Forget the individuals name. He has been attempting to pass the PAT to become a member of the PGA. He has no use of his left arm. The PGA has made some exceptions already, and he has the majority of his 'class' work finished. It is going to come down to passing the PAT. For those of you who have read the article, what are your thoughts and opinions?

I personally think he would be a great asset to the PGA of America, but it requires overlooking a long tradition held within the PGA of America.

Having worked with players with disabilities before, I commend him and back him 100% for membership.

My concern is they won't...

I hope I am wrong...

Maybe the membership can sign a petition?

I too think he should be granted membership into the PGA. These days, playing has become such a small component of the PGA Golf Professional's job; that if he excels at all of the other aspects he should be granted membership. Heck, there are current PGA Golf Professionals that "have" passed the PAT that currently can not break 90; because they might only play a couple of times a month.

He will be a great ambassador for the game of golf and isn't that what it is all about?

Yeah, I've not seen much concern for people with disabilities from the membership.
Having been in the Southwest, Northern Cal, Met, and now the North Texas sections I can say that every section up to the NTPGA has not had any programs designed to help me as an instructor, learn the nuances of teaching people with disabilities the game of golf.
The Texas Scottish Rites Hospital for Children in Dallas has a very good program. I'd highly recommend it for anyone that is interested.
http://www.tsrhc.org/p_community_outreach.cfm
or you can contact Dana Dempsey at the hospital dana.dempsey@tsrh.org

I have read that article and hope he passes. I hope they grant him in. Somebody that has gone through this program and he can't pass the playing part well he has one arm. I would not want to lose somebody in the golf business becuase he has a disablity. The guy may even understand the swing much better and also be an amazing teacher. Yes tradition is tradition but sometimes tradition needs to be broken for cases like this. I back him 100% too. If we need to start a petition I will sign it.

I will send a message to Brian Whitcomb, and see if I can gather any other information on this...

I have not seen the specific article you are referring to but can guess as to the general gist of the argument.

Isn't this like the argument against the PGA player who wanted to use a motorized cart on tour because he had leg problems and medically couldn't walk a course? I never understood the arguments against that guy using a cart...if a board of doctors certifies him unfit to walk a course, special exceptions should be made. Caddies carry bags anyhow.

Same with a person becoming a PGA pro...let a board of doctors certify the disability (no matter how apparent the disability is) and give the guy a waiver or make an exception. The guy could be a great teacher and also run a course or pro shop well...disability not withstanding.

Golf's governing bodies are too 'strict' sometimes for their own good.

I may be in the minority here, but I don't think that he should be granted membership. Don't think I am being insensitive towards people with disabilities, because I am not. Passing the PAT has been a longstanding tradition with in the PGA which is kind of what sets this organization apart from others. Simply and bluntly put, if he was trying out for Georgia Tech as a wide receiver, would people still be upset if he was cut, because his disability prevented him from keeping up with the rest of the team? Again, very sympathetic towards this young mans condition and I hate that his lifelong dream may not become a reality, but I don't think the PGA should let him in.

So, due to the inability to use his left arm, he offers no valuable services as a member of the PGA?

As a member of the PGA, how does our playing ability actually help us perform our day to day jobs?

Outside of being a full time instructor, which I am, what role does the PAT play?

Fun subject, let's keep hearing the opinions roll in...

He does offer valuable services, which is why he should stay in the business, i.e. working with the First Tee, or Boys and Girls Clubs, or Special Olympics children. Do you think that he may better serve the industry working with other people with disabilities setting an example? I personally do think that he could have a significant impact. There is no reason why he can't be in the golf business, I just don't think that he should be in the PGA unless he can meet all requirements necessary to obtain membership.

Standing behind the "tradition" of the PGA is all of bunch of bs; including the PAT. So, whether some director or officer grants this guy speical membership into the PGA would just be a big pr campaign down the road. He may be granted membership into the PGA; but, he will still be 1 of 150 applying for an assistant pro job.

It is questionable whether or not the PGA has the ability to exclude the person based on his disability. The PGA has already set a precedent of providing, albeit with massive apprehension, relief to a disabled golfer....Casey Martin if I recall correctly.

Additionally, I am not sure the PGA can exclude a person based on their disability. This person may qualify as a member of protected class under the Americans with Disabilities Act. I don't think private organizations are exempted from compliance with the ADA.

