - 11:37 AM.

"Patience without understanding"

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#910 juststeve

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:03 PM

 slantsflood, on 17 April 2018 - 11:36 AM, said:

Thank you Steve.  Great explanation on the matter.  Another 2 questions and then I'll leave you alone lol.  Did Manny give people a saying or any feels to relieve tension before the swing starts?  And second question, are your hands a touch ahead of the clubhead at address? (slight shaft lean)  And thank you Steve for keeping the mdlt going on here.

Manny never taught "feels" being certain that the correct movement of the club would feel different to different people.  He would remind a student to relax of he detected tension in the swing but he left it to the student to discovery what proper relaxation felt like to him.

At address the club head is in the center of my stance and the butt of the club is pointed to the center of my body.  My intention is to return the club to that position at impact.  Notwithstanding my intention because of the speed in the arms when I return to impact my hands are ahead of the ball and I have sufficient shaft lean.   The impact position is a result of swinging the club forward with my arms, not something I consciously try to achieve.

Steve


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#911 slantsflood

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 01:53 PM

One of the things I found that really made things click was a video of him talking about the takeaway.  He said if you take it back with the right arm, the club will be shut and off plane.  If you take it back with the right hand, the club stays square and on plane.  This was a biggie for me.  All the years of "turning" to start the takeaway would leave my arms straight, which led to sucking it inside and flat by the time I got to the top. If I use both hands, that right elbow tends to fold in a more natural fashion, instead of a contorted feeling.
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#912 Ghostwedge

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 11:39 AM

Whew... discovered and read this whole thread over the past few nights. Thnx to The Pearl and juststeve, and all the other contributors concerning the MDLT swing and philosphy. Adopted this about 10 yrs ago after realizing my golf longevity wasn't going to happen with what was being taught about the "body swing" moving off the ball, lot of foward shaft lean, huge divots, etc.
Steve Stricker has been mentioned alot on here as a model, does Chris Kirk's swing fit this MLTD mold. My untrained teaching eye is just curious. Any other current players or LPGA players ? Thoughts, thnx.

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#913 juststeve

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:24 PM

Sherri Steinhauer, Carol Mann, Ted Purdy and Tommy Aaron are the best known, to me, of Manny's long time students.  It could be argued though that almost all good golfers at every level exhibit the fundamental  tenets of the swing Manny taught:

1.  They move the club by swinging it;

2.  They swing the club around a relatively fixed swing center; and

3,  They swing the club toward the target.

Those three things are  the heart of what Manny taught.  The other things are secondary

Steve

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#914 dlygrisse

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:30 PM

 juststeve, on 18 April 2018 - 12:24 PM, said:

Sherri Steinhauer, Carol Mann, Ted Purdy and Tommy Aaron are the best known, to me, of Manny's long time students.  It could be argued though that almost all good golfers at every level exhibit the fundamental  tenets of the swing Manny taught:

1.  They move the club by swinging it;

2.  They swing the club around a relatively fixed swing center; and

3,  They swing the club toward the target.

Those three things are  the heart of what Manny taught.  The other things are secondary

Steve

It really helps me when I think about swinging the whole club towards the target, not just the clubhead.  I visualize the entire shaft swinging on plane towards the target.  If I think clubhead then I cast and swing underplane and too inside out.  

Hope that makes sense.  

Steve, thanks again for all your contributions.
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