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Manual de la Torre Method


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#31 ericpaul2

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 11:27 AM

MDLT does not disagree with the generally accepted sequence of movement.  He also is not implying that is model swing should look like a rank beginner trying to keep their body still and swing just their arms.

What he does say though is that the golfer's muscles will respond to the golfer's intended concept of the golf swing.  If the golfer's mind is "in the club" with the intention of swinging the whole club towards the target (in his book he talks about everything rotating at the same speed - club head, shaft, and handle), then the correct body movements will be made more consistently.  He absolutely states that consciously holding lag or trying to "hit late" is not going to result in the best result in a repeatable fashion.  That's what we see in Stricker's swing...no intention to time a release of wrist c0ck, just letting that lag be a result of the speed of the swing.  Now, whether he is trying to add some "effort" with the body is a totally different question.  

In my mind, his practice swings look powered almost completely by the arms, while the full swing looks more as if the whole body is engaged, as opposed to many pros who look like the practice swing is all body, no arms (the old glove under the armpit swing).


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#32 juststeve

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 11:30 AM

View PostRBImGuy, on 28 April 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 28 April 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

View PostRBImGuy, on 28 April 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 28 April 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Does he power it with his arms allowing his body to respond, or does he move his arms with his pivot?  In a swing as well coordinated as his it is very hard to tell just by looking.

Steve
Pivot driven allowing his body to respond to arms falling.
He does that really well.

And you know that how?  Could be true but experience teaches me that well done the MDLT swing is hard to distinguish from the body driven swing.  I love to hear Stricker say what he's doing.

Steve.

You can see that on what muscles activate in what order as he swings and how the sequence fire and how much effort is applied in the firing.
If he didnt do that his sequence would be different.
Even if you asked him he wouldnt have a clue what he does when he swings.



Even were I to ask Stricker "he wouldn't have a clue what he does when he swings", but you do.  can't really argue with that, or at least why bother.

Steve.

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#33 RBImGuy

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 12:49 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 28 April 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:



Even were I to ask Stricker "he wouldn't have a clue what he does when he swings", but you do.  can't really argue with that, or at least why bother.

Steve.

If he do know what he does when he swing, he cant play tour golf or hit the target.
If you dont understand that you cant play golf that well.
If he Stricker then analyze what he does when he dosnt swing it wont be accurate and correct anyhow.
There is a ton of examples of people actually believe that can happen and it isnt true for golfers as Ben Hogan, Nicklaus, woods, or stricker.
You just cant do that due to how the brain creates perceptual difference in your affect of the motor control vs what actually happens.

I come from a field of where consiousness and perception can mean the difference between life and death for people so I learned to see muscle tension and activation for emotions and micro expressions that happens beyond what people call consious level. for me those are obvious.
For a normal swing guru, totally elusive.

So Stricker whatever he will say wont be accurate.
Its just isnt possible to do as its his own understanding of a few things he feels that will affect his perceptions in what he does see when he see himself swing.
Now you may not like that fact or even argue that it cant be that way and still it just is.
I model down Mike Austins swing motion and taught that and the guy is able to replicate his motion when Mike himself couldnt teach and understand that and he was a smart guy.
I dont talk much of what I do as it goes beyond most peoples understanding about human perceptions and mostly due to people want to stay ignorant and misinformed as its more comfortable.

For me I know what I say and observe is more accurate than what Stricker would say due to he will be coming from the beliefs and knowledge and have his own mind in his way when he analyze. I am happy to be proven wrong though.
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#34 juststeve

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 01:24 PM

View PostRBImGuy, on 28 April 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 28 April 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Even were I to ask Stricker "he wouldn't have a clue what he does when he swings", but you do.  can't really argue with that, or at least why bother.

Steve.

If he do know what he does when he swing, he cant play tour golf or hit the target.
If you dont understand that you cant play golf that well.
If he Stricker then analyze what he does when he dosnt swing it wont be accurate and correct anyhow.
There is a ton of examples of people actually believe that can happen and it isnt true for golfers as Ben Hogan, Nicklaus, woods, or stricker.
You just cant do that due to how the brain creates perceptual difference in your affect of the motor control vs what actually happens.

I come from a field of where consiousness and perception can mean the difference between life and death for people so I learned to see muscle tension and activation for emotions and micro expressions that happens beyond what people call consious level. for me those are obvious.
For a normal swing guru, totally elusive.

