I had a T shot where the ball hooked left on to the rough side of the green, it then proceeded to roll out of bounds in to someones backyard.

Can I take a drop near where it went out of bounds, or do I MUST re tee and shoot from the Tee Box.

You have to go back to where your prior shot was played from.

you should have hit a provisional. OB is stroke + distance. you can't play it from where the ball went out. From the tee, you are lying 2.

Yup, OB is stroke and distance.

Rule 27-1b:

b. Ball Out of Bounds

If a ball is out of bounds, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).

The rule has been stated...I know way too many people that do not adhere to this rule or that of a lost ball.

I will say in the lost ball situation (in the rough, but cannot be found)...it can be tough on a crowded Sat/Sun morning to walk all the way back to the tee box to re-tee.

It can be just as tough playing your fourth out of a bunker.

But why, why, why don't people play provisionals?

Just so you know: if you know it's OB...you don't get to hit a provisional. I mean, it's effectively the same thing in that particular case (same outcome, stroke-wise), but it's important to understand the difference.

Previous posters are correct. Stroke and distance is the rule. But in a casual round, if you are not sure if your ball is OB/lost until you get walk up...if you are holding people up at the tee, it can be pretty obnoxious to walk all the way back to your last shot position. If it's looking packed, it's not a bad idea to formulate a rule amongst your group, before you start the round, to avoid that scenario. We typically say: take 3 strokes (one for your swing, one for OB/lost, and one for the distance) and drop where it went OB (or was last seen for lost ball). Pretty fair that way, and shouldn't even screw up a handicap too much (unless you're shooting OB all day, in which case you probably aren't keeping one). Just know that you're not playing by the official rules -- technically there is no option (e.g. adding strokes) to avoid the distance part of the rule.

I feel the preceding should only be used when you are surprised to find your ball OB or lost, even in a casual round. If you know it's gone before you start walking, shoot from the same place, i.e. take stroke and distance. And of course, if things are backed up in front of you as well as behind, you have no excuse to fudge the distance penalty.

Yes, the rule is stroke and distance. There is no exception - if you want to put a ball down where the original shot went out of bounds, read carefully.


If you choose to play from where the ball went out of bounds, you are playing from the wrong place. This is a two stroke penalty. This is additional to your stroke and distance penalty, not instead of.

When you drop your ball in the wrong place, you are hitting four. When you hole out, add two strokes. So if your tee shot went OB, you drop a ball and hit your fourth. Suppose that fourth shot goes on the green, you two putt, and then add two more strokes for playing from the wrong place, making an 8.

Before anyone says I'm making this up, or lying, go look it up. You will see that this is correct, with one important addition.

If one does this in a tournament, you will likely be found in serious breach of the rules, and be DQ'd. If this is not a tournament, and there is no tournament committee, then it is a matter of discussion whether you committed a serious breach of the rules or not. Considering your description of your usual partners, I suspect they will say that this is not.

Whether you apply ESC to this hole, or put down an 8X, for posting a handicap, is something I don't know. I don't know any handicap chairmen who have answered that. I would love for one to take a shot at it.

Your 3-stroke convention was a little shy. A four stroke penalty is within the rules.

The 3 stroke convention is more appropriate than 4 during a casual round.

Hmmm, I remember this discussion, it turned ugly a couple of years ago.

The rule hasn't changed.

===========================

27-1/3 Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played

Q. A player, unable to find his ball, drops another ball in the area where his original ball was lost and plays that ball. What is the ruling?

A. In match play, the player loses the hole — Rule 20-7b.

In stroke play, the player incurs the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. If the breach was a serious one, he must rectify the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c; otherwise, he is disqualified.

===========================

One thing we never determined was when would it NOT be a serious breach. I don't think we were able to come up with a circumstance that wasn't a serious breach, but there must be something...

Kevin

I need to get ahold of a copy of your rules!

Kevin

Obviously, you missed the whole point. We know that dropping a ball near outbounds isn't correct but playing a casual round a 3 stroke penalty is more appropriate then 4 in my eyes. I play by the rules so I can give you a copy of that if needed (2008 version) but I agree with the other poster's method vice yours. Now you may resume to your "black and white" thinking.

I'm sorry, I was quoting from the USGA Rules of Golf. I'm not sure what game you are playing.

BTW, the USGA writes mostly in black and white to save money on color printing.

Kevin

As one example of what I believe to be a non-serious breach, if a player moves his/her mark on a green to the side by a club head to aid a fellow competitor, and forgets to move the mark back before putting, he/she suffers the penalty for hitting from a wrong place, but I don't believe this rises to the level of a serious enough breach to be disqualified. Similarly, if you lightly bump your ball and cause it to move in the fairway while grounding your club, and take the penalty for that action but forget to replace the ball the modest distance yo moved it, you would also suffer the additional penalty for hitting from the wrong place, but in my opinion shouldn't be disqualified.

I should add that I've never seen either of these examples play out in a PGA tournament, but they seem to me to justly meet whatever criteria might be involved in a non-serious breach, since in neither case would it be likely that the player would gain a significant advantage by playing from the wrong place. I suspect that playing from the wrong tee would also qualify as a non-serious breach as long as the wrong tee was further away from the hole than the correct tee. I would suspect that playing from a closer tee, particularly a much closer tee, would warrant disqualification.