All in all, this could become some really bad P.R. for the PGA. Not to mention the potential for litigation...you let this guy pay for, take, and pass all written materials for membership knowing he had a disability, then you disqualify him based on his physical condition. I don't think the court would find that very cool.

The PGA and PGA Tour are completly different entities. The PGA Tour let Casey Martin utilize a golf car because of his disability, not the PGA of America.

We have used a formula for allowing females to play a shorter set of tees, I don't think it would take a genius to figure up a fair yardage for him to take his PAT from. Simply granting someone a membership wreaks of PC PR, and I would insist that my accomplishment not be diminished by a token gift of membership. Figure up the yardage, the score, and let him play for it like all of us.

I believe they have made modifications for some his PAT attempts already...

There have been many examples of modifications for PAT venues over the years, as stated in the article...

One gentleman was allowed to play 4 nine hole events over a period of four weeks...

I believe the PGA is being as accomodating as possible, without simply waiving the PAT process...

boy can i smell a law suit

As is evidenced by some other threads here - some CURRENT PGA pro's can't break 80! Does seem a little odd.

As for all of the people who are saying it's a long-time tradition - it's only been around since 1973, I believe. I know to some here that seems like a long time, but golf has been around in the US for over 100 years...

OK, I would love to read this article but I don't have a subscription to Golf World. I guess it is the only one I don't have. Does anyone have a link to the article on the web. I tried their website but couldn't find anything. Or anyone have a copy they would share with me.
I would love to know how close he is to the target score on the PAT.

He's not that close - plays right handed only... Guess his BEST round is 79. His name is Ryan Ely. Says he typically hits driver 225 - handicap has been as low as 15. Graduated PGM program in 1994. Tried PAt in 2000, I think 6100 yard Vanderbilt CC in Naples, FL - 6100 yards - target score was 153 for 36 holes, shot 101 in first round, 2nd round rained out after 9...

Only 20% of the applicants for the apprentice program are successful at passing the PAT...

just a quick summary...


I guess the slippery slope the PGA is on is becasue then other guys may say, "Hey, I've got adult-ADD." or warts, or something less debilitating (was going to type "trivial", but I don't meant that these things are trivial, but in the scope of the discussion - they would seem trivial...)

The PGA should set up a course where he plays at 60% of the yardage and go from there. Meaning he should tee it up from around 4000 yards, for a guy with one arm that would seem fair.

You can make legit arguments on both sides of the coin. But a significantly shorter course would make it fair and he would still have to hole the putts to make it just like everyone else.

As previously mentioned only 20% make it through anyway. Set up a course that accommodates his disability and go from there. I know I would be pulling for him.

I suppose this would be a bad analogy...



Kind of like defining marriage, where do we stop and draw the line?



I hate to see Ryan not get his membership, he would be a great asset...

In this week's GW there is a letter from a PGA Pro about this issue. I agree with the letter and do not think he should be given membership if he can't pass ALL of the requirements. There's plenty he can do (and already does) in golf without being a PGA Pro/member.

I look at a PGA Pro first and foremost as a player...someone who is going to shoot low scores almost every time he plays, and certainly every time he plays his home course. That's what instills confidence in me to go to that individual for advice/lessons about my game. From my understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that's the purpose of the PAT test.

And yes, 79 is a good score and it is better than my best...but that's the best he can do, apparently. IMHO, it doesn't warrant PGA membership.

None of that is meant rude towards him or his disability.

There's another article about the LPGA and how they are bending so many rules to let people into tournaments that they are starting to look bad. It ends with a good statement (that I can't remember) about the PGA Tour not doing this and how much better they look for it. I think this same idea applies to the PGA.

Just my .02. If anyone can find the original article and the two I referenced, it'd be great to put links here so all could read.

Thanks for the input McDavis...I will look at the article today at work, and let you know...



I understand your point of view, and I am divided on this topic...

Not that this young man would do it, but could he sue under the ADA even though the PGA is a "members only" organization?

My imression from the article, he has no intention of taking legal action...



But in today's society, one never knows...

The PGA Tour allows Michelle Wie in to events. It hasn't looked good by doing that....unless you only look at TV ratings.

What becomes of the golf professional, who say, loses a leg or an arm in a motorcycle accident? Is he stripped of his membership because he can no longer play the game at the level expected of, and required to be, a member of the PGA? What does the PGA tell a veteran who before he lost a limb was a scratch golfer and had completed the PGA course work, but hadn't taken his PAT?