So Stricker whatever he will say wont be accurate.
Its just isnt possible to do as its his own understanding of a few things he feels that will affect his perceptions in what he does see when he see himself swing.
Now you may not like that fact or even argue that it cant be that way and still it just is.
I model down Mike Austins swing motion and taught that and the guy is able to replicate his motion when Mike himself couldnt teach and understand that and he was a smart guy.
I dont talk much of what I do as it goes beyond most peoples understanding about human perceptions and mostly due to people want to stay ignorant and misinformed as its more comfortable.

For me I know what I say and observe is more accurate than what Stricker would say due to he will be coming from the beliefs and knowledge and have his own mind in his way when he analyze. I am happy to be proven wrong though.
Mail him my view and ask him.

As I said, I can't argue with that.  You become more impressive with every post.

Steve

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#35 lsh

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 05:14 AM

View Postjuststeve, on 24 April 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Manny taught me to swing the golf club, from scratch, in the late 60's and has been my mentor virtually ever since.  He took me from literally never had hit a golf ball to a plus handicap at Milwaukee Country Club by the end of my second summer of very intense work.  You can't do better than MDLT.

Steve

Is Manny giving lessons in Milwaukee this spring?  I am getting ready to send a fax.
Thanks
Also Steve


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#36 juststeve

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 10:26 AM

Send your faxl.  He is usually there beginning mid April.  I haven't heard anything to make me think otherwise.

Steve

Edited by juststeve, 02 May 2014 - 01:38 PM.


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#37 PreppySlapCut

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 07:59 AM

Admittedly I'm late to the MdlT party, but as I believe in the acquisition of knowledge I would have been remiss to leave him out of my studies.  I believe Mr. de la Torre to be a brilliant man.  His focus on "club focused" teaching is something that I believe many golfers (and I mean most) would truly benefit from.  I've seen pretty much every type of reasonable action have success, so I pride myself on being able to help my students by changing the fewest number of pieces necessary in order to achieve the greatest results.  The great thing about his overall way of explaining things is that it affords a lot of individuality.  Rather than having to tailor specific body based instruction to each person based on their level of strength, flexibility, size, etc, you're essentially allowing each person to do whatever they have to do in order to swing the whole club towards the target.  Really just eloquent in its simplicity, without being deficient in particular areas.  He's someone I would LOVE to shadow for a few days, just listening to how he interacts with students of various levels.
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#38 lsh

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 01:48 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 02 May 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

Send your faxl.  He is usually there beginning mid April.  I haven't heard anything to make me think otherwise.

Steve
I sent the fax just after noon on Friday and have not heard from him yet. I was really hoping to set something up this month.

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#39 lsh

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 08:53 AM

Manny called me and I scheduled a session with him for later this month. I forgot to ask where the lesson was. Does he still give the lessons at the Milwaukee CC?

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#40 The Pearl

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:21 AM

View Postlsh, on 07 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Manny called me and I scheduled a session with him for later this month. I forgot to ask where the lesson was. Does he still give the lessons at the Milwaukee CC?

As far as I know he does not teach anywhere else.   You can arrive early and use the range to warm up and you can stay after and hit balls.  Everybody was very nice and I gathered that they are very used to people coming from all over to take lessons, so you are kind of treated as Manny's guest for the day.   On one of the day's they had a fellow at the entrance to check you in, on the other two days there was nobody and you just drive into the lot next to the range.  Usual country club attire, no cargo shorts.

Do you live around the area, or are you venturing in from afar?

Make sure you read his book a few times, it will put you ahead of the game.

Edited by The Pearl, 07 May 2014 - 11:23 AM.


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#41 lsh

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:28 AM

View PostThe Pearl, on 07 May 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

View Postlsh, on 07 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Manny called me and I scheduled a session with him for later this month. I forgot to ask where the lesson was. Does he still give the lessons at the Milwaukee CC?

As far as I know he does not teach anywhere else.   You can arrive early and use the range to warm up and you can stay after and hit balls.  Everybody was very nice and I gathered that they are very used to people coming from all over to take lessons, so you are kind of treated as Manny's guest for the day.   On one of the day's they had a fellow at the entrance to check you in, on the other two days there was nobody and you just drive into the lot next to the range.  Usual country club attire, no cargo shorts.