(If anybody has seen a rules offical make any of the above judgements I'd be pleased to hear about it. Here I simply hoped to provide Kevin with some food for thought and perhaps stimulate further discussion.)

Great examples Sawgrass, but I was speaking about this threads topic.

You hit it OB, or have a lost ball, you just throw one down where you think it went out or was lost. When is that not a serious breach?

Kevin

Oh, yeah, sorry. Now I understand what you had clearly stated earlier. And on that topic I have absolutely nothing to offer -- that's a real head-scratcher! Maybe it's a serious breach if you do it, but not if I do it!

In any case I'm still curious as to whether my previously stated theory about playing from the wrong place on a green or the like is legitimate. But perhaps that's for another thread . . .

Imagine, the players ball from the tee would ricochet from a tree, come back and go out of bounds some 5 or 10 yards from the tee box.
If the player would drop there - probably in the rough - there would be no serious breach.

He would incur two PS for the breach of rule 27-1 and have his fourth shot fom there.

greenkeeper

Sawgrass,

I believe your examples are 100% right on, exactly what the "serious breach" stuff takes into consideration. In fact, I believe both are in the decisions or the basic rule, look under ball moved by player...

Sorry my friend, I would look it up myself, but I'm late for work and am running a shotgun at my club. No time right now...

Kevin

green-keeper, great example, and makes a lot of sense. That may be exactly the answer I was looking for.

Thanks,
Kevin

Kevin, I did find this:

Rule 20-7
Serious Breach of Playing from the Wrong Place
Q. What constitutes a serious breach of playing from the wrong place?
A. A serious breach has occurred if the player has gained a significant advantage as a result of playing from a wrong place. (Note 1 to Rule 20-7c)

and this:


20-7c/3 Ball Believed to Be Lost in Bunker; Competitor Drops Another Ball in Bunker and Plays It; Original
Ball Then Found Outside Bunker

Q. In stroke play, A played a long shot to the green and the ball appeared to have come to rest in a bunker beside the green. The ball was not found in the bunker. A dropped a ball in the bunker and played it onto the green. A then discovered his original ball behind the green. What is the ruling?

A. When A dropped and played another ball in the bunker, it became the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance and the original ball was lost — see Definition of "Lost Ball."

Since the place where the ball was dropped was well in advance of the spot from which the original ball was last played, A was guilty of a serious breach of the relevant Rule (Rule 27-1) in failing to go back to that spot. He should have been disqualified unless he rectified the breach as prescribed in Rule 20-7c, in which case he would incur an additional penalty of two strokes.


Both of which seem to answer my question. Hey, have a good day. (I'm pretty sure I wish I worked at a golf course . . . I know that "the grass is always greener", but at a golf course the grass really is greener. )

Sawgrass,

Beautiful, EXACTLY what we needed. Thank you.

The grass is greener, but I don't get on it very often...

Oh well, you have a great day as well!

Kevin

Your statement is better if read that you don't NEED to hit a provisional. However, you are going to have to hit one anyway, why not declare it a provisional in the off chance it does end up in bounds.

I once played with a guy that hit a big slice that soared way off the course, hit the roof of a house and bounced back in bounds... TWICE..... ON THE SAME HOLE!!

I'm with you on this one. Costs you nothing to declare it a provisional, and if one out of twenty times you end up finding your ball, which took an odd bounce back in bounds, you've saved yourself the equivalent of two strokes. (I suspect that my opinion here is augmented by my ever-decreasing eyesight.)

wow. i guess even a simple question regarding rules can be argued over. amazing. :clappinghands:

It is funny. These "arguments" over the rules remind me of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHEHA3-9b9k

Here is my speculation why a provisional isn't played in some lost ball situations. Generally speaking when someone hits their ball in the rough (and sees it land), it's expected to be found. It's not in the fairway, but it should be salvagable. There are those rare occasions when a player hits it in the rough and for whatever reason, it's just not easy to find (sunk to the bottom, took an unseen bounce, covered by leaves, etc, etc) and after a short time searching, the ball should be declared "lost". Unfortunately, the right thing to do after your failed search would be to walk back to the tee box (where you likely have the next group waiting to tee off) and hit another tee shot. Again, not exactly ideal conditions to re-tee...

Now, I totally agree that a provisional should be played if the ball is thought to be out-of-bounds or has a higher probablity to be lost (hit into a group of trees or is gone out of sight), but if a player hits a provisional every time he/she hits it in the rough...he/she would likely be called out by other groups for hitting (unnecessary and excessive) additional shots per hole.

Who is going to know to play a provisional just because their ball rolled a couple of yards into the rough?

Plus, it's a scientific fact that actually playing a provisional reduces your chances of finding your original ball by 32.87%. And if your provisional is also a stinker, the chance of finding your original ball now goes down to 3.05%. Sorry, but that's science talking, and you can't do anything about it.

And it has been proved that if you don't declare a provisional but just play another, your original will be found 93.7% of the time. And 57.1% of the time it will be with a perfect lie. Some say 56.3% but that depends on which club you used.