Ely may have cause to sue the PGA even though it is a private membership organization. First, you can always sue under ADA to challenge an organization that claims it is exempt. In my opinion, I think the PGA is on shakey ground since it is an organization serving the primary function of providing training and certifications for EMPLOYMENT in the golf industry. If the PGA is not exempt from ADA, the next question becomes...is the ability to play to a arbitrarily set score necessary to demonstrate the ability to perform the ESSENTIAL functions of the day to day work activities of a golf professional?

While Ely himself may not file suit, an entity like the ACLU could file one, or even the federal government if a complaint is made to Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

I would personally be embarrassed to be affiliated with an organization that bars an otherwise qualified individual from membership because the person has a significant life altering physical disability that prevents them from passing a test of little relevance to the major day-to-day work activites.

I have seen quite a few comments about the PGA growing the game of golf. In my mind, the PGA isn't growing the game of golf when it discriminate against a certain class of people. The PGA has a real elitist stigma it needs to overcome.

I agree.

First off, the issue isn't KEEPING PGA membership, it's about getting it. No one should lose that membership due to accidents. They've already earned it.

I don't see this as the PGA excluding anyone, I see it as them enforcing the rules that are in place at this time. Should those rules be amended? Possibly. Should they start bending them to be politically correct? Not in my opinion. I think they are doing the right thing by upholding the rules that are in place.

As far as all the comments about legal action...that's one of the biggest problems this country has today. You don't want to play by the rules, so you sue somebody. You drag their name through the mud, make them look as bad as possible, and try to force their hand. There are other ways to do things. Not sure what all Ryan has tried, but I respect him for NOT turning it ugly.

If they bend the rules for him, what's to stop me from saying "Hey, I aced every part of your requirements except the PAT. I know I shoot 110 from the ladies tees, but if you're going to allow Ryan in, why can't you allow me in? I think I'll get a lawyer, call the EEOC, call the newspapers, have some press conferences, and give you more bad publicity. That's how I'll become a PGA Pro!"

I would not oppose the rules being changed, but I am against them being bent.

smarshall, none of this is intended as rude or as a personal attack on you. It's just my .02.

smarshal75, all good points that you present and they are most cetainly appreciated. Now I am going to play the devil's advocate. If I have an I.Q. of just below 50 and am considered legally retarted and I score a 450 on the SAT, does Harvard let me in? Maybe not the best choice of example, but you get my point. If the do let Ryan in where does it stop? The way the world is today once you make provisions for one person to get in under special exemptions you tend to open yourself up to a whole bunch of issues. I do believe that this young man would truely be a tremendous asset to the PGA of America; however, if he can't make the requirements that the PGA has made special provisions specifically for him, do you honestly think that he should be granted membership? If you do feel that way, how do you think that other PGA professionals would feel who have worked hard to obtain membership? Just a few ideas and I'm interested to hear feedback.

Obviously we are pretty passionate in our positions on this issue. Which is good! It elicits many different perspectives. But I am going to keep coming hard at you guys

In response to McDavis's comments regarding law suits. Seeking an interpretation or relief from the courts is a Constitutional right for everyone. If someone chooses to file a law suit it should not be considered trying to skirt the rules, but in fact having them clarified or enforced. Malicious or vexatious litigants, or other people who abuse the court, get there balls busted eventually. The court doesn't take lightly to those trying to take advantage of the system.

As to assertions that allowing Mr. Ely a pass on the PAT would start a waterfall of other requests for relief, it could happen, but most erroneous claims could be countered if you apply the principles of the ADA, especially mental deficiencies. In Mr. Ely's situation he is physically disabled, not mentally disabled. He has demonstrated the cognitive ability, via passing the PGA management courses, to perform the essential functions of running a golf operation. The PGA management courses and associated exams appear to be valid predictors of the knowledge, skills, and abilities needed to run a golf shop. On its face, the PAT does not appear to be valid predictor of how well a person will perform the functions of running a golf shop since it focuses on a physical ability that has little relevance to running a golf shop. That said, denying a physically disabled person membership based on physical test that has little relevance to the major functions of running a golf shop appears discriminatory. In this situation, an exemption from the PAT would be a reasonable accommodation for Mr. Ely since he has demonstrated he can perform the job requirements of a golf professional. If a mentally handicap person could not pass the PGA management exams they could be barred from entry since they have not demonstrated the ability to perform the essential functions of required in the golf profession.