Do you live around the area, or are you venturing in from afar?

Make sure you read his book a few times, it will put you ahead of the game.

Driving in from Southern Tier of NY State. According to Mapquest it's 771 miles.

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#42 The Pearl

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 12:08 PM

View Postlsh, on 07 May 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostThe Pearl, on 07 May 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

View Postlsh, on 07 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Manny called me and I scheduled a session with him for later this month. I forgot to ask where the lesson was. Does he still give the lessons at the Milwaukee CC?

As far as I know he does not teach anywhere else.   You can arrive early and use the range to warm up and you can stay after and hit balls.  Everybody was very nice and I gathered that they are very used to people coming from all over to take lessons, so you are kind of treated as Manny's guest for the day.   On one of the day's they had a fellow at the entrance to check you in, on the other two days there was nobody and you just drive into the lot next to the range.  Usual country club attire, no cargo shorts.

Do you live around the area, or are you venturing in from afar?

Make sure you read his book a few times, it will put you ahead of the game.

Driving in from Southern Tier of NY State. According to Mapquest it's 771 miles.

Fellow WNY alum here. If you have some time to kill, you might want to consider driving up to see Whistling Straits.   I stayed at the Courtyard/Milwaukee Brown Deer.  Brown Deer golf course is nearby and has a driving range.

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#43 northgolf

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:05 PM

MDLT says to swing the clubhead back with the hands and then to swing the entire club towards the target with the arms.  For me, "swinging" is a feel, and this intention requires me to shift my focus from my hands and the clubhead to my arms and the entire club during transition.  I am finding this shift in focus challenging.   Any tips or comments on how to accomplish this shift in focus, or is does it just take practice?

I am finding this method requires a good bit of mental discipline.
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#44 The Pearl

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:43 PM

View Postnorthgolf, on 08 May 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

MDLT says to swing the clubhead back with the hands and then to swing the entire club towards the target with the arms.  For me, "swinging" is a feel, and this intention requires me to shift my focus from my hands and the clubhead to my arms and the entire club during transition.  I am finding this shift in focus challenging.   Any tips or comments on how to accomplish this shift in focus, or is does it just take practice?

I am finding this method requires a good bit of mental discipline.


Despite my sticking with MDLT's method and my lessons, I agree that this is very difficult  to execute or acquire the proper intention and remains my stumbling block to a big leap in improvement.   A bit confusing, is that in his book he says to not interpret this part of the the method as swinging the arms rather the arms are used as the vehicle.

Certainly worthy of discussion so I hope JustSteve might shed some light here.

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#45 juststeve

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:12 AM

View PostThe Pearl, on 08 May 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

View Postnorthgolf, on 08 May 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

MDLT says to swing the clubhead back with the hands and then to swing the entire club towards the target with the arms.  For me, "swinging" is a feel, and this intention requires me to shift my focus from my hands and the clubhead to my arms and the entire club during transition.  I am finding this shift in focus challenging.   Any tips or comments on how to accomplish this shift in focus, or is does it just take practice?

I am finding this method requires a good bit of mental discipline.


Despite my sticking with MDLT's method and my lessons, I agree that this is very difficult  to execute or acquire the proper intention and remains my stumbling block to a big leap in improvement.   A bit confusing, is that in his book he says to not interpret this part of the the method as swinging the arms rather the arms are used as the vehicle.

Certainly worthy of discussion so I hope JustSteve might shed some light here.

Guys:

I'll offer a few thoughts, Hope they will help.

1.  Swing the club in the direction of the target.  This is the absolute fundamental.  Everything else is secondary.  No matter what your swing method you can't hit a straight shot at the target unless at impact the club is swinging toward the target.  Therefore Manny teaches us to swing the club in the direction of the target.  Those who don't teach it explicitly should.

2.  Why the upper arms?  Because when we swing forward with our upper arms we promote an immediate response from our body.Some teachers would refer to this as connection, Manny would say the coil is maintained into the forward swing.  This promotes power, balance and consistency, all very good things.  We don't get the same response when we swing forward in another way.

3.  Why not just swing the arms?  Because just swinging the arms does not insure that the club will be swinging in the direction of the target at impact, and that is job one.  My own observation is that people who try to swing their arms, usually toward the target, produce a club path to the right of target at impact.  Can you play that way?  Sure but you can't hit the ball straight at your target that way.

4,  What do you feel when your swing the club in the direction of the target?  It will vary from person to person.  I myself have two or three feels that produce the correct motion of the club.  When I warm up before a round I find my feel de jour.  So if you are in fact making the club swing toward the target at impact, and feeling that you are swinging your arms, by all means go with that feel while it works.  When it stops working though you need to return to the fundamental, making the CLUB swing in the direction of the target with your arms as Manny defines them.

Hope this helps.

Steve.


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#46 The Pearl

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:57 AM

Thanks Steve,

I have never made the correlation between using the upper arms to swing the entire club towards the target and the concept of connection.  This makes me think that I have been unconsciously using the upper arms independently for fear of not trying to overuse the shoulders. This is probably causing my lack of consistency in letting the body respond. When I play poorly, I have too much arm action and very poor body response. I do know what it is supposed to feel like because I have executed it many times, just not consistently.

I have to remember, despite Manny's precise language, not to get too literal in execution.

Edited by The Pearl, 09 May 2014 - 08:58 AM.


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#47 juststeve

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:41 AM

View PostThe Pearl, on 09 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Thanks Steve,

I have never made the correlation between using the upper arms to swing the entire club towards the target and the concept of connection.  This makes me think that I have been unconsciously using the upper arms independently for fear of not trying to overuse the shoulders. This is probably causing my lack of consistency in letting the body respond. When I play poorly, I have too much arm action and very poor body response. I do know what it is supposed to feel like because I have executed it many times, just not consistently.

I have to remember, despite Manny's precise language, not to get too literal in execution.

Remember Manny's platoon of soldiers.  There is one leader but when the command to march is given the whole platoon moves out together.  In the forward swing the arms leads but the response from the body is immediate and proportional to what the arms do.  In effect, everything is moving together with the body moving in response to the forward swinging of the club with the arms.

Steve

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#48 lsh

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:23 PM

View PostThe Pearl, on 07 May 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

View Postlsh, on 07 May 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostThe Pearl, on 07 May 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

View Postlsh, on 07 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Manny called me and I scheduled a session with him for later this month. I forgot to ask where the lesson was. Does he still give the lessons at the Milwaukee CC?

As far as I know he does not teach anywhere else.   You can arrive early and use the range to warm up and you can stay after and hit balls.  Everybody was very nice and I gathered that they are very used to people coming from all over to take lessons, so you are kind of treated as Manny's guest for the day.   On one of the day's they had a fellow at the entrance to check you in, on the other two days there was nobody and you just drive into the lot next to the range.  Usual country club attire, no cargo shorts.

Do you live around the area, or are you venturing in from afar?

Make sure you read his book a few times, it will put you ahead of the game.

Driving in from Southern Tier of NY State. According to Mapquest it's 771 miles.

Fellow WNY alum here. If you have some time to kill, you might want to consider driving up to see Whistling Straits.   I stayed at the Courtyard/Milwaukee Brown Deer.  Brown Deer golf course is nearby and has a driving range.
My wife is riding along. She wants to see the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame so we are stopping near Cleveland the 1st night then driving on to Milwaukee.
I played yesterday and whether it's right or wrong I watched some Stricker swings before I went and it worked pretty well.

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#49 IamMarkMac

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:29 AM

I was intrigued enough by this thread to pick up the book but now my head is swimming with a lot of ideas and questions.

I definitely can't ask all the questions here but I was wondering about this:  Somehow, I get the feeling I will not be able to fully ingrain the teachings in the book without an actual MDLT session.  Would this be right?

I will say this though; one of my biggest problems in the last year was my follow through.  The "swing with the upper arms" thought cured that almost instantly where all the other swing thoughts I had been told ("hit through the ball", "release past the ball", "turn until your buckle faces the target") failed.
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#50 The Pearl

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 08:54 AM

View PostIamMarkMac, on 11 May 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

I was intrigued enough by this thread to pick up the book but now my head is swimming with a lot of ideas and questions.

I definitely can't ask all the questions here but I was wondering about this:  Somehow, I get the feeling I will not be able to fully ingrain the teachings in the book without an actual MDLT session.  Would this be right?

I will say this though; one of my biggest problems in the last year was my follow through.  The "swing with the upper arms" thought cured that almost instantly where all the other swing thoughts I had been told ("hit through the ball", "release past the ball", "turn until your buckle faces the target") failed.