In the example used by Ryanpgm, the courts would not be likely to force a school to accept someone with a severe mental disability. Why? The SAT has been proven to be a valid measure of the cognitive ability to perform at an academic level that is necessary to pass college level courses. Thus, a university can exclude those who do not meet a certain test level.

In any event Mr. Ely is in a tough situation, not only is he missing an arm, but should he file a lawsuit he would be blacklisted in the golf industry, whether he prevailed or not. He probably will not file an action for this reason alone. I am interested to hear from the PGA members if they would hire Mr. Ely as a head pro without PGA membership, bearing in mind he passed all PGA course requirements and is otherwise qualified by experience.

I would also ask how passing the PAT, other than being a requirement to achieve membership, correlates or predicts the cognitive ability to perform the essential tasks of running a golf shop (e.g., managing a play sheet, reconciling daily/monthly receipts, merchandising, human resources management, club fitting/maintenance, tournament bookings/mgmt., and so on)?

I don't see why other members of the PGA would feel slighted if a reasonable accommodation were granted to Mr. Ely. He has worked just as hard as any other member in passing the PGA course work. He has probably also worked much harder on his game. The guy broke eighty with one arm...damn near 8 out of 10 fully functioning golfers will never break 90 in their lifetime.

In the end, I would rather hire an employee with a physical disability that can run the golf shop, than the arrogant guy who thinks he has to much game to be working in club house.

As an aside, golf professionals, as generalists in many disciplines of business (e.g., human resources management), should have a basic understanding of ADA requirements and other equal employment opportunity statutes, especially if you are involved in the hiring, firing, or otherwise supervise employees. Don't rely on the HR Department. What you say or do in an interview, during a termination/promotion, or other management activity could have a significant impact on you and your club.

Knowing the basic labor laws, i.e. OSHA requirements, ADA, EEOC, Child labor issues, etc.. are basic requirements that all PGA members must pass in order to obtain membership. As earlier stated, the Harvard example was not the best, but the point still got across. The PGA has made special exemptions for this young man in an effort to assist him in obtaining membership. He has failed, numerous times in his attempts. There is no limit to the number of times one can attempt the PAT, with that being said he has not been denied membership into the PGA, he just hasn't made the requirements. It is simple, if he passes he is in. I graduated from a PGA / PGM University and there are at least 4 people that I can think of who will never be members of the PGA, who would make outstanding ambassadors of the game, that will never have the opportunity as being labeled, PGA Professional. The PAT was implemented for a reason and it needs to remain that way. In my opinion it needs to be tougher. Would I hire a him as a head professional without a PGA Membership, no. Does this hamper his dreams/career, yes. This is a tough situation that will not be resolved without someone being offended and/or hurt. Let's keep this topic going.

IMO Ryan you answered your own question.
You said you feel he would be an asset to our organization.

I've worked hard to get to my position and I know you probably feel the same way. If Ryan Ely is going to be an assest to my organization - I want him in it. It remains to be seen if he will be an asset, I've never spoken to him, nor do I personally know anyone who has.

Bottom line for me is - if he's going to strengthen my organization, then I'm for him.

As mentioned earlier - what is a reasonable score for a player with one arm?

Does he use a prosthetic?

There is no way we as a membership can expect someone who is handicapped to play at the level of someone who is not. If you don't believe me, try just hitting balls from a wheelchair... and remember you are far stronger than the individual that is confined to the chair.

Allow the membership to vote.

That would be fine Mike, but as of right now, I know little about Ryan Ely.

As it stands, I only know that he has not passed his PAT, but seems otherwise qualified. For me to vote him in, IMO he would have to present his case to the membership.

I did find ou a bit about him.
http://www2.cybergolf.com/sites/courses/ha...5&page=5513

I understand there is tradition at stake here. I also understand the concerns about the prestige associated with PGA membership being diminished by making an exception. However, I still don't understand what purpose the PAT serves, other than a physical barrier to entry to PGA membership.

Before we go to arguments that a professional has to be able to play the game to teach the game, I must point out there are many great coaches who have never excelled in the sport in which they coach. Take for instance, Bill Walsh. He was never an accomplished football player, yet he is one of the greatest coaches in football. There are many other examples.

I think the PGA is smart enough to develop a test or some other form of assessment that takes into consideration people with life limiting disabilities, such as an amputee or paraplegic. Disabled people deserve the opportunity to achieve the same levels of success as people who are fully functioning.

Personally, if my I am taking lessons from a PGA Professional, I could care less what he shoots. I am interested in knowledge of the golf swing, how good/quick his eye is at spotting problems in my swing, effective communication of what the corrections are, and the ability and wisdom to help me make the necessary chages to my swing that will make it more technically sound.