A lesson with MDLT is an amazing experience and I think anybody who is able to should go see him.   But realize that there is no ADD ON INSTRUCTION in a lesson.  EVERYTHING is in the book.  When he teaches, he uses the exact same language and phrasings as in the book.  His genius is two-fold, his philosophy of how to swing the golf club AND his philosophy on how to teach it. He is precise, right down to every word and action.

You are not going to get 2 or 3 secret tips reserved only for those showing up at MCC.

I would search this forum, there are several threads discussing MDLT and I would just ask away with any questions.  JustSteve is Manny's voice on the forum as he learned the game from Manny at MCC and he has been more than generous and patient with us all in helping us parse through the book.

One thing that does stand out in a lesson, that is impossible to get conveyed fully in book form, is that "mental intention" is essential on every swing.


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#51 tm3

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:56 AM

very interesting teaching philosophy.

two questions:

1) is the neutral/weak grip a requirement for correct execution of the MdLT swing?

2) can significant progress be made by using the book only, or is in person instruction pretty  much a requirement?

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#52 The Pearl

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:48 AM

View Posttm3, on 11 May 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

very interesting teaching philosophy.

two questions:

1) is the neutral/weak grip a requirement for correct execution of the MdLT swing?

2) can significant progress be made by using the book only, or is in person instruction pretty  much a requirement?


MDLT does not promote a "weak" grip.   I think you should reverse engineer your question and ask yourself, "why would I not use a neutral grip?" I would not say that I have a perfectly neutral grip and my hands tend to be a little too separated, but he never corrected my grip during my lesson.  It seems to be the closer to neutral the better, particularly if you are having significant ball striking problems.  


Yes,  you can make significant progress from the book.  It is all in the book, as I said earlier.

Edited by The Pearl, 11 May 2014 - 10:50 AM.


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#53 tm3

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:22 AM

View PostThe Pearl, on 11 May 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

View Posttm3, on 11 May 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

very interesting teaching philosophy.

two questions:

1) is the neutral/weak grip a requirement for correct execution of the MdLT swing?

2) can significant progress be made by using the book only, or is in person instruction pretty  much a requirement?


MDLT does not promote a "weak" grip.   I think you should reverse engineer your question and ask yourself, "why would I not use a neutral grip?" I would not say that I have a perfectly neutral grip and my hands tend to be a little too separated, but he never corrected my grip during my lesson.  It seems to be the closer to neutral the better, particularly if you are having significant ball striking problems.  


Yes,  you can make significant progress from the book.  It is all in the book, as I said earlier.

thanks.  from the photos in the book the grip looks weaker than what i have seen advocated in most other instruction that i am aware of.  in prior experiments my better results have come with a stronger grip so i was wondering if changing is a necessity.

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#54 The Pearl

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 12:29 PM

I am not sure what Manuel's answer would be, perhaps Steve will chime in. How are you playing now, what do you shoot, what are your misses, and why does his method appeal to you?   I will steal Manuel's line he will eventually ask you during a lesson, "What are you trying to do?" I guess I would take a common sense approach.  If you are a mid to high handicapper, I would probably try to change the grip.  If I was a single digit player looking to a more simple way to play, I might tinker with it slowly.

You might review the corrections and fixes section in the book.  Some recommend making sure your grip is proper.  Perhaps some might  apply to your common miss.

Edited by The Pearl, 11 May 2014 - 12:29 PM.


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#55 IamMarkMac

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 05:53 PM

View PostThe Pearl, on 11 May 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

View PostIamMarkMac, on 11 May 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

I was intrigued enough by this thread to pick up the book but now my head is swimming with a lot of ideas and questions. I definitely can't ask all the questions here but I was wondering about this: Somehow, I get the feeling I will not be able to fully ingrain the teachings in the book without an actual MDLT session. Would this be right? I will say this though; one of my biggest problems in the last year was my follow through. The "swing with the upper arms" thought cured that almost instantly where all the other swing thoughts I had been told ("hit through the ball", "release past the ball", "turn until your buckle faces the target") failed.
A lesson with MDLT is an amazing experience and I think anybody who is able to should go see him. But realize that there is no ADD ON INSTRUCTION in a lesson. EVERYTHING is in the book. When he teaches, he uses the exact same language and phrasings as in the book. His genius is two-fold, his philosophy of how to swing the golf club AND his philosophy on how to teach it. He is precise, right down to every word and action. You are not going to get 2 or 3 secret tips reserved only for those showing up at MCC. I would search this forum, there are several threads discussing MDLT and I would just ask away with any questions. JustSteve is Manny's voice on the forum as he learned the game from Manny at MCC and he has been more than generous and patient with us all in helping us parse through the book. One thing that does stand out in a lesson, that is impossible to get conveyed fully in book form, is that "mental intention" is essential on every swing.

I guess what I feel like I'm missing is the "big picture".  It's easy with most other swing methods because it's spelled out right at the beginning.  With MDLT, I don't understand what the end product should be like.  Apart from, it seems, removing a great amount of technical thought and committing to, as you say, "mental intention".  My problem with this, so far, is when my swing isn't all together, I don't know where to look from a physical standpoint using the MDLT method.

Perhaps I just haven't read the book enough so I do intend to give it better read throughs this week.

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#56 The Pearl

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 08:14 PM

View PostIamMarkMac, on 11 May 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostThe Pearl, on 11 May 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

View PostIamMarkMac, on 11 May 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

I was intrigued enough by this thread to pick up the book but now my head is swimming with a lot of ideas and questions. I definitely can't ask all the questions here but I was wondering about this: Somehow, I get the feeling I will not be able to fully ingrain the teachings in the book without an actual MDLT session. Would this be right? I will say this though; one of my biggest problems in the last year was my follow through. The "swing with the upper arms" thought cured that almost instantly where all the other swing thoughts I had been told ("hit through the ball", "release past the ball", "turn until your buckle faces the target") failed.
A lesson with MDLT is an amazing experience and I think anybody who is able to should go see him. But realize that there is no ADD ON INSTRUCTION in a lesson. EVERYTHING is in the book. When he teaches, he uses the exact same language and phrasings as in the book. His genius is two-fold, his philosophy of how to swing the golf club AND his philosophy on how to teach it. He is precise, right down to every word and action. You are not going to get 2 or 3 secret tips reserved only for those showing up at MCC. I would search this forum, there are several threads discussing MDLT and I would just ask away with any questions. JustSteve is Manny's voice on the forum as he learned the game from Manny at MCC and he has been more than generous and patient with us all in helping us parse through the book. One thing that does stand out in a lesson, that is impossible to get conveyed fully in book form, is that "mental intention" is essential on every swing.

I guess what I feel like I'm missing is the "big picture".  It's easy with most other swing methods because it's spelled out right at the beginning.  With MDLT, I don't understand what the end product should be like.  Apart from, it seems, removing a great amount of technical thought and committing to, as you say, "mental intention".  My problem with this, so far, is when my swing isn't all together, I don't know where to look from a physical standpoint using the MDLT method.

Perhaps I just haven't read the book enough so I do intend to give it better read throughs this week.

Keep in mind that the most important leap you have to make with MDLT is that the entire focus is on moving the club.  There is no "big picture" physical movement to fall back on.   You use both hands to swing the clubhead in the direction of your right shoulder until the club is over your right shoulder and use the arms (upper arms) to swing the entire club towards the target.   The body movements that spring from this intent are reactions/responses, not moves done on purpose.  

For those of us that learned to swing using a body driven approach, it is a huge transition to undertake.

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#57 lsh

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 05:23 AM

View PostIamMarkMac, on 11 May 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostThe Pearl, on 11 May 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

View PostIamMarkMac, on 11 May 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

I was intrigued enough by this thread to pick up the book but now my head is swimming with a lot of ideas and questions. I definitely can't ask all the questions here but I was wondering about this: Somehow, I get the feeling I will not be able to fully ingrain the teachings in the book without an actual MDLT session. Would this be right? I will say this though; one of my biggest problems in the last year was my follow through. The "swing with the upper arms" thought cured that almost instantly where all the other swing thoughts I had been told ("hit through the ball", "release past the ball", "turn until your buckle faces the target") failed.
A lesson with MDLT is an amazing experience and I think anybody who is able to should go see him. But realize that there is no ADD ON INSTRUCTION in a lesson. EVERYTHING is in the book. When he teaches, he uses the exact same language and phrasings as in the book. His genius is two-fold, his philosophy of how to swing the golf club AND his philosophy on how to teach it. He is precise, right down to every word and action. You are not going to get 2 or 3 secret tips reserved only for those showing up at MCC. I would search this forum, there are several threads discussing MDLT and I would just ask away with any questions. JustSteve is Manny's voice on the forum as he learned the game from Manny at MCC and he has been more than generous and patient with us all in helping us parse through the book. One thing that does stand out in a lesson, that is impossible to get conveyed fully in book form, is that "mental intention" is essential on every swing.