I have taken lessons where I have been immensely impressed with the pro's knowledge AND abilty to communicate it, and I have taken lessons that were flat out a waste of time.

I'll go with a pro who can't break 90 due to a disability, but can help me improve over a guy who routinely shoots 63, but dosen't give a crap about my game or is just a very poor instructor anyday.

Please let's not jump to conclusions that a Professional who can play "does not care" or can't fix your golf swing. There are not many if any of the top teaching professionals in the country that do not or have not been able to play a respectable round. Playing and Teaching are the backbone of the PGA and many of us work hard to maintain our games and those of our students. Although I believe we should set parameters for calculating a yardage that would constitute a fair test for this young man, I think it is absurd to suggest that the PAT be waived for anyone. I hear a lot of people complain they are meeting Professionals that do not "care" about their games. Do this: Do Not Support their facility, because there are plenty of us who do care. Why should a physical handicap to pass the PAT be waived and where would we draw the line? No need for rude replies as I have a friend who plays that has one arm and I have no doubt could pass the PAT from the appropriate yardage. He routinely breaks 80 from the back tees and we play some challenging golf courses.

Then why does the PGA require the PAT?

The foundation of our organization was to grow the game through playing and teaching. As with any Professional Organization there will be requirements for membership. We have no responsibility to make it easier for anyone to become a member, and in fact, it would diminish our association and the respect we garner. If anything the target score for the PAT should be lowered, not raised. Many professionals may feel that this would eliminate many from joining our membership. The number of members competing for the number of jobs available, just proves we have made it to easy to attain membership status. If they do not feel it is important to keep their games up to an acceptable level, I would suggest becoming club managers. Nobody cares is they can play! Back to the subject of the young man. Calculate a fair yardage based upon his disability. If he passes, welcome to the PGA of America. If not, I wish him the best.

RNF, sorry did not specify what I meant by asset. Provided he can pass the PAT he will be a valuable member of the organization; however, my opinion will change if he is granted immediate membership priviledges.

"The Interests of the PGA, USGA, and the Game of Golf
The decision in favor of Martin is in the best interests of the PGA,
the USGA, and the game of golf as a whole. Golf, unlike other sports,
has always carried a certain stigma as a game for white, upper-class
males. The expense and image as a game for the privileged, has
harmed its popularity in the past. However, other sports praise their
diversity as young athletes from all races and cultures have overcome
the odds, often going from poor to rich. Many of the greatest heroes in
sports are perceived as such, not necessarily for their athletic ability, but
because of their diversity. The average American can more easily
identify with these diverse athletes than they can with the many PGA
players coming from upper-class families and communities.197
A clear example is Tiger Woods, who has drawn attention and
attraction to the game of golf in an astounding and unprecedented
fashion. Even more than his success and ability, his diversity has
inspired many children and adults, from all ethnic backgrounds, to
follow and take up the game of golf. This has increased the popularity,
media attention, and advertising of the PGA and USGA more than
ever. It is in this context that allowing Casey Martin and Ford Olinger,
golfers who are different from most people because of their disabilities,
to play golf would benefit the PGA, USGA and the game of golf itself.
They are inspirational success stories—golfers who have overcome their
disabilities to compete with the best in the world. This is precisely what
brought so much media attention to these cases in the first place,
especially the Martin case. They are the type of people the public wants
to see; and they, like Tiger Woods, will help the PGA and USGA shed
the game’s for-privileged-only reputation, and make it just as enticing
and popular as other sports."

...U.S. Supreme Court Ruling; PGA Tour, Inc. v. Martin & Olinger v. USGA

I guess excluding an otherwise qualified, but disabled person, by virtue of a test that has little to no bearing on the ability to perform the duties of golf professional, is growing the game of golf.

There is no way the PAT should be waived. Calculate a fair yardage and make him earn it like everybody else.

Even in public schools, a special ed kid has to EARN his/her grade, kids with disabilities are given nothing except the OPPORTUNITY to achieve. They set up requirements that they can perform to and are evaluated based on that.

The same should be true for this young man. There are many one armed golfers out there who are really good.

In whatever I've wanted to do I have had a "I will not be denied" attitude. To achieve real success in life no matter what that is the attitude you need. The guy has broken 80, so I have no doubt that if he worked at it he would have no problem passing the PAT at a fair yardage.