I guess what I feel like I'm missing is the "big picture".  It's easy with most other swing methods because it's spelled out right at the beginning.  With MDLT, I don't understand what the end product should be like.  Apart from, it seems, removing a great amount of technical thought and committing to, as you say, "mental intention".  My problem with this, so far, is when my swing isn't all together, I don't know where to look from a physical standpoint using the MDLT method.

Perhaps I just haven't read the book enough so I do intend to give it better read throughs this week.

I am having some issues also. My copy of the book is gone so I ordered a 2nd copy but do not yet have it. I have some questions about address posture and turn. I am wondering if I am standing too upright and turning too level.
I played pretty well Friday but struggled mightly Sunday. At the end of my round Sunday I came to the conclusion, right or wrong, that I was not turning enough. I remember reading somewhere that you take the club back with your hands and that is what winds up or coils the body from the top down then the concept or intention of begining the forward swing with the upper arms toward the target begins the uncoil from the ground up.
That may be why I am struggling so much to hit consisten shots. I am not coiling and uncoiling which makes it difficult to swing on an arc toward the target. Instead I go out to in and have a multitude of bad shots.
Lesson with Manuel in 13 days will tell me.

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#58 juststeve

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:49 AM

View Postlsh, on 12 May 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

View PostIamMarkMac, on 11 May 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostThe Pearl, on 11 May 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

View PostIamMarkMac, on 11 May 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

I was intrigued enough by this thread to pick up the book but now my head is swimming with a lot of ideas and questions. I definitely can't ask all the questions here but I was wondering about this: Somehow, I get the feeling I will not be able to fully ingrain the teachings in the book without an actual MDLT session. Would this be right? I will say this though; one of my biggest problems in the last year was my follow through. The "swing with the upper arms" thought cured that almost instantly where all the other swing thoughts I had been told ("hit through the ball", "release past the ball", "turn until your buckle faces the target") failed.
A lesson with MDLT is an amazing experience and I think anybody who is able to should go see him. But realize that there is no ADD ON INSTRUCTION in a lesson. EVERYTHING is in the book. When he teaches, he uses the exact same language and phrasings as in the book. His genius is two-fold, his philosophy of how to swing the golf club AND his philosophy on how to teach it. He is precise, right down to every word and action. You are not going to get 2 or 3 secret tips reserved only for those showing up at MCC. I would search this forum, there are several threads discussing MDLT and I would just ask away with any questions. JustSteve is Manny's voice on the forum as he learned the game from Manny at MCC and he has been more than generous and patient with us all in helping us parse through the book. One thing that does stand out in a lesson, that is impossible to get conveyed fully in book form, is that "mental intention" is essential on every swing.

I guess what I feel like I'm missing is the "big picture".  It's easy with most other swing methods because it's spelled out right at the beginning.  With MDLT, I don't understand what the end product should be like.  Apart from, it seems, removing a great amount of technical thought and committing to, as you say, "mental intention".  My problem with this, so far, is when my swing isn't all together, I don't know where to look from a physical standpoint using the MDLT method.

Perhaps I just haven't read the book enough so I do intend to give it better read throughs this week.

I am having some issues also. My copy of the book is gone so I ordered a 2nd copy but do not yet have it. I have some questions about address posture and turn. I am wondering if I am standing too upright and turning too level.
I played pretty well Friday but struggled mightly Sunday. At the end of my round Sunday I came to the conclusion, right or wrong, that I was not turning enough. I remember reading somewhere that you take the club back with your hands and that is what winds up or coils the body from the top down then the concept or intention of begining the forward swing with the upper arms toward the target begins the uncoil from the ground up.
That may be why I am struggling so much to hit consisten shots. I am not coiling and uncoiling which makes it difficult to swing on an arc toward the target. Instead I go out to in and have a multitude of bad shots.
Lesson with Manuel in 13 days will tell me.

Ish:

Focus on swinging the club in an arc around a fixed swing center in the direction of the target.  Don't be fixated on how your body responds. Just swing the club to the target.

Steve

28

#59 juststeve

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:53 AM

View PostIamMarkMac, on 11 May 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostThe Pearl, on 11 May 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

View PostIamMarkMac, on 11 May 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

I was intrigued enough by this thread to pick up the book but now my head is swimming with a lot of ideas and questions. I definitely can't ask all the questions here but I was wondering about this: Somehow, I get the feeling I will not be able to fully ingrain the teachings in the book without an actual MDLT session. Would this be right? I will say this though; one of my biggest problems in the last year was my follow through. The "swing with the upper arms" thought cured that almost instantly where all the other swing thoughts I had been told ("hit through the ball", "release past the ball", "turn until your buckle faces the target") failed.
A lesson with MDLT is an amazing experience and I think anybody who is able to should go see him. But realize that there is no ADD ON INSTRUCTION in a lesson. EVERYTHING is in the book. When he teaches, he uses the exact same language and phrasings as in the book. His genius is two-fold, his philosophy of how to swing the golf club AND his philosophy on how to teach it. He is precise, right down to every word and action. You are not going to get 2 or 3 secret tips reserved only for those showing up at MCC. I would search this forum, there are several threads discussing MDLT and I would just ask away with any questions. JustSteve is Manny's voice on the forum as he learned the game from Manny at MCC and he has been more than generous and patient with us all in helping us parse through the book. One thing that does stand out in a lesson, that is impossible to get conveyed fully in book form, is that "mental intention" is essential on every swing.

I guess what I feel like I'm missing is the "big picture".  It's easy with most other swing methods because it's spelled out right at the beginning.  With MDLT, I don't understand what the end product should be like.  Apart from, it seems, removing a great amount of technical thought and committing to, as you say, "mental intention".  My problem with this, so far, is when my swing isn't all together, I don't know where to look from a physical standpoint using the MDLT method.

Perhaps I just haven't read the book enough so I do intend to give it better read throughs this week.

It is very difficult to coordinate your swing, making it "all together" so long as your concept requires you to move each of several parts of your body intentionally.  That difficulty disappears to the extent you can let the motion of the body be a natural reaction to what the club is doing.  Then all you need to think about is swinging the club in the direction of the target.

Steve

Edited by juststeve, 12 May 2014 - 09:39 AM.


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#60 tm3

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:28 AM

View PostThe Pearl, on 11 May 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

I am not sure what Manuel's answer would be, perhaps Steve will chime in. How are you playing now, what do you shoot, what are your misses, and why does his method appeal to you?   I will steal Manuel's line he will eventually ask you during a lesson, "What are you trying to do?" I guess I would take a common sense approach.  If you are a mid to high handicapper, I would probably try to change the grip.  If I was a single digit player looking to a more simple way to play, I might tinker with it slowly.

You might review the corrections and fixes section in the book.  Some recommend making sure your grip is proper.  Perhaps some might  apply to your common miss.

1 HCP index: 13.8

2 most common misses: pushes and hooks

3 appeal: i am a proponent of geoff mangum's approach to putting as it makes sense from a neurophysiological standpoint, ie give the mind/body a task and let it figure out how to do it.  i would like to find a full swing approach that is similar -- MDLT, and so some extent shawn clement, seem to come close.  i don't believe that an athletic motion is best learned by trying to stack together a series of specific positions into a coordinated move.

4 goal: consistency.  of course i would like to hit the driver 300+ yards but i believe that i would play much better if i could be more consistent off the tee and in the fairway.  i'm not concerned about the short game.  i will say that my greatest enjoyment is from hitting solid shots, even greater enjoyment than what comes from lower scores.

so while it seems that the MDLT method might be perfect for me, i have concerns.  the biggest is that it may not be feasible to try to adopt this method without in person tutelage.  i'm sure that i would not have grasped mangum's putting method as well if i had not spent time with him and just read his book (although, admittedly, his book is not especially well written).  the second biggest is that in the past when i have tried shifting my focus to feeling the clubhead or similar i have played worse -- making a turn and mentally dissociating from what my arms and hands are doing has given better results.

but, if i was not interested and open to trying i of course would not be making these posts .......

i appreciate the input from all of you.


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